Re: [talk-au] Talk-au Digest, Vol 175, Issue 22
Anthony wrote "Creating new Bus Stop nodes Is the consensus to remove the plaform tags from new nodes?" I'm not sure I understand. If you are creating a new bus stop node, then there won't be any tags to remove, platform or otherwise. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Undiscussed, undocumented mass edit across all of Australia.
Hi Anthony, One reason I can see for discussing this edit here, before doing it, is in regard to the cases where the platform tag already exists on an area close to the bus stop node. If this edit had not been reverted then the question would be, who will clean up the mess of the duplicate tags. If you do get consensus to redo this edit then one question will be, How are you going to handle the cases where the tag is already present on an adjacent object? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hello!
Hi Martijn, In my opinion the biggest improvement to Australian OSM data, to make it usefull for automotive navigation, would be the addition of offline address data. I believe that most states have address datasets available that are OSM licence compliant and could be used for import. Would your people be interested in helping out with that? Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Wagga to Echuca survey
Andrew wrote "According to the Geographical Names Board "Bullenbung Creek" is the old name and "Bullenbong Creek" is the new name (and by new we are talking since July 1972)." Ok thanks - I'll put Bullenbung in as Alt-name. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Wagga to Echuca survey
Surveying the area between Wagga and Echuca last week I have noticed the following. a) At the turn off from the Sturt Highway to Lockhart the (newish) sign said "Collingullie Jerildere Road" and there were no sign saying "Lockhart Road". LPI NSW Base Map has "Lockhart Road". The lowerr end of this road is mentioned as "Lockhart Collingullie Road" in LPI although I have not yet got to my video of that part to see if I captured any signs of it. b) Halfway to Lockhart My video shows clearly the newish sigh "Bullenbung Creek" at the bridge over this creek (as does google). I read of the road sign just before this, clearly as "Bullenbung Road" (as in the audio track of my video) although google shows "Bullenbong - Rock Road". Unfortunately the angle of my video and the placing of this sign meant that I missed in on the video. LPI has Bullenbong for both and has the creek itself as Bullenbong Creek. Internet search finds both Bullenbong Creek and Bullenbung Creek but it appears that Bullenbung may be correct and Bullenbong may have been and old mistake now corrected. I think I'll proceed as if the road signs are correct and LPI is incorrect. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tathra Fires
Thanks Nev, Tathra looks good. Now if we could only get those addressess in! I'm convinced that for OSM to be really usefull it has to be able to fulfil the function of Car Navigation and that this requires all data to be available offline. So all we need is permission to use the LPI addressess for all of NSW and someone with the time and skill to do the import and we'll have a useful NSW map :-) Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Tathra Fires
I'll map all the houses in Tathra tonight unless someone else beats me to it. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] MS open maps
Address data could also be used to verify street/road names and also add them where they are missing. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] MS open maps
Hi Jubal The missing OSM information in Australia that would be, by a large margin, the most usefull, would be address data (and building footprint, if available). If we had address data then OSM maps would be usefull for the genberal public to use in car navigation etc. Collecting address data manually is tedious and unsafe. I believe that the address data is available for some states and if addedd to OSM, would make OSM the premier mapping source here. Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] BYO drinks at restaurant
Ben wrote "I think that's some kind of location code. I forget what it's called. If you search for that string in Google Maps it takes you to an address at the Gold Coast." Bing maps (and Bing search) does not know of this string. Maybe it's proprietary Google information. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] BYO drinks at restaurant
If byo=yes, then it would be useful to know if corkage is charged, and if so, how much. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Texas - redacted roads.
