Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
On 2020-01-05 23:25, Tomek wrote: EN (automatic translation) I plan to remove the "name" and "wikipedia" tags from places that are not associated with a specific nation or language: * continents * north and south poles * seas and bays, but exceptionally leaving the "name" tag for seas with a maximum of two (or three) languages of neighboring countries, so for example "Белое море" will not change. The purpose of this edition is to make the OSM map more neutral and not humiliate people from any country. There is no reason for the Humiliation is your own feeling. I am not British or American and I am not humiliated (or have any negative feelings) when I see such a tag. Can you explain also what this fixes? If any rendering engine wants to render a name and the name tag is not present, it will want to revert to another name. That may be name:en. That probably will not be to your liking, so will you then also remove the name:en tag? Baltic Sea to be the "Baltic Sea" or for South America to be "South America" - this is an example of English imperialism. This "imperialism" idea of yours is just your idea. It is not something that is widely felt. Any data will not be lost - programs will be able to extract the desired name from the tags name:en, name:pl, etc., Wikipedia links will be available via Wikidata. Please support (vote) my proposal or write a reason why not. I vote against it, if not only because your stance on this is flawed, but also because this might remove correct and valuable information. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
5 Jan 2020, 23:25 by to...@disroot.org: > > I plan to remove the "name" and "wikipedia" tags fromplaces that > are not associated with a specific nation orlanguage > This would be unacceptable damage, for reasons already discussed. > Wikipedia links will be available via Wikidata. > Removing human readable tags is a horrible idea, and yelling about imperialism is not a good argument. > > Please support (vote) my proposal or write a reasonwhy not. > I recommend familiarizing yourself with requirements for automatic edits. Automatic edits violating them can be reverted by anyone, at any time.___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
I'd suggest using the 6 main United Nations languages for the "name=*" tag of Oceans and Continents: Arabic, Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish. That would be very nice, actually. Although a bit redundant, as this information is already present in the six “name:UN:” tags. But there is no perfect solution, and as mentioned, most database users will want to pick a localized name of the form "name:=" so these tags should be added. I’m sorry, but I still have issues understanding why it would be so harmless… just to remove the “name” tag (in the case where there is no main local language). No information would be lost as all the “name:” (and its variants) would be still there. It would be up to the renderrer to have to make a choice. It looks much less ad hoc to me: OSM is before all the database, not its renderrers. (Again, amongst OSM’s principles, I believe that there is a “semantic first, not renderring” one.) I would understand if there would have been some well-used renderrers that assume a “name” tag for large objects, but it doesn’t seem to be the case from this discussion. Adding a “name” tag to a place with no local name seems artificial, and as you have seen, raises quite a lot of tensions because it implicitly imposes the assumption that there should be one main language… and this assumption seems so far away from the principles of OSM. As Oleksiy Muzalyev said it very nicely: “Translation is becoming the true international language”. By the way, I’ve seen quite unusual changesets related to this issue. I’m linking some here, as I think that it illustrates the issues of the discussion in a more concrete matter: There is an edit war here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/424311641/history Basically, there are some people insisting that the “name” tag of the Maldives be in English instead of the local name “ދިވެހިރާއްޖެ”. This is very strange to me: in this case there is a clear local language, but some people still insist in having it in English. English is locally recognised, but it is not the official language. I’m sorry, but it’s difficult not to see that as English imperialism: people wanting to impose English locally without any reason. I furthermore notice that changeset relative to Esperanto are prompt to trigger ban policies, but English-related not that much: there seems to be an asymmetry here which doesn’t feel like the values of OSM. Speaking of which, some reverts are done in the name of “Esperanto vandalism” while the situation is more complex than this. For instance, this revert: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/77883111 The initial changeset didn’t updated “name” tags from English to Esperanto, it just removed them, and added localised notes “:eo”. These additional tags has been removed because of the revert. I fully understand that one shouldn’t remove the “name” tag until we have set up this discussion here, but with such as revert description, it seems as if the main issue of the original commit was to add localised tags Oo Please don’t use such changeset description unless the original changeset really did just update a bunch of “name” tags to Esperanto for no apparent reason. Anyway, as Pierre Béland yesterday evening said it very well: let’s be positive, the new year is coming ☺ Cheers, Martin. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
