Re: [talk-au] Bush Fire Neighbourhood Safer Places

[David Wales]

According to the NSW RFS:

"Neighbourhood Safer Places are a place of last resort during a bush fire 
emergency.

They are to be used when all other options in your bush fire survival plan 
can't be put into action safely."

https://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/plan-and-prepare/neighbourhood-safer-places

On 4 January 2020 6:11:15 pm AEDT, Graeme Fitzpatrick  
wrote:
>On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 at 12:21, adam steer  wrote:
>
>>
>> In Vic these are only used as a last resort. Not sure if 'assembly
>point'
>> translates to 'only come here if there are absolutely no other
>options, and
>> this place might not be safe anyway'.
>>
>>
>> It seems that 'neighbourhood safer places' means something different
>> across borders. Can anyone in emergency services comment?
>>
>
>The Qld version is similar
>https://www.ruralfire.qld.gov.au/BushFire_Safety/Neighbourhood-Safer-Places/Pages/default.aspx
>
>"An NSP is a local open space or building where people may gather, as a
>last resort, to seek shelter from a bushfire."
>
>  Thanks
>
>Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] Bush Fire Neighbourhood Safer Places

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 at 12:21, adam steer  wrote:

>
> In Vic these are only used as a last resort. Not sure if 'assembly point'
> translates to 'only come here if there are absolutely no other options, and
> this place might not be safe anyway'.
>
>
> It seems that 'neighbourhood safer places' means something different
> across borders. Can anyone in emergency services comment?
>

The Qld version is similar
https://www.ruralfire.qld.gov.au/BushFire_Safety/Neighbourhood-Safer-Places/Pages/default.aspx

"An NSP is a local open space or building where people may gather, as a
last resort, to seek shelter from a bushfire."

  Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] Fire Station Operators

[Andrew Harvey]

On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 at 14:14, Sebastian Spiess  wrote:

> Andrew,
> I've done one. Just clarifying regarding the branch.
>
> branch  =   Narrabeen Fire Station
> name   =  Fire and Rescue NSW Station 068 Narrabeen
>

I can't see clearly from Mapillary what the singe looks like, but branch
should be just "Narrabeen", without the "Fire Station" words. Then you
could still have name=Narrabeen Fire Station.


> Is this how you suggested? Before the branch tag was the name.
>
> I've also added
> building =fire_station
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/79179815
>
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Re: [talk-au] Fire Station Operators

[Sebastian Spiess]

Andrew,
I've done one. Just clarifying regarding the branch.

branch  =   Narrabeen Fire Station
name   =  Fire and Rescue NSW Station 068 Narrabeen

Is this how you suggested? Before the branch tag was the name.

I've also added
building =    fire_station

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/79179815

On 4/1/20 9:06 am, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> I've updated the Australian Tagging Guidelines with NSW fire station
> operators 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Fire_Stations.
>
>
> I'm proposing:
>
> for NSW Rural Fire Service stations to use 
> operator=NSW Rural Fire Service
> operator:wikdata=Q7011777
>
> for Fire and Rescue NSW stations to use
> operator=Fire and Rescue NSW
> operator:wikidata=Q5451532
>
> Does that sound okay?
>
> I'm also suggesting to use the "branch=" tag to use the short name of
> the fire station branch, which is usually the suburb name and is
> printed on the fire trucks, since the regular name= tag could contain
> a longer signposted name.
>
> For other states, if this tagging is okay, please help fill in the
> operator and operator:wikidata tags on the wiki page for your states.
>
> I've created a MapRoulette challenge for NSW to fill in these tags
> either as implied from the name, local knowledge or from street lever
> imagery https://maproulette.org/challenge/11820
>
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Re: [talk-au] Fire Station Operators

[Sebastian Spiess]

Sounds good to me.

