Re: [Talk-it] [www.covid19italia.info] Consegne a domicilio e suosm

[Alessandro Sarretta]

Bravissimi! :-)

On 26/04/20 22:15, Matteo Zaffonato wrote:

Ottimo!

Matteo

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 9:33 PM Cascafico Giovanni 
mailto:cascaf...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Recentemente sono stati aggiornati i campi di suosm [1] con le
consegne a domicilio e consegne in periodo covid19, nonchè i
relativi campi descrittivi; un esempio di nota generata lo trovate
in mezzo al mare [2]. Mi sembra funzioni tutto.


[1] https://su.openstreetmap.it/
[2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/2172928

Il giorno ven 3 apr 2020 alle ore 12:51 Cascafico Giovanni
mailto:cascaf...@gmail.com>> ha scritto:

Che ne dite di trasmettere a covid19italia [1] lo strumento di
auto-segnalazione su.openstreetmap.it
?

Non so qualle sia la popolarità di covid19italia, ma nel caso
fosse molto letto, potrebbe innescare parecchie note OSM.

Pensavo ad un testo del genere:

per *segnalazioni georiferite*:
alcuni mappatori openstreetmap hanno svuiluppato lo strumento
online https://su.openstreetmap.it
Si tratta di un form che guida nella segnalazione di attività
commerciali.
Il form genera una nota OSM ed i mappatori ne curano la
standardizzazione e l'inserimento in OSM. Ciò apre la
possibilità di molteplici rappresentazioni su mappa partendo
da dati in un unico database. Per il covid19 è stato appena
implementato il campo delivery




[1] https://www.covid19italia.info/segnala/iniziative-servizi

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Re: [Talk-in] OSM India Telegram -> Matrix Bridge

[Aruna S]

Update: I did create this, but turns out Matrix Telegram bridges have an
issue now. (As seen on the banner at the top on https://t2bot.io/telegram/).

So messages from Matrix flow into Telegram but not the other way around. We
could try using other Riot servers, but Matrix is the one that has bridges
to a large number of platforms. Thoughts here?
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Re: [talk-au] Anzacathon and mapping possibilities

[Andrew Davidson]

On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 9:27 AM  wrote:

> This looks to me to be unqualified permission. There is no mention of
> CC-BY-SA and I would expect that their permission to continue till
> they revoked it.
>
> The licence change over was opt-in not opt-out.
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Re: [talk-au] Anzacathon and mapping possibilities

[forster]

Hi

Their statement is:

"Yes, the Commission agrees to your using our information to provide  
data (for Openstreetmap, others)"


This looks to me to be unqualified permission. There is no mention of  
CC-BY-SA and I would expect that their permission to continue till  
they revoked it.


Tony


On 26/4/20 11:28 pm, Daniel Pocock wrote:


I asked on the talk-gb list and this was discussed before, they did get
a response from CWGC in 2010:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2020-April/024456.html

contains this link:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-August/010110.html



Is that still valid? This is from when OSM was CC-BY-SA. Is the CWGC
still happy for OSM to use the data if we are releasing it under ODbL?

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Re: [Talk-GB] CWGC: worldwide, war graves

[Warin]

On 26/4/20 10:50 pm, Colin Smale wrote:


On 2020-04-26 14:26, Tony OSM wrote:

If we generate a tag schema it clearly needs to be applicable to 
other grave organisations - e.g. German War Graves Commission - 
/Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge/ in German.



So we need a more abstract concept like "War Cemetery":

war_cemetery=cwgc

or

war_cemetery:cwgc=yes

I suspect the CWGC don't "own" or "operate" many of these (shared) 
locations or graves - they would just be cataloguing the facts.




Australia pays for the upkeep of its war dead graves.


I would hope that a similar respect is shown by other countries to their 
war dead.
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Re: [talk-au] Anzacathon and mapping possibilities

[Andrew Davidson]

On 26/4/20 11:28 pm, Daniel Pocock wrote:


I asked on the talk-gb list and this was discussed before, they did get
a response from CWGC in 2010:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2020-April/024456.html

contains this link:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-August/010110.html



Is that still valid? This is from when OSM was CC-BY-SA. Is the CWGC 
still happy for OSM to use the data if we are releasing it under ODbL?


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Re: [Talk-it] [www.covid19italia.info] Consegne a domicilio e suosm

[Matteo Zaffonato]

Ottimo!

Matteo

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 9:33 PM Cascafico Giovanni 
wrote:

> Recentemente sono stati aggiornati i campi di suosm [1] con le consegne a
> domicilio e consegne in periodo covid19, nonchè i relativi campi
> descrittivi; un esempio di nota generata lo trovate in mezzo al mare [2].
> Mi sembra funzioni tutto.
>
>
> [1] https://su.openstreetmap.it/
> [2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/2172928
>
> Il giorno ven 3 apr 2020 alle ore 12:51 Cascafico Giovanni <
> cascaf...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>> Che ne dite di trasmettere a covid19italia [1] lo strumento di
>> auto-segnalazione su.openstreetmap.it?
>>
>> Non so qualle sia la popolarità di covid19italia, ma nel caso fosse molto
>> letto, potrebbe innescare parecchie note OSM.
>>
>> Pensavo ad un testo del genere:
>>
>> per *segnalazioni georiferite*:
>> alcuni mappatori openstreetmap hanno svuiluppato lo strumento online
>> https://su.openstreetmap.it
>> Si tratta di un form che guida nella segnalazione di attività
>> commerciali.
>> Il form genera una nota OSM ed i mappatori ne curano la standardizzazione
>> e l'inserimento in OSM. Ciò apre la possibilità di molteplici
>> rappresentazioni su mappa partendo da dati in un unico database. Per il
>> covid19 è stato appena implementato il campo delivery
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [1] https://www.covid19italia.info/segnala/iniziative-servizi
>>
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[Talk-de] 3. Status-Update zu "Bleibt offen" (Ça reste ouvert)

[Claas Augner]

Hallo,

seit dem 2,5. Status-Update sind nun schon 2,5 Wochen verstrichen und in 
Deutschland öffnen an diesem Montag auch wieder einige Geschäfte mehr.



**Was hat sich bei „Bleibt offen“ getan?**

1. Wir haben inzwischen eine eigene deutsche Webseite mit einem Blog, 
Infos für Rathäuser und die Presse, und einer Liste der Handelsketten:

https://www.bleibtoffen.org/

2. Das OSM-Presseteam hat unsere Pressemitteilung überarbeitet und an 
verschiedene Medien verteilt, wenn auch leider bisher ohne Resonanz: 
https://blog.openstreetmap.de/blog/2020/04/bleibt-offen-von-openstreetmap-zeigt-geschaefte-die-weiterhin-geoeffnet-sind/


3. Das französische Team hat mehrere Kategorien ergänzt, neue Features 
implementiert, die Usability verbessert und eine App veröffentlicht, die 
in den nächsten Tagen auch in deutscher Sprache erscheinen soll. Eine 
Chronik findet ihr unter: https://www.bleibtoffen.org/chronik.html


4. Nach Frankreich kommen die meisten User der Seite aus Deutschland.


**Wie geht es mit „Bleibt offen“ weiter?**

Soweit möglich, passen wir die Kategorien zeitnah an die aktuelle 
Situation an. So werden als Reaktion auf die 800-Quadratmeter-Regel in 
den nächsten Tagen voraussichtlich alle "shop"s in Deutschland anzeigt. 
Wenn ihr Anregungen habt, erstellt am besten ein Ticket im Repository:

https://github.com/bleibtoffen/bleibtoffen/issues

Ansonsten werden weiterhin fortlaufend Änderungsmeldungen erfasst, wovon 
die meisten automatisch in OSM übernommen werden können. Von dieser 
Automatik ausgenommen sind Meldung mit ausgefülltem Kommentarfeld.


Meldungen mit Kommentar werden **nicht** automatisch in OSM übernommen, 
sondern es wird ein OSM-Hinweis erstellt, der eine manuelle Bearbeitung 
erfordert. Eine Anleitung findet ihr in diesem Artikel auf unserem Blog: 
https://www.bleibtoffen.org/2020/04/18/hinweise-bearbeiten.html


Wenn ihr das Projekt unterstützen möchtet, dann bearbeitet am besten 
diese OSM-Hinweise (#caresteouvert) und übertragt die covid19-Tags. :)


Die Kommentare weisen z.T. auf Namensänderungen, dauerhaft geschlossene 
Geschäfte oder fehlende Geschäfte in der Nähe hin, was je nach 
Plausibilität direkt umgesetzt werden kann oder verifiziert werden muss.