EO Eble mi havas solvon pri la etikedo “name” por kontinentoj (escepte por Antarkto), rigardu al la listo de landoj kaj ĝiaj oficialaj lingvoj, aldonu Interlingvaon, kaj elektu 5 (aŭ pli) de ili: PL Chyba mam rozwiązanie etykiety „name” dla kontynentów (z wyjątkiem Antarktydy), spojrzeć na listę krajów i ich języków oficjalnych, dodać Interlingwę i wybrać 5 bądź więcej z nich): EN I think I have the tag "name" solution for the continents (except Antarctica), look at the list of countries and their official languages, add Interlingua and choose 5 or more of them): Europa / Europe / Evropa / Ευρώπη / Европа Asia / Азия / ایشیا / एशिया / এশিয়া / 亚洲 Afelika / Africa / Afrika / Afrique / أفريقيا / አፍሪቃ America del Nord / América del Norte / Amerik dinò / Amérique du Nord / North America <>___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
On 12/7/19 02:54, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: sent from a phone On 6. Dec 2019, at 15:16, pangoSE wrote: I believe that we should deprecate all wikipedia links as they are just potentially obsolete cruft that can be inferred from the wikidata item. (I am also an editor of Wikidata) If you really want the Wikipedia link displayed fix your editor to fetch the local wikipedia link (if any) for your local language in addition to the label and description. I know that people are assuming that a wikipedia article in language x has approximately the same content as another one in language y that is linked to it, but this is not the case. There are often significant differences, even if many articles are translations from the English version. Wikidata is another thing. It all started with one wikidata object for every article, but as the project grows and people edit it (yes, not only bots are editing wikidata), their objects get split and refined (subgroups of objects). A common example are settlements. In wikipedia, political and socio-geographic entities are often covered in the same article (or they are combined in one language and split in another). In wikidata (and even more in OpenStreetMap), these tend to get split over several objects. Wikipedia tends to aggregate several aspects of a thing into one article, wikidata tends to separating the concepts. If someone adds a wikipedia link for something, you can see by the language which specific article she has read and linked (confirmed). It does not automatically imply that all wikipedia articles in other languages would also fit for the OpenStreetMap object that has gotten the tag. Even less for wikidata (which usually only deals with part of an article, which is not necessarily the one which fits for the object). Just have a look, it happens all the time, another typical case for issues are buildings and things inside the buildings (museums, governments, whatever). Maybe it is less of an issue with natural places (mountains, seas, etc), but in the cultural world it is almost ubiquitous. Cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Good morning Martin, Here is, for example, the article for the Louvre museum in Englsh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louvre . On the left part of this page there is the link "Wikidata item", which leads to this wikidata page: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q19675 On the wikidata page there are links to the Wikipedia articles of this museum in dozens of languages. This particular museum is of an interest to the large number of people from many countries for numerous reasons (tourists, researches, students, etc.). I assume that the absolute majority of these people will not read the article in English or in French, but rather in their mother tongue. Usually any significant Wikipedia article has got its respective wikidata item. If it does not have it, it could be created easily. So instead of adding a Wikipedia article of a museum in a specific language, the wikida item with the links to this articles in all available languages could be added. Then in a map editor or on a map web page, a visitor could be shown the link to the article in her/his language of choice immediately. So that the visitor could go to the Wikipedia article directly. But not first to the Wikipedia article in a foreign language and then search manually for the link to the article in his mother tongue on the HTML page. Or even better, he could be presented with a drop-down list of this Wikipedia article in all available language versions with the article in his language of choice preselected. The Wikidata is the structured database, so its contents can be accesses in a complex programmatic manner. While the Wikipedia article is an HTML page, so basically it is the final destination for a program. Only human can read it and go father from it manually. Best regards, Oleksiy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
