Re: [talk-au] Deletion of informal paths by NSW NPWS

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Now talking to NPWS.

One question for everybody.

Mark P was there in Nov 2023 & track was still there, with no "Track
closed, keep out" or similar signage.

Has anybody been there since then & can confirm or otherwise that this is
still the case?

Thanks

Graeme


On Wed, 21 Feb 2024 at 16:44, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Message resent regarding proposed Liaison Officer & also confirming track
> in question.
>
> Awaiting response.
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 at 17:16, Phil Wyatt  wrote:
>
>> I have also contacted Stephen privately to see if he wants to chat
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers - Phil
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Graeme Fitzpatrick 
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 20, 2024 5:54 PM
>> *To:* Andrew Welch 
>> *Cc:* Mark Pulley ; OpenStreetMap-AU Mailing List
>> 
>> *Subject:* Re: [talk-au] Deletion of informal paths by NSW NPWS
>>
>>
>>
>> NPWS have now contacted DWG again.
>>
>>
>>
>> I was in the process of responding to his comments, was up to ~10
>> paragraphs, then hit the wrong button in our DWG system & deleted the
>> lot!!! :-(
>>
>>
>>
>> That's well & truly enough for today so I'll try again (after trying to
>> remember what I said!) tomorrow.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Graeme
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 at 16:10, Andrew Welch via Talk-au <
>> talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>>
>> I think it might also be important to state that OSM is a database, so if
>> consumers aren’t rendering tracks properly if tagged as such, the issue is
>> with them not us, and that what they are doing can be considered as
>> vandalism by mappers. We have ways to reflect the current state, and ensure
>> that mappers unaware of these discussions won’t go ahead and re-add the
>> trails.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Andrew Welch
>>
>> m...@andrewwelch.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 at 3:45 pm, Mark Pulley 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I’ve just had another private message from Stephen Stenberg:
>>
>>
>>
>> I had replied privately:
>>
>>
>>
>> Prior to reversion, we had been discussing this for several months at the
>> talk-au mailing list. I had delayed the reversion as I was of the
>> understanding that someone from NPWS was about to join the discussion, but
>> that did not eventuate.
>>
>> For reasons discussed on some of the previous changesets, and on the
>> mailing list, there should be something present. I’ve added a comment to my
>> changeset regarding a couple of suitable changes, and have sent a note back
>> to the mailing list for further discussion.
>>
>>
>>
>> I had also added a comment to the most recent changeset.
>>
>>
>>
>> He has replied to me:
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope this message finds you well. Several months ago, you were informed
>> about the decision to exclude certain paths near Apsley Falls Campground
>> from OpenStreetMap. Despite clear communication from the NSW National Parks
>> and Wildlife Service (NPWS) stating that these tracks, at their request,
>> have been removed, it appears there is a persistent effort to reintroduce
>> them.
>>
>> It is important to emphasize that these paths are situated on NPWS land,
>> and as part of their management strategy, NPWS no longer wishes for these
>> paths to be displayed. Reinstating these pathways not only contradicts NPWS
>> wishes but also requires additional work hours from their end to rectify
>> the situation.
>>
>> It is crucial to understand that NPWS has already dedicated resources to
>> remove these paths, and by reapplying them, it creates unnecessary
>> challenges. I urge you to respect NPWS’s decision and refrain from adding
>> these paths back onto OpenStreetMap.
>>
>> Your cooperation in this matter is greatly appreciated and will
>> contribute to the effective management of the area.
>>
>> Thank you for your understanding.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have replied back, requesting that he either make comments on the
>> changeset, or discuss on the mailing list, rather than send private
>> messages, as I don’t want to be passing messages back and forth. (Thanks
>> to tonyf1 who has made the same suggestion on the changeset.)
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark P.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 20 Feb 2024, at 2:13 pm, Mark Pulley  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I’ve just received a private message from Stephen Stenberg (who had
>> deleted these last time):
>>
>>
>>
>> Contrary to your statement, the NSW National Parks and Wildlife Service
>> has officially closed the track.
>>
>> “Reasons for reversion: This is still visible on the ground (checked by
>> myself 30 November 2023) The track is not formally closed.”
>>
>> Kindly refrain from reinstating this track, as doing so will necessitate
>> its removal once again by NPWS.
>>
>>
>>
>> So far the track hasn’t been deleted again.
>>
>> I had asked on one of the older changesets about whether this had been
>> officially closed - didn’t get an answer to that, only "These tracks per
>> our request have been removed. Please do not add them back on."
>>
>> It’s a shame that NPWS hadn’t bothered to join the discussion on here.
>>
>> I’ve added a

