Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
Gert, the same problems you attribute to OSM are valid for TomTom (TeleAtlas) as well. But don't believe me, I provide OSM Garmin maps for almost 5 years now, so I'm probably 'too forgiving with my baby'. It's the users of these maps that disagree with you. A few recent quotes from OSM Garmin map users who emailed to say thanks: I travelled for 40 days in 7 different countries in South America abd found the Garmin Maps very helpful. I was driving last week through the netherlands and it went very well! Thanks for your support. The person of the last quote also notified me of an erroneous turn restriction, which has been fixed in the next update only two weeks later. For free. I guess TomTom does this much better, no? Gert, please try to contribute in a positive way. The project really won't get better with non-constructive criticisms. Perhaps you are simply happier with a commercial TomTom map? We will certainly be happier without the constant negative vibes. In interesting read on personalities and OpenSource projects: http://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=66 On 30-5-2012 17:21, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote: TomTom is right, OSM is still a immature product. That may change, but it isn't yet. But for a few Garmins serious routing on OSM is a hazardous enterprise. Even in the Netherlands, one of the countries with a high completion rate, road classification is NOT consistent, so are the deafault traffic rules that go with it. A router may find a route, but that is it. No comfort, no lanes, no direction signs, no traffic lights, and no obstruction warnings. Many roads (albethem small ones) are still marked pedestrian, and inhibit a car router to reach destination. Cycle roads are tagged inconsistently or plain faulty, and there are many ,many real errors. At the time, before OSMF told me to stop correcting the map for something as trivial as a license, I found errors on every 20 roads on average. Not all fatal, but enough to make me turn to Google Navigon or TomTom to get me at my destination. Those who state the contrary are too forgiving with their baby. And yes as Greg says, you may correct the errors, but when you're done correcting the error, you do not need OSM anymore to get there !!! Regards, Gert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
I recently travelled in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Montenegro thanks to the maps of Lambertus (OSM). We never got lost and I only had to make some few coorections (roundabouts, etc) and add a road. we would never had found our way without OSM and the good work of Lambertus. On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Lambertus o...@na1400.info wrote: Gert, the same problems you attribute to OSM are valid for TomTom (TeleAtlas) as well. But don't believe me, I provide OSM Garmin maps for almost 5 years now, so I'm probably 'too forgiving with my baby'. It's the users of these maps that disagree with you. A few recent quotes from OSM Garmin map users who emailed to say thanks: I travelled for 40 days in 7 different countries in South America abd found the Garmin Maps very helpful. I was driving last week through the netherlands and it went very well! Thanks for your support. The person of the last quote also notified me of an erroneous turn restriction, which has been fixed in the next update only two weeks later. For free. I guess TomTom does this much better, no? Gert, please try to contribute in a positive way. The project really won't get better with non-constructive criticisms. Perhaps you are simply happier with a commercial TomTom map? We will certainly be happier without the constant negative vibes. In interesting read on personalities and OpenSource projects: http://www.zdziarski.com/blog/**?p=66http://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=66 On 30-5-2012 17:21, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote: TomTom is right, OSM is still a immature product. That may change, but it isn't yet. But for a few Garmins serious routing on OSM is a hazardous enterprise. Even in the Netherlands, one of the countries with a high completion rate, road classification is NOT consistent, so are the deafault traffic rules that go with it. A router may find a route, but that is it. No comfort, no lanes, no direction signs, no traffic lights, and no obstruction warnings. Many roads (albethem small ones) are still marked pedestrian, and inhibit a car router to reach destination. Cycle roads are tagged inconsistently or plain faulty, and there are many ,many real errors. At the time, before OSMF told me to stop correcting the map for something as trivial as a license, I found errors on every 20 roads on average. Not all fatal, but enough to make me turn to Google Navigon or TomTom to get me at my destination. Those who state the contrary are too forgiving with their baby. And yes as Greg says, you may correct the errors, but when you're done correcting the error, you do not need OSM anymore to get there !!! Regards, Gert __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 2:15 AM, Lambertus o...@na1400.info wrote: A few recent quotes from OSM Garmin map users who emailed to say thanks: I travelled for 40 days in 7 different countries in South America abd found the Garmin Maps very helpful. I was driving last week through the netherlands and it went very well! Thanks for your support. Speaking of, I noticed there hasn't been a new snapshot in a while onw. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
