Re: [OSM-talk] Names for Fiji

[Rafael Avila Coya]

Bula:

I've been in Fiji 8 times, quite a number.

English is equally official together with Fijian and Hindi. It's in
their Constitution.

Therefore, I don't see the controversy.

Most place names are Fijian names (Hindi ethnic people came to Fiji on
the times of British colonization). Fijian is written with latin letters.

The examples given by Jean-Guilhem are representative of Fijian
writting, that should be followed. The old topo maps names aren't
written following the Fijian writting conventions, but the pure English.
You can add as old_name:en=* if you like, but I would add old_name better.

Have a nice weekend,

Rafael.

On 26/02/16 10:16, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 
> 2016-02-26 10:05 GMT+01:00 Jean-Guilhem Cailton  >:
> 
> > are these names English or fiji or hindi?
> >
> > cheers
> > Martin
> >
> 
> They are "name" found in reports from Fijian officials or medias - that
> apparently use English, an official language in Fiji (I haven't seen
> Fijian news reports in other languages - yet) - and often found in the
> "name" tag in OSM in Fiji. And in 1944 US topo maps for "old_name".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find it problematic to make remote edits based on foreign maps and add
> names in a foreign language as main names, although because of
> colonization this foreign language is apparently used as lingua franca.
> I see this as kind of ungoing colonization, where I'd actually expect
> people use names in their first language to refer to the places they
> live. From a quick internet search it appears that English isn't the
> first language for a vast majority of people living in Fiji. My
> suggestion is to use the tags name:en and old_name:en for names and old
> names in English.
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Names for Fiji

[Richard]

On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 08:49:39AM +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> Am 26.02.2016 um 07:08 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny :
> 
> >> Note that names currently in use are often a simplified form of these
> >> "old" names, and that it is straightforward to recognize current names
> >> in old names.
> >> 
> >> For example, on Koro Island, here is a list of correspondences old
> >> name
> >> - current name:
> >> Kande - Kade
> >> Nambuna - Nabuna
> >> Nangaindamu - Naqaidamu
> >> Sinuvatha - Sinuvaca
> >> Namathu - Namacu
> >> Mundu - Mudu
> 
> 
> are these names English or fiji or hindi?

it is close to irrelevant what language they are. Those are different
transcriptions which may have spelling errors/oddities but generaly 
reflect the localy used names. Errors can be corrected anytime when 
a better spelling becomes known.

When using antiquated topographic maps I would sure add a note where 
that data comes from.

Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Names for Fiji

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 26.02.2016 um 13:23 schrieb Jean-Guilhem Cailton :
> 
> Maybe you'll agree that a geographical database with names for villages, even 
> in what you consider to be "English", can be more useful than one without - 
> which is the current situation in many parts of Fiji?


yes, I do agree, I just say if you're not on the ground (can't verify if 
they're the local default name), you should put them under name:en

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Names for Fiji

[Jean-Guilhem Cailton]

Le 26/02/2016 12:26, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
>
> 2016-02-26 12:09 GMT+01:00 Jean-Guilhem Cailton  >:
>
> I might agree with your political preoccupation. However, I don't
> think
> that this crisis is the right time to change established OSM practice
> for Fiji.
>
>
>
> acting like this will just establish this questionable practise more
> and more, and next time someone raises the issue it will be even
> harder to discuss alternatives, "because it has always been done like
> this and is very established". If you don't agree with adding "en" to
> the key for English names, please at least add Fijian and Hindi names
> with the same priority (where they exist), i.e. also in the general
> name tag like it is done in all multilingual areas.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin

Martin, you are very welcome to contribute to the naming effort, for
example if you are aware of usable sources for Fijian and Hindi names.

Maybe you'll agree that a geographical database with names for villages,
even in what you consider to be "English", can be more useful than one
without - which is the current situation in many parts of Fiji?

