Re: [talk-au] Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

2017-04-18 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
& again...

Lists of rest areas Oz wide:
http://www.thegreynomads.com.au/planning/where-to-camp/rest-areas/

Thanks

Graeme


On 19 April 2017 at 13:19, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:

> Hi
>
> In Qld at least, overnight camping is not permitted in a lot of rest areas
> as they are intended for heavy vehicles, & where private vehicles are
> allowed to stop overnight, the maximum stay is 20 hours, so there's no one
> size fit's all answer.
>
> They do provide details of where all the rest areas are & what is allowed,
> along with maps: https://publications.qld.gov.au/dataset/guide-to-
> queensland-roads
>
> We *may* even be able to use them under CC-BY-3.0 AU?
> https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/au/
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
> On 19 April 2017 at 11:57, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 19-Apr-17 11:10 AM, David Bannon wrote:
>>
>> Warin, I am not sure I agree.
>>
>> There are a number of what are officially Rest Areas that are set up,
>> used and officially blessed as camp sites. Now the term "Camp Site" might
>> mean different things to different people. To people with a caravan or
>> motor home, and there are a lot of them, a camp site is somewhere to camp
>> with their caravan or motor home.
>>
>>
>> These should be tagged as both a rest area and a 'caravan site'.
>> I have used 'rest areas' for camping .. even where I was not certain of
>> the official over night use, when the need arises.
>> Usually I try to pick my overnight spots .. sometimes things change and I
>> have to take what I can get.
>>
>>
>> I'm sorry (for you) that so many of them are not suitable for a tent but
>> the truth is there is a big demand from caravan (camper, motor home etc)
>> users and an inability to distinguish between sites that make good camp
>> sites and ones that don't would be a problem.
>>
>>
>> Err OSM does distinguish between camp/tent site and caravan site .. even
>> the usually render has different symbols for them.
>> tourism=camp_site
>> tourism= caravan_site
>>
>> Most if not all Australian sites cater for both.  Free sites may only
>> cater for one type though.
>> Where a site is unsuitable for tents .. then it should clearly be tagged
>> as a caravan site. And vice versa.
>>
>>
>> IMHO, we are talking about "camp sites" as somewhere you camp, if it is
>> unsuitable for a tent in your opinion, then a tag saying just that may be
>> appropriate. Importantly, you would be allowed erect a tent, even if you
>> would be uncomfortable doing so.
>>
>>
>> Some 'rest areas' do not officially allow over night stays. Some have no
>> area suitable for driving in tent pegs.
>>
>>
>> Worth noting that the division between a tent and a caravan is possibly
>> vague, while the majority of campers on the road (excluding xmas and easter
>> time) are in recognizably caravans, there are various "campers" that
>> involve canvas, some where that canvas hits the ground, at what point does
>> that become a tent ?
>>
>>
>> Caravans like a 'hard standing'.
>> Tent people like soft ground .. easier to drive in tent pegs as well as a
>> softer surface.
>> An area that gets used by caravans gets the soil compressed to such a
>> degree that it becomes very difficult to drive in tent pegs .. sometimes I
>> feel I should be carrying a drill to make a hole first. :)
>>
>> I have re-tagged this one ..
>> Node: Sutton Park Rest Area (1811197082)
>> as there should be no overnight here ...
>> https://www.caravancaravan.com.au/entity/sutton-park-rest-area/nsw
>>
>> It does look suitable for both tents and caravans. But officially no. See
>> how that goes?
>>
>> I do think these things probably predate the rest area tagging and
>> probably the caravan tagging too.
>> Changing them to rest area tagging is, I think, more appropriate as that
>> is what they are officially.
>> Some have water, toilets .. those can be additional tags as can the
>> caravan/camping information.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 19/04/17 08:54, Warin wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> I have seen a few roadside 'rest areas' tagged in OSM as camp sites.
>>
>> At least some of these are not suitable for pitching a tent .. so they
>> are not camp sites.
>>
>> At best they could be used by a caravan/RV ... but not a tent user (I am
>> a tent user).
>>
>> If the intention was to indicate there use by caravan/RV then they should
>> be tagged as 'tourism=caravan_site'.
>>
>>
>> There now exists a tag 'highway=rest_area'.
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area
>>
>>
>> I think the tag 'highway=rest_area' should replace those 'rest areas' now
>> tagged as 'camp sites', this would be closer to the truth.
>>
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>>
>>
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Re: [talk-au] Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