Ich danke allen, die „Bleibt offen“ unterstützen und weitertragen.

Viele Grüße,
Claas

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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] En regardant passer le train...

[osm . sanspourriel]

OSM c'est une "doacracy" et certains peuvent mettre de beaux
commentaires "I altered the Path of California State Highway 138 to meet
the current alignment. Caltrans opened the new section this year" et
faire du travail de patachon :

https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=id=654843220#map=18/34.32508/-117.45495

(La partie "track" au sud est visiblement l'ancienne route qui n'existe
plus côté ouest). C'est pourtant toujours elle qui fait partie de la CA
138 selon OSM. 3 morceaux selon
http://ra.osmsurround.org/analyzeRelation?relationId=349640&_noCache=on

Donc la CA 138 est cassée mais Amazon Logistics ajoute sur ce tronçon
les restrictions pour tourner à droite ou à gauche : toujours une
doacracy, chacun ses priorités.

Dans cette partie-ci
,
il semble que le zig-zag soit dû à un état temporaire de la route -
déviation - qui est resté.

Sur le changeset il y avait "review_requested
=yes".

Et aussi "changesets_count
=1". Donc qu'il casse la relation, pas vraiment étonnant.

Marc te rappellera l'importance d'accueillir les nouveaux. C'est valable
dans le Far West aussi.

Tu le contactes (in English) sur le changeset ? Tu fais la modif
proprement ?

Sachant que la personne a contribué 2 fois et la dernière fois il y près
d'un an, je ne sais si ça vaut le coup.

Maintenant il avait demandé de l'aide les 2 fois et n'avait pas eu de
réponse.

Ça peut donc être un moyen de le réactiver. L'autre modif est meilleure
sauf que vu que nombre d'imageries sont assez anciennes (en fait la même
mais traité différemment) il n'aurait pas fallu supprimer la route mais
la préfixer de demolished:.

Donc pour revenir à ta question du début, l'habitat est concentré en
Amérique du Nord (CA, USA) même s'il y a de l'étalement urbain au format
XXL. Et dans ces coins éloignés, le réseau routier c'est essentiellement
de l'import Tiger (d'où ce track marqué comme 2 voies qui était un
import direct). À côté tu as du résidentiel sans le moindre bâti :
encore un import Tiger brut de fonderie et qui de plus croise la voie
ferrée alors que visiblement il n'y a plus de passage à niveau (à moins
que la route soit réservée à des 4x4 qui entretiennent la ligne
électrique et passe par dessus les voies ferrées sans aménagement).

Jean-Yvon, du Far West mais tendance far breton

Le 26/04/2020 à 12:11, Eric SIBERT - courr...@eric.sibert.fr a écrit :

En ces temps de confinement, on regarde n'importe quoi sur youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wT5O0k3vec

Puis assez rapidement, je me demande où c'est dans OSM. Tiens, on voit
une voie ferrée dans la vidéo qui n'est pas dans OSM. Qu'est-ce qu'on
a comme source? Bing. C'est bien calé ça? Allons voir l'échangeur
autoroutier voisin. À voir les traces GPS et Mapillary, Bing est bien
calé. Par contre les bretelles de l'échangeur... :-(. D'ailleurs, il
n'y a pas que la position. Il y aussi le nombre de voies, les
séparations de bretelle et j'en passe, qui posent problème. Trop gros
chantier. Je me contente de rajouter la seconde voie ferrée.

Puis sur la fin de la vidéo, il y a une route qui fait des zigzags le
long de la voie. Là, il y a eu des travaux, qu'on voit sur la vidéo.
La route a été reprofilée. Ça a été intégré dans OSM à la hache. Plus,
manque un pont. La relation de la route est restée sur le tronçon
désaffecté...

Donc, la question: le réseau routier US dans OSM, c'est tout comme ça?

Bon confinement.

Eric

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Re: [Talk-it] [www.covid19italia.info] Consegne a domicilio e suosm

[Francesco Ansanelli]

Ciao,

Il dom 26 apr 2020, 21:33 Cascafico Giovanni  ha
scritto:

> Recentemente sono stati aggiornati i campi di suosm [1] con le consegne a
> domicilio e consegne in periodo covid19, nonchè i relativi campi
> descrittivi;
>

E anche nuovi metodi di pagamento. 

un esempio di nota generata lo trovate in mezzo al mare [2]. Mi sembra
> funzioni tutto.
>

Grazie ancora per i suggerimenti e soprattutto per i test!
Francesco

>
>
> [1] https://su.openstreetmap.it/
> [2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/2172928
>
> Il giorno ven 3 apr 2020 alle ore 12:51 Cascafico Giovanni <
> cascaf...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>> Che ne dite di trasmettere a covid19italia [1] lo strumento di
>> auto-segnalazione su.openstreetmap.it?
>>
>> Non so qualle sia la popolarità di covid19italia, ma nel caso fosse molto
>> letto, potrebbe innescare parecchie note OSM.
>>
>> Pensavo ad un testo del genere:
>>
>> per *segnalazioni georiferite*:
>> alcuni mappatori openstreetmap hanno svuiluppato lo strumento online
>> https://su.openstreetmap.it
>> Si tratta di un form che guida nella segnalazione di attività
>> commerciali.
>> Il form genera una nota OSM ed i mappatori ne curano la standardizzazione
>> e l'inserimento in OSM. Ciò apre la possibilità di molteplici
>> rappresentazioni su mappa partendo da dati in un unico database. Per il
>> covid19 è stato appena implementato il campo delivery
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [1] https://www.covid19italia.info/segnala/iniziative-servizi
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] erreur osmose que je ne comprend pas

[deuzeffe]

Le 26/04/2020 à 20:57, osm.sanspourr...@spamgourmet.com a écrit :
Le message au niveau de l'IHM (ou le sous-titre dans la page passée) est 
assez clair :


/Est-ce un arrêt de bus ou de tramway ? Ajouter un attribut pour 
préciser le type d'arrêt. /


Et dans le titre : fr	Ancien attribut manquant sur un arrêt de transport 
en commun


So ?

--
deuzeffe - peut-être les deux manquent, va savoir.

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Re: [Talk-it] [www.covid19italia.info] Consegne a domicilio e suosm

[Cascafico Giovanni]

Recentemente sono stati aggiornati i campi di suosm [1] con le consegne a
domicilio e consegne in periodo covid19, nonchè i relativi campi
descrittivi; un esempio di nota generata lo trovate in mezzo al mare [2].
Mi sembra funzioni tutto.


[1] https://su.openstreetmap.it/
[2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/2172928

Il giorno ven 3 apr 2020 alle ore 12:51 Cascafico Giovanni <
cascaf...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

> Che ne dite di trasmettere a covid19italia [1] lo strumento di
> auto-segnalazione su.openstreetmap.it?
>
> Non so qualle sia la popolarità di covid19italia, ma nel caso fosse molto
> letto, potrebbe innescare parecchie note OSM.
>
> Pensavo ad un testo del genere:
>
> per *segnalazioni georiferite*:
> alcuni mappatori openstreetmap hanno svuiluppato lo strumento online
> https://su.openstreetmap.it
> Si tratta di un form che guida nella segnalazione di attività commerciali.
> Il form genera una nota OSM ed i mappatori ne curano la standardizzazione
> e l'inserimento in OSM. Ciò apre la possibilità di molteplici
> rappresentazioni su mappa partendo da dati in un unico database. Per il
> covid19 è stato appena implementato il campo delivery
>
>
>
>
> [1] https://www.covid19italia.info/segnala/iniziative-servizi
>
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[Talk-GB] TfL Cycle Infrastructure Database - matching against OSM

[Richard Fairhurst]

Hi folks,

You’ll remember that a couple of weeks ago I posted about the work I’m doing to 
look at getting the relevant bits of Transport for London’s openly licensed 
Cycle Infrastructure Database into OSM.

I’ve now pushed the in-progress code to github:

https://github.com/cyclestreets/tflcid-conversion

It takes the TfL CID files, compares them against OSM (by making queries 
against a freshly loaded Postgres database), and outputs a series of files for 
each datatype, all categorised by the type of editing that will be required to 
get them into OSM. So, for example, there’s a script that takes TfL’s cycle 
parking data and compares it against OSM, then outputs three files: one of TfL 
locations that aren’t in OSM, one of those which are in both, and one of those 
which are in OSM only.

