[talk-au] Implications of license change on use of Australian data sources (e.g. nearmap)
If The License Change goes ahead, will that have any influence on, say, the legality of tracing from nearmap imagery? Does it appear as though some contributions will have to be removed if The License Change happens? If so, what kind of contributions? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Implications of license change on use of Australian data sources (e.g. nearmap)
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009, John Smith wrote: Nearmap allows in their TC's to derive data, the data is under the license of the person deriving it chooses to release it under. The bigger issue was the AU Govt data, but that has fixed it self since it was relicensed as cc-by from cc-by-sa but it still is not clear if the au govt data can go into the ODbL because it can never be owned by OSMF ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Implications of license change on use of Australian data sources (e.g. nearmap)
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 6:26 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/12/9 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com: If The License Change goes ahead, will that have any influence on, say, the legality of tracing from nearmap imagery? Does it appear as though some contributions will have to be removed if The License Change happens? If so, what kind of contributions? Nearmap allows in their TC's to derive data, the data is under the license of the person deriving it chooses to release it under. Hmm...the following is from http://www.nearmap.com/legal/community-licence.aspx: If you derive information from observing our PhotoMaps, and include that information in a work, you will own that work, and may distribute it to others under a Creative Commons licence. Does that not imply that the derived information may only be distributed to others under a Creative Commons licence? Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Implications of license change on use of Australian data sources (e.g. nearmap)
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009, John Smith wrote: Although. If CC-BY-SA isn't likely to stand in Australia for OSM it isn't likely to stand for anyone else either If its good enough for the Au guvmint, who can afford lawyers, it is probably protective in Au. -- You have had a long-term stimulation relative to business. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote: Make sure if you are going to enter fuel information then you include all types, (lpg, 91, 95, 98 octane, diesel, etc) More: Automotive LPG is different tax-wise from barbecue LPG and therefore sold and dispensed differently, sometimes you can refill your own LPG bottle and sometimes you can only buy a full one or swap an empty one for a full one. Alpine diesel is a different fuel from normal diesel and usually only sold during the winter months in alpine areas. Ethanol is for drinking and swindling motorists and governments out of some cash so it should be noted for those of us who'd rather push the car than put E10 in it. Also some servos have pre-mixed two-stroke fuel, kerosene or firewood available, just in case you drive a ride-on mower or a wood-fired traction engine with satnav. Or maybe that's going a little too far. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Using Nearmap with JOSM
Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: don't like about Potlatch. I started with Potlatch, switched to JOSM, then went back to Potlatch. There weren't enough extra features in JOSM to justify using a separate app in offline mode, for my liking... IMO there is one very important feature to be mentioned: The validator plugin. It is way too easy to enter bad data with Potlatch. JOSM will tell you when you try to upload unconnected ways or non-closed area, etc. With potlatch, you will never be told something is wrong unless you keep an eye on keep right! where you see what's wrong a few days later. Best regards from Germany Dieter ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
2009/12/9 Sam Couter s...@couter.id.au: and usually only sold during the winter months in alpine areas. Ethanol is for drinking and swindling motorists and governments out of some cash so As if the govt doesn't get enough tax already, and they get tax on top of tax when the GST kicks in. Anyway, this is getting off topic, the fields from the BP are as following, most are binary fields (Y or N), no idea what the other field is for. NAME,X,Y, LocationNo, Street, Town, State, Postcode, Phone, Unlead, PremiumUnlead, BPUltimate, E10, Diesel, Any_Autogas, Hours_24, Trailers, LPGBottle, Toilets, CarWash, CleanGo, SuperWash, Other, Pay, EFTPOS, GIFT_CARD, ATM, Restaurant, TruckStops, Express, BP_UltimateDiesel ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