sent from a phone > On 6. Dec 2019, at 15:16, pangoSE wrote: > > I believe that we should deprecate all wikipedia links as they are just > potentially obsolete cruft that can be inferred from the wikidata item. (I am > also an editor of Wikidata) > > If you really want the Wikipedia link displayed fix your editor to fetch the > local wikipedia link (if any) for your local language in addition to the > label and description. > I know that people are assuming that a wikipedia article in language x has approximately the same content as another one in language y that is linked to it, but this is not the case. There are often significant differences, even if many articles are translations from the English version. Wikidata is another thing. It all started with one wikidata object for every article, but as the project grows and people edit it (yes, not only bots are editing wikidata), their objects get split and refined (subgroups of objects). A common example are settlements. In wikipedia, political and socio-geographic entities are often covered in the same article (or they are combined in one language and split in another). In wikidata (and even more in OpenStreetMap), these tend to get split over several objects. Wikipedia tends to aggregate several aspects of a thing into one article, wikidata tends to separating the concepts. If someone adds a wikipedia link for something, you can see by the language which specific article she has read and linked (confirmed). It does not automatically imply that all wikipedia articles in other languages would also fit for the OpenStreetMap object that has gotten the tag. Even less for wikidata (which usually only deals with part of an article, which is not necessarily the one which fits for the object). Just have a look, it happens all the time, another typical case for issues are buildings and things inside the buildings (museums, governments, whatever). Maybe it is less of an issue with natural places (mountains, seas, etc), but in the cultural world it is almost ubiquitous. Cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
sent from a phone > On 6. Dec 2019, at 10:36, Oleksiy Muzalyev > wrote: > > For many geographical names there are articles in the Latin version of > Wikipedia. For example, for the Black Sea: > https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontus_Euxinus it is a very short article, compared to currently spoken languages, but what is most disappointing, there isn’t a single latin source for information in the article ;-) I doubt there’s any useful outcome of latin articles in WP, more a kind of academic exercise Cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
W dniu 19-12-06 o 17:40, Steve Doerr pisze: > This will take some research, but... > > Many of these names will be translations or transliterations of one > particular name first attested in one particular language. So, 'Black > Sea' is likely to be a translation of some name in a different > language and which has subsequently been translated into multiple > other languages. Therefore, the name tag could contain the name in > this original language, provided it is clearly the name that has been > widely translated into other languages. (This is to avoid Ancient > Greek and Latin names that do not correspond to the modern name in > most languages.) > EO Tio ne eblas, ni devus studi etimologion de ĉiuj maroj kaj tio kaŭzus konfliktojn, ekz: https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balta_Maro#Nomoj_de_la_Balta_maro_en_lingvoj_de_apudaj_landoj PL To nie jest możliwe, musielibyśmy przestudiować etymologię wszystkich nazw, co i tak powodowałoby konflikty: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morze_Ba%C5%82tyckie#Nazwa EN It is not possible, we would have to study the etymology of all names, which would still cause conflicts. https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/7018186114/history EO Por Kaspio mi enigis nomojn en (apenaŭ) 5 lingvoj de apudaj landoj, 5 ligiloj al Vikipedioj; la mapigisto “luiswoo“ en la sekva redakto forigis ilin ĉiujn. Kion faru pri objektoj kiuj apudas kun NENIU lando (ekz. maroj de Suda Oceano aŭ kontinentoj), iu proponis nomi ilin en 6 lingvoj de Unuiĝintaj Nacioj, do Sudameriko estus en la arabo lingvo, kvankam ĝi estas parolata en neniu lando de ĝi? PL Dla Morza Kaspijskiego wpisałem (zaledwie) 5 języków sąsiadujących krajów i 5 odnośników do Wikipedii; mapowicz „luiswoo” w następnej edycji usunął je wszystkie. Co zrobić z obiektami graniczącymi z ŻADNYM państwem (np. morza Oceanu Południowego czy też kontynenty), ktoś zaproponował nazwanie ich w 6 językach ONZ, więc Ameryka Południowa miałaby nazwę w języku arabskim, chociaż nie jest on oficjalnym językiem jakiegokolwiek kraju tam? EN For the Caspian Sea I have (only) included 5 languages of neighboring countries and 5 links to Wikipedia; mapper "luiswoo" in the next edition removed them all. What to do with not objects bordering ANY state (e.g. the seas of the Southern Ocean or continents), someone proposed to name them in 6 languages of the United Nations, so South America would have a name in Arabic, although it is not the official language of any country there? <>___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
This will take some research, but... Many of these names will be translations or transliterations of one particular name first attested in one particular language. So, 'Black Sea' is likely to be a translation of some name in a different language and which has subsequently been translated into multiple other languages. Therefore, the name tag could contain the name in this original language, provided it is clearly the name that has been widely translated into other languages. (This is to avoid Ancient Greek and Latin names that do not correspond to the modern name in most languages.) -- Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