It’s pretty in-depth stuff. The cycle parking alone is a 300+ line script. 
There are five separate scripts for different types of traffic calming, another 
300-line script for cycle lanes, and so on. The matching logic is distinct for 
each type of data - because, for example, speed bumps aren’t at junctions, but 
raised tables often are. There’s a script (.rb) and a readme (.md) for each one 
at:

https://github.com/cyclestreets/tflcid-conversion/tree/master/readers

But if you don’t fancy delving into complex Ruby/PostGIS scripts, then just 
have a look at the readmes there, and then go straight to the output data:

https://github.com/cyclestreets/tflcid-conversion/tree/master/output

It’s all in GeoJSON format (for now) for ease of loading into QGIS or similar 
tools. Plus there’s a raster tileset of the cycle lanes/tracks for easy 
reference in your editor of choice - see https://osm.cycle.travel for details 
and a browsable map.

So, where next?

As you’ll see, I’ve generally split the output between simple, uncontentious 
additions which can go into OSM fairly simply, and those objects that will 
require more work to integrate.

Much of the data can obviously only be integrated into OSM with serious manual 
editing work. This is particularly true of the cycle lanes and tracks, which 
will require adding extra tags to existing roads, splitting at start/end 
points, and so on. TfL have committed to some staff time to get much of this 
done (yay!) and Martin at CycleStreets has been training them up on OSM, but 
obviously work patterns are a bit disrupted at the moment so this won’t 
necessarily happen too soon.

Some of it can go into OSM in a more-or-less automated fashion. This is 
particularly true of the cycle parking, and of most speed bumps. Some 
crossings, chicanes, barriers, and continuous pavements (sidewalks) at 
side-roads could potentially go in. I’ll be doing a bit more work on these to 
get them into a format which could perhaps form an automated edit and would 
welcome views.

And, obviously, if you’d like to get involved in bringing the data into OSM, 
that’s great! I’m very happy to put more work in to get it into a format 
that’ll be useful for people (not really being a JOSMite myself ;) ).

cheers
Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] erreur osmose que je ne comprend pas

[Marc M.]

l'ancien atrribut (legacy en anglais) c'est highway=bus_stop <>
railway=plateform/tram_stop/stop/station <> railway=tram_stop <> encore
une valeur différente pour chaque moyen de transport

Le 26.04.20 à 20:57, osm.sanspourr...@spamgourmet.com a écrit :
> Le message au niveau de l'IHM (ou le sous-titre dans la page passée) est
> assez clair :
> 
> /Est-ce un arrêt de bus ou de tramway ? Ajouter un attribut pour
> préciser le type d'arrêt. /
> 
> Donc Osmose te demande d'ajouter bus=yes je suppose puisque le stop
> correspondant correspond à une route de type bus. C'est vrai qu'on
> pourrait préciser "par exemple bus=yes" qui doit correspondre à 95 % des
> cas.
> 
> Jean-Yvon
> 
> Le 26/04/2020 à 20:02, David Crochet - david.croc...@free.fr a écrit :
>> Bonjour
>>
>> Je n'arrive pas à comprendre ce qui manque pour ce  genre d'erreurs :
>> http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/fr/error/af6b5e03-eb7b-520d-8790-37ebc5d7d629
>>
>> Il veux quoi comme attribut ?

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[Talk-it] Microgrants della OSM Foundation

[Alessandro Sarretta]

Buonasera a tutte e tutti,

la OpenStreetMap Foundation ha aperto dal 19 Aprile la possibilità di 
proporre dei progetti su OSM per ottenere dei microgrant fino a 5000€.


Qui la comunicazione di Chris Beddowsul blog di OSM: 
https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2020/04/26/comunicazione-di-apertura-delle-applicazioni-per-microgrant-della-osm-foundation/?lang=it


C'è tempo fino al 10 Maggio per mandare delle proposte.

A questa pagina c'è la guida per l'applicazione: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Microgrants/Microgrants_2020


A me sembra una buona occasione per provare a far passare dei bei 
progetti che permettano alla nostra comunità di contribuire in modo più 
efficace e efficiente a OSM. Sarebbe bello provare a coordinarsi per 
avere almeno 1-2 proposte condivise. Poi ovviamente ciascuno può 
proporre iniziative personali o locali.


Buona serata,

Ale


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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] erreur osmose que je ne comprend pas

[osm . sanspourriel]

Le message au niveau de l'IHM (ou le sous-titre dans la page passée) est
assez clair :

/Est-ce un arrêt de bus ou de tramway ? Ajouter un attribut pour
préciser le type d'arrêt. /

Donc Osmose te demande d'ajouter bus=yes je suppose puisque le stop
correspondant correspond à une route de type bus. C'est vrai qu'on
pourrait préciser "par exemple bus=yes" qui doit correspondre à 95 % des
cas.

Jean-Yvon

Le 26/04/2020 à 20:02, David Crochet - david.croc...@free.fr a écrit :

Bonjour

Je n'arrive pas à comprendre ce qui manque pour ce  genre d'erreurs :
http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/fr/error/af6b5e03-eb7b-520d-8790-37ebc5d7d629

Il veux quoi comme attribut ?

Cordialement

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Re: [Talk-GB] underfoot art

[Peter Neale via Talk-GB]

Pavement art, or perhaps street painting?

Street painting - Wikipedia  
|  
|   
|   
|   ||

   |

  |
|  
|   |  
Street painting - Wikipedia
 

  |   |

  |

  |

  

Regards,Peter

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 at 15:32, Martin Wynne wrote:   What 
is this stuff called?

  https://goo.gl/maps/uVVfLbicFhT25TM5A

  https://goo.gl/maps/5g1yJnsAGEHzpqqY6

I got as far as tourism=artwork but then

  artwork_type= ?

thanks,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-it] Adesione italiana a portale "Ca reste ouvert"

[Nap Osm]

Buonasera ragazzi, sembra che in Germania vogliano fare una cosa simile a 
quella che volevamo fare noi ovvero mostrare tutti i negozi sulla mappa.
https://github.com/osmontrouge/caresteouvert/issues/558
Magari potremmo entrare nella discussione e provare anche noi a fare una cosa 
simile.

From: Martin Koppenhoefer 
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 8:49 AM
To: openstreetmap list - italiano 
Subject: Re: [Talk-it] Adesione italiana a portale "Ca reste ouvert"



sent from a phone

> On 23. Apr 2020, at 06:44, Alessandro Sarretta 
>  wrote:
>
> Loro però in realtà hanno come primo target le opening_hours, non il 
> delivery, e quindi il punto di partenza è un po' diverso.


nel mio piccolo qui ho riscontrato quasi tutti gli orari diversi durante il 
covid
Sia catene (conad) che negozi piccoli. Inoltre le catene/brand non sono 
necessariamente gestite dalla stessa società, per esempio ci sono tipi diversi 
per conad ed euronics.


Ciao Martin



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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] erreur osmose que je ne comprend pas

[deuzeffe]

Le 26/04/2020 à 20:02, David Crochet a écrit :

Bonjour

Je n'arrive pas à comprendre ce qui manque pour ce  genre d'erreurs : 
http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/fr/error/af6b5e03-eb7b-520d-8790-37ebc5d7d629 


Il veux quoi comme attribut ?


highway=bus_stop ?

--
deuzeffe

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[OSM-talk-fr] erreur osmose que je ne comprend pas

[David Crochet]

Bonjour

Je n'arrive pas à comprendre ce qui manque pour ce  genre d'erreurs : 
http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/fr/error/af6b5e03-eb7b-520d-8790-37ebc5d7d629


Il veux quoi comme attribut ?

Cordialement

--
David Crochet


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Re: [Talk-GB] OSMF microgrants

[Jez Nicholson]

Not entirely serious/thought through, but i'd like to but an electric bike,
cover it with OSM branding, and camera kit for making
Mapillary/OpenStreetCam video. The bike then gets taken round various
cities in the UK as a focal point for increasing the public's knowledge and
contribution to OSM in the UK.