2009/12/9 Liz ed...@billiau.net: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009, Sam Couter wrote: Ethanol is for drinking and swindling motorists and governments out of some cash so it should be noted for those of us who'd rather push the car than put E10 in it. I thought E10 was so I didn't have to pay a 30c per litre premium to put 95 octane fuel in a car. The problem with E10 for most cars is it doesn't recognise the extra oxygen atom so the car runs less effiecent by about 3% which is why it's 3% cheaper most of the time, however cars in the US can run up to E85 because the chip in the car can auto sense the extra oxygen and alter the the fuel/air mix. The other problem for older cars is the the fuel line may not be able to cope with the ethernol and can eat the rubber/plastic away, most/all modern cars don't suffer this problem. Of course by using ethernol you are burning food, luckily most of which is from sugar cane in Australia, which has about an 8x return of energy unlike the silly americans burning corn which doesn't even break even energy wise and it's driving up the cost of fertilisers etc and making food production more expensive and so the world goes on starving. Of course if they pumped the waste from coal fire power plants into green houses that have water tanks full of algea and then turn the algea into fuel you gat something like 40,000-80,000L of ethernol per acre, it gets rid of all the emissions in a safe manner and we don't need to import crude oil. But of course that would be too smart so we can't have that. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009, John Smith wrote: Anyway, this is getting off topic, the fields from the BP are as following, most are binary fields (Y or N), no idea what the other field is for. NAME,X,Y, LocationNo, Street, Town, State, Postcode, Phone, Unlead, PremiumUnlead, BPUltimate, E10, Diesel, Any_Autogas, Hours_24, Trailers, LPGBottle, Toilets, CarWash, CleanGo, SuperWash, Other, Pay, EFTPOS, GIFT_CARD, ATM, Restaurant, TruckStops, Express, BP_UltimateDiesel give us some practical examples and we can go and visit our local BP servos and try to work out what Other is ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 8:52 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: NAME,X,Y, LocationNo, Street, Town, State, Postcode, Phone, Unlead, PremiumUnlead, BPUltimate, E10, Diesel, Any_Autogas, Hours_24, Trailers, LPGBottle, Toilets, CarWash, CleanGo, SuperWash, Other, Pay, EFTPOS, GIFT_CARD, ATM, Restaurant, TruckStops, Express, BP_UltimateDiesel Can we really maintain this? These services come and go fairly frequently. Also, if you're doing a bulk import, how do you avoid double tagging existing servos? Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
2009/12/9 Liz ed...@billiau.net: give us some practical examples and we can go and visit our local BP servos and try to work out what Other is AA Oakleigh 145.09 -37.88 5362162 - 168 Warrigal Rd Oakleigh VIC 3166 AA Reservoir145.02 -37.72 372235 - 37 Gisborne Cres Reservoir VIC 3073 BP Capalaba 153.19 -27.52 4208Corner Of Old Cleveland Road And Dollery RoadCapalabaQLD 4157 BP Connect Eagle Vale 150.82 -34.03 2806Cnr Eagle Vale Dr Gould Rd Eagle Vale NSW 2558 BP Connect Elizabeth Vale 138.68 -34.74 5204Cnr Main North Rd Hogarth Rd Elizabeth Vale SA 5112 BP Connect Loganholme 153.19 -27.69 81424120 Pacific MotorwayLOGANHOLME QLD 4129 BP Connect Wembley 115.82 -31.94 6211240 Cambridge StWembley WA 6014 BP Darlington 138.58 -35.01 59451483 South Rd Darlington SA 5047 BP Express Modbury 138.68 -34.83 9132931 North East Rd Modbury SA 5092 BP Georges Hall 151 -33.92 9513Cnr Marion St Surrey Ave GEORGES HALLNSW 2198 BP Granville151 -33.83 558527 Woodville Road Granville NSW 2142 BP Holden Hill 138.67 -34.85 5965724 North East Road Holden Hill SA 5088 BP Kelmscott116.02 -32.12 54962907 Albany Highway Kelmscott WA 6111 BP Kootingal Country Inn151.05 -31.06 85912 Chelmsford St Kootingal NSW 2352 BP Loftus 151.05 -34.05 899 127 Loftus avenue loftus NSW 2232 BP Marmor 150.74 -23.69 5360Bruce Hwy Marmor QLD 4702 BP Seven Hills 150.94 -33.77 985 156 Prospect HwySeven Hills NSW 2147 BP Steel River 151.73 -32.89 582310 Murray Dwyer Circuit Mayfield West NSW 2304 BP Tarneit 144.69 -37.85 5801CORNER OF DERRIMUT ROAD AND SAYERS ROADTARNEIT VIC 3029 ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Implications of license change on use of Australian data sources (e.g. nearmap)
On 09/12/2009, at 6:38 PM, Roy Wallace wrote: If you derive information from observing our PhotoMaps, and include that information in a work, you will own that work, and may distribute it to others under a Creative Commons licence. Does that not imply that the derived information may only be distributed to others under a Creative Commons licence? Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly? As mentioned by others, the obvious thing to do is ask the NearMap guys (I've explicitly CC'd Alex, in case he isn't reading the list) what they meant - that's more important than what they actually wrote, since we'd obviously want to be nice to them. But just going off what is written there, if the person tracing owns it (in the copyright holder sense), then they can license it however they want. In that case, a CC license is just an option (and it says may not may only or must). With respect to ODbL, I think import CC-BY data into an ODbL database is fine - we'd fulfil the attribution requirement (CC-BY-SA wouldn't be, on the other hand). The problem if OSM goes ahead with the re-license would be the contributor terms, that means you can't import CC-BY data without the copyright holders approval. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