I agree with Oleksiy. If you see Qxxx numbers in your editor ONLY it is the editor that should be fixed to fetch the label/description in the local language (of the browser, JOSM, or whatever tool you access our data through). I believe that we should deprecate all wikipedia links as they are just potentially obsolete cruft that can be inferred from the wikidata item. (I am also an editor of Wikidata) If you really want the Wikipedia link displayed fix your editor to fetch the local wikipedia link (if any) for your local language in addition to the label and description. amike salutas pangoSE On 2019-12-06 12:27, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote: At least in the JOSM editor there is an additional text in English near the wikidata code-title. Since the wikidata title (or name) is usually translated on the wikidata page itself in different languages and it is a part of the accessible database, this text could be in different languages in a map editor. If there is no translation of the wikidata item in a particular language, one can add it, even if there is no Wikipedia article in this language. The wikidata also contains the description and the alternative name. So basically having the wikidata code-name, it is possible to display the name and even the description in any language of choice in a map editor. So wikidata makes makes it technically possible to implement the modern principle stating that the true international language is the translation. Best regards, Oleksiy On 06-Dec-19 11:25, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: Yes, wikidata tag may be useful but it is an alphanumeric gibberish not readable by humans. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
At least in the JOSM editor there is an additional text in English near the wikidata code-title. Since the wikidata title (or name) is usually translated on the wikidata page itself in different languages and it is a part of the accessible database, this text could be in different languages in a map editor. If there is no translation of the wikidata item in a particular language, one can add it, even if there is no Wikipedia article in this language. The wikidata also contains the description and the alternative name. So basically having the wikidata code-name, it is possible to display the name and even the description in any language of choice in a map editor. So wikidata makes makes it technically possible to implement the modern principle stating that the true international language is the translation. Best regards, Oleksiy On 06-Dec-19 11:25, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: Yes, wikidata tag may be useful but it is an alphanumeric gibberish not readable by humans. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
6 Dec 2019, 09:55 by dieterdre...@gmail.com: > > Am Fr., 6. Dez. 2019 um 08:08 Uhr schrieb Maarten Deen <> md...@xs4all.nl> >: > >> On 2019-12-05 22:12, Tomek wrote: >> The adjacent Caspian sea is displayed as دریاچه خزر which is not the >> complete name tag (Каспийское море / Хәзәр дәнизи / دریاچه خزر) but >> looks to me the name:fa (Farsi). >> For me, that is very bad since I can not read Farsi so I don't know what >> is written there. Same applies to Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and a whole >> host of languages that do not use the latin script. >> > > > it can be done (and is already done in some context) to display names in your > own language (or another fallback) in case there aren't letters in latin > script (even an automatic transliteration at display time may be better than > not being able to read the script at all). > Yes, this is a limitation of this specific rendering. > > >> IMHO Openstreetmap does try to be politically and nation independent. >> >> Still, it is a Good Idea to have one standard (language) to communicate >> or define things, like everything meant for an international public in >> the wiki is English and the tag system is English. >> > > > you should argue why it is a good idea to have _one_ standard language in the > project. IMHO it excludes many billions of people from participating > While it is problematic it is hard for me to imagine a better version. I am pretty sure that for example using Polish/Korean/etc words where English one exists would not help. > but I am not sure we could not do better at integrating people from different > cultural contexts. > Oh, that is certainly possible to improve. > It is also a sign we are sending out to the others, whether there is "the > main language English", or whether we communicate that every language is > accepted. > While current situation excludes from this specific mailing list people unable to communicate in written English I doubt that "any language goes" would improve overall situation. Separate channels for various languages seem to be a better idea. >> > Suggestion 2b: use the name in a neutral language, i.e. planned or >> > extinct: Lingvo Internacia Esperanto (EO), Interlingua (IA), Ido (IO), >> > Latin (LA), I don't know Latin, so I would need help. >> > > > none of these is "neutral" and more importantly, none of these seems > "inclusive" and suitable to broaden participation, they are all either > elitist, or at least spoken by very little people, and likely both. > +1 And it would be kind of weird to decide that English is imperialistic therefore we should use Latin to avoid this specific problem. >> > for other places: >> > Suggestion 4a: remove the label "wikipedia" and leave only "wikidata", >> >> I agree that it is strange to have (e.g. for the Caspian Sea >> multipolygon 3987743) wikipedia=en:Caspian