Re: [talk-au] Where did the town go?
On 01/12/11 19:15, Andrew Harvey wrote: Deleted by user: cc_cleaner in changeset http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/9915617 I found this by looking at this area in the owl viewer: http://matt.dev.openstreetmap.org/owl_viewer/map Thanks Andrew. I wasn't aware of that facility. It gives me somewhere to start. John H ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Where did the town go?
On 01/12/2011, at 6:15 PM, Andrew Harvey wrote: On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 4:58 PM, John Henderson snow...@gmx.com wrote: Lake Cargelligo township shows mapped streets at this zoom level: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.3081lon=146.3792zoom=12layers=M but disappears as you zoom in from there. The detail is also missing in JOSM. I presume it used to be there. What is going on? Deleted by user: cc_cleaner in changeset http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/9915617 User cc-cleaner? I've had a quick look at some of the changesets, and they all seem to be just deleting things. I have a suspicion that the things being deleted are by users who haven't agreed to the new license, but I didn't think we were up to this stage yet. Should we get all of these changesets undone? I've also just noticed that most of Cobar has gone. I did some edits on the way through in May, some of these have been left alone, but some have disappeared completely or been replaced by highway=road. As one example, here is Louth Road: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/119756523 This is just a stub, this used to link on to the other roads. No idea why this has been done, as I *have* agreed to the new license, so my edits don't need to be done again. (This was done by Firefishy, who doesn't even live in Australia - I've just sent him a message to enquire about this particular way.) Mark P. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Where did the town go?
On 01/12/11 22:34, Mark Pulley wrote: User cc-cleaner? I've had a quick look at some of the changesets, and they all seem to be just deleting things. I have a suspicion that the things being deleted are by users who haven't agreed to the new license, but I didn't think we were up to this stage yet. Should we get all of these changesets undone? I've also just noticed that most of Cobar has gone. I did some edits on the way through in May, some of these have been left alone, but some have disappeared completely or been replaced by highway=road. As one example, here is Louth Road: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/119756523 This is just a stub, this used to link on to the other roads. No idea why this has been done, as I *have* agreed to the new license, so my edits don't need to be done again. (This was done by Firefishy, who doesn't even live in Australia - I've just sent him a message to enquire about this particular way.) I saw the same relationship with Firefishy (from South Africa) and went to bed puzzling about the coincidence. Firefishy was adding in a little data within minutes of cc-cleaner's massive deletes. I woke up a couple of minutes ago realizing that this pair of users must be the licence-change grim reaper at work. John ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Where did the town go?
On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 8:48 AM, John Henderson snow...@gmx.com wrote: I saw the same relationship with Firefishy (from South Africa) and went to bed puzzling about the coincidence. Firefishy was adding in a little data within minutes of cc-cleaner's massive deletes. I woke up a couple of minutes ago realizing that this pair of users must be the licence-change grim reaper at work. I would be surprised if the two accounts were related. cc_cleaner appears to be deleting objects created by ct-decliners. Other accounts are doing the same around the globe, but remap the tainted data from good sources like so. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/387772100/history ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Where did the town go?
On 1 December 2011 13:48, John Henderson snow...@gmx.com wrote: On 01/12/11 22:34, Mark Pulley wrote: User cc-cleaner? I've had a quick look at some of the changesets, and they all seem to be just deleting things. I have a suspicion that the things being deleted are by users who haven't agreed to the new license, but I didn't think we were up to this stage yet. Should we get all of these changesets undone? I've also just noticed that most of Cobar has gone. I did some edits on the way through in May, some of these have been left alone, but some have disappeared completely or been replaced by highway=road. As one example, here is Louth Road: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/119756523 This is just a stub, this used to link on to the other roads. No idea why this has been done, as I *have* agreed to the new license, so my edits don't need to be done again. (This was done by Firefishy, who doesn't even live in Australia - I've just sent him a message to enquire about this particular way.) I saw the same relationship with Firefishy (from South Africa) and went to bed puzzling about the coincidence. Firefishy was adding in a little data within minutes of cc-cleaner's massive deletes. I woke up a couple of minutes ago realizing that this pair of users must be the licence-change grim reaper at work. I have nothing to do with the cc_cleaner user's deletes/edits. I often watch OSM edits using http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/LiveMapViewer and noticed the deletes of mostly DrLizAU's contributions. I suspected DrLizAU was removing her own contributions, but cannot back this up. I decided to get stuck in and remap what I could easily remotely remap. PS: LiveMapViewer is awesome ;-) Regards Grant ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Where did the town go?