Best regards,

Jean-Guilhem



-- 
"On ne m’ôtera pas de l’idée que, pendant la dernière guerre mondiale,
de nombreux juifs ont eu une attitude carrément hostile à l’égard du
régime nazi." Pierre Desproges
"I won't be deprived of the idea that, during the last world war, many
Jews had a downright hostile attitude toward the Nazi regime."
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Re: [OSM-talk] Names for Fiji

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-02-26 12:09 GMT+01:00 Jean-Guilhem Cailton :

> I might agree with your political preoccupation. However, I don't think
> that this crisis is the right time to change established OSM practice
> for Fiji.
>


acting like this will just establish this questionable practise more and
more, and next time someone raises the issue it will be even harder to
discuss alternatives, "because it has always been done like this and is
very established". If you don't agree with adding "en" to the key for
English names, please at least add Fijian and Hindi names with the same
priority (where they exist), i.e. also in the general name tag like it is
done in all multilingual areas.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Names for Fiji

[Jean-Guilhem Cailton]

Le 26/02/2016 12:12, Mateusz Konieczny a écrit :
> On Fri, 26 Feb 2016 10:01:40 +0100
> Jean-Guilhem Cailton  wrote:
>
>> For names used in news or social media reports, you can find their
>> location using (...) and Bing
>> (or other allowed satellite imagery).
> AFAIK only Bing satellite imagery is on suitable license. And satellite
> imagery is totally useless for purposes of linking names and
> settlements. 
>
> AFAIK names and other elements on Bing maps may not be legally copied
> to OSM.
>

Hi Mateusz,

There are other providers who allow their imagery to be used for OSM
mapping, like Mapbox for example, or major satellite imagery providers
directly, specially in times of crises.

Satellite imagery is useful in connection with roughly georeferenced AMS
maps to check the accurate location of settlements.

I was specifically referring to Bing imagery.

Best regards,

Jean-Guilhem


-- 
"On ne m’ôtera pas de l’idée que, pendant la dernière guerre mondiale,
de nombreux juifs ont eu une attitude carrément hostile à l’égard du
régime nazi." Pierre Desproges
"I won't be deprived of the idea that, during the last world war, many
Jews had a downright hostile attitude toward the Nazi regime."

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Re: [OSM-talk] Names for Fiji

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Fri, 26 Feb 2016 10:01:40 +0100
Jean-Guilhem Cailton  wrote:

> For names used in news or social media reports, you can find their
> location using (...) and Bing
> (or other allowed satellite imagery).

AFAIK only Bing satellite imagery is on suitable license. And satellite
imagery is totally useless for purposes of linking names and
settlements. 

AFAIK names and other elements on Bing maps may not be legally copied
to OSM.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Names for Fiji

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-02-26 10:38 GMT+01:00 Jean-Guilhem Cailton :

> Apparently your point of view about "ungoing colonization" is not shared
> by Fidjian officials, news media, nor by OSM mappers of Fiji so far.




I'm all but well informed about the current situation in Fiji (I just read
the Internet, haven't been there), still I am not at all surprised about
this. I wrote using English as primary name seemed to me kind of an act of
ongoing colonization / suppression by the west, and you reply: officials
and the official media don't share this view. Seriously?

Anyway, what I have learned in my short research was that using English
seems to be seen (or is advocated) as anti-suppression, because it is
neither Fijian nor Fiji Hindi but is foreign to either ethnicity and
therefor not privilegizing one of them, at least officially.

Have you had a look about the representation of the different ethnities
among the Fiji Officials and news media? Are you aware that there is very
low diffussion of media in general (3 daily newspapers and 2 weekly ones,
51 daily copies per 1000 inhabitants, tv since 1991 and just one tv station
which is operated by the government), 55.000 internet connections, 102.000
phone connections, 109.000 cell phones, 541.000 radios and 91.000 tv sets
for a population of 890.000 (numbers might be outdated, from Wikipedia:de).

I wonder if there is a climate in Fiji where you could agree to my view
without fear of suppression. I don't know how many OSM Mappers mapping in
Fiji are actually residents there, and to which ethnicity the belong to,
but you can see from international reports on the country, e.g. amnesty
international or freedomhouse, that it isn't easy to express opposition to
the official view, and that at least the traditional media can't write
whatever they like (e.g. "There were no confirmed reports of government
restrictions on private discussion on political matters or other sensitive
topics in 2014. Personal blogs and other forms of social media, both for
and against the interim government, operated with relative freedom, unlike
traditional media.", freedomhouse, 2015)

Anyway, I only asked to add English names with an "en" postfix, not to
refrain from adding them.