On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 11:58 AM Rob Nickerson 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Just wanted to follow up on this to see if anyone had ideas for the OSMF
> microgrant scheme.
>
> Thanks
> Rob
>
> On Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 17:49 Rob Nickerson, 
> wrote:
>
>> Here are some ideas to get us started. Happy for anyone to pick these up
>> and run with them. If you do, please let me know otherwise I may raise some
>> myself:
>>
>> *Design and production of a series of leaflets. *
>> I really liked the Wikimedia leaflets that were handed out at the OSM UK
>> AGM in London. We borrowed the style to create a leaflet in advance of the
>> MOVE 2020 conference. This one is corporate focused and hence we could do
>> with a series of leaflets targeting different audiences (Wikimedia had 2
>> leaflets at our AGM).
>>
>> *Costs related to hosting.*
>> I'm pretty sure quite a few people would appreciate this.
>>
>> *Software projects.*
>> I'm hoping we can come up with a few ideas here too. Personally I am
>> finding myself using my laptop less and less and doing a lot more on my
>> phone. A few of the OSM websites I use don't work that well on mobile so it
>> may be nice to see some changes here. I'm expecting others to have much
>> better ideas than me here though! :-D
>>
>>
>>- *Merchandise (swag) to recognize exceptional volunteer
>>contributions, or low-cost swag.*
>>- Subsidizing the cost of the hi-vis jacket scheme run by OSM UK.
>>
>>
>>
>>- *Funding for shared mapping equipment.*
>>- What about a drone? Some bike and car mounts to help us collect
>>more Mapillary / OpenStreetCam imagery?
>>
>>
>> That's my starter for ten. Looking forward to seeing your ideas.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> *Rob*
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 19 Apr 2020 at 17:17, Rob Nickerson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> The OSMF launched their microgrant scheme today. Value is up to EUR 5000
>>> (GBP 4,300) and projects can last up to 12 months.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2020/04/19/announcing-the-osm-foundations-call-for-microgrant-applications/
>>>
>>> Anyone wishing to submit a proposal "should discuss with the relevant
>>> local communities" and apparently "must consult with your Local Chapter if
>>> applicable".
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what that last point means. If it means the board then you
>>> can reach us on bo...@osmuk.org. If it means the wider membership then
>>> I suggest posting here or to our Loomio group. We are happy to collate and
>>> send a mailchimp newsletter to all our OSM UK members to ensure they get
>>> the messages (as not sure if all read this list or Loomio).
>>>
>>> Moving on from the admin, what ideas do you have? :-)
>>>
>>> Best wishes
>>> *Rob*
>>>
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Re: [Talk-it] [evento] FOSS4G Italia 2020

[stefano campus]

Buongiorno a tutti,
abbiamo caricato sulla piattaforma Zenodo, Community FOSS4G IT 2020, le
registrazioni video di tutte le sessioni.
Nei metadati di ogni record trovate:
- la scansione temporale degli interventi entro la sessione;
- i link al record Zenodo del PDF della relativa presentazione.

I video si aggiungono alle presentazioni e alla raccolta degli abstract già
pubblicate nelle settimane passate.

https://zenodo.org/communities/foss4g-it2020/

s.



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Re: [talk-au] Anzacathon and mapping possibilities

[Andy Townsend]

On 26/04/2020 14:52, Simon Poole wrote:

...  I would suggest at least giving a heads up on a
suitable country specific medium before proceeding, doing otherwise is
just going to lead to strife.

It's an import, so the guidelines linked from 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import would apply.  That needn't be 
a problem - if the plans are good and the necessary steps are followed 
then (based on comments so far from GB and AU) I don't think people 
would complain.  What would be a problem would be if lots of "duplicate 
cemeteries" started appearing, or "cemeteries in obviously the wrong place".


Best Regards,

Andy



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[Talk-GB] underfoot art

[Martin Wynne]

What is this stuff called?

 https://goo.gl/maps/uVVfLbicFhT25TM5A

 https://goo.gl/maps/5g1yJnsAGEHzpqqY6

I got as far as tourism=artwork but then

 artwork_type= ?

thanks,

Martin.

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Re: [talk-au] Anzacathon and mapping possibilities

[Simon Poole]

At the danger of pointing out the glaringly obvious: assuming that
licence etc gets sorted out, the data is not being added in Australia,
but in other countries. If the number of imported elements is above a
handful in a country I would suggest at least giving a heads up on a
suitable country specific medium before proceeding, doing otherwise is
just going to lead to strife.

Simon




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Re: [talk-au] Anzacathon and mapping possibilities

[Daniel Pocock]

On 21/04/2020 13:50, Warin wrote:
> On 21/4/20 7:57 pm, Daniel Pocock wrote:
>> On 21/04/2020 09:53, Greg Lauer wrote:
>>> Hi Daniel,
>>>
>>> As both a (very amateur) military historian who has visited many of
>>> battlefields/CWG's through the Asia Pacific, Africa and Europe, as well
>>> as an Open Data proponent, I really like what you are trying to do. But...
>>>
>>> The terms and conditions of OSM in relation to data imports is fairly
>>> clear - unless the data is already licensed under an Open Data Commons
>>> Open Database License (ODbL) then you will need (preferably written)
>>> permission from the copyright holder. 
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines#Step_3_-_License_approval
>>>   
>>>
>>> A cursory glance at each of the providers websites does not indicate
>>> that they have licensed under ODbL. Yes, this is pain, but it is the
>>> only way OSM can ensure that the data can be legally used. Feel free to
>>> send them an email asking if they will give permission to make there
>>> data available in OSM. I can send you a template letter that
>>> explains the licensing conditions to the copyright holder. The CWGC data
>>> set would be great as a global dataset!
>> I've sent the emails but even if they don't respond before the weekend,
>> I still feel that people can do useful activities with the data, even if
>> it is not an import to OSM just yet
> 
> 
> I think all that can be done now is to look at the data, check if it is 
> missing from OSM.
> 
> If missing .. go there and map it, or use what imagery OSM has available and 
> map what you can from that. 
> 
> You cannot copy data from the Anzacathon pages nor any linked pages, 
> at least not any that are not compatible with OSM requirements. 
> 


I asked on the talk-gb list and this was discussed before, they did get
a response from CWGC in 2010:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2020-April/024456.html

contains this link:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-August/010110.html

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Re: [Talk-GB] CWGC: worldwide, war graves

[Daniel Pocock]

On 26/04/2020 14:26, Tony OSM wrote:
> Am browsing the CWGC website as I write, looking at my locality.
> 
> Clearly landuse=cemetery is the principal tag for the typical CWGC
> cemetery - dedicated to military with rows of the fallen.
> 
> There is a proposal for cemetary=sector which appears to have failed.
> 
> CWGC is showing in my locality > 20 locations where there are CWGC
> casualties, most are in local cemeteries and graveyards. Quantity of
> graves is from 1 upwards.
>
> Nationality of the interred also may be important - there may be very
> many commonwealth nationalities in one location.

That is a good point.  For example, Australians may only want to focus
on cemeteries with Anzacs

The CWGC data set includes the number of graves for each nationality
https://anzacathon.com/data-sources.shtml


> If we generate a tag schema it clearly needs to be applicable to other
> grave organisations - e.g. German War Graves Commission - /Volksbund
> Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge/ in German.
> 
> Will we use abbreviation or the full name?

I wonder if these organizations also communicate with each other.  There
may be some opportunity to get further insights from them.  They may
also see some benefit in collaboration with OSM.

> What about a cemetery with multiple organisations graves? (I've seen some)
> 
> URL's to the parent site - CWGC - there could be several in one cemetary.

CWGC tracks over 20,000 cemeteries.  In many of the small ones, it is a
single war grave in a regular cemetery and there is a plaque near the
gate telling people about it.

Here is an example:

https://www.ww2cemeteries.com/allemont-le-rivier-communal-cemetery.html

I went there on my bike and made an updated site, including links back
to OSM:

https://anzac.site/france/le-rivier-d-allemont/

Regards,

Daniel


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Re: [Talk-GB] CWGC: worldwide, war graves

[Colin Smale]

On 2020-04-26 14:26, Tony OSM wrote:

> If we generate a tag schema it clearly needs to be applicable to other grave 
> organisations - e.g. German War Graves Commission - _Volksbund Deutsche 
> Kriegsgräberfürsorge_ in German.