On 02/12/11 01:11, Grant Slater wrote: I have nothing to do with the cc_cleaner user's deletes/edits. I often watch OSM edits using http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/LiveMapViewer and noticed the deletes of mostly DrLizAU's contributions. I suspected DrLizAU was removing her own contributions, but cannot back this up. I decided to get stuck in and remap what I could easily remotely remap. PS: LiveMapViewer is awesome ;-) That explains it. Apologies for thinking you might have anything to do with the grim reaper. John ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Where did the town go?
On 02/12/11 01:11, Grant Slater wrote: I often watch OSM edits using http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/LiveMapViewer and noticed the deletes of mostly DrLizAU's contributions. I suspected DrLizAU was removing her own contributions, but cannot back this up. DrLizAU's ethical standards are very much higher than that in my experience. To me it appears that the completely comment-less, stealthy, anonymous deletions are more likely to be official OSM work. John ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] A way to go
I've been thinking for a while about the best way to remove CC-BY-SA-only data when the time comes. As already noted, some people have started already by deleting large areas of data and re-adding from bing (losing all the tags) - which at best may be unnecessary, and at present (as no date has been given yet for the removal of this data) is just rude. As I mentioned last night, I had added some tags to ways when I travelled through Cobar which have now been lost (e.g. corrections to maxspeeds). When the time comes, rather than just deleting all ways with even a hint of CC-BY-SA data, here's what I am thinking should happen - it will need a bot to do this. 1. NODES The bot will need to go through the version list for every single node. It should start with version one of the node (or if this is by a decliner, then the first version by an ODBL-acceptor), then for each subsequent version it should compare the new data with the previous version and overwrite it (this includes the position of the node as well as tags) - unless the owner of the version has not agreed to the new licence, in which case the information should be unchanged. At the end of this process we will have a collection of nodes with ODBL-only data. Some of these nodes will have only been edited by ODBL-decliners - these will have no information (no tags, no positions) and will be deleted. Other nodes who have been edited by decliners and acceptors will have as much information as possible preserved. (e.g. decliner adds nodes on a way, I subsequently move some nodes when adding new ways - the nodes I have moved will have their positions preserved, although they would lose any tags added by decliners.) 2. WAYS In the same way, the bot goes through the version list for each way, for each version making a note of which nodes are included and in what order, and any changes in tags by ODBL-acceptors. At the end of this process, any ways by ODBL-decliners will have no tags (and no nodes as these will have been deleted already in step 1). Ways partly edited by acceptors will have at least some nodes left intact, and some information. (It might need someone to go back later to re-add nodes to the ways, and re-add some tags, but at least some tags will be left behind.) 3. RELATIONS In the same way, the bot goes through the version list for each relation, for each version making a note of which ways are included, and any changes in tags by ODBL-acceptors. At the end of this process, any relations by ODBL-decliners will have no ways (and no ways as these will have been deleted already in step 1). Relations partly edited by acceptors will have at least some ways left intact, and some information. (It might need someone to go back later to re-add ways to the relations, and re-add some tags, but at least some tags will be left behind.) As an example, this is what would happen to my Cobar edits: Example 1: Decliner adds a way Decliner-bot adds maxspeed tag + source 'default maxspeed' I correct maxspeed (if needed) + 'source:maxspeed=voice (or sign or survey)' + possibly add tags The bot I have just described removes CC-BY-SA-only data If any nodes remain, at least my tags get left behind. Example 2: I add a way The bot I have just described removes CC-BY-SA-only data (there won't be any for this way) All my edits remain intact. I hope this all makes sense! This seems better then what has been happening so far. Has a date been set for the removal of CC-BY-SA-only data yet? Mark P. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] A way to go
