Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
2010/5/23 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: On 23 May 2010 01:55, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: actually, what's the point of isolated (or even the meaning: this is completely relative to context)? You can see that a place is isolated (given completeness of the map ;-) ). Maybe I was unclear above, I see I made that comment in the beginning... Yes, and I wrote that it is not about isolation but about settlement typology... Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On 23 May 2010 18:35, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/5/23 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: On 23 May 2010 01:55, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: actually, what's the point of isolated (or even the meaning: this is completely relative to context)? You can see that a place is isolated (given completeness of the map ;-) ). Maybe I was unclear above, I see I made that comment in the beginning... Yes, and I wrote that it is not about isolation but about settlement typology... And the whole thing became one big mess due to cultural differences... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
2010/5/23 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: And the whole thing became one big mess due to cultural differences... I don't know why. Places where one person, 2 persons, one family live, are isolated dwellings, if they are not connected to other such dwellings in the surrounding (and the cultural differences are IMHO how far away surrounding is to be considered). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On 23 May 2010 18:46, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know why. Places where one person, 2 persons, one family live, The same reason cultural difference effect the language people uses and get used to calling things. A spanner isn't always a spanner, some times it's wrench... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On Sun, 23 May 2010, cultural differences... I don't know why. Without wishing to cause offence, we need to accept that there are cultural differences. We cannot ever understand them all, but we can accept that we do not all see the world the same way. I think that I understand that in Germany isolated_place is a defined type of entity, while in other places it represents a subjective decision. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
2010/5/23 Liz ed...@billiau.net: I think that I understand that in Germany isolated_place is a defined type of entity, while in other places it represents a subjective decision. in some way, many of our tags include subjective decisions. I can find quite some results for isolated_dwelling and Australia in Google as well, e.g. http://qag.qld.gov.au/exhibitions/past/2008/place_makers The exhibition reveals the extraordinary diversity of residential work being produced in Queensland, and includes internationally recognised commissions for individual houses, modest suburban ‘infill’ designs, an isolated dwelling in regional Queensland, and others. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On Sun, 23 May 2010, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2010/5/23 Liz ed...@billiau.net: I think that I understand that in Germany isolated_place is a defined type of entity, while in other places it represents a subjective decision. in some way, many of our tags include subjective decisions. I can find quite some results for isolated_dwelling and Australia in Google as well, e.g. http://qag.qld.gov.au/exhibitions/past/2008/place_makers The exhibition reveals the extraordinary diversity of residential work being produced in Queensland, and includes internationally recognised commissions for individual houses, modest suburban ‘infill’ designs, an isolated dwelling in regional Queensland, and others. cheers, Martin isolated dwelling here sounds like it is architect or journalist talk, not any cartographic or geo-orientated word. That's a decision from the context, because the phrase does not hold a particular meaning in a geographic sense ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
2010/5/23 Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net: isolated dwelling here sounds like it is architect or journalist talk, not any cartographic or geo-orientated word. That's a decision from the context, because the phrase does not hold a particular meaning in a geographic sense Here it (Einzelsiedlung) is a word from architect's vocabulary as well (to be precise I think it's Raumordnung, which corresponds to lots of English terms: http://dict.leo.org/?lp=endesearch=raumordnung (spacial planning) ). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
2010/5/23 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: have a look on page 4: http://www.google.de/url?sa=tsource=webct=rescd=1ved=0CB0QFjAAurl=http%3A%2F%2F202.82.16.155%2Fbss%2Fgeography%2Fs7_ppt%2Fch6.pptrct=jq=settlement+hierarchy+australia+%22isolated+dwelling%22ei=Lvj4S6Avy5SxBsW4saQGusg=AFQjCNHSpmbBmk6NWBpK9S8lgFFQsfPcRQ http://tripatlas.com/Settlement_Hierarchy I guess you can also find similar information in Applied Geography, Volume 28, Issue 1, January 2008, Pages 54-76 but I didn't want to spend 31,50$ to read the article online. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On Sun, 23 May 2010, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2010/5/23 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: have a look on page 4: http://www.google.de/url?sa=tsource=webct=rescd=1ved=0CB0QFjAAurl=http %3A%2F%2F202.82.16.155%2Fbss%2Fgeography%2Fs7_ppt%2Fch6.pptrct=jq=settlem ent+hierarchy+australia+%22isolated+dwelling%22ei=Lvj4S6Avy5SxBsW4saQGusg =AFQjCNHSpmbBmk6NWBpK9S8lgFFQsfPcRQ http://tripatlas.com/Settlement_Hierarchy I guess you can also find similar information in Applied Geography, Volume 28, Issue 1, January 2008, Pages 54-76 but I didn't want to spend 31,50$ to read the article online. cheers, Martin Finding places where the two words are used together merely proves that you can join them and make a meaningful English phrase. Now start proving this for Spanish, Italian, Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, Finish, Albanian und so weiter. -- You are confused; but this is your normal state. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
