Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of osmarender:nameDirection - blatant tagging for the renderer

[Simon Poole]

Am 23.03.2019 um 13:28 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:
>
>
>
> Mar 23, 2019, 1:04 PM by ajt1...@gmail.com:
>
>
> On 3/23/19 11:46 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Mar 23, 2019, 9:59 AM by si...@poole.ch :
>>
>> ...  Producing false updates (aka no real content) just
>> obscures that fact and makes it more difficult to determine
>> which areas need to be revisted.
>>
>> It seems to me as not a real problem. There are many, many
>> different indicators of such places
>> and automatic edits are suitable to remove only very small part
>> of them.
>>
> It's a real problem, for a couple of reasons - one is that "this
> object might be out of date" warnings in e.g. Vespucci won't trigger
>
> Is it really a problem? It is only heuristic and there was no place
> where I ever mapped that
> I had problem because I run out of obvious indicators that something
> needs to be fixed, resurveyed
> or remapped.

Time since last edit is the only -non- heuristic measure of staleness in
OSM. There are other ways to determine this, but they are are an order
of magnitude more involved (essentially you need to retrieve prior
versions and start comparing tags and geometries). And I wasn't even
thinking specifically of Vespucci in this case (in principle for
Vespucci it could be worked around by setting a fake survey_date in a
mass edit).

And to repeat, I'm not against removing tags when they are really an
issue. For example last year we removed note tags from the locations of
the major car sharing operation in Switzerland, roughly a 1'000 objects,
because they indicated that the objects shouldn't be edited (originally
they were imported), but there is no need to do so just for superficial
aesthetic reasons, just as other normalisation for the sake of
normalisation is contra productive in an OSM context.

>
> I opened https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/17512 (if it will pass I
> will open equivalents
> for iD and Vespucci).
>
>
You don't need to do anything separate for Vespucci, simply make a PR
against https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/blob/master/data/discarded.json

Simon




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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of osmarender:nameDirection - blatant tagging for the renderer

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Mar 23, 2019, 1:04 PM by ajt1...@gmail.com:

>
>
>
> On 3/23/19 11:46 AM, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mar 23, 2019, 9:59 AM by >> si...@poole.ch >> :
>>
>>>
>>> ...  Producing false updates (aka no real content) just  obscures 
>>> that fact and makes it more difficult to determine  which areas 
>>> need to be revisted.
>>>
>>>
>> It seems to me as not a realproblem. There are many, many different 
>> indicators of suchplaces
>> and automatic edits aresuitable to remove only very small part of 
>> them.
>>
>>
>
> It's a real problem, for a couple of reasons - one is that "this  object 
> might be out of date" warnings in e.g. Vespucci won't  trigger
>
>
Is it really a problem? It is only heuristic and there was no place where I 
ever mapped that
I had problem because I run out of obvious indicators that something needs to 
be fixed, resurveyed
or remapped.

>  and the other is that by definition automated edits don't  look to see 
> if the object being edited was sensible.  "Not  sensible"might mean "a 
> shop in the middle of the sea", "a peak at  the bottom of a quarry" or 
> "an unfeasible park added for Pokemon  purposes" (perhaps one that covers 
> an obviously residential area).
>
All that things can be easily found - again, there are endless queues of 
blatantly obvious 
mistaggings. And all mentioned examples would be trivial to automatically 
detect (I would even
add detecting this problems to standard tools if running out of things to fix 
would be 
problem in any region).

>
> With a DWG hat on it falls to me more than most to remove  unfeasible 
> data, and that's much harder to do if someone has been  "correcting" it 
> in the mean time.
>
>
OK, that is something that I understand. Making reverts more complicated is 
separate topic
where I agree that edits like this may make things harder.

>
> In the specific case of "osmarender:nameDirection" using "natural  
> wastage" by deleting when next edited sounds a better way to do  it. 
>
>
I opened https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/17512 
 (if it will pass I will open 
equivalents
for iD and Vespucci).

For me it works as well, if human mappers will not see this tag ever again it 
works almost as well
for me and fixes the biggest problem.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of osmarender:nameDirection - blatant tagging for the renderer

[Andy Townsend]

On 3/23/19 11:46 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:




Mar 23, 2019, 9:59 AM by si...@poole.ch:

...  Producing false updates (aka no real content) just obscures
that fact and makes it more difficult to determine which areas
need to be revisted.