So we need a more abstract concept like "War Cemetery": 

war_cemetery=cwgc 

or 

war_cemetery:cwgc=yes 

I suspect the CWGC don't "own" or "operate" many of these (shared)
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Re: [Talk-GB] CWGC: worldwide, war graves

[Colin Smale]

=yes would flag its existence and someone could add the actual id number
later. I assume you consider the presence of the sign as sufficient
evidence that the site actually exists. It may refer to specific graves
in a general cemetery (so it would be an additional attribute of the
cemetery object) but it may also be a dedicated cemetery in its own
right.

On 2020-04-26 14:16, Andy Townsend wrote:

> That'd work when if I know the reference, but what if I've only seen the sign?
> 
> On 26/04/2020 13:09, Colin Smale wrote: 
> 
> ref:cwgc=* would kill two birds with one stone, would it not? 
> 
> On 2020-04-26 13:44, Andy Townsend wrote: 
> Hello,
> 
> How is it suggested to tag "there are commonwealth war graves here"?
> 
> At least near me, there's usually a fairly large white on green sign near the 
> entrance, so even if it's not something you'd explicitly go out to map, it's 
> often something that you'd notice.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Andy
> 
> On 25/04/2020 22:20, Daniel Pocock wrote: 
> On 25/04/2020 22:55, Michael Booth wrote: This seems to be it:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-August/010110.html
> 
> Found via a search for: site:lists.openstreetmap.org "talk-gb"
> "Commonwealth" Thanks for finding that so quickly
> 
> Daniel, what is actually being proposed to be added to OSM? Is it a list
> of CWG cemeteries that could then be checked against the data we have in
> OSM? I remember seeing a maproulette for cemeteries in Texas, perhaps
> something similar could be done to find missing CWG cemeteries. Please see 
> the CWGC and TracesOfWar lists on this page:
> 
> https://anzacathon.com/data-sources.shtml
> 
> They simply have the name of the cemetery or monument, the latitude and
> the longitude
> 
> CWGC has 20,000 records, TracesOfWar has 120,000 records
> 
> AWM also has about 14,000 records for places but they are not in the
> IPFS world yet.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Daniel
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] CWGC: worldwide, war graves

[Philip Barnes]

On Sun, 2020-04-26 at 12:44 +0100, Andy Townsend wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> How is it suggested to tag "there are commonwealth war graves here"?
> 
> At least near me, there's usually a fairly large white on green sign 
> near the entrance, so even if it's not something you'd explicitly go
> out 
> to map, it's often something that you'd notice.
> 
I must admit I had not thought of it in terms of the UK, but as you say
there are probably war graves in many cemeteries around the country.

I have visited several on my road trips through Northern France, they
are quite distinctive with very white uniform gravestones in straight
lines and always well maintained. They are quite distinctive on
imagery.

As a quick test I ran an overpass turbo query on amenity=cemetery and
name:en=* on an area of North Eastern France/Belgium and that did
produce some interesting results.

https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Tji

The tag cemetery=war_cemetery has some usage.

Visiting them is quite a big thing, one of my Ramblers/CAMRA friends
goes on a coach trip visiting them every year.

Wikidata https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q2312998 leads to 
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q14750991 but I have not idea how you get
back to a list of cemeteries from that category.

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Talk-GB] CWGC: worldwide, war graves

[Tony OSM]

Am browsing the CWGC website as I write, looking at my locality.

Clearly landuse=cemetery is the principal tag for the typical CWGC 
cemetery - dedicated to military with rows of the fallen.


There is a proposal for cemetary=sector which appears to have failed.

CWGC is showing in my locality > 20 locations where there are CWGC 
casualties, most are in local cemeteries and graveyards. Quantity of 
graves is from 1 upwards.


Nationality of the interred also may be important - there may be very 
many commonwealth nationalities in one location.


If we generate a tag schema it clearly needs to be applicable to other 
grave organisations - e.g. German War Graves Commission - /Volksbund 
Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge/ in German.


Will we use abbreviation or the full name?

What about a cemetery with multiple organisations graves? (I've seen some)

URL's to the parent site - CWGC - there could be several in one cemetary.


Tony Shield

TonyS999

On 26/04/2020 12:44, Andy Townsend wrote:

Hello,

How is it suggested to tag "there are commonwealth war graves here"?

At least near me, there's usually a fairly large white on green sign 
near the entrance, so even if it's not something you'd explicitly go 
out to map, it's often something that you'd notice.


Best Regards,

Andy

On 25/04/2020 22:20, Daniel Pocock wrote:


On 25/04/2020 22:55, Michael Booth wrote:

This seems to be it:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-August/010110.html 



Found via a search for: site:lists.openstreetmap.org "talk-gb"
"Commonwealth"

Thanks for finding that so quickly

Daniel, what is actually being proposed to be added to OSM? Is it a 
list
of CWG cemeteries that could then be checked against the data we 
have in

OSM? I remember seeing a maproulette for cemeteries in Texas, perhaps
something similar could be done to find missing CWG cemeteries.

Please see the CWGC and TracesOfWar lists on this page:


https://anzacathon.com/data-sources.shtml

They simply have the name of the cemetery or monument, the latitude and
the longitude

CWGC has 20,000 records, TracesOfWar has 120,000 records

AWM also has about 14,000 records for places but they are not in the
IPFS world yet.

Regards,

Daniel

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Re: [Talk-GB] CWGC: worldwide, war graves

[Andy Townsend]

That'd work when if I know the reference, but what if I've only seen the 
sign?


On 26/04/2020 13:09, Colin Smale wrote:


ref:cwgc=* would kill two birds with one stone, would it not?

On 2020-04-26 13:44, Andy Townsend wrote:


Hello,

How is it suggested to tag "there are commonwealth war graves here"?

At least near me, there's usually a fairly large white on green sign 
near the entrance, so even if it's not something you'd explicitly go 
out to map, it's often something that you'd notice.


Best Regards,

Andy

On 25/04/2020 22:20, Daniel Pocock wrote:


On 25/04/2020 22:55, Michael Booth wrote:

This seems to be it:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-August/010110.html

Found via a search for: site:lists.openstreetmap.org "talk-gb"
"Commonwealth"

Thanks for finding that so quickly


Daniel, what is actually being proposed to be added to OSM? Is it a list
of CWG cemeteries that could then be checked against the data we have in
OSM? I remember seeing a maproulette for cemeteries in Texas, perhaps
something similar could be done to find missing CWG cemeteries.

Please see the CWGC and TracesOfWar lists on this page:


https://anzacathon.com/data-sources.shtml

They simply have the name of the cemetery or monument, the latitude and
the longitude

CWGC has 20,000 records, TracesOfWar has 120,000 records

AWM also has about 14,000 records for places but they are not in the
IPFS world yet.

Regards,

Daniel

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Re: [Talk-GB] CWGC: worldwide, war graves

[Colin Smale]

ref:cwgc=* would kill two birds with one stone, would it not? 

On 2020-04-26 13:44, Andy Townsend wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> How is it suggested to tag "there are commonwealth war graves here"?
> 
> At least near me, there's usually a fairly large white on green sign near the 
> entrance, so even if it's not something you'd explicitly go out to map, it's 
> often something that you'd notice.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Andy
> 
> On 25/04/2020 22:20, Daniel Pocock wrote: 
> On 25/04/2020 22:55, Michael Booth wrote: This seems to be it:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-August/010110.html
> 
> Found via a search for: site:lists.openstreetmap.org "talk-gb"
> "Commonwealth" Thanks for finding that so quickly
> 
> Daniel, what is actually being proposed to be added to OSM? Is it a list
> of CWG cemeteries that could then be checked against the data we have in
> OSM? I remember seeing a maproulette for cemeteries in Texas, perhaps
> something similar could be done to find missing CWG cemeteries. Please see 
> the CWGC and TracesOfWar lists on this page:
> 
> https://anzacathon.com/data-sources.shtml
> 
> They simply have the name of the cemetery or monument, the latitude and
> the longitude
> 
> CWGC has 20,000 records, TracesOfWar has 120,000 records
> 
> AWM also has about 14,000 records for places but they are not in the
> IPFS world yet.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Daniel
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] CWGC: worldwide, war graves

[Andy Townsend]

Hello,

How is it suggested to tag "there are commonwealth war graves here"?

At least near me, there's usually a fairly large white on green sign 
near the entrance, so even if it's not something you'd explicitly go out 
to map, it's often something that you'd notice.


