Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain
On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 2:21 PM, Ari Torhamo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > su, 2008-05-04 kello 15:40 +0200, Mike Collinson kirjoitti: >> At 01:33 PM 4/05/2008, Ari Torhamo wrote: >> >la, 2008-05-03 kello 17:39 -0400, Ted Mielczarek kirjoitti: >> > >> >> Why else are we contributing >> >> this data if not for people to *use* it? >> > >> >I suggest you go and present this breath taking argument to RMS, and we >> >might soon get an updated, more free version of GPL. >> > >> >Ari >> >> The GPL works very well as it already allows folks to *use* software with no restriction on what they make with that use. >> >> Adding something new to GPL software source code is clearly different from using existing GPL software to do something new. That distinction is far from clear when using collations of facts like OSM data. So a different model is required. The PD argument is a very easy and elegant solution, but it makes some contributors very uncomfortable. The new license being worked on seeks to make a, hopefully, comprehensible distinction for factual data. > > OK, thanks for explaining this. I was actually just responding to > sarcasm that I didn't like, but perhaps I could have been more educated > doing it :-) (or perhaps it would be best that we weren't sarcastic to > each other at all). For what it's worth, I wasn't being sarcastic, more like exasperated. I hate seeing licensing issues confound useful activities, whether they be software, music, art, or mapping. Seeing people wasting time having a discussion about whether they can legally use something instead of spending that time doing something useful makes me sad. I apologize if I came off as sarcastic, it can be difficult to infer tone over email! Regards, -Ted ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain
On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Nathan Vander Wilt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On May 6, 2008, at 9:44 AM, Nathan Vander Wilt wrote: >> [blah, blah, blah] > > I hope that I did make my concerns clear without offending anyone too > greatly. Regardless, it would probably be more helpful to say what I > hope could be done to address my concerns, instead of just more-or- > less complaining. > > > I really would like to see a license as simple as the following: > > For data users - > 0. Open Street Map collects and creates public domain map data. > 1. Attribution of Open Street Map is expected. We make it easy. > 2. Contributing back or freely sharing modifications is strongly > encouraged. > > For map editors - > 1. Only add essentially uncopyrighted map data. > 2. You are welcome join the list of contributors. > > > > This is pretty much how the Public Domain Data Licence with Community > Norms works, right? (See > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Open_Data_License#Criticism > ) Set up community norms to say "BY-SA" and it seems like a perfect > fit for the data and (hopefully) most contributors' wishes. > > I see a lot of benefits to this, certainly over the current license, > but even over the proposed set of new licenses: > - Easy for contributors large and small to understand. > - Much easier to check existing datasets for compatibility. > - Doesn't change much for data users in the open source community. > - Enables commercial use by small companies who want to do the right > thing, but can't just ignore grey areas that leave them or their > customers liable. > - It wouldn't change much as far as abuse by large corporations, as > I'm sure their lawyers are earning more than our lawyers anyway. It > actually seems like a clearer license with more indemnity could > encourage a bigger company that is still somewhat concerned with it's > PR credibility to use the data as intended. Wouldn't the resulting > publicity do much more for OSM than a viral license? > > Right now the current and proposed licenses only seems to hurt small > businesses, who can afford neither proprietary data nor the > liabilities of the remaining grey areas. (I hope that precluding any > sort of commercial use of the data is not the intent of most > contributors.) If the data is in the public domain, sure some bad guys > might abuse it, but please don't disregard the benefit that companies > willing to follow the spirit of the community norms could bring to the > project. > > thanks, > -natevw > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > Please continue this sort of discussion on legal-talk@ http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/legal-talk -- Regards, Thomas Wood (Edgemaster) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain
On May 6, 2008, at 9:44 AM, Nathan Vander Wilt wrote: > [blah, blah, blah] I hope that I did make my concerns clear without offending anyone too greatly. Regardless, it would probably be more helpful to say what I hope could be done to address my concerns, instead of just more-or- less complaining. I really would like to see a license as simple as the following: For data users - 0. Open Street Map collects and creates public domain map data. 1. Attribution of Open Street Map is expected. We make it easy. 2. Contributing back or freely sharing modifications is strongly encouraged. For map editors - 1. Only add essentially uncopyrighted map data. 2. You are welcome join the list of contributors. This is pretty much how the Public Domain Data Licence with Community Norms works, right? (See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Open_Data_License#Criticism ) Set up community norms to say "BY-SA" and it seems like a perfect fit for the data and (hopefully) most contributors' wishes. I see a lot of benefits to this, certainly over the current license, but even over the proposed set of new licenses: - Easy for contributors large and small to understand. - Much easier to check existing datasets for compatibility. - Doesn't change much for data users in the open source community. - Enables commercial use by small companies who want to do the right thing, but can't just ignore grey areas that