2009/12/9 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: Can we really maintain this? These services come and go fairly frequently. Just keep a list of nodes/ways and the location ID and it should be trivial to keep up to date. Also, if you're doing a bulk import, how do you avoid double tagging existing servos? You can pull nodes within a few hundred metres and try to auto match, or manual import. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
On 09/12/2009, at 8:26 PM, Steve Bennett wrote: Can we really maintain this? These services come and go fairly frequently. Individual things like whether they have LPG filling for bbqs maybe, but servos don't move that often (usually taken over by another one). In any case, it's probably not going to get out of date any worse than restaurant names/cuisines or a lot of other things. If the BP data has IDs for servos, just put that into OSM too, and match it up if/when they release updated data. Also, if you're doing a bulk import, how do you avoid double tagging existing servos? I'd suggest doing something like import if there is not an existing amenity=fuel within X distance, flag it for manual checking if there is. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
2009/12/9 James Livingston doc...@mac.com: I'd suggest doing something like import if there is not an existing amenity=fuel within X distance, flag it for manual checking if there is. The only problem with that is where you get 2 or 3 service stations close/next to each other. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
On 09/12/2009, at 8:41 PM, Steve Bennett wrote: On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 9:37 PM, James Livingston doc...@mac.com wrote: I'd suggest doing something like import if there is not an existing amenity=fuel within X distance, flag it for manual checking if there is. Ah, didn't know that kind of thing was possible, cool. It's probably not in any of the editor, like JOSM, but if someone was going to write a small script that converts the data it wouldn't be hard to make it check a planet extract (or the main db) as well. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 20:14:32 +1100 Sam Couter s...@couter.id.au wrote: Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote: Make sure if you are going to enter fuel information then you include all types, (lpg, 91, 95, 98 octane, diesel, etc) More: Automotive LPG is different tax-wise from barbecue LPG and therefore sold and dispensed differently, sometimes you can refill your own LPG bottle and sometimes you can only buy a full one or swap an empty one for a full one. The lpg in the BP data is for automotive lpg. If Chris is going to do a bulk import then the inclusion of fuel:type tags would be very easy. -- Cheers Ross ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: The problem with E10 for most cars is it doesn't recognise the extra oxygen atom Australian electronic fuel injection systems have O2 sensors, this isn't a problem. The reduced energy of E10 compared to the same volume of petrol is a problem, is basic physics, and can't be changed. and making food production more expensive and so the world goes on starving. People don't starve for a worldwide lack of food, they starve because the excess of food is in the wrong place, ie, not their belly. This is caused by world politics, corruption, local warlords, complete lack of central government in some places, etc, and the application of more food in places that already have enough won't fix any of that. Of course if they pumped the waste from coal fire power plants into green houses that have water tanks full of algea and then turn the algea into fuel you gat something like 40,000-80,000L of ethernol per acre, it gets rid of all the emissions in a safe manner and we don't need to import crude oil. But of course that would be too smart so we can't have that. Ethanol producers have pulled a fast one on the public and hooked government subsidies to create a very profitable and completely unsustainable industry. They won't let that go. Your solution still isn't carbon neutral either because you're burning coal, but that's a hell of a lot better than burning coal *and* oil. Our only feasible truly carbon neutral options are solar and nuclear. Solar's expensive and nuclear scares the NIMBYs even though it releases less radioactive waste than burning coal. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: As if the govt doesn't get enough tax already, and they get tax on top of tax when the GST kicks in. The government gets *less* money from E10. Fuel excise is reduced and its production is subsidised. Anyway, this is getting off topic, Yes, but a near-incoherant rant is good fun sometimes. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Implications of license change on use of Australian data sources (e.g. nearmap)