Sea when it is not in >> England. Is there a reason for that other than historic? Since there is >> also a wikidata link. >> > > > I am strongly opposing the idea of removing wikipedia article links when > there are wikidata feature links. The former are human readable > Yes, wikidata tag may be useful but it is an alphanumeric gibberish not readable by humans. Human readable tags are very useful, this way human is able to easier verify whatever tags are blatantly wrong. And based on my experience - English language link may be a compromise. Some border peaks/rivers of Poland have also link to English wikipedia as a compromise between mappers from Poland and Ukraine/Belarus/Russia/Chechia/etc. It is better than switching between pl: and ru: link in a pointless edit war. >> > Suggestion 4b: add links in a neutral language: wikipedia=ia: Mar >> > Nigre >> >> Why is Anguilla a neutral language? >> + 1 > > Suggestion 4c: add more links, but in which languages? > > > if "links" is about wikipedia article references, there is already the rule > that one link is sufficient where the other language article is linked as > corresponding in wikipedia. > +1 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
Often people may think that they speak English, but in fact they do not speak it good enough. English seems to be an easy language, but it is as difficult as it gets. Its real complexity is in numerous idiomatic expressions. I would say a person speak English if she/he sat and passed the exam for the C1 or C2 level certificate. For example, CAE or CPE. It would be interesting to know the statistics of how many people in the continental Europe have got the C1 or C2 levels. (ref.) https://www.cambridgeenglish.org/exams-and-tests/advanced/ https://www.cambridgeenglish.org/exams-and-tests/proficiency/ Best regards, Oleksiy On 12/6/19 09:55, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: ... It is convenient for us Europeans, because most of us are able to communicate in English, ... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
Hi, On 06.12.19 09:55, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > you should argue why it is a good idea to have _one_ standard language > in the project. IMHO it excludes many billions of people from > participating, Let's be careful with the word "exclude". Does the pizzeria around the corner "exclude" billions of people from eating there because its menu is written only in Italian? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
On 2019-12-06 09:55, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Am Fr., 6. Dez. 2019 um 08:08 Uhr schrieb Maarten Deen : On 2019-12-05 22:12, Tomek wrote: Still, it is a Good Idea to have one standard (language) to communicate or define things, like everything meant for an international public in the wiki is English and the tag system is English. you should argue why it is a good idea to have _one_ standard language in the project. IMHO it excludes many billions of people from Depens on what you use it for. I'm sure you're not arguing for having tag names in chinese. These are all in (UK) English. The same goes for the majority of the wiki pages geared towards the basis of this project. Sure, there are translations (and that is good), but the English page is usually the guideline. I see nothing bad in that. Yes, it implies that you need to be relatively proficient in English to be able to contribute there, but what is the alternative? Going to Esperanto or Chinese will put more people off the project than it will attract. Why is this list called OSM-talk and not OSM-talk-gb? Because it is the main list. And we speak english here. for other places: Suggestion 4a: remove the label "wikipedia" and leave only "wikidata", I agree that it is strange to have (e.g. for the Caspian Sea multipolygon 3987743) wikipedia=en:Caspian Sea when it is not in England. Is there a reason for that other than historic? Since there is also a wikidata link. I am strongly opposing the idea of removing wikipedia article links when there are wikidata feature links. The former are human readable and mostly (?) the original data that the mapper added, the latter are often automatically derived (from wikipedia article references), worse verified, link to a less mature project (a wikidata entity to which I link today may change its nature significantly until tomorrow), are not human readable and a typo in just one digit makes them completely worseless, and there is no 1:1 relation of wikipedia articles and wikidata objects (this is btw. a serious problem which I do not know why the wikidata community doesn't address, they seem to assume that there is just one wikipedia article for one wikidata object and vice versa). I'm not so active in the wikidata project to have seen these problems. I was looking at the Caspian Sea and saw a wikidata link that has 175 wikipedia links in it. Yes, you can get that too by opening the English wikipedia page page, but that again does nothing against the "English dominance" argument. But then again, the wikidata page also does not do that because it is in English only. Please also note that "wikipedia:en" is not about "England", it is the It is not about England, it is about the perceived English dominance of the project. knowledge of the world collected in the English language (btw. it is the wikipedia version with most articles). With all Precisely. So I found your comment "you should argue why it is a good idea to have _one_ standard language in the project." a bit odd. Why is that English knowledge better than the wikipedia:cn page? Just because it is English? The fact of the matter is that a brit started the project, that alone gives a lot of credibility to using English as native language for the project. Above and beyond that, English just is the main language, at least of the western world. And that has nothing to do with wanting to rule the world. I'm not British or American and I'm perfectly ok with this situation. And lets face it, if a Chinese person had started this, most of us probably would not have know about it because it was all in Chinese. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