It seems to me as not a real problem. There are many, many different 
indicators of such places

and automatic edits are suitable to remove only very small part of them.


It's a real problem, for a couple of reasons - one is that "this object 
might be out of date" warnings in e.g. Vespucci won't trigger, and the 
other is that by definition automated edits don't look to see if the 
object being edited was sensible.  "Not sensible"might mean "a shop in 
the middle of the sea", "a peak at the bottom of a quarry" or "an 
unfeasible park added for Pokemon purposes" (perhaps one that covers an 
obviously residential area).


With a DWG hat on it falls to me more than most to remove unfeasible 
data, and that's much harder to do if someone has been "correcting" it 
in the mean time.


In the specific case of "osmarender:nameDirection" using "natural 
wastage" by deleting when next edited sounds a better way to do it.  In 
the case of _actually misleading data_ (like the results of a crap 
import) then undoing the crap import obviously does make sense, and the 
"post offices in the desert" in the US surely falls into that category.  
Whether it's better to undo via revert, something like Maproulette or 
something like Streetcomplete will depend on the nature of the 
individual problem.


Best Regards,

Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of osmarender:nameDirection - blatant tagging for the renderer

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Mar 23, 2019, 9:59 AM by si...@poole.ch:

>
> While there's a certain amount of unnecessary database bloat  caused by 
> creating a new version, the real objection is that these  tags tend to 
> survive in areas with low maintenance, aka low  amounts of gardening. 
> Producing false updates (aka no real  content) just obscures that fact 
> and makes it more difficult to  determine which areas need to be revisted.
>
>
It seems to me as not a real problem. There are many, many different indicators 
of such places
and automatic edits are suitable to remove only very small part of them.

I am pretty sure that after making all possible automatic edits it would be 
still easy to locate
such abandoned regions and human editing time could be used for things more 
useful than
manual removal of pointless tag polluting tag lists.

See for example http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ 

(depending on location one may prefer different reports)

We have 800+ objects with source="Google Maps" (yes, it is on my todo  list, 
yes I notified 
DWG long time ago).
See http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Hge 

The bottleneck is not "we will run out of things to fix" or "we will run out of 
easy to find places
to repair", the bottleneck is time of mappers.

TIGER mess alone in USA is enough for decades or years of remapping, HOT low 
quality 
mapping in Africa or Haiti has massive amount of easy to find fixable data,
there are millions of instances of tags that has no reason to be present.

I see no point in wasting my time during normal editing on manual tag removal 
of keys
or tags that never, ever can be worth keeping and I would prefer to do it 
automatically.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of osmarender:nameDirection - blatant tagging for the renderer

[Simon Poole]

Am 17.03.2019 um 22:09 schrieb Dave F:
> Mateusz
> There's also a few osmarender:renderName in the UK. Maybe check
> osmarender:* to collate all?
>
> Simon
> Never comprehended the reluctance to remove dead items. Does stepping
> the version /really/ cause any harm?
> Contributors, especially newbies, often copy tags from existing
> examples with redundant tags often propagating as result.

Nobody is advocating -not- removing such tags, just opposing edits just
for that.

While there's a certain amount of unnecessary database bloat caused by
creating a new version, the real objection is that these tags tend to
survive in areas with low maintenance, aka low amounts of gardening.
Producing false updates (aka no real content) just obscures that fact
and makes it more difficult to determine which areas need to be revisted.

Naturally this applies not just to tag removal for the sake of tag
removal, it applies to all nonsense updates (adding default values to
objects and similar that is so popular now days).

 

>
> We allow everybody to add data (which I agree with), but there's an
> increasing resistance to anybody suggesting tag removal.
>
The other way around you mean.