2017-04-18 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
Hi

In Qld at least, overnight camping is not permitted in a lot of rest areas
as they are intended for heavy vehicles, & where private vehicles are
allowed to stop overnight, the maximum stay is 20 hours, so there's no one
size fit's all answer.

They do provide details of where all the rest areas are & what is allowed,
along with maps:
https://publications.qld.gov.au/dataset/guide-to-queensland-roads

We *may* even be able to use them under CC-BY-3.0 AU?
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/au/

Thanks

Graeme


On 19 April 2017 at 11:57, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 19-Apr-17 11:10 AM, David Bannon wrote:
>
> Warin, I am not sure I agree.
>
> There are a number of what are officially Rest Areas that are set up, used
> and officially blessed as camp sites. Now the term "Camp Site" might mean
> different things to different people. To people with a caravan or motor
> home, and there are a lot of them, a camp site is somewhere to camp with
> their caravan or motor home.
>
>
> These should be tagged as both a rest area and a 'caravan site'.
> I have used 'rest areas' for camping .. even where I was not certain of
> the official over night use, when the need arises.
> Usually I try to pick my overnight spots .. sometimes things change and I
> have to take what I can get.
>
>
> I'm sorry (for you) that so many of them are not suitable for a tent but
> the truth is there is a big demand from caravan (camper, motor home etc)
> users and an inability to distinguish between sites that make good camp
> sites and ones that don't would be a problem.
>
>
> Err OSM does distinguish between camp/tent site and caravan site .. even
> the usually render has different symbols for them.
> tourism=camp_site
> tourism= caravan_site
>
> Most if not all Australian sites cater for both.  Free sites may only
> cater for one type though.
> Where a site is unsuitable for tents .. then it should clearly be tagged
> as a caravan site. And vice versa.
>
>
> IMHO, we are talking about "camp sites" as somewhere you camp, if it is
> unsuitable for a tent in your opinion, then a tag saying just that may be
> appropriate. Importantly, you would be allowed erect a tent, even if you
> would be uncomfortable doing so.
>
>
> Some 'rest areas' do not officially allow over night stays. Some have no
> area suitable for driving in tent pegs.
>
>
> Worth noting that the division between a tent and a caravan is possibly
> vague, while the majority of campers on the road (excluding xmas and easter
> time) are in recognizably caravans, there are various "campers" that
> involve canvas, some where that canvas hits the ground, at what point does
> that become a tent ?
>
>
> Caravans like a 'hard standing'.
> Tent people like soft ground .. easier to drive in tent pegs as well as a
> softer surface.
> An area that gets used by caravans gets the soil compressed to such a
> degree that it becomes very difficult to drive in tent pegs .. sometimes I
> feel I should be carrying a drill to make a hole first. :)
>
> I have re-tagged this one ..
> Node: Sutton Park Rest Area (1811197082)
> as there should be no overnight here ...
> https://www.caravancaravan.com.au/entity/sutton-park-rest-area/nsw
>
> It does look suitable for both tents and caravans. But officially no. See
> how that goes?
>
> I do think these things probably predate the rest area tagging and
> probably the caravan tagging too.
> Changing them to rest area tagging is, I think, more appropriate as that
> is what they are officially.
> Some have water, toilets .. those can be additional tags as can the
> caravan/camping information.
>
>
>
> On 19/04/17 08:54, Warin wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>
> I have seen a few roadside 'rest areas' tagged in OSM as camp sites.
>
> At least some of these are not suitable for pitching a tent .. so they are
> not camp sites.
>
> At best they could be used by a caravan/RV ... but not a tent user (I am a
> tent user).
>
> If the intention was to indicate there use by caravan/RV then they should
> be tagged as 'tourism=caravan_site'.
>
>
> There now exists a tag 'highway=rest_area'. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/
> wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area
>
>
> I think the tag 'highway=rest_area' should replace those 'rest areas' now
> tagged as 'camp sites', this would be closer to the truth.
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> ___
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> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

2017-04-18 Thread David Bannon 

Warin, I am not sure I agree.