Allright, back to topic - can someone add place=isolated_dwelling to map features? Cheers, Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Peteris Krisjanis pec...@gmail.com wrote: Allright, back to topic - can someone add place=isolated_dwelling to map features? Should every approved key:value be placed in Map Features? If so, how do we manage the size of that page? select place, count(place) as nodes from planet_osm_point group by place order by count(place) DESC limit 35; place| nodes -+ village | 435465 hamlet | 320712 locality| 90984 town| 46875 suburb | 35721 island | 26254 county | 6434 city| 5759 farm| 2244 region |975 state |848 subdivision |817 islet |645 FIXME |507 airport |432 municipality|392 |370 unincorporated_area |315 country |237 moor|144 sea | 89 house | 63 Arazede | 50 archipelago | 45 residence | 43 isolated_dwelling | 42 district| 37 location| 30 crowded | 23 historical_state| 19 historical_division | 18 undefined | 16 hall_of_residence | 16 peninsula | 14 lake| 13 (35 rows) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
2010/5/23 Richard Weait rich...@weait.com: On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Peteris Krisjanis pec...@gmail.com wrote: Allright, back to topic - can someone add place=isolated_dwelling to map features? Should every approved key:value be placed in Map Features? If so, how do we manage the size of that page? For Christ sakes, I think we discussed this already enough. I think most of us agreed that place *should* be used as indicator of the size of the settlement. That's why THIS tag proposal differs from tags you mentioned here. There is enough indication that lot of people want to see this clarified. Please, stop play these stupid everything can be tag, so we won't standardize, because it will be so uncool games. Difference in opinion is good thing, but we have to draw line somewhere. Cheers, Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On 24 May 2010 02:40, Peteris Krisjanis pec...@gmail.com wrote: mentioned here. There is enough indication that lot of people want to see this clarified. Or at least a voicetress minority making enough noise to push it through, if this tag is so popular why is there only 42 instances of it in use? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
Or at least a voicetress minority making enough noise to push it through, if this tag is so popular why is there only 42 instances of it in use? And what is the actuall difference against the slightly more popular residence with 43 usages? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On 24 May 2010 06:05, Aun Johnsen li...@gimnechiske.org wrote: Or at least a voicetress minority making enough noise to push it through, if this tag is so popular why is there only 42 instances of it in use? And what is the actuall difference against the slightly more popular residence with 43 usages? I didn't know anyone was asking to have that on the map features page? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
2010/5/22 Aun Johnsen li...@gimnechiske.org: population in general cannot combine farming and fishing. Many of these are so isolated that there exists no cars there. IMHO the isolated in isolated dwelling is about the context, whether a building is part of a bigger settlement or is isolated and therefore to be considered a settlement itself. Looking at the hierarchy you list above it came to my mind that you are maybe talking about administrative classification (in OSM boundary adminlevel, ...) and not about settlements? cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On 22 May 2010 20:56, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: IMHO the isolated in isolated dwelling is about the context, whether So place=farm, isolated=yes ? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
2010/5/22 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: On 22 May 2010 20:56, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: IMHO the isolated in isolated dwelling is about the context, whether So place=farm, isolated=yes ? actually, what's the point of isolated (or even the meaning: this is completely relative to context)? You can see that a place is isolated (given completeness of the map ;-) ). Maybe I was unclear above, I see isolated_dwelling as a standard term for the very smallest settlements, that are not even some houses scattered around (hamlet), but less. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 7:56 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/5/22 Aun Johnsen li...