Sam wrote " https://services.slip.wa.gov.au/public/services/SLIP_Public_Services/Transport/MapServer/WMSServer " Thanks Sam, That WMS works well. I'll start working on this this weekend. The first area I looked at (Banksia Grove) looks to be a bit of a nightmare :-( Takes us back to to days of NearMap. It might be easier to just delete the geometry and re-add from Bing (with names from that WMS). Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Redacted roads in VIC QLD and WA
We have specific permissions to use certain QLD and WA data. Do we have any such permissions for VIC, or do we have anybody who knows who to ask? Also are there and tile servers or overlays for the QLD and WA data that we can use to manually get the redacted road names back easily? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Yellow Creek Road
Where Cooks Hill Road crosses the Hume Highway near Yass NSW http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-34.80827/148.93106 The are signs, on the sides of the bridge, facing both carriageways, saying "Yellow Creek Road", Why this so is a mystery to me and the only references to "Yellow Creek Road" that I can find anywhere are where the Police have given a ticket to someone at that bridge. PS - I did survey Cooks Hill Road, again, last Monday. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Fazzolari Avenue
In OSM there seem to quite a few incorrectly named "Fazzolari Avenue" ways around the Mona Vale Warriewood area. Not sure yet how they happened (may have been a copy/paste type issue) - not sure. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tagging for the router
When I said that Gosmore (YourNavgation) website had done something stupid, I was wrong. It was the data that was incorrect. I have fixed the data to make the acute angle , where the two carriageways meet up, far more acute (which agrees with the imagery. Once the Yournavigation site updates it's maps, I'm sure Gosmore will do a perfect job. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tagging for the router
"My suggestion is that the map data is the best place to store that information." Actually - the wiki page is very specific on this. "When a particular turn restriction is *the default* for a given jurisdiction *and* is *not signed* *don't map them*. It is much better to ensure that routing engines embody the regional rule rather than mapping every occurrence as a turn restriction." Ok so how do we "ensure that routing engines embody the regional rule:? E-mailing their support address and asking them to study the road rules for every jurisdiction in the world is not going to cut it. So maybe the only way is to name and shame them in a public forum somewhere, but where? I don't think that there is a routing engine out there that won't suggest crazy +90 degree turns on a high speed road. Probably, the only solution is to advise users to always check the "don't allow u-turns" box on their navigators. Also - how do we map a signed "U turn permitted" at traffic lights where the default is "not permitted"? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tagging for the router
"I'm assuming you mean the Intersection with Lane Cove Rd. If so it's not permitted to make a u-turn here anyway, as there is no sign permitting u-turns at the traffic signals. So I'd not add it as a restriction as anyone driving there should know that they can not make a u-turn there." Ok - since you ask - all routers I just tried , both on osm data and commercial data allowed the U-turn at the traffic lights at lane cove road. So do we contact all known writers of routing software and ask them to obey the local traffic norms, or do we force their hand and put in the restriction. Actually Gosmore nearly got it right but then spoiled it by doing something even more stupid immediately afterwards. I think that routing engine need to be made a lot smarter to handle edge cases where drivers can evaluate geometry a lot better and accurately than routers. PS - it is my belief that car navigation is mainly for visitors, not locals, so I think that routing engines should not try to be aware of local customs. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tagging for the router
"I'm assuming you mean the Intersection with Lane Cove Rd." No - the intersection with Chiltern Street although it looks as though someone has just added it. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Tagging for the router
What do people think about the intersection at -33.6793339 151.264475 The road geometry clearly indicates that there is no way you can do a turn from Moan Vale Road Eastbound back down Mona Vale Road Westbound, yet there are no signs saying so and I believe that most routers would suggest this if you were caught out going to opposite way that you intended. Trying to do a u turn here would cause a crash quite often, I believe. So should I add a no-u-turn restriction or not? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Secondary roads are of primary importance.
Actually. primary roads are of equal need for fixing. Maybe only trunk and motorways are reasonably accurate routing wise. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Secondary roads are of primary importance.