On 4/1/20 9:06 am, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> I've updated the Australian Tagging Guidelines with NSW fire station
> operators 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Fire_Stations.
>
>
> I'm proposing:
>
> for NSW Rural Fire Service stations to use 
> operator=NSW Rural Fire Service
> operator:wikdata=Q7011777
>
> for Fire and Rescue NSW stations to use
> operator=Fire and Rescue NSW
> operator:wikidata=Q5451532
>
> Does that sound okay?
>
> I'm also suggesting to use the "branch=" tag to use the short name of
> the fire station branch, which is usually the suburb name and is
> printed on the fire trucks, since the regular name= tag could contain
> a longer signposted name.
>
> For other states, if this tagging is okay, please help fill in the
> operator and operator:wikidata tags on the wiki page for your states.
>
> I've created a MapRoulette challenge for NSW to fill in these tags
> either as implied from the name, local knowledge or from street lever
> imagery https://maproulette.org/challenge/11820
>
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Re: [talk-au] Jervis Bay Territory admin boundary

[Warin]

On 04/01/20 10:57, cleary wrote:

The Jervis Bay Territory/NSW boundary is shown such that Jervis Bay Territory 
overlaps into parts of Shoalhaven Council area and NSW suburbs.  Obviously not 
correct. There seems to be no source provided for the location of the boundary, 
although much of it appears to be attached to the coastline (also source not 
apparent).

There have been a lot of edits to this area and maybe someone more familiar 
with the location wants to repair the map in this area. If not, I propose to 
try to fix it, primarily using the NSW_LPI_BaseMap as the source for the 
boundary.

If no one else wants to do it, I'll work in on it in a few days.



All yours. :)
 



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Re: [talk-au] Bush Fire Neighbourhood Safer Places

[Warin]

On 04/01/20 13:18, adam steer wrote:

Hi Andrew

In Vic these are only used as a last resort. Not sure if 'assembly 
point' translates to 'only come here if there are absolutely no other 
options, and this place might not be safe anyway'.


See: https://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/plan-prepare/neighbourhood-safer-places

There are also community fire refuges: 
https://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/plan-prepare/community-fire-refuges/


...my reading there is also 'try really hard not to come here, but if 
there's nothing else then turn up'.


I think generally they want people well away from the fire area, rather 
than close by. Hence the words used.




Could we add a 'place of last resort' tag?


Why? I think the description will tell the story.


Relief centres, eg: 
https://www.eastgippsland.vic.gov.au/Council/News_and_Media_Releases/Emergency_Relief_Centres

https://www.wangaratta.vic.gov.au/emergency/relief-and-recovery

...seem to be council operated...
I think those are places to go for food, clothing not for shelter from 
the fire. So not the same thing.


It seems that 'neighbourhood safer places' means something different 
across borders. Can anyone in emergency services comment?


Thanks,

Adam






On Sat, 4 Jan 2020, 11:30 am Andrew Harvey, > wrote:


I'm not sure what these are called or look like in other states,
but in NSW they look like
https://www.flickr.com/photos/136319147@N08/49324333543/ and they
are operated by the NSW RFS.

emergency=assembly_point seems like the best tag to use per the
wiki
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dassembly_point "A
designated (safe) place where people can gather or must report to
during an emergency or a fire drill Edit or translate this
description."

Also documented on the wiki is
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:assembly_point:fire which
seems fitting.

I'm proposing these be tagged as

emergency=assembly_point
assembly_point:fire=designated
operator=NSW Rural Fire Service
operator:wikidata=Q7011777

could also add description="Bush Fire Neighbourhood Safer Place"
or your state's equivalent.

Any comments? If this sounds good, I'll document this on the
Australian Tagging Guidelines for NSW.
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Re: [talk-au] Bush Fire Neighbourhood Safer Places

[adam steer]

Hi Andrew

In Vic these are only used as a last resort. Not sure if 'assembly point'
translates to 'only come here if there are absolutely no other options, and
this place might not be safe anyway'.