@gimnechiske.org: population in general cannot combine farming and fishing. Many of these are so isolated that there exists no cars there. IMHO the isolated in isolated dwelling is about the context, whether a building is part of a bigger settlement or is isolated and therefore to be considered a settlement itself. Looking at the hierarchy you list above it came to my mind that you are maybe talking about administrative classification (in OSM boundary adminlevel, ...) and not about settlements? The grend had an administrative function as they where responsible (or partly responsible) for some of the munincipal services long time ago, this have been gone since the new law of munincipation of 1956 (Komuneloven). Gard have never had any other administrative function than that you had to be a male landowner to have voting rights before 1901. The fogd was a church division of the country, but as the church had a lot of power up until mid 1800 this division also had administrative functions (indirect) Though we have the vær type of settlement, which are really isolated (Grip is just a couple of islands without roads just to mention one), many of which are only holiday homes nowadays, but some are still living communities even though the younger generations seems to be leaving. The gard is not necessary a function farm anymore, the grend is not a dense group of houses, more of a group of somewhat spread farms, these farms can be as close as the farm yards share border, or with a few kilometer separation. The grend where I grew up the farms was within 2 kilometers of each other, though there was a clear separation to the neighbouring grends. A[] cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On 23 May 2010 01:55, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: actually, what's the point of isolated (or even the meaning: this is completely relative to context)? You can see that a place is isolated (given completeness of the map ;-) ). Maybe I was unclear above, I see I made that comment in the beginning... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 1:16 AM, Aun Johnsen li...@gimnechiske.org wrote: I took the freedom to remove the mark of deprecated on place=farm and wrote a page with an easy to understand (I hope) definition of what a farm can be different from isolated dwelling http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Dfarm But that's even worst. It says now: A farm can be a part of a place Then simply, don't use the key 'place' but a subset of the place=isolated_dwelling I know how difficult it is to deprecate a tag. In OSM it is almost impossible. That's why people are just piling up new tags without cleaning up the previous similar ones. I don't give more than 3 monthes until a hugh thread comes on this list asking a clarification between the different place values. For instance, I wish good luck to the guy who will update the page Key:place and write: place=farm In some countries the official type of a residential area smaller than a hamlet (Germany: Gehöft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/de:Geh%C3%B6ft). place=isolated_dwelling In some countries the official type of a residential area smaller than a hamlet (Germany: nicht ein Gehöfthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/de:Geh%C3%B6ft). It's really sad that we start mixing keys 'building' and 'place' just because they have a locality name. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
Hi, Pieren wrote: place=farm In some countries the official type of a residential area smaller than a hamlet (Germany: Gehöft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/de:Geh%C3%B6ft). place=isolated_dwelling In some countries the official type of a residential area smaller than a hamlet (Germany: nicht ein Gehöft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/de:Geh%C3%B6ft). I don't like the in some countries stuff. OSM is not organised by countries. I suggest: place=farm - use this for residential areas smaller than a hamlet, unless you think that place=isolated_dwelling is more appropriate place=isolated_dwelling - use this for residential areas smaller than a hamlet, unless you think that place=farm is more appropriate You may also use landuse=residential for residential areas or landuse=farmyard for farm yards. If someone lives on the farm, either tag place=farm and landuse=residential, or use place=isolated_dwelling and landuse=farmyard. I'm not entirely serious about this. But a little. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On Fri, 21 May 2010, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, Pieren wrote: place=farm In some countries the official type of a residential area smaller than a hamlet (Germany: Gehöft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/de:Geh%C3%B6ft). place=isolated_dwelling In some countries the official type of a residential area smaller than a hamlet (Germany: nicht ein Gehöft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/de:Geh%C3%B6ft). I don't like the in some countries stuff. OSM is not organised by countries. I suggest: place=farm - use this for residential areas smaller than a hamlet, unless you think that place=isolated_dwelling is more appropriate place=isolated_dwelling - use this for residential areas smaller than a hamlet, unless you think that place=farm is more appropriate You may also use landuse=residential for residential areas or landuse=farmyard for farm yards. If someone lives on the farm, either tag place=farm and landuse=residential, or use place=isolated_dwelling and landuse=farmyard. I'm not entirely serious about this. But a little. Bye Frederik This started as a deprecate farmyes/no thread because now solated_dwelling will now replace farm these concepts are neither mutually exclusive nor complementary they overlap neither one can be used instead of the other what about the isolated dwelling of the lighthouse keeper? what about the farm that is not isolated? I don't find isolated_dwelling useful at all in my view of my country I accept that others find it useful in their view of their country. We may not be organised by country but we can't all fit into each others country view. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