For many geographical names there are articles in the Latin version of Wikipedia. For example, for the Black Sea: https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontus_Euxinus for Poland: https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonia , for Canada: https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada , etc. So if one wishes to add a name in Latin, i.e. name:la in the editor, it is possible just to look it up in the Latin version of Wikipedia. The Latin language was widely used in the cartography and in science in general over the past centuries. For example Isaac Newton's book "Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica", one of the most important works in the history of science, was published in 1687 in Latin. And it is still used in science nowadays. The legacy of the Rēs pūblica Rōmāna & Imperium Rōmānum, including its language, is so enormous that it can never get extinct. At the same time the Latin does not have a standing army any more. So it is indeed kind of neutral. What is beneficial and safer for mappers in some parts. Besides the name in Latin is often recognizable for people who speak English, French, German, etc. Even for people from the Cyrillic, Chinese, Korean, etc. background it is often also understandable, since the Latin alphabet is studied at the elementary school. Please, note that the titles of some Wikipedia articles change from time to time. The titles of wikidata items change much less frequently. By adding the wikidata tag we add also the Wikipedia articles indirectly, since the links to articles in all available language versions are present on the wikidata page. Besides, a wikidata item is a part of the database, so it is also machine-readable, while a Wikipedia article is just an HTML page intended for reading by humans. Best regards, Oleksiy Suggestion 2b: use the name in a neutral language, i.e. planned or extinct: Lingvo Internacia Esperanto (EO), Interlingua (IA), Ido (IO), Latin (LA), I don't know Latin, so I would need help. Suggestion 2b: use the name in a neutral language ... or extinct: ... Latin (LA), I don't know Latin, so I would need help. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
Am Fr., 6. Dez. 2019 um 08:08 Uhr schrieb Maarten Deen : > On 2019-12-05 22:12, Tomek wrote: > The adjacent Caspian sea is displayed as دریاچه خزر which is not the > complete name tag (Каспийское море / Хәзәр дәнизи / دریاچه خزر) but > looks to me the name:fa (Farsi). > For me, that is very bad since I can not read Farsi so I don't know what > is written there. Same applies to Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and a whole > host of languages that do not use the latin script. it can be done (and is already done in some context) to display names in your own language (or another fallback) in case there aren't letters in latin script (even an automatic transliteration at display time may be better than not being able to read the script at all). IMHO Openstreetmap does try to be politically and nation independent. > > Still, it is a Good Idea to have one standard (language) to communicate > or define things, like everything meant for an international public in > the wiki is English and the tag system is English. > you should argue why it is a good idea to have _one_ standard language in the project. IMHO it excludes many billions of people from participating, and confirms the Anglo-Saxon dominance in the tech world also in the mapping world. It is convenient for us Europeans, because most of us are able to communicate in English, but I am not sure we could not do better at integrating people from different cultural contexts. It is also a sign we are sending out to the others, whether there is "the main language English", or whether we communicate that every language is accepted. In practical terms, I agree it is hard to imagine how you and me could contribute to a proposal in Chinese, Farsi or even Swahili. Also reducing the "any language" to "the UN languages" would bring in serious (currently unsurmountable) overhead if we required for instance proposals to be translated into all UN languages. > > > Suggestion 2b: use the name in a neutral language, i.e. planned or > > extinct: Lingvo Internacia Esperanto (EO), Interlingua (IA), Ido (IO), > > Latin (LA), I don't know Latin, so I would need help. > none of these is "neutral" and more importantly, none of these seems "inclusive" and suitable to broaden participation, they are all either elitist, or at least spoken by very little people, and likely both. From a practical point of view, most people worldwide are able to communicate in English and Mandarin Chinese, according to SIL International, 2019, there's just a 20 Million difference in favor of English speakers, and there is three times more people with Chinese as