See: https://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/plan-prepare/neighbourhood-safer-places

There are also community fire refuges:
https://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/plan-prepare/community-fire-refuges/

...my reading there is also 'try really hard not to come here, but if
there's nothing else then turn up'.

Could we add a 'place of last resort' tag?

Relief centres, eg:
https://www.eastgippsland.vic.gov.au/Council/News_and_Media_Releases/Emergency_Relief_Centres
https://www.wangaratta.vic.gov.au/emergency/relief-and-recovery

...seem to be council operated...

It seems that 'neighbourhood safer places' means something different across
borders. Can anyone in emergency services comment?

Thanks,

Adam






On Sat, 4 Jan 2020, 11:30 am Andrew Harvey, 
wrote:

> I'm not sure what these are called or look like in other states, but in
> NSW they look like
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/136319147@N08/49324333543/ and they are
> operated by the NSW RFS.
>
> emergency=assembly_point seems like the best tag to use per the wiki
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dassembly_point "A
> designated (safe) place where people can gather or must report to during an
> emergency or a fire drill Edit or translate this description."
>
> Also documented on the wiki is
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:assembly_point:fire which seems
> fitting.
>
> I'm proposing these be tagged as
>
> emergency=assembly_point
> assembly_point:fire=designated
> operator=NSW Rural Fire Service
> operator:wikidata=Q7011777
>
> could also add description="Bush Fire Neighbourhood Safer Place" or your
> state's equivalent.
>
> Any comments? If this sounds good, I'll document this on the Australian
> Tagging Guidelines for NSW.
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[talk-au] Bush Fire Neighbourhood Safer Places

[Andrew Harvey]

I'm not sure what these are called or look like in other states, but in NSW
they look like https://www.flickr.com/photos/136319147@N08/49324333543/ and
they are operated by the NSW RFS.

emergency=assembly_point seems like the best tag to use per the wiki
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dassembly_point "A
designated (safe) place where people can gather or must report to during an
emergency or a fire drill Edit or translate this description."

Also documented on the wiki is
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:assembly_point:fire which seems
fitting.

I'm proposing these be tagged as

emergency=assembly_point
assembly_point:fire=designated
operator=NSW Rural Fire Service
operator:wikidata=Q7011777

could also add description="Bush Fire Neighbourhood Safer Place" or your
state's equivalent.

Any comments? If this sounds good, I'll document this on the Australian
Tagging Guidelines for NSW.
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[talk-au] Jervis Bay Territory admin boundary

[cleary]

The Jervis Bay Territory/NSW boundary is shown such that Jervis Bay Territory 
overlaps into parts of Shoalhaven Council area and NSW suburbs.  Obviously not 
correct. There seems to be no source provided for the location of the boundary, 
although much of it appears to be attached to the coastline (also source not 
apparent).

There have been a lot of edits to this area and maybe someone more familiar 
with the location wants to repair the map in this area. If not, I propose to 
try to fix it, primarily using the NSW_LPI_BaseMap as the source for the 
boundary.

If no one else wants to do it, I'll work in on it in a few days.

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Re: [talk-au] Fire Station Operators

[cleary]

Yes. This seems right.




On Fri, 3 Jan 2020, at 10:06 PM, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> I've updated the Australian Tagging Guidelines with NSW fire station 
> operators 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Fire_Stations.
> 
> I'm proposing:
> 
> for NSW Rural Fire Service stations to use 
> operator=NSW Rural Fire Service
> operator:wikdata=Q7011777
> 
> for Fire and Rescue NSW stations to use
> operator=Fire and Rescue NSW
> operator:wikidata=Q5451532
> 
> Does that sound okay?
> 
> I'm also suggesting to use the "branch=" tag to use the short name of 
> the fire station branch, which is usually the suburb name and is 
> printed on the fire trucks, since the regular name= tag could contain a 
> longer signposted name.
> 
> For other states, if this tagging is okay, please help fill in the 
> operator and operator:wikidata tags on the wiki page for your states.
> 
> I've created a MapRoulette challenge for NSW to fill in these tags 
> either as implied from the name, local knowledge or from street lever 
> imagery https://maproulette.org/challenge/11820
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>