2010/5/21 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: . place=farm - use this for residential areas smaller than a hamlet, unless you think that place=isolated_dwelling is more appropriate farm is usage of the place. place=* tag is definitely more about size of settlement than usage of it. place=isolated_dwelling - use this for residential areas smaller than a hamlet, unless you think that place=farm is more appropriate But why? Why so big exclusivity about farm? Again, farm is what is located at this place, not place itself. Cheers, Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
2010/5/21 Aun Johnsen li...@gimnechiske.org: I took the freedom to remove the mark of deprecated on place=farm and wrote a page with an easy to understand (I hope) definition of what a farm can be different from isolated dwelling http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Dfarm OK, I made some further changes, please check if this is OK with you. Btw. (asuming that you are Skippern): you wrote that Gehöft is an official term for settlements smaller than hamlets in Germany. Where did you get this information from? IMHO the right generic term (on the same level as hamlet or village) for this is indeed Einzelsiedlung as I wrote there. Am I supposing right, that this information is only based on Wikipedia:de/Weiler ? cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 3:06 PM, Peteris Krisjanis pec...@gmail.com wrote: farm is usage of the place. place=* tag is definitely more about size of settlement than usage of it. Exactly. That's why I suggest (and some others) to deprecate place=farm. Otherwise, we will see in the futur place=restaurant, place=manufactory, place=watermill, etc as soon as it is named and not part of a bigger place (isolated). No reasons to stop this mess where in the past the place hierarchy was quite clear: city town village hamlet locality and suburb as part of a city or town Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
2010/5/21 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: No reasons to stop this mess where in the past the place hierarchy was quite clear: city town village hamlet locality this is actually not clear, because locality was long ago (or has ever been) defined as uninhabited place, regardless the size of the feature (so it falls in the category island and other non-settlement-place-tags). and suburb as part of a city or town that's the second part being not clear. If suburb (horrible word for central places) is part of city or town, why not having also parts of hamlets tagged explicity if they have their own name? Another problem with suburb I see is that there is no distinction for official (read administrative) places from ones that are only subparts of administrative entities but with their own name. I would like to be able, given the hypothetical situation that all data is entered completely and correctly, to e.g. calculate the population of Germany by summarizing all population-values of certain place-tags (isolated_dwelling, hamlet, village, town, city) and disregarding the rest (like suburb), which should already be included in the ones mentioned above. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
An old definition of places in Norway (do not know if it actually legal definition anymore) was as follow Land (nation) - herred (region) - amt (state) - fogd (church area) - len (munincipality) - by (city or town) / grend (hamlet) - gard (farm) Some of these have been weakened with time, so that herred have been removed (also changed meaning a few times in history), amt are renamed fylke and are aout to be removed as they are taking away the administrative responsebilities of it, len have been renamed kommune, and by is not longer considered a subdevision of kommune, just having the same status (in a way), grend is a natural way to divide a rural munincipal, and gard is still part of the grend. Gard is not necessary an active farm, many of them just used to be farm, but now are a residential place for one to three famillies, surrounded by the farmland that used to belong to that farm. They are not isolated dwellings, they are just the suburbs of a hamlet Maybe place=farm is not the right tag for a gard (which translates farm even if there are no farming activities there), but it should be tagged different than vær, which is a small isolated place (which probably would be tagged place=village or might be considered place=isolated_dwelling) - the last one is a densely built small place, generally a fishing community, cramped around a safe port. In most cases access to only a little cultivated land, so that the population in general cannot combine farming and fishing. Many of these are so isolated that there exists no cars there. A[] ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
2010/5/19 Aun Johnsen li...@gimnechiske.org: How to tag Norwegian named farms making part of a grend which I would have tagged as hamlet? They are not isolated dwellings as they are not isolated, just parts of the larger unit. how much distance there is required to be isolated depends surely on the cultural context, but how I understand your mail, there is one place, that is the grend, and this place is the hamlets which consists of the single farms. In this case IMHO neither place=farm nor isolated_dwelling would be appropriate. How to tag Brazillian Fazendas, they are farms that can consits of as many as 20 buildings, with living barracks for season workers and factory like buildings for pre-processing of their harvests. I'd suggest that the Brazilians decide this, but I'd probably tag them as Hamlets. Seasonal stuff is generally difficult to tag, but I'm assuming that there live all year long also quite some people, otherwise I'd go for isolated_dwelling. How to tag Brazillian Sitios, they are small farms or groups of houses, usually very isolated. depends on what the group is, how big, etc. For the first I would use place=farm on the named farms, making them part of place=hamlet what do you mean by making them part of. What about a farm in the city: would you tag it with place=farm? I'd actually not tag anything place=farm, place=mill, etc., but use place for human settlements, and something else for the use (e.g. landuse, building, ...) The second I would call place=farm, they are not hamlets as often only one familly live there permanently, though there can be more than 100 workers in the harvest seasons difficult because of the seasonal aspect, but as it is quite some people, they are probably important enough not to tag them as very small (isolated_dwelling). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 5:51 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/5/19 Aun Johnsen li...@gimnechiske.org: How to tag Norwegian named farms making part of a grend which I would have tagged as hamlet? They are not isolated dwellings as they are not isolated, just parts of the larger unit. how much distance there is required to be isolated depends surely on the cultural context, but how I understand your mail, there is one place, that is the grend, and this place is the hamlets which consists of the single farms. In this case IMHO neither place=farm nor isolated_dwelling would be appropriate. Implying a distance of isolation for isolated dwelling would imply that there should be a tagged for unisolated_dwelling? A grend generally consists of 4 to 20 farms, for example where I grew up, the grend Høgset, which is made up of the farms Skoåkrå, Iverstua, Oppistua, Røysan, Nessa and Langnessa. Each of these farms is again one to three residencial buildings plus farm buildings such as barn, heyloft, equipment garrages, etc. The houses of each farm is generally located around the farm yard, which can be near the edge or near the center of the farm. It can happen that two or tree farm yards are close to each other (like the case of Nessa and Langnessa in my grend). Each of the farms have unique names in most of Norway. (I live about 1 km away from this place, that is probably the reason that this data is not available in the database) How to tag Brazillian Fazendas, they are farms that can consits of as many as 20 buildings, with living barracks for season workers and factory like buildings for pre-processing of their harvests. I'd suggest that the Brazilians decide this, but I'd probably tag them as Hamlets. Seasonal stuff is generally difficult to tag, but I'm assuming that there live all year long also quite some people, otherwise I'd go for isolated_dwelling. As I am part of the Brazilian community than I can accordingly take part in that decicion. A fazenda is not a hamlet, there are lots of hamlets in Brazil, that are places with 10 to 500 inhabitants (loosely defined) and marked on local maps as such, fazendas are different. You can probably argue that it could be tagged with village, but that have a different definition, and pushing villages to town will not solve this as that would push towns to city and city to something else, maybe metropol? How to tag Brazillian Sitios, they are small farms or groups of houses, usually very isolated. depends on what the group is, how big, etc. By group I mean anything with more than 2 buildings, a Sitio can be a collection of small cottages, or an actual farm, and can be permanent or only seasonal. For the first I would use place=farm on the named farms, making them part of place=hamlet what do you mean by making them part of. What about a farm in the city: would you tag it with place=farm? I'd actually not tag anything place=farm, place=mill, etc., but use place for human settlements, and something else for the use (e.g. landuse, building, ...) The second I would call place=farm, they are not hamlets as often only one familly live there permanently, though there can be more than 100 workers in the harvest seasons difficult because of the seasonal aspect, but as it is quite some people, they are probably important enough not to tag them as very small (isolated_dwelling). This is a good reason to keep the farm tag and not deprecate it. When it should be tagged farm and when to tag it isolated_dwelling should be up to each country to define, German conditions definitely doesn't apply all over the world. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
I took the freedom to remove the mark of deprecated on place=farm and wrote a page with an easy to understand (I hope) definition of what a farm can be different from isolated dwelling http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Dfarm On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 7:57 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/5/21 Aun Johnsen li...@gimnechiske.org: Implying a distance of isolation for isolated dwelling would imply that there should be a tagged for unisolated_dwelling? unisolated dwellings is the rest of the inhabited places (village, town..). A grend generally consists of 4 to 20 farms, for example where I grew up, the grend Høgset, which is made up of the farms Skoåkrå, Iverstua, this is probably a hamlet. Oppistua, Røysan, Nessa and Langnessa. Each of these farms is again one to three residencial buildings plus farm buildings such as barn, heyloft, equipment garrages, etc. ... probably here place=farm could maybe used (if you define it like this), they are not isolated dwellings as they are part of a hamlet. How to tag Brazillian Fazendas, they are farms that can consits of as many as 20 buildings, with living barracks for season workers and factory like buildings for pre-processing of their harvests. For the first I would use place=farm on the named farms, making them part of place=hamlet +1, for me that's fine. All good examples for local use of place=farm I would not have thought of. Maybe you could also go for a Key-name that depicts that it is a sub-part of an hamlet (or use an relation for this). This is a good reason to keep the farm tag and not deprecate it. OK, but there should be some definitions/examples. Still you will find isolated dwellings as well in your country I suppose. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