On 02/12/11 09:00, Richard Weait wrote: Deleting tainted data and remapping by local mappers is far superior to waiting until March 31 and running a script. So removing data from decliners and remapping it, and reaching out to those who haven't yet responded is valid and valuable. Thanks for the clarification. I agree, but feared that something entirely different was happening. John ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] A way to go
On 2 December 2011 07:20, John Henderson snow...@gmx.com wrote: On 02/12/11 09:00, Richard Weait wrote: Deleting tainted data and remapping by local mappers is far superior to waiting until March 31 and running a script. So removing data from decliners and remapping it, and reaching out to those who haven't yet responded is valid and valuable. Unless the decliners change their mind, which is very likely to happen if government data can be used after all. I would like a copy of the map before these deletes are made for my GPS, has someone done this before these deletes were done ? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] A way to go and missing towns
On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 9:09 PM, El Segundo Can't win el_segundo_cant_...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Late to the conversation but.. First up, from people have said, what cc-cleaner is doing is shocking vandalism, whether they intend it or not. I'm disappointed by deletions without remapping. One way to defeat that is by remapping where we see it. In a worst case scenario, all non-CT compliant information will be expunged on 1st April. There is no need to delete it (especially manually) before this date. If it’s not being replaced there is absolutely no benefit in doing so. I expect that it will be before April. Second up, while (quality) re-mapping is the bees knees of replacing non-CT compliant data and I would consider it a preferred option, we’re never going to re-map it all by 1st April. We might re-map most, with any luck, but not all. There is a lot of remapping going on from the looks of it. Some of it is incidental, and just part of everyday mapping; old stuff goes away. Hence, we’re going to need some smart algorithms to deal with what’s left. Is there a working group on this or a mailing list? Perhaps Richard W would know? The community in general is working on tools. You'll see them in discussion on the dev list and #osm-dev irc. There are tools to detect object that need remapping, tools to see what was edited by decliners, and now even tools to evaluate edits for significance. As always in the OSM community, a small list of prolific developers do a lot of the work. Additional contributors are always welcome. In my opinion I think Mark P.’s suggestion is good and something similar to that would be what ends up happening That's worth discussing on legal-talk. The process and details need to work for all of OSM. I also think there is a need for stepped approach, combining algorithms with re-mapping. A first pass algorithm to clear the map of trivial edits would make re-mapping a lot easier. The bot-added maxspeed tags colour an awful lot of the map light red. There is also the question of whether bots have rights. Also for legal-talk. :-) There also needs to be a central clearing point – a mailing list or wiki – to either contribute locations that need re-mapping or to volunteer to re-map some. There are some great tools that re not quite out of beta yet and they will help. Talking about remapping specific places seems an ideal topic for a country list though. Anybody up for a trip to fix Cobar? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Maxspeed bots
On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Nick Hocking nick.hock...@gmail.com wrote: Richard, I don't believe that it is possible to start remapping in Australia until the maxspeed bots are removed (from the database and also all histories) without affecting any other edits to those ways. Or alternatively reassigning them to a ct_acceptor userid. (also for all histories) Then (and only then) can we know what needs to be remapped. Only OSMF has the access necessary to do this. Who do I need to ask to perform this task. Is it the DWG or the LWG or ... Hi Nick, I see several approaches available here: - ask the bot owner to accept - revert the bot work - ask for help reverting (typically others in the community or DWG) - argue convincingly on legal talk that the maxspeed bot and bots in general don't have rights to decline CT/ODbL ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Maxspeed bots
