Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

[Dave F via talk]

On 14/06/2019 20:12, Yves wrote:

Given that the two tags aren't the same (amenity=atm is an atm, atm=yes 
contains an atm)


That's why Mateusz proposed this edit.


If you're not ready to consume OSM data using NOT, AND or OR, don't even start 
:)


As the two tags are mutually exclusive, it shouldn't require operator 
filtering.


DaveF

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

[Yves]

It isn't worth it, I'm afraid you're loosing your time. 
Given that the two tags aren't the same (amenity=atm is an atm, atm=yes 
contains an atm) you'll soon have this one art piece that definitely deserves 
amenity=atm + atm=no. Or not.
If you're not ready to consume OSM data using NOT, AND or OR, don't even start 
:)
Not to say that OSM should be a joyful mess, but to me such apparent redundancy 
does no harm. A matter of point of view on the best way to describe the same 
things, that's all. 
Yves 

Le 14 juin 2019 08:57:22 GMT+02:00, Mateusz Konieczny  
a écrit :
>Recently in mapping I encountered amenity=atm with atm=yes
>
>I manually removed atm=yes, but it turns that there is more of such
>objects.
>I propose to run an automatic edit that will remove atm=yes from all
>such objects.
>In addition I propose to remove also some other blatant and unnecessary
>duplicates.
>
>So in total I propose to remove
>
>atm=yes from amenity=atm http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JW8
>
>transportation=fuel from amenity=fuel http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWe
>
>sustenance=restaurant from amenity=restaurant
>http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWh
>sustenance=fast_food from amenity=fast_food
>http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWc
>service=post_office from amenity=post_office
>http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWa 
>
>as this duplicated tags are unnecessary, unwanted, confusing and
>undesirable.
>Edits would be split to not create overly large bounding boxes.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

[Mark Wagner]

On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 10:02:59 +0100
Dave F via talk  wrote:

> On 14/06/2019 07:57, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > Edits would be split to not create overly large bounding boxes.  
> 
> As long as it's clearly commented, I wouldn't loose any sleep over
> the physical size of the changeset. OSM should be concerning itself
> with quality rather than quantity.
> 
> That the main website is antiquated & unable to display details of
> edits is not a reason to improve the database efficiently. Performing
> edits in one go makes them easier to keep track of & revert, if
> there's a problem.

It's not just the main website.  I'm not aware of any QA tool that
makes it easy to review a planet-spanning changeset.

-- 
Mark

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

[Jmapb]

On 6/14/2019 9:50 AM, Dave F via talk wrote:

On 14/06/2019 14:10, Jmapb wrote:

 If there's a problem with a well-thought-out mechanical edit, it's
highly likely to be localized,


For mechanical/bot/automated edits, errors are more likely to be
duplicated across all amendments.

If 'local mapping communities' have 'different ideas' it should be
queried as to what they are & why they're required.


Sure, when possible, but this is a belt-and-suspenders situation. The
automated edits code of conduct (
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct#Execute_with_caution
) is pretty clear about this:

- Execute only a small number of edits wait for feedback before
proceeding with larger edits.
- One changeset covering the whole planet is hard to read. Changes
grouped into small regions are easiest to digest for human mappers.

(paraphrased)

Jason


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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

[Mateusz Konieczny]

14 Jun 2019, 14:55 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

> Looking at the actual sustenance values (total usage around 200 only), these 
> are all duplicating words which are already tagged as amenity values 
> (restaurant, fast_food etc.), I also haven't found specific documentation for 
> this key (and without a defined meaning it seems pointless to establish a 
> duplicate key here).
>
And it appears to be added solely by OsmAnd (I noticed it again during fixing
user_defined_other=* added by buggy/borken OsmAnd editor) 

> 2. service=post_office
> If the value for "service" is repeating "post office", it doesn't make sense, 
> but the basic idea of having a service tag for post offices does not seem 
> completely odd.
>
Yes, only service=post_office will be removed and only from amenity=post_office,
other service tags will be kept unchanged



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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

[Dave F via talk]

On 14/06/2019 14:10, Jmapb wrote:
 If there's a problem with a well-thought-out mechanical edit, it's 
highly likely to be localized,


For mechanical/bot/automated edits, errors are more likely to be 
duplicated across all amendments.


If 'local mapping communities' have 'different ideas' it should be 
queried as to what they are & why they're required.


DaveF



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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

[Jmapb]

On 6/14/2019 5:02 AM, Dave F via talk wrote:


That the main website is antiquated & unable to display details of
edits is not a reason to improve the database efficiently. Performing
edits in one go makes them easier to keep track of & revert, if
there's a problem.