Hi, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: Some isolated farms (called stations) are as large as a hamlet. They are isolated in terms of tens of kms from their neighbours. Some appear on regular maps as if they were towns I'm sure that the Argentinians and the Americans have similar farms. then they should be tagged as place=hamlet, shouldn't they? Is anything as large as a hamlet really a hamlet? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On Wed, 19 May 2010, you wrote: But all isolated farms are isolated_dwellings, no ? No. Some isolated farms (called stations) are as large as a hamlet. They are isolated in terms of tens of kms from their neighbours. Some appear on regular maps as if they were towns I'm sure that the Argentinians and the Americans have similar farms. then they should be tagged as place=hamlet, shouldn't they? no, they aren't hamlets, or villages. places which have a place= in Au have official place names on government registers (eg NSW Geographical Names Board) -- Man is the only animal that blushes -- or needs to. -- Mark Twain ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
2010/5/19 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: Hi, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: Some isolated farms (called stations) are as large as a hamlet. They are isolated in terms of tens of kms from their neighbours. Some appear on regular maps as if they were towns I'm sure that the Argentinians and the Americans have similar farms. then they should be tagged as place=hamlet, shouldn't they? Is anything as large as a hamlet really a hamlet? in Germany that would be the definition, given that we're talking about human settlements and not industrial installations. Large is about the number of people living there, isn't it? cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 9:11 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/5/19 Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net: On Wed, 19 May 2010, you wrote: But all isolated farms are isolated_dwellings, no ? No. Some isolated farms (called stations) are as large as a hamlet. They are isolated in terms of tens of kms from their neighbours. Some appear on regular maps as if they were towns I'm sure that the Argentinians and the Americans have similar farms. then they should be tagged as place=hamlet, shouldn't they? no, they aren't hamlets, or villages. places which have a place= in Au have official place names on government registers (eg NSW Geographical Names Board) And the smaller ones don't? In Germany all human settlements (excluding the ones that are not official i.e. illegal) are in some government register, be it hamlets or smaller. I guess you would generally have to adopt the criteria for places in AU, we did this in Germany and Italy as well. e.g. 999 inhabitants is far too big for a hamlet in Europe. Towns we are not classifying by population (on the lower end) but by their status. I guess in AU with it's scarse settlement structure it is necessary to display hamlets also on lower zoom levels in the rendering than we can do in Europe, ... How to tag Norwegian named farms making part of a grend which I would have tagged as hamlet? They are not isolated dwellings as they are not isolated, just parts of the larger unit. How to tag Brazillian Fazendas, they are farms that can consits of as many as 20 buildings, with living barracks for season workers and factory like buildings for pre-processing of their harvests. How to tag Brazillian Sitios, they are small farms or groups of houses, usually very isolated. For the first I would use place=farm on the named farms, making them part of place=hamlet The second I would call place=farm, they are not hamlets as often only one familly live there permanently, though there can be more than 100 workers in the harvest seasons The third I could call place=isolated_dwelling, though place=locality have fallen for me as completely natural. A[] cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On 19 May 2010 22:11, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I guess you would generally have to adopt the criteria for places in AU, we did this in Germany and Italy as well. e.g. 999 inhabitants is far too big for a hamlet in Europe. Towns we are not classifying by population (on the lower end) but by their status. I guess in AU We do something similar, some remote towns have been classified as cities to make them render sooner not due to populations, but due to importance to the regional importance to areas, although some of these places call themselves cities, but that's more ego than anything. I was at one point going to suggest place=regional_centre instead of using place=city but that was more or less when I started and never got back to it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 1:36 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: could someone with the ability please add place=isolated_dwelling to the main map features? Voting has ended on May 13 and the feature was approved. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/isolated_dwelling This is a typical process where only half of the job is done. This tag is clearly deprecating place=farm but no one is clearing that point. By not doing it, it will just increase the (long) list of place values by one and increase the confusion. So I would appreciate that people proposing a new tag have also the heart to say which tags they are going to deprecate. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