mothertongue). Following in this list [1], there is with roughly half the speakers, Hindi and Spanish. Again half of these, French, Arabic, Bengali, Russian, then Portugese, Indonesian, then Urdu, then German and Japanese, followed by Swahili as the first language below 100 Million speakers, and so on. > > Suggestion 3: for a place with fewer names, I suggest using several > > labels: > > wikipedia: ru = Чёрное море + wikipedia: ro = Marea Neagră, > > What have wikipedia article links to do with "labels"? > > for other places: > > Suggestion 4a: remove the label "wikipedia" and leave only "wikidata", > > I agree that it is strange to have (e.g. for the Caspian Sea > multipolygon 3987743) wikipedia=en:Caspian Sea when it is not in > England. Is there a reason for that other than historic? Since there is > also a wikidata link. > I am strongly opposing the idea of removing wikipedia article links when there are wikidata feature links. The former are human readable and mostly (?) the original data that the mapper added, the latter are often automatically derived (from wikipedia article references), worse verified, link to a less mature project (a wikidata entity to which I link today may change its nature significantly until tomorrow), are not human readable and a typo in just one digit makes them completely worseless, and there is no 1:1 relation of wikipedia articles and wikidata objects (this is btw. a serious problem which I do not know why the wikidata community doesn't address, they seem to assume that there is just one wikipedia article for one wikidata object and vice versa). Please also note that "wikipedia:en" is not about "England", it is the knowledge of the world collected in the English language (btw. it is the wikipedia version with most articles). With all > > > Suggestion 4b: add links in a neutral language: wikipedia=ia: Mar > > Nigre > > Why is Anguilla a neutral language? Mar Nigre looks French to me, why is > that a neutral language? Should it be Esperanto? Why would that be a > neutral language since it is > written in latin alphabet? Also Esperanto to me seems more like a > western language than an eastern/asian language. it is clearly a Roman language (intended as somehow strongly related to/derived from Latin), as is Esperanto and probably many more (e.g. interlingua sounds so as well). None of these
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
On 2019-12-05 22:12, Tomek wrote:
EN:
In what language should the names of interstate objects be: seas /
bays, continents, oceans, poles? They are not currently displayed on
the default map(1), programs (e.g. OsmAnd, iD and JOSM editors) use
the name:LANGUAGE label, so the content of the "name" label is
ideological only, not practical.
I disagree that the name tag is ideological. Maybe you use the wrong
word and meant theoretical?
Currently they are in English, which cannot be accepted, Great Britain
and the USA are not masters of the whole world.
As I don't know where the nodes are I can not check if your comment is
correct, but while I understand your problem, this seems more like a
frustrated rant.
Suggestion 1: for smaller seas, I suggest adding names in all official
/ main languages of adjacent countries, so instead of "Black
Sea" there will be:
Karadeniz Marea Neagră Чорне море | Черно море |
Чёрное море | შავი ზღვა
I get nothing displayed at the Black Sea. It is only defined by the
coastline, there is no (multi)polygon defining its boundaries. Is there
a node?
The adjacent Caspian sea is displayed as دریاچه خزر which is not the
complete name tag (Каспийское море / Хәзәр дәнизи / دریاچه خزر) but
looks to me the name:fa (Farsi).
For me, that is very bad since I can not read Farsi so I don't know what
is written there. Same applies to Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and a whole
host of languages that do not use the latin script. So your described
problem does not limit itself to non-English speakers, it also applies
to the same Brits and US Americans that you rant about being the masters
of the world.
IMHO Openstreetmap does try to be politically and nation independent.
Still, it is a Good Idea to have one standard (language) to communicate
or define things, like everything meant for an international public in
the wiki is English and the tag system is English.
For larger seas (with more neighboring countries, so the name would
exceed the 255 character limit in OSM) and for continents, oceans and
poles you need to come up with something else:
Suggestion 2a: remove the "name" tag completely
It should be looked at if this is a viable option. JOSM already uses the
localized names to display names in JOSM itself. E.g. the afore
mentioned multipolygon for the Caspian Sea displays as "multipolygon
("Caspian Sea", 80 members, incomplete) [id: 3.987.743]" for me. It does
not show the name tag.
For me that is usually the best option. It would be great if this could
be extended to the main map, but for that you would probably need to
make a different captions overlay.
Suggestion 2b: use the name in a neutral language, i.e. planned or
extinct: Lingvo Internacia Esperanto (EO), Interlingua (IA), Ido (IO),
Latin (LA), I don't know Latin, so I would need help.
Does that solve the non-latin alphabets? I don't know if their
understanding of the latin alphabet is as bad as my understanding of the
non-latin alphabets.
How can I resolve a problem with the "wikipedia" label?
There is a wikidata label, but that only defines what it is, not what
name should be rendered.