DaveF


IMO, smaller and more gradual mechanical edits are much easier to keep
track of & revert. If there's a problem with a well-thought-out
mechanical edit, it's highly likely to be localized, either a data edge
case or a local mapping community that has different ideas. Smaller
edits allow us take a look at the actual consequences and possibly
suggest changes. And smaller reverts are also easier for the software to
handle.

Jason


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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 14. Juni 2019 um 09:00 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <
matkoni...@tutanota.com>:

> So in total I propose to remove
>
> atm=yes from amenity=atm http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JW8
> transportation=fuel from amenity=fuel http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWe
> sustenance=restaurant from amenity=restaurant
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWh
> sustenance=fast_food from amenity=fast_food http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWc
> service=post_office from amenity=post_office
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWa
>
>


while it generally looks ok to do this automated removal, there could be
some point in

1.
sustenance=restaurant, although I would expect the restaurant-type to be
better fitting into a "restaurant" or "restaurant:type" tag.
I have so far been adding local restaurant (and fast food) types with the
key "restaurant:type:it", and this has become somehow common amongst
Italian mappers (not very common, currently 750 times applied), where
common values are ristorante, pizzeria, osteria, trattoria, rosticceria,
tavola calda, bar, enoteca, piadineria,...

Looking at the actual sustenance values (total usage around 200 only),
these are all duplicating words which are already tagged as amenity values
(restaurant, fast_food etc.), I also haven't found specific documentation
for this key (and without a defined meaning it seems pointless to establish
a duplicate key here).



2. service=post_office
It may not always be entirely clear these days what a post office is, while
say 30 years ago the answer to this question was quite simple in many
countries: the official, monopolized, state operated "official" post office.
What are the requirements, what is the definition? According to the wiki
[1], amenity=post_office is for "a post office" (and/or?) "a place where
letters and parcels may be sent or collected". This is very scarce. Is it
sufficient the place allows to collect letters and parcels? Is any place
where letters and parcels can be sent a "post office" (think messenger
services)? Why is there an "or" between "sent or collected", shouldn't that
be an "and"?
Commonly (quite country specific though), post offices may offer a lot more
services (offering post office boxes, sending / receiving money, selling
stamps, paying bills and taxes, identifying people, sending registered mail
and telegrams (yeah, these still exist), often post offices also act as a
bank, and they may also act as an insurance company, they may sell digital
signatures, etc. etc.). Ultimately the list of services would be very long
and repetitive if we tried to add all of them, but there could be a point
in listing postal services, financial services and banking, insurances.
If the value for "service" is repeating "post office", it doesn't make
sense, but the basic idea of having a service tag for post offices does not
seem completely odd.


Cheers,
Martin



[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dpost_office
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

[Dave F via talk]

On 14/06/2019 07:57, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

Edits would be split to not create overly large bounding boxes.


As long as it's clearly commented, I wouldn't loose any sleep over the 
physical size of the changeset. OSM should be concerning itself with 
quality rather than quantity.


That the main website is antiquated & unable to display details of edits 
is not a reason to improve the database efficiently. Performing edits in 
one go makes them easier to keep track of & revert, if there's a problem.


DaveF

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

[Dave F via talk]

It's taken you longer to write your email than it would to write a line 
of extra code to search for them.


Easier to distinguish between the two:
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWq

DaveF

On 14/06/2019 08:27, Johnparis wrote:

For ATMs, at least, I would propose the opposite: add the atm=yes tag to
all amenity=atm

 From a user perspective, I want to be able to search for atm=yes to obtain
all the nearby ATMs. Removing this tag leaves me without standalone ATMs,
so I would have to search for atm=yes OR amenity=atm

Thus, I don't think this is duplicated information -- it is additional
information. If this were 1965 and we needed to fit everything into 32K of
memory, I'd say fine, but I don't see the need or the advantage.

John


On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 9:00 AM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:


Recently in mapping I encountered amenity=atm with atm=yes

I manually removed atm=yes, but it turns that there is more of such
objects.
I propose to run an automatic edit that will remove atm=yes from all such
objects.
In addition I propose to remove also some other blatant and unnecessary
duplicates.

So in total I propose to remove

atm=yes from amenity=atm http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JW8
transportation=fuel from amenity=fuel http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWe
sustenance=restaurant from amenity=restaurant
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWh
sustenance=fast_food from amenity=fast_food http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWc
service=post_office from amenity=post_office
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWa

as this duplicated tags are unnecessary, unwanted, confusing and
undesirable.
Edits would be split to not create overly large bounding boxes.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

[Simon Poole]

Please no.