Best Regards,

Andy

On 25/04/2020 22:20, Daniel Pocock wrote:


On 25/04/2020 22:55, Michael Booth wrote:

This seems to be it:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-August/010110.html

Found via a search for: site:lists.openstreetmap.org "talk-gb"
"Commonwealth"

Thanks for finding that so quickly


Daniel, what is actually being proposed to be added to OSM? Is it a list
of CWG cemeteries that could then be checked against the data we have in
OSM? I remember seeing a maproulette for cemeteries in Texas, perhaps
something similar could be done to find missing CWG cemeteries.

Please see the CWGC and TracesOfWar lists on this page:


https://anzacathon.com/data-sources.shtml

They simply have the name of the cemetery or monument, the latitude and
the longitude

CWGC has 20,000 records, TracesOfWar has 120,000 records

AWM also has about 14,000 records for places but they are not in the
IPFS world yet.

Regards,

Daniel

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[OSM-talk-fr] hebdoOSM Nº 509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[theweekly . osm]

Bonjour,

Le résumé hebdomadaire n° 509 de l'actualité OpenStreetMap vient de paraître 
*en français*. Un condensé à retrouver sur :

https://www.weeklyosm.eu/fr/archives/13090/

Bonne lecture !

Saviez-vous que vous pouvez vous aussi soumettre des messages pour la note 
hebdomadaire sans être membre ? Il vous suffit de vous connecter sur 
https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login avec votre compte OSM. Pour en savoir plus 
sur la rédaction d'un article, cliquez ici: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/fr/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm

hebdoOSM ? 
Qui : https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
Où : 
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
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[Talk-ca] hebdoOSM Nº 509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[theweekly . osm]

Bonjour,

Le résumé hebdomadaire n° 509 de l'actualité OpenStreetMap vient de paraître 
*en français*. Un condensé à retrouver sur :

https://www.weeklyosm.eu/fr/archives/13090/

Bonne lecture !

Saviez-vous que vous pouvez vous aussi soumettre des messages pour la note 
hebdomadaire sans être membre ? Il vous suffit de vous connecter sur 
https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login avec votre compte OSM. Pour en savoir plus 
sur la rédaction d'un article, cliquez ici: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/fr/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm

hebdoOSM ? 
Qui : https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
Où : 
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[OSM-talk-fr] En regardant passer le train...

[Eric SIBERT]

En ces temps de confinement, on regarde n'importe quoi sur youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wT5O0k3vec

Puis assez rapidement, je me demande où c'est dans OSM. Tiens, on voit 
une voie ferrée dans la vidéo qui n'est pas dans OSM. Qu'est-ce qu'on a 
comme source? Bing. C'est bien calé ça? Allons voir l'échangeur 
autoroutier voisin. À voir les traces GPS et Mapillary, Bing est bien 
calé. Par contre les bretelles de l'échangeur... :-(. D'ailleurs, il n'y 
a pas que la position. Il y aussi le nombre de voies, les séparations de 
bretelle et j'en passe, qui posent problème. Trop gros chantier. Je me 
contente de rajouter la seconde voie ferrée.


Puis sur la fin de la vidéo, il y a une route qui fait des zigzags le 
long de la voie. Là, il y a eu des travaux, qu'on voit sur la vidéo. La 
route a été reprofilée. Ça a été intégré dans OSM à la hache. Plus, 
manque un pont. La relation de la route est restée sur le tronçon 
désaffecté...


Donc, la question: le réseau routier US dans OSM, c'est tout comme ça?

Bon confinement.

Eric

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[Talk-africa] hebdoOSM Nº 509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[theweekly . osm]

Bonjour,

Le résumé hebdomadaire n° 509 de l'actualité OpenStreetMap vient de paraître 
*en français*. Un condensé à retrouver sur :

https://www.weeklyosm.eu/fr/archives/13090/

Bonne lecture !

Saviez-vous que vous pouvez vous aussi soumettre des messages pour la note 
hebdomadaire sans être membre ? Il vous suffit de vous connecter sur 
https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login avec votre compte OSM. Pour en savoir plus 
sur la rédaction d'un article, cliquez ici: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/fr/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm

hebdoOSM ? 
Qui : https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
Où : 
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[Talk-pt] semanárioOSM Nº 509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[theweekly . osm]

Bom dia,

O semanárioOSM Nº 509, o resumo de tudo o que acontece no mundo OpenStreetMap, 
está publicado *em português* : 

https://www.weeklyosm.eu/pb/archives/13090/

Aproveite!

Você sabia que também pode enviar mensagens para o OSM semanal/semanárioOSMſ 
sem ser membro? Basta fazer login em https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login com 
sua conta OSM e usar a conta de convidado. Leia mais sobre como escrever um 
post aqui: http://www.weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm

semanarioOSM? 
Quem?: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
Onde?: 
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[Talk-es] semanarioOSM Nº 509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[theweekly . osm]

Hola, el semanario Nº 509, el sumario de todo lo que está ocurriendo en el 
mundo de openstreetmap está en línea en *español*:

https://www.weeklyosm.eu/es/archives/13090/

¡Disfruta!

¿Sabías que también puedes enviar mensajes para la nota semanal sin ser 
miembro? Simplemente ingresa a https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login con tu 
cuenta de OSM. Lee más sobre cómo escribir una publicación aquí: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/es/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm 

semanarioOSM? 
¿Dónde?: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
¿Quién?: 
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[Talk-br] semanárioOSM Nº 509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[theweekly . osm]

Bom dia,

O semanárioOSM Nº 509, o resumo de tudo o que acontece no mundo OpenStreetMap, 
está publicado *em português* : 

https://www.weeklyosm.eu/pb/archives/13090/

Aproveite!

Você sabia que também pode enviar mensagens para o OSM semanal/semanárioOSMſ 
sem ser membro? Basta fazer login em https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login com 
sua conta OSM e usar a conta de convidado. Leia mais sobre como escrever um 
post aqui: http://www.weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm

semanarioOSM? 
Quem?: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
Onde?: 
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[Talk-ht] hebdoOSM Nº 509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[theweekly . osm]

Bonjour,

Le résumé hebdomadaire n° 509 de l'actualité OpenStreetMap vient de paraître 
*en français*. Un condensé à retrouver sur :

https://www.weeklyosm.eu/fr/archives/13090/

Bonne lecture !

Saviez-vous que vous pouvez vous aussi soumettre des messages pour la note 
hebdomadaire sans être membre ? Il vous suffit de vous connecter sur 
https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login avec votre compte OSM. Pour en savoir plus 
sur la rédaction d'un article, cliquez ici: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/fr/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm

hebdoOSM ? 
Qui : https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
Où : 
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
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[talk-latam] semanarioOSM Nº 509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[theweekly . osm]

Hola, el semanario Nº 509, el sumario de todo lo que está ocurriendo en el 
mundo de openstreetmap está en línea en *español*:

https://www.weeklyosm.eu/es/archives/13090/

¡Disfruta!

¿Sabías que también puedes enviar mensajes para la nota semanal sin ser 
miembro? Simplemente ingresa a https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login con tu 
cuenta de OSM. Lee más sobre cómo escribir una publicación aquí: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/es/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm 

semanarioOSM? 
¿Dónde?: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
¿Quién?: 
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[OSM-co] semanarioOSM Nº 509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[theweekly . osm]

Hola, el semanario Nº 509, el sumario de todo lo que está ocurriendo en el 
mundo de openstreetmap está en línea en *español*:

https://www.weeklyosm.eu/es/archives/13090/

¡Disfruta!

¿Sabías que también puedes enviar mensajes para la nota semanal sin ser 
miembro? Simplemente ingresa a https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login con tu 
cuenta de OSM. Lee más sobre cómo escribir una publicación aquí: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/es/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm 

semanarioOSM? 
¿Dónde?: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
¿Quién?: 
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
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[Talk-cu] semanarioOSM Nº 509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[theweekly . osm]

Hola, el semanario Nº 509, el sumario de todo lo que está ocurriendo en el 
mundo de openstreetmap está en línea en *español*:

https://www.weeklyosm.eu/es/archives/13090/

¡Disfruta!

