Re: [OSM-talk] Motorways and Motorway_link
In your letter dated Sun, 05 Oct 2008 00:13:30 -0700 you wrote: >Philip Homburg wrote: >> In .nl it is common to place warning signs for cyclists and >> pedestrians when a piece of road leads only to a motorway. But if you >> really want to, you can walk to the motorway sign. > >In the US, I knew of one motorway_link that had (while I was living >there - it may have changed) a sign that stated 'no pedestrians allowed' >just below a sign for 'bus stop'. Must have been a drive-in bus stop :-) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Motorways and Motorway_link
In your letter dated Sat, 4 Oct 2008 23:41:03 +0100 you wrote: >2008/10/4 Philip Homburg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > >> That strikes me as a bad idea. If you use that kind of tagging with a >> device that displays the current speed limit in effect than you get the >> very confusing situation that the actual situation differs from the map *by >> design*. > >On the contrary. I map the facts. Occasionally, signage diverges from >those facts. > >Sure, but in Ireland (and UK) the correct placement of the motorway >sign is the point of divergence of the standard road network. So where >you have two on-the-ground facts at odds with each other like this, >you need to make a judgement, as you do, for instance, when the street >name signs at either end of the street differ in spelling. I don't know about Ireland and the UK, but in .nl the actual position of the sign is what counts. Not what any government body intends to do. So in .nl, if I would act according to what you propose (i.e. speed up to motor way speeds at the point of divergence of the standard road network) then I might lose my drivers licence (that the would be driving 120 km/h on a 50 km/h road, in which case you can immediately hand your licence over to the police). But then again, if the Irish law says that the sign has to be be placed at the point of divergence of the standard road network, and you can get away with that argument in a court of law, then it may make sense to tag the roads accordingly. In that case, we would just have to have different conventions for tagging in different countries. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Motorways and Motorway_link
Philip Homburg wrote: > In .nl it is common to place warning signs for cyclists and > pedestrians when a piece of road leads only to a motorway. But if you > really want to, you can walk to the motorway sign. In the US, I knew of one motorway_link that had (while I was living there - it may have changed) a sign that stated 'no pedestrians allowed' just below a sign for 'bus stop'. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Motorways and Motorway_link
2008/10/4 Philip Homburg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > That strikes me as a bad idea. If you use that kind of tagging with a > device that displays the current speed limit in effect than you get the > very confusing situation that the actual situation differs from the map *by > design*. On the contrary. I map the facts. Occasionally, signage diverges from those facts. > In .nl it is common to place warning signs for cyclists and pedestrians when > a piece of road leads only to a motorway. But if you really want to, you can > walk to the motorway sign. Sure, but in Ireland (and UK) the correct placement of the motorway sign is the point of divergence of the standard road network. So where you have two on-the-ground facts at odds with each other like this, you need to make a judgement, as you do, for instance, when the street name signs at either end of the street differ in spelling. Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Motorways and Motorway_link
In your letter dated Sat, 4 Oct 2008 15:33:43 +0100 you wrote: >My personal practice is to ignore the implication of badly placed >signs and apply a motorway or motorway_link tag from the point of last >escape. This provides the most useful view of the on-the-ground facts >and should also reflect the underlying legislation for the road. That strikes me as a bad idea. If you use that kind of tagging with a device that displays the current speed limit in effect than you get the very confusing situation that the actual situation differs from the map *by design*. In .nl it is common to place warning signs for cyclists and pedestrians when a piece of road leads only to a motorway. But if you really want to, you can walk to the motorway sign. Any kind of routing software (in bike or walk mode) will of course ignore these kinds of deadends anyhow. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Motorways and Motorway_link
Dermot McNally wrote: > My personal practice is to ignore the implication of badly placed > signs and apply a motorway or motorway_link tag from the point of last > escape. This provides the most useful view of the on-the-ground facts > and should also reflect the underlying legislation for the road. I think the only 'nit' I was 'picking' was the implication that a stretch of single carriage way road approaching the motorway should be tagged motorway. I think it's fairly obvious that these sections are simply motorway_link elements. The signage and other indications have caused drivers problems in the past which is one reason - as I indicated earlier - most of the approaches around here now have central divides in place, so form two carriageways even if it is one road surface? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Motorways and Motorway_link
2008/10/3 Lester Caine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > My comment about the speed limit was that the 60 applies ( or even less if a > local limit applies on the approaching roads! ) UP TO the start of motorway > sign and some of these link roads that is simply not at the 'start' of the > road. At some point, if correct speed indication is to be provided for route > planning, then the position of the actual start point is as important as > placing a change of speed limit at the correct point? Are we not splitting hairs here? Certainly, the instruction to a learner driver is that the chopsticks sign indicates the start of motorway regulations, including any implied speed limit. Likewise, the standard signing practice is to place these signs at the commencement of any road that leads inescapably to the motorway. Our tagging practice is to reflect this "motorway zone" through use of the motorway or motorway_link tags. So far so good. If I'm reading you right, you're describing situations where the chopsticks sign appears some distance past the point of last escape. That happens from time to time, and is simply a case of the sign being wrongly placed. This is particularly common in Ireland, where there's huge variation in the placement of the sign, including some recent cases where the sign has been practically at the merge point with the mainline. My personal practice is to ignore the implication of badly placed signs and apply a motorway or motorway_link tag from the point of last escape. This provides the most useful view of the on-the-ground facts and should also reflect the underlying legislation for the road. Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Motorways and Motorway_link