There are a number of what are officially Rest Areas that are set up, 
used and officially blessed as camp sites. Now the term "Camp Site" 
might mean different things to different people. To people with a 
caravan or motor home, and there are a lot of them, a camp site is 
somewhere to camp with their caravan or motor home.


I'm sorry (for you) that so many of them are not suitable for a tent but 
the truth is there is a big demand from caravan (camper, motor home etc) 
users and an inability to distinguish between sites that make good camp 
sites and ones that don't would be a problem.


IMHO, we are talking about "camp sites" as somewhere you camp, if it is 
unsuitable for a tent in your opinion, then a tag saying just that may 
be appropriate. Importantly, you would be allowed erect a tent, even if 
you would be uncomfortable doing so.


Worth noting that the division between a tent and a caravan is possibly 
vague, while the majority of campers on the road (excluding xmas and 
easter time) are in recognizably caravans, there are various "campers" 
that involve canvas, some where that canvas hits the ground, at what 
point does that become a tent ?


David


On 19/04/17 08:54, Warin wrote:

Hi,


I have seen a few roadside 'rest areas' tagged in OSM as camp sites.

At least some of these are not suitable for pitching a tent .. so they 
are not camp sites.


At best they could be used by a caravan/RV ... but not a tent user (I 
am a tent user).


If the intention was to indicate there use by caravan/RV then they 
should be tagged as 'tourism=caravan_site'.



There now exists a tag 'highway=rest_area'. 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area



I think the tag 'highway=rest_area' should replace those 'rest areas' 
now tagged as 'camp sites', this would be closer to the truth.



Thoughts?


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Re: [talk-au] Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

2017-04-18 Thread Mark Pulley 
I've changed a few of these 'camp sites' to 'rest areas' when I've  
come across them. Many of them were added prior to the existence of  
the rest area tag. I've got no issues with these being re-tagged.


Quoting Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

I think the tag 'highway=rest_area' should replace those 'rest areas'
now tagged as 'camp sites', this would be closer to the truth.


Mark P.



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Re: [talk-au] Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

2017-04-18 Thread Ben Kelley 

That sounds sensible.

In general I don't think a rest area should be tagged as a camp site.


 - Ben Kelley.


On 19/04/2017 08:54, Warin wrote:

Hi,


I have seen a few roadside 'rest areas' tagged in OSM as camp sites.

At least some of these are not suitable for pitching a tent .. so they 
are not camp sites.


At best they could be used by a caravan/RV ... but not a tent user (I 
am a tent user).


If the intention was to indicate there use by caravan/RV then they 
should be tagged as 'tourism=caravan_site'.



There now exists a tag 'highway=rest_area'. 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area



I think the tag 'highway=rest_area' should replace those 'rest areas' 
now tagged as 'camp sites', this would be closer to the truth.



Thoughts?



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[talk-au] Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

2017-04-18 Thread Warin 

Hi,


I have seen a few roadside 'rest areas' tagged in OSM as camp sites.

At least some of these are not suitable for pitching a tent .. so they 
are not camp sites.


At best they could be used by a caravan/RV ... but not a tent user (I am 
a tent user).


If the intention was to indicate there use by caravan/RV then they 
should be tagged as 'tourism=caravan_site'.



There now exists a tag 'highway=rest_area'. 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area



I think the tag 'highway=rest_area' should replace those 'rest areas' 
now tagged as 'camp sites', this would be closer to the truth.



Thoughts?


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