http://www.refworld.org/docid/54f07df26.html
https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2015/fiji

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Names for Fiji

[Jean-Guilhem Cailton]

Le 26/02/2016 10:16, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
>
> 2016-02-26 10:05 GMT+01:00 Jean-Guilhem Cailton  >:
>
> > are these names English or fiji or hindi?
> >
> > cheers
> > Martin
> >
>
> They are "name" found in reports from Fijian officials or medias -
> that
> apparently use English, an official language in Fiji (I haven't seen
> Fijian news reports in other languages - yet) - and often found in the
> "name" tag in OSM in Fiji. And in 1944 US topo maps for "old_name".
>
>
>
>
> I find it problematic to make remote edits based on foreign maps and
> add names in a foreign language as main names, although because of
> colonization this foreign language is apparently used as lingua
> franca. I see this as kind of ungoing colonization, where I'd actually
> expect people use names in their first language to refer to the places
> they live. From a quick internet search it appears that English isn't
> the first language for a vast majority of people living in Fiji. My
> suggestion is to use the tags name:en and old_name:en for names and
> old names in English.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin

Apparently your point of view about "ungoing colonization" is not shared
by Fidjian officials, news media, nor by OSM mappers of Fiji so far.

Best regards,

Jean-Guilhem
https://twitter.com/jgvisov

-- 
"On ne m’ôtera pas de l’idée que, pendant la dernière guerre mondiale,
de nombreux juifs ont eu une attitude carrément hostile à l’égard du
régime nazi." Pierre Desproges
"I won't be deprived of the idea that, during the last world war, many
Jews had a downright hostile attitude toward the Nazi regime."
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Re: [OSM-talk] Names for Fiji

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-02-26 10:05 GMT+01:00 Jean-Guilhem Cailton :

> > are these names English or fiji or hindi?
> >
> > cheers
> > Martin
> >
>
> They are "name" found in reports from Fijian officials or medias - that
> apparently use English, an official language in Fiji (I haven't seen
> Fijian news reports in other languages - yet) - and often found in the
> "name" tag in OSM in Fiji. And in 1944 US topo maps for "old_name".




I find it problematic to make remote edits based on foreign maps and add
names in a foreign language as main names, although because of colonization
this foreign language is apparently used as lingua franca. I see this as
kind of ungoing colonization, where I'd actually expect people use names in
their first language to refer to the places they live. From a quick
internet search it appears that English isn't the first language for a vast
majority of people living in Fiji. My suggestion is to use the tags name:en
and old_name:en for names and old names in English.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Names for Fiji

[Jean-Guilhem Cailton]

Le 26/02/2016 08:49, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
>
> sent from a phone
>
> Am 26.02.2016 um 07:08 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny :
>
>>> Note that names currently in use are often a simplified form of these
>>> "old" names, and that it is straightforward to recognize current names
>>> in old names.
>>>
>>> For example, on Koro Island, here is a list of correspondences old
>>> name
>>> - current name:
>>> Kande - Kade
>>> Nambuna - Nabuna
>>> Nangaindamu - Naqaidamu
>>> Sinuvatha - Sinuvaca
>>> Namathu - Namacu
>>> Mundu - Mudu
>
> are these names English or fiji or hindi?
>
> cheers 
> Martin 
>

They are "name" found in reports from Fijian officials or medias - that
apparently use English, an official language in Fiji (I haven't seen
Fijian news reports in other languages - yet) - and often found in the
"name" tag in OSM in Fiji. And in 1944 US topo maps for "old_name".

Cheers,

Jean-Guilhem


-- 
"On ne m’ôtera pas de l’idée que, pendant la dernière guerre mondiale,
de nombreux juifs ont eu une attitude carrément hostile à l’égard du
régime nazi." Pierre Desproges
"I won't be deprived of the idea that, during the last world war, many
Jews had a downright hostile attitude toward the Nazi regime."