¿Sabías que también puedes enviar mensajes para la nota semanal sin ser 
miembro? Simplemente ingresa a https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login con tu 
cuenta de OSM. Lee más sobre cómo escribir una publicación aquí: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/es/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm 

semanarioOSM? 
¿Dónde?: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
¿Quién?: 
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
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[Talk-cl] semanarioOSM Nº 509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[theweekly . osm]

Hola, el semanario Nº 509, el sumario de todo lo que está ocurriendo en el 
mundo de openstreetmap está en línea en *español*:

https://www.weeklyosm.eu/es/archives/13090/

¡Disfruta!

¿Sabías que también puedes enviar mensajes para la nota semanal sin ser 
miembro? Simplemente ingresa a https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login con tu 
cuenta de OSM. Lee más sobre cómo escribir una publicación aquí: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/es/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm 

semanarioOSM? 
¿Dónde?: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
¿Quién?: 
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
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[Talk-GB] weeklyOSM #509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[weeklyteam]

The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 509,
is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of a lot of 
things happening in the openstreetmap world:

 https://www.weeklyosm.eu/en/archives/13090/

Enjoy! 

Did you know that you can also submit messages for the weeklyOSM? Just log in 
to https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login with your OSM account. Read more about 
how to write a post here: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm 

weeklyOSM? 
who: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
where?: 
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
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[Talk-us] weeklyOSM #509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[weeklyteam]

The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 509,
is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of a lot of 
things happening in the openstreetmap world:

 https://www.weeklyosm.eu/en/archives/13090/

Enjoy! 

Did you know that you can also submit messages for the weeklyOSM? Just log in 
to https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login with your OSM account. Read more about 
how to write a post here: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm 

weeklyOSM? 
who: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
where?: 
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[talk-ph] weeklyOSM #509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[weeklyteam]

The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 509,
is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of a lot of 
things happening in the openstreetmap world:

 https://www.weeklyosm.eu/en/archives/13090/

Enjoy! 

Did you know that you can also submit messages for the weeklyOSM? Just log in 
to https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login with your OSM account. Read more about 
how to write a post here: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm 

weeklyOSM? 
who: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
where?: 
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
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[OSM-talk-ie] weeklyOSM #509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[weeklyteam]

The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 509,
is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of a lot of 
things happening in the openstreetmap world:

 https://www.weeklyosm.eu/en/archives/13090/

Enjoy! 

Did you know that you can also submit messages for the weeklyOSM? Just log in 
to https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login with your OSM account. Read more about 
how to write a post here: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm 

weeklyOSM? 
who: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
where?: 
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
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[Talk-in] weeklyOSM #509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[weeklyteam]

The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 509,
is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of a lot of 
things happening in the openstreetmap world:

 https://www.weeklyosm.eu/en/archives/13090/

Enjoy! 

Did you know that you can also submit messages for the weeklyOSM? Just log in 
to https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login with your OSM account. Read more about 
how to write a post here: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm 

weeklyOSM? 
who: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
where?: 
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[Talk-africa] weeklyOSM #509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[weeklyteam]

The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 509,
is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of a lot of 
things happening in the openstreetmap world:

 https://www.weeklyosm.eu/en/archives/13090/

Enjoy! 

Did you know that you can also submit messages for the weeklyOSM? Just log in 
to https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login with your OSM account. Read more about 
how to write a post here: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm 

weeklyOSM? 
who: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
where?: 
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[Talk-ca] weeklyOSM #509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[weeklyteam]

The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 509,
is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of a lot of 
things happening in the openstreetmap world:

 https://www.weeklyosm.eu/en/archives/13090/

Enjoy! 

Did you know that you can also submit messages for the weeklyOSM? Just log in 
to https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login with your OSM account. Read more about 
how to write a post here: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm 

weeklyOSM? 
who: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
where?: 
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[OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[weeklyteam]

The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 509,
is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of a lot of 
things happening in the openstreetmap world:

 https://www.weeklyosm.eu/en/archives/13090/

Enjoy! 

Did you know that you can also submit messages for the weeklyOSM? Just log in 
to https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login with your OSM account. Read more about 
how to write a post here: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm 

weeklyOSM? 
who: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
where?: 
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
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[Talk-de] weeklyOSM #509 2020-04-14-2020-04-20

[weeklyteam]

Die Wochennotiz Ausgabe Nr. # 509, ist nun verfügbar - 
 wie immer mit vielen Nachrichten aus dem OSM-Universium:

 https://www.weeklyosm.eu/de/archives/13090/

 Viel Spaß beim Lesen.  

 Euer Wochennotizteam
 
 Wusstet ihr, dass ihr auch selbst Meldungen für die Wochennotiz
 einreichen könnt? Einfach auf https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/ 
 mit eurem OSM-Benutzerkonto anmelden und dann den Gastzugang benutzen. 

 weeklyOSM? 
 who: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
 where?: 
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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] tile.openstreetmap.nl

[Stefan de Konink]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 5:15:50 PM CEST, Pander OpenTaal wrote:

Super!


Als het draait is de snelheid ongeëvenaard. Maar het loopt nu en dan ook 
tegen een aantal bugs aan waar de ontwikkelaar gelukkig snel op reageert.


1) http/2, in eerste instantie resulteerde dit soms in "halve tiles". De 
halve tiles kwamen zelfs in de disk cache terecht, dat is opgelost.
2) Halve tiles in http/2 door HTTP2_PROTOCOL_ERROR, enorm lastig om te 
reproduceren, al een tijdje niet meer gezien, houden we in de gaten.

3) Vastloper door hangende processen (2x eerder)
4) Segmentation fault (vannacht)

Het is dus nog geen "laten we dit eens algemeen in productie draaien", maar 
gezien het gebruik van tile.openstreetmap.nl wel een mooie plek om een 
echte acceptatietest te draaien.


--
Stefan

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Re: [Talk-at] Lime Betriebsgebiet Wien

[realadry]

Hallo,

Also landuse=commerical is definitiv falsch, da sich dieser Tag auf
Flächenwidmung bzw. Nutzung durch Gebäude oder Flächen bezieht.

Meiner Meinung nach hat eine virtuelle Zone eines privaten Anbieters
auch nichts auf OSM verloren. Diese "Bediengebiete" können sich auch
täglich ändern und sind nicht wie z.B. politische Grenzen gesetzlich
verankert oder in der Realität ersichtlich.

Rein technisch müsste es wahrscheinlich wie eine "Kurzparkzone" (die in
Wien Bezirksweise geregelt ist mit einigen Ausnahmen) gemapped werden,
für sowas gibt es aber derzeit auch keine richtigen tags. Zumindest
konnte ich in der Wiki nichts dazu finden.

Mfg, realadry


Am 26.04.2020 um 09:22 schrieb Robin Daeneke.at:

Hallo,

mir ist heute dieses Changeset [0] aufgefallen, in dem das
Lime-Betriebsgebiet insgesamt als landuse=commercial gemapt wurde.

Ich glaube nicht, dass das so gehört, wollte aber hier mal nachfragen,
bevor ich das Changeset reverte.

Ist es so richtig, gehört es reverted, oder gibt es eine Alternative,
wie man solche “Bediengebiete” abbilden kann?

LG
RobinD (emergency99)

[0]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/796288089

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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] plusieurs structures dans un même bâtiment

[Yves P.]

> Le 25 avr. 2020 à 18:51, Jérôme Amagat  a écrit :
> 
> OSM n'est pas adapter à ce genre de chose
Je suis de l'avis d'Axel, sur "nos" propres limites :)

> alors il faut sûrement l'adapter pour pouvoir gérer des cas plus compliqués
On pourrait utiliser des relations pour rattacher des entités sans coordonnées 
à un objet OSM…
les sociétés dans un édifice…
les antennes GSM sur un support
les personnes décédées dans une sépulture (les polonais l'utilisent)
les points de livraisons des producteurs locaux sur un "marché"…

Les cartes interactives peuvent aussi distribuer les POI superposés : 
http://graves.wiki/#/map/@48.84613,2.34585,17z

> mais je ne suis pas sur que osm soit adapter à devenir un annuaire…
Je suis convaincu que tant qu'il ne le sera pas, les quidams, les élus, les 
entreprises continueront à utiliser des annuaires et des cartes propriétaires…
Suivez mes lunettes ;)

Et chacun de son côté va "réinventer" la roue, disperser l'énergie des fourmis 
et des colibris en essayant de remplir le tonneau des danaïdes.

__
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Re: [Talk-at] Lime Betriebsgebiet Wien

[Friedrich Volkmann]

On 26.04.20 09:22, Robin Daeneke.at wrote:
mir ist heute dieses Changeset [0] aufgefallen, in dem das 
Lime-Betriebsgebiet insgesamt als landuse=commercial gemapt wurde.