Richard wroteHi Nick, I see several approaches available here: - ask the bot owner to accept - revert the bot work - ask for help reverting (typically others in the community or DWG) - argue convincingly on legal talk that the maxspeed bot and bots in general don't have rights to decline CT/ODbL Hi Richard. the bot owner has publically that he/she will never accept the CT, and I believe him/her. Reverting the work: If the bot work was done at (say) version 3, reverting the changeset of the bot would destroy versions 4,5 etc information, which I don't believe is acceptable or necessary since it affects such a wide proportion of australian OSM data. The two bots workwere done using the users normal contribing userids and therefore must be dealt with at the changeset level rather the userid level. I therefore believe that it is essential that DWG remove the bot/s soon (no one else can do it!!). However if anyone can instruct me how to programatically revert the bots work without losing subsequent edits, then I'll happily get started on it. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Maxspeed bots
Hi. In general I think the maxspeed edits were very useful, in terms of how they help routing. I wouldn't want to lose them. AFAIK the edits were not made by a bot login though. The content of these edits is in the public domain (I.e. the default residential speed limit in Australia) and these edits could be re-edited by an actual bot. Given that these edits are easy to identify, and the large number of ways, this might be a useful exercise. It would give us a clearer in terms of knowing which ways are really in need of re-mapping. - Ben. Ben Kelley On Dec 2, 2011 1:48 PM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Nick Hocking nick.hock...@gmail.com wrote: Richard, I don't believe that it is possible to start remapping in Australia until the maxspeed bots are removed (from the database and also all histories) without affecting any other edits to those ways. Or alternatively reassigning them to a ct_acceptor userid. (also for all histories) Then (and only then) can we know what needs to be remapped. Only OSMF has the access necessary to do this. Who do I need to ask to perform this task. Is it the DWG or the LWG or ... Hi Nick, I see several approaches available here: - ask the bot owner to accept - revert the bot work - ask for help reverting (typically others in the community or DWG) - argue convincingly on legal talk that the maxspeed bot and bots in general don't have rights to decline CT/ODbL ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Maxspeed bots
Ben wrote The content of these edits is in the public domain (I.e. the default residential speed limit in Australia) and these edits could be re-edited by an actual bot. Given that these edits are easy to identify, and the large number of ways, this might be a useful exercise. It would give us a clearer in terms of knowing which ways are really in need of re-mapping. Hi Ben, I agree completely. However we can't just re-edit the bots work since it would still leave a ct_decliner userid in the history chain. Therefore I think that DWG (only they have the access), should just alter the changesets of the bots and any histories kept to other new userids that are marked as anonymoue ct acceptors. Then we can see what needs remapping and if further down the track we need to remove the bots work, well it can still be doneat that time. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Thoughts on co-ordinating re-mapping
It would be my guess that Australia has the highest non-CT compliant data to active mapper ratio in the world, even if we ignore the ABS2006 import. I also reckon it's likely that there's a lot of people in other countries that would be willing to help out. I would also guess that most Australian mappers could easily find way more stuff to re-map than they could ever get around to. There are two types of re-mapping - on the ground re-mapping, and desktop re-mapping. On the ground re-mapping would sensibly be co-ordinated on the talk list, but to get a wider audience I think there needs to be another mechanism. I think probably a forum (which could be advertised via diary entries). People could ask for help on the forum like The township of Outer Barcoo was traced by a CT rejector and needs re-mapping. There are a number of street names and maxspeed details that were added by user XYZ who accepted the conditions. These details can be safely added to newly traced roads. If you find other users edits please check their licence status before copying across. Then someone could respond claiming it, and then again when the work is done. Does anybody else think this is a reasonable idea? Does it scare anyone? It shouldn't be hard to implement. There is already a (poorly used) forum http://forum.openstreetmap.org/ all it would need is a new top level category and a bit of promotion.___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Thoughts on co-ordinating re-mapping
There are already systems written specifically for OSM to do this http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Tasking_Manager https://github.com/tlpinney/osmtask/ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