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Re: [OSM-talk] Names for Fiji

[Jean-Guilhem Cailton]

Le 26/02/2016 07:08, Mateusz Konieczny a écrit :
> On Fri, 26 Feb 2016 02:02:23 +0100
> Jean-Guilhem Cailton  wrote:
>
>> Note that names currently in use are often a simplified form of these
>> "old" names, and that it is straightforward to recognize current names
>> in old names.
>>
>> For example, on Koro Island, here is a list of correspondences old
>> name
>> - current name:
>> Kande - Kade
>> Nambuna - Nabuna
>> Nangaindamu - Naqaidamu
>> Sinuvatha - Sinuvaca
>> Namathu - Namacu
>> Mundu - Mudu
> Is there any reliable method without copyright problems to check
> whatever given name should go into name or old_name tag?
>

Hi Mateusz,

Thank you for your interest.

For names used in news or social media reports, you can find their
location using public domain AMS map (and possibly old_name) and Bing
(or other allowed satellite imagery).

Mappers wishing to help add names in OSM for Fiji can contact me, and
I'll share access to a spreadsheet where we collect place names that are
missing in OSM, and that we come across in news or social media reports.

Best wishes,

Jean-Guilhem


-- 
"On ne m’ôtera pas de l’idée que, pendant la dernière guerre mondiale,
de nombreux juifs ont eu une attitude carrément hostile à l’égard du
régime nazi." Pierre Desproges
"I won't be deprived of the idea that, during the last world war, many
Jews had a downright hostile attitude toward the Nazi regime."

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Re: [OSM-talk] Names for Fiji

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

Am 26.02.2016 um 07:08 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny :

>> Note that names currently in use are often a simplified form of these
>> "old" names, and that it is straightforward to recognize current names
>> in old names.
>> 
>> For example, on Koro Island, here is a list of correspondences old
>> name
>> - current name:
>> Kande - Kade
>> Nambuna - Nabuna
>> Nangaindamu - Naqaidamu
>> Sinuvatha - Sinuvaca
>> Namathu - Namacu
>> Mundu - Mudu


are these names English or fiji or hindi?

cheers 
Martin 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Names for Fiji

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Fri, 26 Feb 2016 02:02:23 +0100
Jean-Guilhem Cailton  wrote:

> Note that names currently in use are often a simplified form of these
> "old" names, and that it is straightforward to recognize current names
> in old names.
> 
> For example, on Koro Island, here is a list of correspondences old
> name
> - current name:
> Kande - Kade
> Nambuna - Nabuna
> Nangaindamu - Naqaidamu
> Sinuvatha - Sinuvaca
> Namathu - Namacu
> Mundu - Mudu

Is there any reliable method without copyright problems to check
whatever given name should go into name or old_name tag?

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[OSM-talk] Names for Fiji

[Jean-Guilhem Cailton]

Hi,

Fiji was severely hit by category 5 cyclone Winston, the second most
powerful recorded in the Southern hemisphere.

If you look at OSM data for Fiji, you may notice that names are lacking
for many villages, whose extent has been or can be mapped from Bing
imagery.

A source to locate village names can be public domain US Army Map
Service 1:250,000 1944 topo maps. A layer with the whole series covering
Fiji is available at:

http://mapwarper.net/layers/483

Tiles can be accessed at:
http://mapwarper.net/layers/tile/483/{z}/{x}/{y}.png

A WMS link suitable for JOSM is:
http://mapwarper.net/layers/wms/483?request=GetMap=1.1.1==image/png={proj}=application/vnd.ogc.session.inimage={width}={height}={bbox};

Note that names currently in use are often a simplified form of these
"old" names, and that it is straightforward to recognize current names
in old names.

For example, on Koro Island, here is a list of correspondences old name
- current name:
Kande - Kade
Nambuna - Nabuna
Nangaindamu - Naqaidamu
Sinuvatha - Sinuvaca
Namathu - Namacu
Mundu - Mudu

There are also many names that haven't changed.

This map from UN OCHA shows cyclone track, strongest wind strips, and
current names of islands:
http://reliefweb.int/map/fiji/fiji-tc-winston-final-track-21-feb-2016

This map of news and social media reports can provide other examples of
currently used place names:
http://u.osmfr.org/m/72342/

Best wishes,

Jean-Guilhem


-- 
"On ne m’ôtera pas de l’idée que, pendant la dernière guerre mondiale,
de nombreux juifs ont eu une attitude carrément hostile à l’égard du
régime nazi." Pierre Desproges
"I won't be deprived of the idea that, during the last world war, many
Jews had a downright hostile attitude toward the Nazi regime."

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