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Re: [talk-au] parking and bike lane

[Andrew Harvey]

On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 at 19:42, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> For safety I think you will find all bicycle lanes end before any
> roundabout and restart after the roundabout.. helps stop cars exiting over
> cyclists, well it is supposed to...
>

The exception to that could be 3 road junction roundabouts in a T shape
where a bike lane could continue across the straight road.
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Re: [talk-au] Addresses/street numbers

[Andrew Harvey]

The GNAF license is pretty open, just not open enough for importing to
OpenStreetMap. I'd still recommend any services trying to do geocoding to
also use GNAF as fallback source if not found in OSM.

On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 at 11:04, Michael Shafer  wrote:

> Hey everyone,
>
> I noticed that street number information is quite sparse around where I
> live in Sydney, then saw it’s because the GNAF license is incompatible with
> OSM (as tracked by @aharvey here:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_data_catalogue).
>
> This is pretty unfortunate as it means address search and routing tools
> can only point you to the street, but not the individual property. (Noticed
> when trying to geocode my own address!)
>
> Does anyone know of other techniques for getting address information at
> scale? e.g. does Mapillary try to detect street numbers from street-level
> imagery?
>
> Interestingly Mapbox does have street numbers where I live, I wonder where
> they are getting that information.
>
> Thanks,
> Michael
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Re: [talk-au] presenting #NorthernBeachesSolar pet project

[Andrew Harvey]

Nice work, would love to see more roof top solar panels mapped.

The Tasking Manager https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tasking_Manager might
suit this better than MapRoulette, since Tasking Manager breaks an area up
into tiles and you go in, choose a tile, complete it, then upload. It helps
track progress, avoid conflicts and ensures a whole area is done without
gaps in coverage.

MapRoulette works differently, it's based on identifying features already
which need some work.

> start_date=* - set to the date of the LPI NSW Imagery - or should this be
rather source:date=*??

start_date is when the feature started, so when the solar panel was
installed, you can just do  if you only know the year or -MM if you
only know the month, but if you don't know you can omit it. source:date is
better for the imagery date.

On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 at 08:50, Sebastian S.  wrote:

> So far I have not worked out a good grid method.
> I go by suburb in my area and keep the file local until I've completed the
> suburb. Only then I upload.
> While offline I use a temporary area tagged as wood. I expand this box
> over the area I've worked through. This is just because I don't know any
> better solution. 
>
> If you want to see a map showing the modules you can use open
> infrastructure map, link is at the bottom of the wiki.
>
> I thought about making this a mapping challenge on
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/MapRoulette but so far I've not
> looked into it. I've got no experience with this but am happy to receive
> guidance.
>
>
> On 2 January 2020 7:11:07 am AEDT, Dion Moult  wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 11:29:13PM +1100, Sebastian Spiess wrote:
>>
>>> I'd like to present my latest pet project:
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:ConsEbt/NorthernBeachesSolar
>>> I wanted to share this and collect some feedback or comments.
>>>
>>
>> I love it! I might do a bit of solar mapping too! How easy is it to set a 
>> grid
>> to know which areas have been mapped?
>>
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Re: [talk-au] Did the Earth just move for you?

[Andrew Harvey]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 at 21:17, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The change is ~ 1.8 meters so most people are unlikely to know as
> general GPS accuracy is greater than the 1.8 metres.
>

Agreed.

We do have aerial imagery in NSW and ACT which are reportedly accurate
enough that the datum matters

The OSM platform isn't currently setup to support a dynamic datum, really
only once consumer GNSS get's more accurate will it start to matter. See
also https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/StephaneP/diary/390290
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[talk-au] Fire Station Operators

[Andrew Harvey]

I've updated the Australian Tagging Guidelines with NSW fire station
operators
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Fire_Stations
.