Simon

> If it improves database quality, then go for it.
>
> DaveF
>
>
> On 15/03/2019 20:13, Simon Poole wrote:
>> Why would we want to create new versions of objects just to remove a tag
>> that is not hurting anybody in any way?
>>
>> The correct way to handle this is to add the tag to the list of
>> deprecated tags that should be automatically removed (essentially iD has
>> a list and JOSM has one too), when and if the objects are ever edited
>> the tags will then be removed.
>>
>> Simon
>>
>> Am 15.03.2019 um 20:16 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:
>>> osmarender:nameDirection=* is an old tag that is case of tagging for
>>> the renderer.
>>> Additionally, Osmarender is defunct anyway.
>>>
>>> I propose to purge this tag from database as useless, confusing and
>>> encouraging
>>> tagging for renderer.
>>>
>>> This edit would remove about 2000 osmarender:nameDirection=* tags
>>> worldwide,
>>> with most of them in Germany and England.
>>>
>>> osmarender:nameDirection is described on OSM Wiki as
>>>
>>> "By default Osmarender will draw street names left-to-right along ways.
>>> It uses the longitude (horizontal position) of the start and end
>>> points of the
>>> way to determine the direction.
>>>
>>> In some cases, for example, very winding roads, the automatically chosen
>>> name direction is not ideal. In this case the way can be tagged with
>>> osmarender:nameDirection=-1 or osmarender:nameDirection=1 as a
>>> hint to tell Osmarender which way to draw the name. "
>>>
>>> Automated edit page:
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/elimination_of_osmarender:nameDirection_-_blatant_tagging_for_the_renderer
>>>
>>> ___
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>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of osmarender:nameDirection - blatant tagging for the renderer

[Tobias Knerr]

On 15.03.19 21:13, Simon Poole wrote:
> Why would we want to create new versions of objects just to remove a tag
> that is not hurting anybody in any way?

Mostly for the reason which Mateusz has mentioned in his response:
Keeping obsolete tagging around for years or decades adds to the burden
of concepts that new community members need to learn to fully understand
our data.

But additionally, I would argue that removing them all at once actually
results in a cleaner history than automatic removal by editors. It seems
to me that performing these edits in one clearly labelled changeset fits
our best practices – grouping related edits into a changeset and using
meaningful changeset comments – much better than mixing them into
completely unrelated changes would.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of osmarender:nameDirection - blatant tagging for the renderer

[Dave F via talk]

I'd say almost certainly, yes. Do you have any specific tags in mind?

DaveF

On 17/03/2019 21:27, Andrew Hain wrote:

Is it worth mechanically removing any of the existing discardable tags from the 
database as well?

--
Andrew

From: Dave F via talk 
Sent: 17 March 2019 21:09
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of 
osmarender:nameDirection - blatant tagging for the renderer

Mateusz
There's also a few osmarender:renderName in the UK. Maybe check osmarender:* to 
collate all?

Simon
Never comprehended the reluctance to remove dead items. Does stepping the 
version /really/ cause any harm?
Contributors, especially newbies, often copy tags from existing examples with 
redundant tags often propagating as result.

We allow everybody to add data (which I agree with), but there's an increasing 
resistance to anybody suggesting tag removal.

If it improves database quality, then go for it.

DaveF


On 15/03/2019 20:13, Simon Poole wrote:

Why would we want to create new versions of objects just to remove a tag
that is not hurting anybody in any way?

The correct way to handle this is to add the tag to the list of
deprecated tags that should be automatically removed (essentially iD has
a list and JOSM has one too), when and if the objects are ever edited
the tags will then be removed.

Simon

Am 15.03.2019 um 20:16 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:


osmarender:nameDirection=* is an old tag that is case of tagging for
the renderer.
Additionally, Osmarender is defunct anyway.

I propose to purge this tag from database as useless, confusing and
encouraging
tagging for renderer.

This edit would remove about 2000 osmarender:nameDirection=* tags
worldwide,
with most of them in Germany and England.

osmarender:nameDirection is described on OSM Wiki as

"By default Osmarender will draw street names left-to-right along ways.
It uses the longitude (horizontal position) of the start and end
points of the
way to determine the direction.

In some cases, for example, very winding roads, the automatically chosen
name direction is not ideal. In this case the way can be tagged with
osmarender:nameDirection=-1 or osmarender:nameDirection=1 as a
hint to tell Osmarender which way to draw the name. "

Automated edit page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/elimination_of_osmarender:nameDirection_-_blatant_tagging_for_the_renderer

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of osmarender:nameDirection - blatant tagging for the renderer

[Andrew Hain]

Is it worth mechanically removing any of the existing discardable tags from the 
database as well?

--
Andrew

From: Dave F via talk 
Sent: 17 March 2019 21:09
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of 
osmarender:nameDirection - blatant tagging for the renderer

Mateusz
There's also a few osmarender:renderName in the UK. Maybe check osmarender:* to 
collate all?

Simon
Never comprehended the reluctance to remove dead items. Does stepping the 
version /really/ cause any harm?
Contributors, especially newbies, often copy tags from existing examples with 
redundant tags often propagating as result.

We allow everybody to add data (which I agree with), but there's an increasing 
resistance to anybody suggesting tag removal.