Richard Bullock wrote: >> I stand corrected on the two direction sections BUT the examples you give >> ARE >> motorway_links rather than motorway. Most of the links like this that I >> frequent have now been divided with a barrier. And a word of warning the >> 'Maximum speed' for a single carriageway road in the UK is 60 MPH. This >> applies to these links up to the 'start of motorway' sign which may not be >> actually at the end of the link - I've seen traffic cops with speed guns >> on a >> couple of roads that merge into the motorway ;) >> > But motorway_link has usually been used to tag sliproads. These aren't > sliproads - it's the mainline of the motorway. > http://pathetic.org.uk/current/a601m/photos/images/Dsc00055_jpg.jpg > > The start of motorway sign is at the end of the link where it meets the > B-road in the case of the A601(M) - and the end nearest the Walton Summit > Industrial Estate in the other example. > No argument with that. Except that These roads LINK the minor roads with the Main route of the motorway. They do not FORM the main route of the motorway since you still have to merge with the main traffic flow on the through route. > The 60mph limit for cars on single carriageways do not apply to "special > roads" - which is the legal term for motorways (and one or two other bits of > road like the A55 at Conwy - where you'll notice there are "70"mph signs > rather than the national speed limit sign). Instead, the "Motorways Traffic > (Speed Limit) Regulations 1974" apply to all motorways - defining the limit > to be 70mph for cars - regardless of whether it is single or dual > carriageway. My comment about the speed limit was that the 60 applies ( or even less if a local limit applies on the approaching roads! ) UP TO the start of motorway sign and some of these link roads that is simply not at the 'start' of the road. At some point, if correct speed indication is to be provided for route planning, then the position of the actual start point is as important as placing a change of speed limit at the correct point? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Motorways and Motorway_link
> I stand corrected on the two direction sections BUT the examples you give > ARE > motorway_links rather than motorway. Most of the links like this that I > frequent have now been divided with a barrier. And a word of warning the > 'Maximum speed' for a single carriageway road in the UK is 60 MPH. This > applies to these links up to the 'start of motorway' sign which may not be > actually at the end of the link - I've seen traffic cops with speed guns > on a > couple of roads that merge into the motorway ;) > But motorway_link has usually been used to tag sliproads. These aren't sliproads - it's the mainline of the motorway. http://pathetic.org.uk/current/a601m/photos/images/Dsc00055_jpg.jpg The start of motorway sign is at the end of the link where it meets the B-road in the case of the A601(M) - and the end nearest the Walton Summit Industrial Estate in the other example. The 60mph limit for cars on single carriageways do not apply to "special roads" - which is the legal term for motorways (and one or two other bits of road like the A55 at Conwy - where you'll notice there are "70"mph signs rather than the national speed limit sign). Instead, the "Motorways Traffic (Speed Limit) Regulations 1974" apply to all motorways - defining the limit to be 70mph for cars - regardless of whether it is single or dual carriageway. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Motorways and Motorway_link
Richard Bullock wrote: >> (Trim the crap and return to sanity ;) ) >> The definition in the UK would mean that motorway and motorway_link ARE >> always >> one way and anything that needed to be two way would not be flagged as >> 'motorway' but no doubt parallels in other countries are not quite so >> clear cut? >> Perhaps the OSM definition of motorway should include the restriction of a >> single direction carriageway and move anything else to 'trunk'? >> > The UK definition is any road defined as a motorway. Anything beyond > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Zeichen_330.svg this sign is a motorway. > > In the UK we even have single-carriageway sections of motorway. > > e.g. > http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.71933&lon=-2.63209&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF > > here > > It's not a sliproad - it's really single carriageway - and it has > blue-backed motorway signs. It has all of the usual motorway regulations > applying - no cycles, no pedestrians, no learners - you can drive a car > legally at 70mph on it (but given the length of it, it's only easy to do so > in the downhill direction with most cars) etc. > > There's another one here - part of the A601(M) > http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.12654&lon=-2.74652&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF > > These should be motorways on OSM - they are in reality. Personally, I tag > motorways and motorway_links with oneway=yes if they are oneway. That way we > don't go making any false assumptions. I stand corrected on the two direction sections BUT the examples you give ARE motorway_links rather than motorway. Most of the links like this that I frequent have now been divided with a barrier. And a word of warning the 'Maximum speed' for a single carriageway road in the UK is 60 MPH. This applies to these links up to the 'start of motorway' sign which may not be actually at the end of the link - I've seen traffic cops with speed guns on a couple of roads that merge into the motorway ;) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Motorways and Motorway_link
> > (Trim the crap and return to sanity ;) ) > The definition in the UK would mean that motorway and motorway_link ARE > always > one way and anything that needed to be two way would not be flagged as > 'motorway' but no doubt parallels in other countries are not quite so > clear cut? > Perhaps the OSM definition of motorway should include the restriction of a > single direction carriageway and move anything else to 'trunk'? > The UK definition is any road defined as a motorway. Anything beyond http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Zeichen_330.svg this sign is a motorway. In the UK we even have single-carriageway sections of motorway. e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.71933&lon=-2.63209&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF here It's not a sliproad - it's really single carriageway - and it has blue-backed motorway signs. It has all of the usual motorway regulations applying - no cycles, no pedestrians, no learners - you can drive a car legally at 70mph on it (but given the length of it, it's only easy to do so in the downhill direction with most cars) etc. There's another one here - part of the A601(M) http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.12654&lon=-2.74652&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF These should be motorways on OSM - they are in reality. Personally, I tag motorways and motorway_links with oneway=yes if they are oneway. That way we don't go making any false assumptions. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