* John Sturdy jcg.stu...@gmail.com [2012-05-29 09:15 +0100]: The nearest they make to an accurate point is classification of footpaths as roads --- I don't think I've seen any of those, but I have found quite a few unclassified roads that look more like tracks on Bing (and have adjusted them accordingly where confident of it). I don't know if this is what they're talking about, but the TIGER data in the US has more than a few footways, particularly wider, paved ones, recorded as roads, which got imported into OSM as highway=residential. (There are a lot of logging roads, 4x4 trails, and similarly difficult-to-travel things also classified highway=residential.) I fix them as I find them, naturally, but it's a flaw in the TIGER dataset (which I still think we're better off having imported). -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- Londo, are you deliberately trying to drive me insane? The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant. -- Vir and Londo (Babylon 5, Dust to Dust) --- -- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
Maarten Deen wrote: Well, probably one of the very positive effects from OSM is the fact that when we start mapping something, the closed-source mappers follow suit. The fact that Google needs to add gimmicks like kajak routing across the pacific to beat us says enough. It's a win-win situation. When my TomTom starts actually providing correct information then perhaps they can start to complain, but many routes I follow using TomTom I have to KNOW when to ignore what it's telling me! I've given up bothering to flag the problems, but if I HAD an OSM map on the device then I would get back to fixing the errors! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
John Sturdy jcg.stu...@gmail.com writes: On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote: To be honest, if a road has no classification, and is made of mud and gravel, it's a track... The ones I reclassified typically had two wheel-tracks of soil-colour and grass between them, I think. If it's asphalt-coloured, even if there is grass growing down the middle, I still call it a road. I think the real issue between road and track is whether it's a public way or private way (both roads) vs just someplace where one can physically drive a vehicle. In Massachusetts, both private and public ways are discernable by parcel boundaries, and tracks (both agricultural and within conservation) are not. Exactly what the condition is a separate issue, although typically a road will be at least a decent dirt road. pgp2z9tMV7RI2.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
TomTom is right, OSM is still a immature product. That may change, but it isn't yet. But for a few Garmins serious routing on OSM is a hazardous enterprise. Even in the Netherlands, one of the countries with a high completion rate, road classification is NOT consistent, so are the deafault traffic rules that go with it. A router may find a route, but that is it. No comfort, no lanes, no direction signs, no traffic lights, and no obstruction warnings. Many roads (albethem small ones) are still marked pedestrian, and inhibit a car router to reach destination. Cycle roads are tagged inconsistently or plain faulty, and there are many ,many real errors. At the time, before OSMF told me to stop correcting the map for something as trivial as a license, I found errors on every 20 roads on average. Not all fatal, but enough to make me turn to Google Navigon or TomTom to get me at my destination. Those who state the contrary are too forgiving with their baby. And yes as Greg says, you may correct the errors, but when you're done correcting the error, you do not need OSM anymore to get there !!! Regards, Gert -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Greg Troxel [mailto:g...@ir.bbn.com] Verzonden: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 5:00 PM Aan: John Sturdy CC: talk@openstreetmap.org Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us John Sturdy jcg.stu...@gmail.com writes: On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote: To be honest, if a road has no classification, and is made of mud and gravel, it's a track... The ones I reclassified typically had two wheel-tracks of soil-colour and grass between them, I think. If it's asphalt-coloured, even if there is grass growing down the middle, I still call it a road. I think the real issue between road and track is whether it's a public way or private way (both roads) vs just someplace where one can physically drive a vehicle. In Massachusetts, both private and public ways are discernable by parcel boundaries, and tracks (both agricultural and within conservation) are not. Exactly what the condition is a separate issue, although typically a road will be at least a decent dirt road. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