I'm sure Alex is reading the list, but I am too :) If there are concerns with our license, we'll work to address them - a key goal of ours is to support OSM and that was a firm requirement when the license was drafted. Cheers Ben 2009/12/9 James Livingston doc...@mac.com On 09/12/2009, at 6:38 PM, Roy Wallace wrote: If you derive information from observing our PhotoMaps, and include that information in a work, you will own that work, and may distribute it to others under a Creative Commons licence. Does that not imply that the derived information may only be distributed to others under a Creative Commons licence? Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly? As mentioned by others, the obvious thing to do is ask the NearMap guys (I've explicitly CC'd Alex, in case he isn't reading the list) what they meant - that's more important than what they actually wrote, since we'd obviously want to be nice to them. But just going off what is written there, if the person tracing owns it (in the copyright holder sense), then they can license it however they want. In that case, a CC license is just an option (and it says may not may only or must). With respect to ODbL, I think import CC-BY data into an ODbL database is fine - we'd fulfil the attribution requirement (CC-BY-SA wouldn't be, on the other hand). The problem if OSM goes ahead with the re-license would be the contributor terms, that means you can't import CC-BY data without the copyright holders approval. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Ben Last Development Manager (HyperWeb) NearMap Pty Ltd ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
Ok, getting back on topic, I spent a little time this morning generating an OSM file that can be opened in JOSM. For those curious/interested: http://map-data.bigtincan.com/data/BPtest.osm.bz2 I haven't included all fields, I left out the following: [16] = Trailers [17] = LPGBottle [19] = CarWash [20] = CleanGo [21] = SuperWash [22] = Other [25] = GIFT_CARD [23] = Pay [24] = EFTPOS [26] = ATM ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
[26] = ATM You could add a separate (or same?) amenity=atm (or whatever it is) point? Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Implications of license change on use of Australian data sources (e.g. nearmap)
I've just got a response from our legal team and this is what they say. We are always keen to clear up any uncertainties regarding derived works. Our requirement is that derived works are availlable to others, using a Creative Commons style license. In other words, we share the same approach as OSM. We know that OSM is looking to move to another open type license, and the intention is to support whatever license that OSM might use in the future (so long as that license is an open license, of course). Our legal people are aware that we might need to change the wording to make this clearer. In the mean time, you can take it as a given that derived works can be created under a Creative Commons OR similar license. I hope that clears it up for you guys and feel free to get in contact with me if you have any other queries. On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 6:32 PM, James Livingston doc...@mac.com wrote: On 09/12/2009, at 6:38 PM, Roy Wallace wrote: If you derive information from observing our PhotoMaps, and include that information in a work, you will own that work, and may distribute it to others under a Creative Commons licence. Does that not imply that the derived information may only be distributed to others under a Creative Commons licence? Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly? As mentioned by others, the obvious thing to do is ask the NearMap guys (I've explicitly CC'd Alex, in case he isn't reading the list) what they meant - that's more important than what they actually wrote, since we'd obviously want to be nice to them. But just going off what is written there, if the person tracing owns it (in the copyright holder sense), then they can license it however they want. In that case, a CC license is just an option (and it says may not may only or must). With respect to ODbL, I think import CC-BY data into an ODbL database is fine - we'd fulfil the attribution requirement (CC-BY-SA wouldn't be, on the other hand). The problem if OSM goes ahead with the re-license would be the contributor terms, that means you can't import CC-BY data without the copyright holders approval. -- Regards Alex Kwiatkowski Email: alex.kwiatkow...@nearmap.com Mobile: 0421 794 183 ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
2009/12/10 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: [26] = ATM You could add a separate (or same?) amenity=atm (or whatever it is) point? I added tag k='amenity:atm' v='no' / tag k='amenity:eftpos' v='yes' / tag k='rent:trailers' v='no' / tag k='rent:lpg_bottles' v='no' / tag k='amenity:carwash' v='no' / tag k='amenity:cleango' v='no' / tag k='amenity:superwash' v='no' / Also if people have better suggestions for tag names I'm happy to update the file, just the best ones I could think of at the time. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
Also I think some of the co-ords are way off, there is 2 BP locations in Carnarvon for example and when you zoom in on them there doesn't look to be a service station anywhere within the vicinity. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 1:39 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: The 2 BP's along the Bruce Highway north of Brisbane aren't located properly either, it looks like they've simply used address to geo lookups and when the addresses are specific they co-ords go wonky, wonder if they want more accurate co-ords... Dear BP, We gather that you have misplaced several of your service stations. We are pleased to inform you that we have located them at the following locations: ... We trust this puts your mind at ease. Love, OpenStreetMap ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