Re: [talk-au] Question about using NSW Speed Zone Data in OSM

[Andy Townsend]

On 21/02/2024 11:45, Mark Pulley wrote:
I’ve got some further info on how this user has been editing (see 
comment on changeset https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117791362 )


In short, Harsimranjit works for an un-named company. Unspecified 
people can report an incorrect speed limit on a road segment, it is 
verified (?how?) by someone else in the company, then goes to 
Harsimranjit who checks the claimed speed limit change with NSW Speed 
Zone Data, then if the NSW Speed Zone Data matches the proposed 
change, the edit is made. This process has obviously not worked in at 
least a few of these changesets (the ones I found had been changed 
incorrectly).



Separate to any other issues, at the very least, that company should be 
following the organised editing guidelines.  If you drop an email to 
d...@openstreetmap.org, we can try and persuade them to do so.  I don't 
think we've had a ticket or report about this particular one so far.


Best Regards,

Andy (from the DWG)


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Re: [talk-au] Question about using NSW Speed Zone Data in OSM

[Mark Pulley]

I’ve got some further info on how this user has been editing (see comment on 
changeset https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117791362 )

In short, Harsimranjit works for an un-named company. Unspecified people can 
report an incorrect speed limit on a road segment, it is verified (?how?) by 
someone else in the company, then goes to Harsimranjit who checks the claimed 
speed limit change with NSW Speed Zone Data, then if the NSW Speed Zone Data 
matches the proposed change, the edit is made. This process has obviously not 
worked in at least a few of these changesets (the ones I found had been changed 
incorrectly).

Mark P.

> On 19 Feb 2024, at 8:19 pm, Mark Pulley  wrote:
> 
> I haven’t done any reversions yet. I was planning to start from the oldest 
> changeset and work forwards, however the oldest changesets don’s specify a 
> source. I’ve asked about a couple of these including:
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117791362 - first changeset - on 
> outskirts of Wilcannia
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117831384 - outskirts of Old Junee
> 
> Both of these are claimed to be from information provided by ’someone’ who 
> had travelled on those roads. I’ve just asked for more info regarding the 
> source of this information.
> 
> I also queried a couple of recent edits from 'local information and NSW Speed 
> Data’:
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/147432769 - western edge of Kempsey 
> from 'local information and NSW Speed Data’ - also from ’someone’ who had 
> travelled on those roads.
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/146881278 - private driveway near 
> Brooms Head from 'local information’ - I had previously surveyed this 
> maxspeed, and recent Google imagery showed the same limit. No reply regarding 
> this one.
> 
> How should I (or we) approach this? Will I need to check available imagery 
> for every changeset? Should I go ahead and revert the NSW Speed Data ones?
> 
> Mark P.
> 
>> On 12 Feb 2024, at 2:45 pm, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
>> 
>> No objections from me. They haven't responded yet, and from everything we 
>> can tell they imported the data without any other cross checks and didn't 
>> follow the import guidelines.
>> 
>> On Sun, 11 Feb 2024 at 22:00, Mark Pulley > > wrote:
>>> I’ve got some spare time (having caught up with the surveys from my last 
>>> holidays), so I can go through these and revert them. Any objections?
>>> 
>>> Mark P.

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