Re: [talk-au] Shoulder and cycle usage

[Andrew Harvey]

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 at 22:51, Sebastian Spiess  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> your case 1 appears to me like a parking lane. With or without cycle lane
> this is a common occurrence in most suburbs. I've asked about parking lanes
> some time ago.
>

The parking lane is separate though, it's not shared with the cycle lane.
So it's existence doesn't change the fact there is a cycle lane here. So
you'd just also add the parking lane tags.

Some people have been adding the tag cycleway:lane=doorzone where the
cyclelane exists within the door zone of a parking lane.


>
> case 2 - what is the lane between the two continuous lines for?
>

It's just a buffer between the cyclist and vehicles.


> case 3 - this is where I ask me at what width does a shoulder start being
> a shoulder?
>

In real life the shoulder refers to anything outside of the solid painted
line but before the gutter, even if it's too narrow for a car I'd still
consider it a shoulder.

I think https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shoulder should still be
used if not wide enough for a car, and let shoulder:width indicate that.


> case 4 - have not notices that one.
>

I searched for at least 15 minutes before finding one!


>
> I give you case 5 - similar to case 3 but with markings to indicate
> bicycle use, on junctions there are even green cycle lanes.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-32.78641/151.92969
>

That looks like case 2 to me. It's a shoulder but it doubles as a cycle
lane.


>
> Case 5 was the reason I've raise the question. Following your cases I
> would tag it (shouder=yes, cycleway=lane) I do recall signs with bikes on
> them along the road, which I would interpret as official cycle way? However
> I noticed that there was no line marked on the outside of the road.
>
>
> I think that the shoulder tag is more important on higher level roads and
> rural roads. In urban areas, residential roads I would use the parking lane
> tags.
>

Sure there is a grey area in between, so I'd go with whichever best
describes it's primary use.
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Re: [talk-au] Shoulder and cycle usage

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hi,

your case 1 appears to me like a parking lane. With or without cycle
lane this is a common occurrence in most suburbs. I've asked about
parking lanes some time ago.

case 2 - what is the lane between the two continuous lines for?

case 3 - this is where I ask me at what width does a shoulder start
being a shoulder?

case 4 - have not notices that one.

I give you case 5 - similar to case 3 but with markings to indicate
bicycle use, on junctions there are even green cycle lanes.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-32.78641/151.92969

Case 5 was the reason I've raise the question. Following your cases I
would tag it (shouder=yes, cycleway=lane) I do recall signs with bikes
on them along the road, which I would interpret as official cycle way?
However I noticed that there was no line marked on the outside of the road.


I think that the shoulder tag is more important on higher level roads
and rural roads. In urban areas, residential roads I would use the
parking lane tags.


On 23/1/20 5:34 pm, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 14:19, Sebastian S.  > wrote:
>
> Hi, what is the view of tagging road shoulders and particularly
> when they have painted bicycle signs?
>
> Motorways would be another candidate.
>
>
> I've seen a few different scenarios.
>
> - a dedicate cycle lane (only used as a cyclelane, not an emergency
> shoulder) cycleway=lane + shoulder=no
> eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-33.81151/151.18789
> - a shoulder which doubles as a marked cycle lane (it's an emergency
> shoulder, but with markings to indicate bicycle use) (shouder=yes,
> cycleway=lane)
> eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-34.64938/150.84838
> - a shoulder which can be used by bicycles but has no bicycle markings
> or signage (shoulder=yes cycleway=no, bicycle=yes)
> eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-34.58996/150.60760
> - have both a cycle lane and a shoulder, though segregated by paint
> (cycleway=lane, shoulder=yes) - no way to distinguish this from case
> (2) eg. https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-33.43134/151.29444
>
> I admit though this can be subjective.
>
> So my rule of thumb is if there is a painted marking for bicycles and
> it's separated from other traffic from paint then use cycleway=lane,
> you can also then consider if this is a road shoulder too and add
> shoulder=yes if so.
>
> On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 at 14:30, Ian Sergeant  > wrote:
>
> Hi, 
>
> Shoulders should always be tagged appropriately.
>
> Shoulders legally in Australia can be used by all bicycles -
> whether or not they have a bicycle stencil (painted bicycle sign) 
> And a bicycle lane is legally indicated by a sign and not a
> stencil.  Legally the stencil has no meaning at all.
>
>
> My view is we should be tagging based on the effective feature on the
> ground, and not solely based on if it meets a specific legal
> classification. So while legally it might need to meet certain
> crieteria to be an official "cycle lane" so long as it's dedicated for
> use by bicycles and separated from other traffic, it's effectively a
> cycleway=lane in OSM.

I've also seen some shoulders that are quite rough and not great cycle
lanes.

>  
>
> My personal advice currently in Australia is to caution against
> indicating there is bicycle infrastructure where there is no
> amenity.   Since, this is a far greater problem in OSM than
> missing cycle routes and infrastructure, and takes far longer to
> correct and survey.  Google Maps has actually come from behind to
> lead OSM in this aspect now in Sydney in most areas.
>
Ian, could you clarify the problem? I understand you refer to amenity as
in signs and stencils for cycle routes?
>
> Are there any places in particular you think we are lacking? I've been
> working hard to add new recently built infrastructure and well as
> remove cycle tags from OSM where there is nothing left on the ground
> anymore.
>  
>
> That said, most motorways that have a wide shoulder, a cycle
> stencil, and permit cycling have a bicycle lane indicated.  I
> think this is probably appropriate.
>
> Ian.
>
> On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 14:19, Sebastian S.  > wrote:
>
> Hi, what is the view of tagging road shoulders and
> particularly when they have painted bicycle signs?
>
> Motorways would be another candidate.
>
> A wiki entry for shoulder exists but is very basic
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shoulder___
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