If it improves database quality, then go for it.

DaveF


On 15/03/2019 20:13, Simon Poole wrote:

Why would we want to create new versions of objects just to remove a tag
that is not hurting anybody in any way?

The correct way to handle this is to add the tag to the list of
deprecated tags that should be automatically removed (essentially iD has
a list and JOSM has one too), when and if the objects are ever edited
the tags will then be removed.

Simon

Am 15.03.2019 um 20:16 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:


osmarender:nameDirection=* is an old tag that is case of tagging for
the renderer.
Additionally, Osmarender is defunct anyway.

I propose to purge this tag from database as useless, confusing and
encouraging
tagging for renderer.

This edit would remove about 2000 osmarender:nameDirection=* tags
worldwide,
with most of them in Germany and England.

osmarender:nameDirection is described on OSM Wiki as

"By default Osmarender will draw street names left-to-right along ways.
It uses the longitude (horizontal position) of the start and end
points of the
way to determine the direction.

In some cases, for example, very winding roads, the automatically chosen
name direction is not ideal. In this case the way can be tagged with
osmarender:nameDirection=-1 or osmarender:nameDirection=1 as a
hint to tell Osmarender which way to draw the name. "

Automated edit page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/elimination_of_osmarender:nameDirection_-_blatant_tagging_for_the_renderer

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of osmarender:nameDirection - blatant tagging for the renderer

[Dave F via talk]

Mateusz
There's also a few osmarender:renderName in the UK. Maybe check 
osmarender:* to collate all?


Simon
Never comprehended the reluctance to remove dead items. Does stepping 
the version /really/ cause any harm?
Contributors, especially newbies, often copy tags from existing examples 
with redundant tags often propagating as result.


We allow everybody to add data (which I agree with), but there's an 
increasing resistance to anybody suggesting tag removal.


If it improves database quality, then go for it.

DaveF


On 15/03/2019 20:13, Simon Poole wrote:

Why would we want to create new versions of objects just to remove a tag
that is not hurting anybody in any way?

The correct way to handle this is to add the tag to the list of
deprecated tags that should be automatically removed (essentially iD has
a list and JOSM has one too), when and if the objects are ever edited
the tags will then be removed.

Simon

Am 15.03.2019 um 20:16 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:

osmarender:nameDirection=* is an old tag that is case of tagging for
the renderer.
Additionally, Osmarender is defunct anyway.

I propose to purge this tag from database as useless, confusing and
encouraging
tagging for renderer.

This edit would remove about 2000 osmarender:nameDirection=* tags
worldwide,
with most of them in Germany and England.

osmarender:nameDirection is described on OSM Wiki as

"By default Osmarender will draw street names left-to-right along ways.
It uses the longitude (horizontal position) of the start and end
points of the
way to determine the direction.

In some cases, for example, very winding roads, the automatically chosen
name direction is not ideal. In this case the way can be tagged with
osmarender:nameDirection=-1 or osmarender:nameDirection=1 as a
hint to tell Osmarender which way to draw the name. "

Automated edit page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/elimination_of_osmarender:nameDirection_-_blatant_tagging_for_the_renderer

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of osmarender:nameDirection - blatant tagging for the renderer

[Michael Kugelmann]

Am 15.03.2019 um 21:13 schrieb Simon Poole:


Why would we want to create new versions of objects just to remove a 
tag that is not hurting anybody in any way?



Clean Up ?

If we don't clean up from time to time we will over time collect a lot 
of trash which is "not usefull" at all.



Just my 2 cents,
Michael.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of osmarender:nameDirection - blatant tagging for the renderer

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 15. März 2019 um 21:27 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <
matkoni...@tutanota.com>:

> Because it is especially broken and confusing - and promotes tagging for
> renderer.
>



this is not a case of "tagging for the renderer" as it is usually referred
to (using a tag differently from what it was intended to obtain a certain
result in rendering).
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer

By the way, there once was a "osmarender"-subtag for curved roads (should
the way be "bezier-treated"), which sounded like a rendering hint, but
actually could be seen as descriptive data (stating whether the way
geometry is approximating a curve or is actually "stepped"). Looks as if it
has been completely "cleaned up".

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of osmarender:nameDirection - blatant tagging for the renderer

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Because it is especially broken and confusing - and promotes tagging for 
renderer.

"not hurting anybody in any way" is quite strong claim that I think is false. 