leave them or their customers liable. - It wouldn't change much as far as abuse by large corporations, as I'm sure their lawyers are earning more than our lawyers anyway. It actually seems like a clearer license with more indemnity could encourage a bigger company that is still somewhat concerned with it's PR credibility to use the data as intended. Wouldn't the resulting publicity do much more for OSM than a viral license? Right now the current and proposed licenses only seems to hurt small businesses, who can afford neither proprietary data nor the liabilities of the remaining grey areas. (I hope that precluding any sort of commercial use of the data is not the intent of most contributors.) If the data is in the public domain, sure some bad guys might abuse it, but please don't disregard the benefit that companies willing to follow the spirit of the community norms could bring to the project. thanks, -natevw ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain
On May 3, 2008, at 2:39 PM, Ted Mielczarek wrote: > For me, it seems ironic that a project spawned from licensing issues > over map data has found itself in a situation where licensing issues > are still a problem, and hopefully the license update will resolve > these and make using OSM data easier. Why else are we contributing > this data if not for people to *use* it? This mirrors my feelings exactly. When I found out about this project, I was really excited. I am writing a geotagging program that could greatly benefit from a worldwide feature set, and it seemed like OSM would be a great match. Now I'm not too sure. I live in the US, and have seen the benefits of (and perhaps come to take for granted) a significant body of Public Domain, free-as-in-WTFPL geographic datasets. Obviously on the other side of the Atlantic, you have seen the opposite: an overbearing monopoly that wants to keep this data under lock and key. Now what has been done to remedy that situation? I read things like "but aha! that pub's location might be a derivative work of a ShareAlike street!" and it sounds an awful lot how the OS claims copyright in everything from the Soviet topo maps to random tourist brochures. Except instead of insisting on big fees for use, it seems some parts of the community instead insist on big "freedoms" resulting from use. How is that better? I'm worried that if my users geotag their photos against OSM data, someone will come out of the woodwork insisting that the photos "could be considered a derivative of their work", and I can either hire a lawyer versed in International IP law [implying that they wouldn't mind me ignoring what they really want done with their data, provided it looked like I could get away with it]. Or I could just play it safe and pass the virus to my (fleeing) users. It doesn't hurt the US Census Bureau when someone takes their public domain TIGER data and turns it into a proprietary product, or one with an arguably more restrictive (or "more libre") licence. However, think of how much less useful the TIGER data would have been to both these "evil corporations" AND the open source community if data sets like that had to be used under a particular license instead of public domain (with attribution often requested). I understand that some feel the cause would be hurt if their data could ALSO be used in proprietary datasets. Obviously I have a different opinion on this matter, as do several others. What bothers me is that those in favor of viral licenses are able to even trump those who would rather have their data in the public domain -- and this by the same sort of "derivative work" FUD that makes a free set of map data so important in the first place. thanks, -natevw ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain
lol... He doesn't need to understand, but he would like to understand... which is an admirable thing...;-) Lucas De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] en nombre de Frederik Ramm Enviado el: lun 05/05/2008 1:00 Para: Vincent MEURISSE CC: talk@openstreetmap.org Asunto: Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain Hi, > I don't understand why some users want their work in PD. You don't have to understand, just accept that some want it. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain
Hi, > I don't understand why some users want their work in PD. You don't have to understand, just accept that some want it. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain
Ari Torhamo wrote: > OK, thanks for explaining this. I was actually just responding to > sarcasm that I didn't like, but perhaps I could have been more educated > doing it :-) (or perhaps it would be best that we weren't sarcastic to > each other at all). Sarcasm can be a major problem on lists where a lot of the users do not have English as a first language! It often produces unnecessary discussions EXPLAINING the 'nuances' so many internationally spread lists do tend to clamp down on it ;) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain
su, 2008-05-04 kello 15:40 +0200, Mike Collinson kirjoitti: > At 01:33 PM 4/05/2008, Ari Torhamo wrote: > >la, 2008-05-03 kello 17:39 -0400, Ted Mielczarek kirjoitti: > > > >> Why else are we contributing > >> this data if not for people to *use* it? > > > >I suggest you go and present this breath taking argument to RMS, and we > >might soon get an updated, more free version of GPL. > > > >Ari > > The GPL works very well as it already allows folks to *use* software with no > restriction on what they make with that use. > > Adding something new to GPL software source code is clearly different from > using existing GPL software to do something new. That distinction is far > from clear when using collations of facts like OSM data. So a different > model is required. The PD argument is a very easy and elegant solution, but > it makes some contributors very uncomfortable. The new license being worked > on seeks to make a, hopefully, comprehensible distinction for factual data. OK, thanks for explaining this. I was actually just responding to sarcasm that I didn't like, but perhaps I could have been more educated doing it :-) (or perhaps it would be best that we weren't sarcastic to each other at all). Ari ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain
Sebastian Spaeth > thanks, I didn't know the legal list. About problems with cc licenses, I agree with most of them and I think that have a new licence can be good. About PD users, I don't think it can be possible to use there work in public domain. The work from an author is most of time : 1 download data from osm serveur 2 make some work on the data 3 upload work The step 2 is make a derivative work from downloaded data in 1. So the new data can be used as PD only if all data from step 1 is PD. As there is no way to be sure of that, I don't think there is a way to use PD data. On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Mike Collinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > At 01:33 PM 4/05/2008, Ari Torhamo wrote: > >la, 2008-05-03 kello 17:39 -0400, Ted Mielczarek kirjoitti: > > > > >> Why else are we contributing > >> this data if not for people to *use* it? > > > >I suggest you go and present this breath taking argument to RMS, and we > >might soon get an updated, more free version of GPL. > > > >Ari > > The GPL works very well as it already allows folks to *use* software with no > restriction on what they make with that use. > > Adding something new to GPL software source code is clearly different from > using existing GPL software to do something new. That distinction is far > from clear when using collations of facts like OSM data. So a different > model is required. The PD argument is a very easy and elegant solution, but > it makes some contributors very uncomfortable. The new license being worked > on seeks to make a, hopefully, comprehensible distinction for factual data. > > Mike > > > > > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain
At 01:33 PM 4/05/2008, Ari Torhamo wrote: >la, 2008-05-03 kello 17:39 -0400, Ted Mielczarek kirjoitti: > >> Why else are we contributing >> this data if not for people to *use* it? > >I suggest you go and present this breath taking argument to RMS, and we >might soon get an updated, more free version of GPL. > >Ari The GPL works very well as it already allows folks to *use* software with no restriction on what they make with that use. Adding something new to GPL software source code is clearly different from using existing GPL software to do something new. That distinction is far from clear when using collations of facts like OSM data. So a different model is required. The PD argument is a very easy and elegant solution, but it makes some contributors very uncomfortable. The new license being worked on seeks to make a, hopefully, comprehensible distinction for factual data. Mike ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain
la, 2008-05-03 kello 17:39 -0400, Ted Mielczarek kirjoitti: > For me, it seems ironic that a project spawned from licensing issues > over map data has found itself in a situation where licensing issues > are still a problem, Yeah, what an irony. Those who started the project must have thought that there would never be any licencing issues... [...] > Why else are we contributing > this data if not for people to *use* it? I suggest you go and present this breath taking argument to RMS, and we might soon get an updated, more free version of GPL. Ari ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain
On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 6:36 AM, Vincent MEURISSE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't understand why some users want their work in PD. > The goal of osm is to have a map of the world freely available for > anyone. But with PD someone (eg google) can take all the work of osm, > correct and complete it, and copyright it in a way that osm cannot > reuse the modification. So the copyrighted map will be better than the > free one. And while they're taking the data, correcting and completing it, we'll be continuing to update and improve our copy, so what have they gained? Imagine if Wikipedia was public domain, and you made the same argument there. Certainly one could take a complete copy of Wikipedia, try to correct all errors, and publish it as your own work, but I doubt you could ever truly create something better than the mass of Wikipedia users. For me, it seems ironic that a project spawned from licensing issues over map data has found itself in a situation where licensing issues are still a problem, and hopefully the license update will resolve these and make using OSM data easier. Why else are we contributing this data if not for people to *use* it? -Ted ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain
Hi, > And where all the data entered by the PD guys was done without looking > at the non-PD stuff as a reference? Exactly, it's all in the meta data ,-) "caveat=user had proprietary map in top drawer of desk while mapping that" Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain
Vincent MEURISSE wrote: > I don't understand why some users want their work in PD. > The goal of osm is to have a map of the world freely available for > anyone. But with PD someone (eg google) can take all the work of osm, > correct and complete it, and copyright it in a way that osm cannot > reuse the modification. So the copyrighted map will be better than the > free one. I know this debate. It is carried out by BSD'lers versus GPL'ers constantly and depending on what your respective definition of freedom is, each side can be right. There is just no universal answer what constitutes "free use". As a PD'ler I can tell you that I just want to avoid that we have to display a 1000 names of contributors in a corner of our map, that I would like to be able to overlay data on an OSM map without having to worry whether I am allowed to do that, etc. > The license cc by-sa is a good protection against that as it will > always allow osm to use derivate work of the original map. If you have ever looked at our legal list, you will have noticed that it is basically impossible to follow that license, that we don't even get it right ourselves. Nobody can tell you what will constitute a derivative work and what not. If you ask for permissive uses and the only answer you will get from the organization that produces the data "ask a lawyer, we can't/won't tell you", then that license is clearly not right. spaetz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain
I don't understand why some users want their work in PD. The goal of osm is to have a map of the world freely available for anyone. But with PD someone (eg google) can take all the work of osm, correct and complete it, and copyright it in a way that osm cannot reuse the modification. So the copyrighted map will be better than the free one. The license cc by-sa is a good protection against that as it will always allow osm to use derivate work of the original map. On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 4:36 AM, Bruce Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Fri, 2008-05-02 at 17:01 +0100, Andy Allan wrote: > > And where all the data entered by the PD guys was done without looking > > at the non-PD stuff as a reference? Like a "PD" pub which was > > positioned at the corner of two CC-BY-SA streets, whose coordinates, > > therefore is (arguably) non-PD? Or "PD" rivers that went down the > > middle of a CC-BY-SA cycle-map-contours-background-in-potlatch valley? > > The sooner we're united behind one licence the better. Otherwise things > will just be like the Tories not wanting to say what they'd do better. > > Politics thrown in for a laugh. > -- > Bruce Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain
On Fri, 2008-05-02 at 17:01 +0100, Andy Allan wrote: > And where all the data entered by the PD guys was done without looking > at the non-PD stuff as a reference? Like a "PD" pub which was > positioned at the corner of two CC-BY-SA streets, whose coordinates, > therefore is (arguably) non-PD? Or "PD" rivers that went down the > middle of a CC-BY-SA cycle-map-contours-background-in-potlatch valley? The sooner we're united behind one licence the better. Otherwise things will just be like the Tories not wanting to say what they'd do better. Politics thrown in for a laugh. -- Bruce Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > > > >While I have the PD-user template on my user page and would encourage > >like-minded folks to do the same, I feel it is mostly a political > >statement than of real practical benefit. > > +1 > > Some time in the far future I will create a "clean" mirror of OSM that > contains only data never touched by people who don't do PD. And where all the data entered by the PD guys was done without looking at the non-PD stuff as a reference? Like a "PD" pub which was positioned at the corner of two CC-BY-SA streets, whose coordinates, therefore is (arguably) non-PD? Or "PD" rivers that went down the middle of a CC-BY-SA cycle-map-contours-background-in-potlatch valley? Good luck with that :-P Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain
Hi, >While I have the PD-user template on my user page and would encourage >like-minded folks to do the same, I feel it is mostly a political >statement than of real practical benefit. +1 Some time in the far future I will create a "clean" mirror of OSM that contains only data never touched by people who don't do PD. This is techically possible today, although it would currently place a high load on the API as we don't allow batch downloads of history data (meaning I would have to download every object's history with a separate API call, that's roughly 300 million requests - I wonder how many of those I'd get through before being firewalled ;-)). I assume that we'll allow batch download of history sooner or later (we're not truly free if we don't), and that would make a "PD filtered" version of OSM easy. But this is really something for the distant future, and would throw open a number of questions I'd rather not discuss here and now. Until then, I guess the PD-user template is really just a political statement identifying yourself as part of the silent majority in this project ;-) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Users whose contributions are in the public domain
At 01:12 PM 30/04/2008, Rahkonen Jukka wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I concluded that I'd rather see my contributions in public domain and added >> the PD-user template to show that. I wonder what does it mean in practice. >> Is it now possible for me or anybody else to extract all features I have >> created and which have never been touched by other users? How about ways >> created originally by me but edited later by others? How should I work >> in the future to guarantee that my edits will be free? Should I do all >> new work in some other environment and store it there before donating >> it to OSM or what? I am now only speaking about creating totally new >> features, not editing anything done by others. >> >> -Jukka Rahkonen- My personal view only: While I have the PD-user template on my user page and would encourage like-minded folks to do the same, I feel it is mostly a political statement than of real practical benefit. You are welcome, for example, to take all my work for the island of Boracay [1] and do whatever you like with it. But I cannot guarantee no one else has added new material or made edits in the meantime ... and I don't like to tread on the feet of fellow mappers who don't think as I do. For my own possible use, yes, I take a copy of new areas I've worked on from OSM before other folks arrive. I don't feel it necessary to work in a different environment before donating to OSM, ... but again, as long as you are sure that what is yours, really is yours. The Osmxapi API [2] might help there, I believe it is possible to filter on the userid of the last person to touch the data(??). And then there's a new license in the works. May be it will address many of the reasons why you want your contributions in the public domain by better defining how OSM data can be combined with other projects. Mike [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=11.967&lon=121.9271&zoom=14&layers=B0FT [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Osmxapi ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