Ich glaube nicht, dass das so gehört, wollte aber hier mal nachfragen, bevor 
ich das Changeset reverte.


Ist es so richtig, gehört es reverted, oder gibt es eine Alternative, wie 
man solche “Bediengebiete” abbilden kann?


Können tut man viel, aber so etwas hat in OSM nichts verloren. Lime ist eine 
Firma und ihr Betriebsgebiet im Prinzip nur ein Vertragsbestandteil zwischen 
der Firma und ihren Kunden, genauso wie Tarifzonen von Verkehrsbetrieben, 
Zustell- und Telekomunterunternehmen oder in welche Bezirke eine Pizzeria 
gratis liefert.


--
Friedrich K. Volkmann   http://www.volki.at/
Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria

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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] gestion du cycle de vie des infos [était: Profusion de clés covid19]

[European Water Project]

Bonjour Marc,

Merci pour ton email.

Je ne peut être qu'entièrement d'accord qu'il y a du mérite d'augmenter les
vérifications des données d'une façon ad hoc au niveau objet.

Et en même temps, je pense que d'avoir de metadata au niveau tags sera un
"game changer" pour le maintien de la qualité des données dans OSM.

Pour info : J'ai parlé avec Simon Poole d'OSM Suisse qui me dit qu'il a
parlé avec d'autres d'OSM Suisse et que c'est probablement possible
d'ajouter ce metadata sur les tags assez facilement sans besoin d'attendre
la nouvelle API et d'une façon que laisse la base de donnée 100% "backward
compatible".

A très bientot,

Stuart



On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 15:49, Marc M.  wrote:

> Bonjour Stuart,
>
> Je suis bien conscient que c'est totalement insuffisant.
> mais je suis partisan de la politique des petits pas :
> sans admin osm.org, même avec notre "accord" sur l'utilité
> d'une metadata par tag, cela n'aura pas lieu à court terme
> non seulement parce que api v0.7 n'est pas pour demain mais
> surtout qu'il y a une résistance à l'envisager.
>
> Du coup je pense que le meilleur moyen pour que cela aboutise
> un jour, c'est d'utilise ce qu'on a (les metadata par objet et
> survey:date), montrer que c'est utile et qu'il y a une utilité
> à aller + loin.
>
> donc je vise petit. si ta fontaine est aussi veille que
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/46627516
> cela ne sert a rien de se poser la question de quand date
> la dernier vérif du panneau "eau potable".
> Par contre on peux facilement rajouter dans la liste
> "eau potable : vérif toute les... 3 ans ?"
> (valeur arbitraire, chaque utilisateur choisit ses priorités,
> qui varient sûrement en fonction de la densité de point d'eau
> dans les environs).
>
> Cordialement,
> Marc
>
> Le 21.04.20 à 16:31, European Water Project a écrit :
> > Bonjour Marc,
> >
> > De regarder la date de dernière change set d'un objet ou le tag
> > survey:date d'un objet est certe beaucoup mieux que rien, mais me semble
> > peu ambitieux par rapport à une solution avec du meta data au niveau
> > clef.Par exemple, quelqu'un qui vérifie dans un survey,  l'existence
> > d'une fontaine, ne vérifiera pas systématiquement la potabilité de l'eau
> > ou si l'eau coule. .. qq chose qui devrait être fait tous les x années
> > selon le pays et la région.
> >
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Rarely_verified_and_third-party_data_staleness_in_OpenStreetMap
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A bientôt,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Stuart
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 at 15:24, Marc M.  > > wrote:
> >
> > Bonjour,
> >
> > Merci Stuart d'avoir relancé le sujet ici.
> >
> > Le 21.04.20 à 14:09, European Water Project a écrit :
> > > Est-ce qu'OSMdevrait réfléchir à une durée de vie, si pas vérifiés,
> > > pour certains tags ?
> >
> > je pense que oui, j'ai dans l'idée que nous pourrions construire
> > communautairement une liste de catégorie, un peu comme celle de ta
> page.
> > l'important dans un premier temps n'est pas tant de mettre une durée
> de
> > vie sur des données mais de les classer relativement entre elle.
> >
> > exemple et ordre de grandeur qui me vient en tête :
> > batiment en construction : vérif mensuel
> > borne véhicule électrique : 6 mois
> > commerce : vérif annuelle
> > borne incendie : 2 ans
> > caractéristiques des batiments existant : 10 ans
> >
> > les valeurs exacte importe peu (chacun devrait pouvoir choisir
> > un multiple de celle-ci pour cibler d'abord le "pire" en terme
> > de fraicheur)
> > Mais un ordre de grandeur permet de faire des apps du genre :
> > - si un objet importé n'a jamais été vu (au sens source=survey),
> > proposer à quelqu'un de le valider (et donc améliorer souvent
> > sa position et rajouter d'autre info.
> > (c'est le sens de Geocropping)
> > - si une zone en construction a + de X mois,
> > demander au contributeur si c'est toujours en cours (il me semble
> > que StreetComplete de déjà ce genre de chose)
> > - si un commerce n'a plus été modifié depuis X temps,
> > proposer de le vérifier.
> > - si tu modifies un de ces poi avec source=survey, mettre
> > à jour l'info fraicheur.
> > - si tu modifies un objet avec une source (par ex image sat) + veille
> > que la dernière vue sur le terrain, signaler/demander confirmation
> >
> > Cordialement,
> > Marc
> >
> > ___
> > Talk-fr mailing list
> > Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org 
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
> >
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] plusieurs structures dans un même bâtiment

[Georges Dutreix via Talk-fr]

Merci à tous pour ces retours. Je vais donc mettre plusieurs nœuds au 
besoin.
En plus, il m'apparaît en regardant les sites web et les photos sat, 
qu'assez souvent, il existe une séparation physique.



Le 26/04/2020 à 09:15, Axel Listes a écrit :

Cependant, on a prévu à long terme de représenter l'intérieur des
bâtiments municipaux (indoor mapping), du moins les parties accessibles
au public, et de ce fait repositionner ces points proprement dans ce
second temps.


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[Talk-at] Lime Betriebsgebiet Wien

[Robin Daeneke.at]

Hallo,

mir ist heute dieses Changeset [0] aufgefallen, in dem das Lime-Betriebsgebiet 
insgesamt als landuse=commercial gemapt wurde.

Ich glaube nicht, dass das so gehört, wollte aber hier mal nachfragen, bevor 
ich das Changeset reverte.

Ist es so richtig, gehört es reverted, oder gibt es eine Alternative, wie man 
solche “Bediengebiete” abbilden kann?

LG
RobinD (emergency99)

[0]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/796288089___
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] plusieurs structures dans un même bâtiment

[Axel Listes]

Le 25/04/2020 à 16:36, Frantz a écrit :
> Vu les demandes, ça ne va pas tarder à arriver pour les services des mairies.

Dans la commune ou je travaille, pour afficher les informations relatifs
aux services municipaux qui sont toujours en fonction (mais uniquement
via téléphone et courriel), on a décidé effectivement de mettre
plusieurs points à l'entrée du bâtiment de la mairie, l'accueil.

Cependant, on a prévu à long terme de représenter l'intérieur des
bâtiments municipaux (indoor mapping), du moins les parties accessibles
au public, et de ce fait repositionner ces points proprement dans ce
second temps.

OSM est un outil en constante évolution, même si aujourd'hui ces
évolutions sont minimes car l'outil est déjà très complet et il faut
éviter de casser le "squelette" actuellement exploité, il n'en reste pas
moins que c'est le besoin qui générera la réponse technique. Il ne faut
donc pas se limiter à respecter des contraintes imposées par un manque
de réflexions sur certains cas d'usages car déjà trop encadrés.

On peut réaliser une comparaison avec l'adressage, ou de nombreux
contributeurs veulent absolument respecter certaines contraintes pour
rentrer dans un schéma de localisation similaire à d'autres structures,
cadastre et consorts, alors qu'OSM permet de grande chose car peut
proposer une grande souplesse si on se libère de ces contraintes.

Axel.

-- 

"Un peuple prêt à sacrifier un peu de liberté pour un peu de sécurité ne
mérite ni l'une ni l'autre, et finit par perdre les deux."
Citation de Benjamin Franklin.

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