Essentially you are saying that all attribute tags that indicate that a
specific facility is present should be duplicated on the standalone
objects of the same type.

bin=yes on amenity=waste_basket, bench=yes on amenity=bench and so on.

Am 14.06.2019 um 09:27 schrieb Johnparis:
> For ATMs, at least, I would propose the opposite: add the atm=yes tag
> to all amenity=atm
>
> From a user perspective, I want to be able to search for atm=yes to
> obtain all the nearby ATMs. Removing this tag leaves me without
> standalone ATMs, so I would have to search for atm=yes OR amenity=atm
>
> Thus, I don't think this is duplicated information -- it is additional
> information. If this were 1965 and we needed to fit everything into
> 32K of memory, I'd say fine, but I don't see the need or the advantage.
>
> John
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 9:00 AM Mateusz Konieczny
> mailto:matkoni...@tutanota.com>> wrote:
>
> Recently in mapping I encountered amenity=atm with atm=yes
>
> I manually removed atm=yes, but it turns that there is more of
> such objects.
> I propose to run an automatic edit that will remove atm=yes from
> all such objects.
> In addition I propose to remove also some other blatant and
> unnecessary duplicates.
>
> So in total I propose to remove
>
> atm=yes from amenity=atm http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JW8
> transportation=fuel from amenity=fuel http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWe
> sustenance=restaurant from amenity=restaurant
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWh
> sustenance=fast_food from amenity=fast_food
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWc
> service=post_office from amenity=post_office
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWa
>
> as this duplicated tags are unnecessary, unwanted, confusing and
> undesirable.
> Edits would be split to not create overly large bounding boxes.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 14.06.19 08:57, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> So in total I propose to remove

[...]

Makes sense to me. Please document it on the wiki as per the automated
editing guidlines,

"You should normally document your proposed edit at an English-language
wiki page named "Automated edits/username" (where username is the OSM
user name of the account that you will be using to perform the edits -
think about this now so that you don't have to rename the page later),
and add it to Category:Automated edits log."

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

[Andrew Harvey]

I think this proposed edit is reasonable, it makes things simpler without
loosing any information.

On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 17:30, Johnparis  wrote:

> From a user perspective, I want to be able to search for atm=yes to obtain
> all the nearby ATMs. Removing this tag leaves me without standalone ATMs,
> so I would have to search for atm=yes OR amenity=atm
>

Except you'd already need to search for amenity=atm or atm=yes to find
those amenity=atm's not tagged with atm=yes.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 14. Jun 2019, at 09:27, Johnparis  wrote:
> 
> For ATMs, at least, I would propose the opposite: add the atm=yes tag to all 
> amenity=atm


this doesn‘t seem reasonable, atm=yes is a property to state that the feature 
provides an atm. With amenity=yes it is already implied.

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

[Johnparis]

For ATMs, at least, I would propose the opposite: add the atm=yes tag to
all amenity=atm

>From a user perspective, I want to be able to search for atm=yes to obtain
all the nearby ATMs. Removing this tag leaves me without standalone ATMs,
so I would have to search for atm=yes OR amenity=atm

Thus, I don't think this is duplicated information -- it is additional
information. If this were 1965 and we needed to fit everything into 32K of
memory, I'd say fine, but I don't see the need or the advantage.

John


On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 9:00 AM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> Recently in mapping I encountered amenity=atm with atm=yes
>
> I manually removed atm=yes, but it turns that there is more of such
> objects.
> I propose to run an automatic edit that will remove atm=yes from all such
> objects.
> In addition I propose to remove also some other blatant and unnecessary
> duplicates.
>
> So in total I propose to remove
>
> atm=yes from amenity=atm http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JW8
> transportation=fuel from amenity=fuel http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWe
> sustenance=restaurant from amenity=restaurant
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWh
> sustenance=fast_food from amenity=fast_food http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWc
> service=post_office from amenity=post_office
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWa
>
> as this duplicated tags are unnecessary, unwanted, confusing and
> undesirable.
> Edits would be split to not create overly large bounding boxes.
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
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[OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Recently in mapping I encountered amenity=atm with atm=yes

I manually removed atm=yes, but it turns that there is more of such objects.
I propose to run an automatic edit that will remove atm=yes from all such 
objects.
In addition I propose to remove also some other blatant and unnecessary 
duplicates.

So in total I propose to remove

atm=yes from amenity=atm http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JW8 

transportation=fuel from amenity=fuel http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWe 

sustenance=restaurant from amenity=restaurant http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWh
sustenance=fast_food from amenity=fast_food http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWc
service=post_office from amenity=post_office http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWa 


as this duplicated tags are unnecessary, unwanted, confusing and undesirable.
Edits would be split to not create overly large bounding boxes.
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