I'm proposing:

for NSW Rural Fire Service stations to use
operator=NSW Rural Fire Service
operator:wikdata=Q7011777

for Fire and Rescue NSW stations to use
operator=Fire and Rescue NSW
operator:wikidata=Q5451532

Does that sound okay?

I'm also suggesting to use the "branch=" tag to use the short name of the
fire station branch, which is usually the suburb name and is printed on the
fire trucks, since the regular name= tag could contain a longer signposted
name.

For other states, if this tagging is okay, please help fill in the operator
and operator:wikidata tags on the wiki page for your states.

I've created a MapRoulette challenge for NSW to fill in these tags either
as implied from the name, local knowledge or from street lever imagery
https://maproulette.org/challenge/11820
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Re: [talk-au] Did the Earth just move for you? RE WGS84

[Warin]

On 03/01/20 21:40, Dion Moult wrote:

My impression was that the 1.8m jump was to do with the GDA standard (and
therefore the MGA standards too).


It is not a jump, physically Australia is slowly moving NE all the time (in 
relation to the 'rest of the world').
Some time in the future we may bump into Indonesia, PNG + New Zealand, unless 
something changes.



These seem like Australian specific coordinate
systems that are being adjusted. I assumed that OSM stored its data in WGS84,
which to my understanding is separate to a new definition of a GDA standard.

However, my understanding on this topic is very poor, so if others can help
explain the implications this has on OSM, if any, I'd really appreciate it :)


WGS84 is world wide, so Australia is moving in relation to WGS84.

Typical GPS error is >> 1.8 metres so the change is not that significant.

Other places in the world are also moving, but us Ozies are the fastest movers.


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Re: [talk-au] Did the Earth just move for you? RE WGS84

[Dion Moult]

My impression was that the 1.8m jump was to do with the GDA standard (and
therefore the MGA standards too). These seem like Australian specific coordinate
systems that are being adjusted. I assumed that OSM stored its data in WGS84,
which to my understanding is separate to a new definition of a GDA standard.

However, my understanding on this topic is very poor, so if others can help
explain the implications this has on OSM, if any, I'd really appreciate it :)

On Fri, Jan 03, 2020 at 09:24:21PM +1100, Warin wrote:
> 
> On 03/01/20 18:43, Dion Moult wrote:
> > How does this get solved?
> >
> > Can someone help explain to me how this affects the map? My limited
> > understanding is that this is the change from gda94 to gda2020.
> > However, does osm store things in wgs84? And that hasn't changed, has it?
> 
> For WGS84 to Australian relevance read
> https://www.ga.gov.au/scientific-topics/positioning-navigation/wgs84
> 
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Dion Moult


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Re: [talk-au] Did the Earth just move for you? RE WGS84

[Warin]

On 03/01/20 18:43, Dion Moult wrote:

How does this get solved?

Can someone help explain to me how this affects the map? My limited 
understanding is that this is the change from gda94 to gda2020. 
However, does osm store things in wgs84? And that hasn't changed, has it?


For WGS84 to Australian relevance read
https://www.ga.gov.au/scientific-topics/positioning-navigation/wgs84

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Re: [talk-au] Did the Earth just move for you?

[Warin]

On 03/01/20 18:43, Dion Moult wrote:

How does this get solved?

Can someone help explain to me how this affects the map? My limited 
understanding is that this is the change from gda94 to gda2020. 
However, does osm store things in wgs84? And that hasn't changed, has it?


wgs84 does change. It started in 1984? .. but has been modified since 
then a number of times.


The change is ~ 1.8 meters so most people are unlikely to know as 
general GPS accuracy is greater than the 1.8 metres.


Another link 
https://www.theage.com.au/national/nsw-and-victoria-just-jumped-1-8-metres-north-20200102-p53ocx.html


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