Whatever. I've certainly seen footpaths classified as roads in commercial online maps for instance. This is a very one sided argument and assumes that commercial online maps are accurate. It also completely neglects the fact that you can use OSM data without a fee andf without someone telling you what you can and cannot do with it. I'd imagine they're running scared at the move away from the restrictive, closed-source model for electronic data. Nick -Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote: - To: talk@openstreetmap.org From: Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl Date: 29/05/2012 08:45AM Subject: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us Ok, they don't name us, but I think a leading open source map does refer to us. http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/licensing/newsletter/201205/didyouknow/ Oh wauw. We're not perfect. Let's close up the shop. Thanks to SteveC for all the effort, but it wasn't enough. Well, probably one of the very positive effects from OSM is the fact that when we start mapping something, the closed-source mappers follow suit. The fact that Google needs to add gimmicks like kajak routing across the pacific to beat us says enough. It's a win-win situation. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote: Ok, they don't name us, but I think a leading open source map does refer to us. http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/licensing/newsletter/201205/didyouknow/ Oh wauw. We're not perfect. Let's close up the shop. Thanks to SteveC for all the effort, but it wasn't enough. Well, probably one of the very positive effects from OSM is the fact that when we start mapping something, the closed-source mappers follow suit. The fact that Google needs to add gimmicks like kajak routing across the pacific to beat us says enough. It's a win-win situation. It looks like we're getting to the point where the closed-source mappers are starting to see us as serious competition. If the best they can do is that In one particular instance (presumably chosen to make their point as well as possible) we've got a third less residential road coverage and 16% less basic map attributes we're well on the way (especially the second part of that). Also, having said that the community is a drawback for Open Source, they then claim their community as an advantage! I doubt that their specialists really go out and check each correction that's sent in; I expect we do more (implicit) checking, as vandalism is reported and undone. I wonder whether their comment on pedestrians and in city or town centres can be taken as conceding that we're doing better than them in those areas? The nearest they make to an accurate point is classification of footpaths as roads --- I don't think I've seen any of those, but I have found quite a few unclassified roads that look more like tracks on Bing (and have adjusted them accordingly where confident of it). __John ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
Nick Whitelegg wrote: Whatever. I've certainly seen footpaths classified as roads in commercial online maps for instance. It's basically a misreading of how OSM data works. Essentially they're saying that the fact we use the highway=track tag means OMG OSM MISCLASSIFIES FOREST TRACKS AS HIGHWAYS. *facepalm* I've written a bit more about it at http://www.systemeD.net/blog/index.php?post=23 cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/TomTom-is-thumping-us-tp5710461p5710467.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
Certainly Apple mark footpaths as roads in the data that they have used from us, but that's a rendering issue, not a data issue. Tom Davie On 29 May 2012, at 09:14, Nick Whitelegg wrote: Whatever. I've certainly seen footpaths classified as roads in commercial online maps for instance. This is a very one sided argument and assumes that commercial online maps are accurate. It also completely neglects the fact that you can use OSM data without a fee andf without someone telling you what you can and cannot do with it. I'd imagine they're running scared at the move away from the restrictive, closed-source model for electronic data. Nick -Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote: - To: talk@openstreetmap.org From: Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl Date: 29/05/2012 08:45AM Subject: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us Ok, they don't name us, but I think a leading open source map does refer to us. http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/licensing/newsletter/201205/didyouknow/ Oh wauw. We're not perfect. Let's close up the shop. Thanks to SteveC for all the effort, but it wasn't enough. Well, probably one of the very positive effects from OSM is the fact that when we start mapping something, the closed-source mappers follow suit. The fact that Google needs to add gimmicks like kajak routing across the pacific to beat us says enough. It's a win-win situation. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
2012/5/29 John Sturdy jcg.stu...@gmail.com: footpaths as roads --- I don't think I've seen any of those, but I have found quite a few unclassified roads that look more like tracks on Bing (and have adjusted them accordingly where confident of it). +1 to the rest, but I don't think we should change classification of roads from unclassified to track based on aerial imagery. There are unpaved unclassified roads also in Europe (I guess in all countries you might find them at least in very remote areas). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
To be honest, if a road has no classification, and is made of mud and gravel, it's a track... If it's an official road in some way, then clearly it is classified ;) Thanks Tom Davie On 29 May 2012, at 09:32, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2012/5/29 John Sturdy jcg.stu...@gmail.com: footpaths as roads --- I don't think I've seen any of those, but I have found quite a few unclassified roads that look more like tracks on Bing (and have adjusted them accordingly where confident of it). +1 to the rest, but I don't think we should change classification of roads from unclassified to track based on aerial imagery. There are unpaved unclassified roads also in Europe (I guess in all countries you might find them at least in very remote areas). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote: To be honest, if a road has no classification, and is made of mud and gravel, it's a track... The ones I reclassified typically had two wheel-tracks of soil-colour and grass between them, I think. If it's asphalt-coloured, even if there is grass growing down the middle, I still call it a road. __John ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