Suggestion 3: for a place with fewer names, I suggest using several
labels:
wikipedia: ru = Чёрное море + wikipedia: ro = Marea Neagră,
And which of those will be on the map?
for other places:
Suggestion 4a: remove the label "wikipedia" and leave only "wikidata",
I agree that it is strange to have (e.g. for the Caspian Sea
multipolygon 3987743) wikipedia=en:Caspian Sea when it is not in
England. Is there a reason for that other than historic? Since there is
also a wikidata link.
Suggestion 4b: add links in a neutral language: wikipedia=ia: Mar
Nigre
Why is Anguilla a neutral language? Mar Nigre looks French to me, why is
that a neutral language?
Should it be Esperanto? Why would that be a neutral language since it is
written in latin alphabet? Also Esperanto to me seems more like a
western language than an eastern/asian language.
Suggestion 4c: add more links, but in which languages?
1. unless mapped as relation with other tags (natural = bay/water),
but the woodpecker user deleted the relation for the Black Sea:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7160849/history
It is better to link to the changeset, because that gives a comment and
can be loaded easily:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/77922074
I'm not sure if I agree with the reason of deletion. Currently there is
no name displayed and finding the node is difficult.
Your problem is a universal problem on any platform that spans the globe
and IMHO there is no one answer to it. For one I would love to see all
name tags rendered in something I can at least read (i.e. latin script).
For that I frequently have to use the transport map layer so I can at
least read what city in China (for example) I'm looking at.
Regards,
Maarten
___
talk mailing list
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
sent from a phone > On 6. Dec 2019, at 00:55, Tomek wrote: > > EO: Mi pensis, ke tio ĉi estas internacia forumo/dissendolisto. > PL: Myślałem, że to jest międzynarodowe forum/lista potremmo creare una lista OSM-babel dove tutti scrivono come li pare Ciao Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
EO: Mi pensis, ke tio ĉi estas internacia forumo/dissendolisto. PL: Myślałem, że to jest międzynarodowe forum/lista. W dniu 19-12-05 o 23:52, Mateusz Konieczny pisze: > > 5 Dec 2019, 22:12 by to...@disroot.org: > > EO: > PL: > > Note that it is an English language forum. > > You may ask for help with translation > from Polish to English at > https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=23 > > Or you can initially discuss this proposal there, > other mappers may have a useful feedback. > > --- > the same content in Polish: > > Akurat tutaj używany jest język angielski. > > Jeśli potrzebujesz pomocy z tłumaczeniem na angielski to możesz > poprosić o pomoc na > https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=23 > > Myślę że warto tam też przedyskutować > ten pomysł, inni mapujący mogą > mieć warte uwzględnienia przemyślenia. > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk <>___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
> for smaller seas, I suggest adding names in all official / main languages > of adjacent countries, so instead of "Black Sea" there will be: Karadeniz Marea Neagră Чорне море | Черно море | Чёрное море | შავი ზღვა That's fine. > For larger seas (with more neighboring countries, so the name would exceed > the 255 character limit in OSM) and for continents, oceans and poles you need > to come up with something else I'd suggest using the 6 main United Nations languages for the "name=*" tag of Oceans and Continents: Arabic, Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish. But there is no perfect solution, and as mentioned, most database users will want to pick a localized name of the form "name:=" so these tags should be added. - Joseph Eisenberg On 12/5/19, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > 5 Dec 2019, 22:12 by to...@disroot.org: > >> EO: >> PL: >> > Note that it is an English language forum. > > You may ask for help with translation > from Polish to English at > https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=23 > > Or you can initially discuss this proposal there, > other mappers may have a useful feedback. > > --- > the same content in Polish: > > Akurat tutaj używany jest język angielski. > > Jeśli potrzebujesz pomocy z tłumaczeniem na angielski to możesz > poprosić o pomoc na > https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=23 > > Myślę że warto tam też przedyskutować > ten pomysł, inni mapujący mogąmieć warte uwzględnienia przemyślenia. > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects
5 Dec 2019, 22:12 by to...@disroot.org: > EO: > PL: > Note that it is an English language forum. You may ask for help with translation from Polish to English at https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=23 Or you can initially discuss this proposal there, other mappers may have a useful feedback. --- the same content in Polish: Akurat tutaj używany jest język angielski. Jeśli potrzebujesz pomocy z tłumaczeniem na angielski to możesz poprosić o pomoc na https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=23 Myślę że warto tam też przedyskutować ten pomysł, inni mapujący mogąmieć warte uwzględnienia przemyślenia. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