It is not a big problem but every time someone encounters it for the first time
either has one more thing on "confusing things about OSM" or wastes time
on checking what is this thing.

And "create new versions of object" is extremely minor cost.

"The correct way to handle this is to" - I would say that it is a matter of 
opinion what is preferred.

Personally I consider one more entry in history to be vastly less confusing and 
irritating
than a directly visible tag that should not be present.

Mar 15, 2019, 9:13 PM by si...@poole.ch:

>
> Why would we want to create new versions of objects just to  remove a tag 
> that is not hurting anybody in any way? 
>
>
> The correct way to handle this is to add the tag to the list of  
> deprecated tags that should be automatically removed (essentially  iD has 
> a list and JOSM has one too), when and if the objects are  ever edited 
> the tags will then be removed.
>
>
> Simon
>
> Am 15.03.2019 um 20:16 schrieb Mateusz  Konieczny:
>
>> osmarender:nameDirection=* isan old tag that is case of tagging for 
>> the renderer. 
>> Additionally, Osmarender isdefunct anyway.
>>  
>>  I propose to purge this tag from database as useless, confusingand 
>> encouraging
>> tagging for renderer. 
>>
>> This edit would remove about2000 osmarender:nameDirection=* tags 
>> worldwide,
>> with most of them in Germanyand England.
>>
>> osmarender:nameDirection isdescribed on OSM Wiki as 
>>
>> "By default Osmarender willdraw street names left-to-right along 
>> ways. 
>> It uses the longitude(horizontal position) of the start and end 
>> points of the 
>> way to determine thedirection.
>>  
>>  In some cases, for example, very winding roads, theautomatically 
>> chosen
>> name direction is not ideal.In this case the way can be tagged with 
>> osmarender:nameDirection=-1 orosmarender:nameDirection=1 as a 
>> hint to tell Osmarender whichway to draw the name. "
>>
>> Automated edit page:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/elimination_of_osmarender:nameDirection_-_blatant_tagging_for_the_renderer
>>  
>> 
>>
>> ___talk mailing list>> 
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk 
>> 
>>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of osmarender:nameDirection - blatant tagging for the renderer

[Simon Poole]

Why would we want to create new versions of objects just to remove a tag
that is not hurting anybody in any way?

The correct way to handle this is to add the tag to the list of
deprecated tags that should be automatically removed (essentially iD has
a list and JOSM has one too), when and if the objects are ever edited
the tags will then be removed.

Simon

Am 15.03.2019 um 20:16 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:
> osmarender:nameDirection=* is an old tag that is case of tagging for
> the renderer.
> Additionally, Osmarender is defunct anyway.
>
> I propose to purge this tag from database as useless, confusing and
> encouraging
> tagging for renderer.
>
> This edit would remove about 2000 osmarender:nameDirection=* tags
> worldwide,
> with most of them in Germany and England.
>
> osmarender:nameDirection is described on OSM Wiki as
>
> "By default Osmarender will draw street names left-to-right along ways.
> It uses the longitude (horizontal position) of the start and end
> points of the
> way to determine the direction.
>
> In some cases, for example, very winding roads, the automatically chosen
> name direction is not ideal. In this case the way can be tagged with
> osmarender:nameDirection=-1 or osmarender:nameDirection=1 as a
> hint to tell Osmarender which way to draw the name. "
>
> Automated edit page:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/elimination_of_osmarender:nameDirection_-_blatant_tagging_for_the_renderer
>
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[OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of osmarender:nameDirection - blatant tagging for the renderer

[Mateusz Konieczny]

osmarender:nameDirection=* is an old tag that is case of tagging for the 
renderer. 
Additionally, Osmarender is defunct anyway.

I propose to purge this tag from database as useless, confusing and encouraging 
tagging for renderer. 

This edit would remove about 2000 osmarender:nameDirection=* tags worldwide,
with most of them in Germany and England.

osmarender:nameDirection is described on OSM Wiki as 

"By default Osmarender will draw street names left-to-right along ways. 
It uses the longitude (horizontal position) of the start and end points of the 
way to determine the direction.

In some cases, for example, very winding roads, the automatically chosen name 
direction is not ideal. In this case the way can be tagged with 
osmarender:nameDirection=-1 or osmarender:nameDirection=1 as a 
hint to tell Osmarender which way to draw the name. "

Automated edit page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/elimination_of_osmarender:nameDirection_-_blatant_tagging_for_the_renderer
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