On 29/05/2012 08:44, Maarten Deen wrote: Ok, they don't name us, but I think a leading open source map does refer to us. http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/licensing/newsletter/201205/didyouknow/ Sounds like they're scared to me. With them looking over their shoulders at OSM, it means their taking their eye off the ball. The best thing for OSM mappers is to keep on mapping. we harness the local knowledge of our 60 million satnav customers, How are the village pond footpath that's goes past it being mapped when their customers are travelling at 70mph on the nearby motorway? Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
On 29 May 2012 08:44, Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote: Ok, they don't name us, but I think a leading open source map does refer to us. http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/licensing/newsletter/201205/didyouknow/ RichardF has a comprehensive slap down of their FUD: http://www.systemed.net/blog/index.php?post=23 Also hit Slashdot earlier today: http://news.slashdot.org/story/12/05/29/019213/tomtom-flames-openstreetmap / Grant ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 5:44 PM, Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote: Ok, they don't name us, but I think a leading open source map does refer to us. http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/licensing/newsletter/201205/didyouknow/ I think the most interesting part of this is actually direct criticism from our commercial competitors. You know the Gandhi thing: First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. Sounds like we're well and truly at stage 2. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
On Tue, 2012-05-29 at 20:37 +1000, Steve Bennett wrote: http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/licensing/newsletter/201205/didyouknow/ I think the most interesting part of this is actually direct criticism from our commercial competitors. You know the Gandhi thing: First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. Sounds like we're well and truly at stage 2. looks more like stage 3 to me -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
On May 29, 2012 1:16 AM, Nick Whitelegg nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk wrote: This is a very one sided argument and assumes that commercial online maps are accurate. It also completely neglects the fact that you can use OSM data without a fee andf without someone telling you what you can and cannot do with it. I'd imagine they're running scared at the move away from the restrictive, closed-source model for electronic data. It also ignores the fact that TomTom wanted to totally own crowd sourced mapping, but they lost largely because Garmin doesn't lock us out on their devices. This reeks of sour grapes, big time. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
Hmm I seem to recall a stnav company accepting speed limit information from users and then having the problem that people set the roads in front of their houses to a speed limit of 0 so that the satnav routing would avoid it... wasn't that TomTom? Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
We'd be vulnerable to exactly the same kind of attack, right? Do we have any mechanisms to detect or prevent it? Steve On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: Hmm I seem to recall a stnav company accepting speed limit information from users and then having the problem that people set the roads in front of their houses to a speed limit of 0 so that the satnav routing would avoid it... wasn't that TomTom? Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
Steve Bennett wrote: We'd be vulnerable to exactly the same kind of attack, right? Do we have any mechanisms to detect or prevent it? Well (at the risk of stating the bleeding obvious) we can actually see data that says maxspeed=0 rather than just wondering why we never actually get routed from A to C via B. I guess it varies from place to place, but well-mapped areas tend to be effectively gardened so that odd or out of place edits get spotted at some point. It might not be immediately, but I bet it'd get spotted. People use various methods (e.g. OWL) - I use a combination of ITO's tools and something that checks for stuff I've previously edited whenever I create a new Garmin map. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TomTom is thumping us
On 29/05/12 15:29, Steve Bennett wrote: We'd be vulnerable to exactly the same kind of attack, right? Do we have any mechanisms to detect or prevent it? A community! Steve On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Toby Murraytoby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: Hmm I seem to recall a stnav company accepting speed limit information from users and then having the problem that people set the roads in front of their houses to a speed limit of 0 so that the satnav routing would avoid it... wasn't that TomTom? Toby -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