Pieren wrote: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 1:36 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: could someone with the ability please add place=isolated_dwelling to the main map features? Voting has ended on May 13 and the feature was approved. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/isolated_dwelling This is a typical process where only half of the job is done. This tag is clearly deprecating place=farm but no one is clearing that point. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, not all isolated dwellings are farms. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org wrote: As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, not all isolated dwellings are farms. But all isolated farms are isolated_dwellings, no ? Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org wrote: not all isolated dwellings are farms. But all isolated farms are isolated_dwellings, no ? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
2010/5/18 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org wrote: As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, not all isolated dwellings are farms. But all isolated farms are isolated_dwellings, no ? yes, that's why I marked place=farm as deprecated and put on a (temporary) note that it should be changed to isolated_dwelling. Once this is done, we can delete place=farm from the list. Btw.: place=farm was never on mapfeatures (AFAIK). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
Hi, M?rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: yes, that's why I marked place=farm as deprecated and put on a (temporary) note that it should be changed to isolated_dwelling. But doesn't that lose information? Why would one want that? Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
2010/5/18 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: M?rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: yes, that's why I marked place=farm as deprecated and put on a (temporary) note that it should be changed to isolated_dwelling. But doesn't that lose information? Why would one want that? I was implying that you put the farm information to where it belongs, i.e. if there is a place=farm you could transscribe this to place=isolated_dwelling, landuse=farmyard. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dfarmyard cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 3:49 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I was implying that you put the farm information to where it belongs, i.e. if there is a place=farm you could transscribe this to place=isolated_dwelling, landuse=farmyard. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dfarmyard or building=farm or dwelling=farm Otherwise, if we keep place=farm, we cannot refuse place=chalet/hut/hostel or any type of isolated dwelling. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
Hi, M?rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: I was implying that you put the farm information to where it belongs, i.e. if there is a place=farm you could transscribe this to place=isolated_dwelling, landuse=farmyard. Oh, I guess I hadn't followed this enough, I thought that isolated_dwelling was meant to be a node tag. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
2010/5/18 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: Oh, I guess I hadn't followed this enough, I thought that isolated_dwelling was meant to be a node tag. it is a node or polygon-tag. Up to the mapper. In the end all place-tags are best on polygons and not on nodes. Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
2010/5/18 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: Right, but this means you cannot downgrade a place=farm that sits on a node to a place=isolated_dwelling without loss of information because you could not attach landuse=farmyard to a node. At least that would be a very unusual way of tagging. Effectively you are deprecating only place=farm used on polygons, and place=farm on nodes needs to remain until someone has the time to make it into a polygon ;-) If you don't like landuse=farm on a node you can add building=farm instead, like Pieren suggested. Also his proposal dwelling=farm is possible. Btw.: you must also be sure that it is indeed a farm, as some of the place=farm might as well be not actual farms but different settlements. In German speaking countries you might also get the farm information from the name (ending with hof), but that's not having it in a dedicated tag, I agree. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
On Tue, 18 May 2010, Pieren wrote: But all isolated farms are isolated_dwellings, no ? No. Some isolated farms (called stations) are as large as a hamlet. They are isolated in terms of tens of kms from their neighbours. Some appear on regular maps as if they were towns I'm sure that the Argentinians and the Americans have similar farms. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
2010/5/18 Liz ed...@billiau.net: On Tue, 18 May 2010, Pieren wrote: But all isolated farms are isolated_dwellings, no ? No. Some isolated farms (called stations) are as large as a hamlet. They are isolated in terms of tens of kms from their neighbours. Some appear on regular maps as if they were towns I'm sure that the Argentinians and the Americans have similar farms. then they should be tagged as place=hamlet, shouldn't they? cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