Secondary roads often have high speed limits and are connected to low speed residential roads. This can cause issues with cars slowing in front of fast moving cars and cars crossing in front of traffic. For this reason there are many intersections on secondary roads that have no-u-turn or no-right-turn restrictions. Often the restrictions are time limited depending on whether you are travelling to the city, in the morning. or back from it in the evening. A lot of these restrictions are not yet mapped in OSM and will cause irritating and incorrect (and often dangerous) route advise for visitors to an area. I believe that checking all seconday roads in the larger cities (and wherever visitors may travel) would be really usefull in making OSM better. First, use an online router to rout from one end of the secondary road to the other. Any "squiggles" where the router takes you off the road and then straight back on it, will almost certainly be due to missing maxspeed tags, where the router is using a higer default speed for the segment that has no maxspeed tag. These are easily fixed by survey. Then do the same for the reverse route. Next a really usefull tool is a dash cam with embedded lat/long and audio (E.G Garmin nuvicam or dezlcam). Drive the route and voice annotate all turn restrictions as you see them (sometimes the dashcam resolution is a bit poor at speed and the signs may not be easy to read). Then use JOSM, with LPI base maps and LPI imagery, along with your own dashcam imagery/audio to improve OSM for that road. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Data for OSM + talk at UNSW
Maybe you could get some students at UNSW to fire up a quad-copter with a go pro on it and get some up-to-date rectified imagery to check against their maps, then edit in any changes/improvement. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Vicmap data
I just tried to add some more Victoria missing road names but can't get the Vicmap imagery working in either JOSM or Potlatch. Does it still work for anyone else Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data
Thanks all, Got it working in JOSM now. (Just had a little error in the URL). Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] City of Melbourne data imports
Regarding the Address data potential import. The Vic Map data is already available for import and it contains the address info for all of Victoria. (as well as tons of roads missing from OSM) I think this would be the best source of address data to import. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Vicmap data copying
Am I correct in saying that it is permissable to copy street names from the VicMap into OSM? Also - what about the house numbers, is that ok as well? I have neither the time, talent or inclination to do an import of house numbers, but would help out in any manual effort to add all house numbers for Victoria into OSM. Is such an import envisaged because, if so, then I wouldn't want to muddy the waters by starting to manually add them. Also - I remember someone saying that Gold Coast roade name data was available. Is this available yet for josm or potlach since I would love to get the rest of the roads named up there? Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Vicmap data copying
Steve wrote IMHO some small scale imports may be useful, but from my comparisons, the VicMap data is not necessarily better than OSM. It often has stuff OSM doesn't, but sometimes that includes spurious stuff like roads that no longer exist, never did, etc. Thanks Steve, As far as importing goes, I'm only talking about house numbers (since they are so hard to collect by survey). I definitely think that road names must NOT be imported but added individually, where current osm data and bing imagery indicate that there really is a road (currently OSM unamed) there. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] M31 at Holbrook
Hi Mark, The B58 (according to the signs) continues right down to the Hume Weir (including Murray Street). C542 continues over the bridge and right up to the intersection with B58. I have amended these on OSM and added in a few road names in the area. Unfortunately my car broke down three time on the way home so I didn't get time to map streets in Albury. I see that some one else has kindly finished off most of Albury. I'm doing another bike ride down that way in March, and will try to pick off any remaining streets then. Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] M31 at Holbrook
Hi Mark, Holbrook looks great, thanks. I'll check on B58 and while in Albury I'll grab a few more street signs for some of the unnamed streets. I won't bother with Wodonga since once the Vicmap data is available for JOSM I can add them all then. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] M31 at Holbrook
Hi Arthur, mark, About four weeks ago I went down to Melbourne, for a bike ride and did have my GPS on through Holbrook. I saw someone had put the bypass in so I didn't think to check it. I've just uploaded my GPS and it matches the other one very well and is substantially different to the construction ways. Last Year I wen down to Nagambie lakes ( for a bike ride) and surveyed most of Holbrook (pre bypass) on the way back. A lot of this is now wrong, because of the bypass. Mark, I'll be going back down to Nagambie Lakes for the same ride this year (in two weeks), so If you run out of time or miss any roads, I will be able to finish them off. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Openstreetmap Quality Issues
http://www.gazette.vic.gov.au/gazette/Gazettes2013/GG2013S204.pdf Not sure what all this is about but may be of interest (it does mention Diggers Way). ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Openstreetmap Quality Issues
Hi Neil, I think the way to get this fixed permanently could be... Fix it one more time, re-add the note saying that the imagery is out of date and that this intersection has been surveyed. Change the source tag from nearmap to survey. Now even though one of the mnappers has a fairly colourful history of edit wars and non response to polite messages, it may be useful to send both of them a message pointing out that you have actually surveyed the area and that the Bing imagery is out of date. You could send links to the Google map sattelite view that shows the new layout and also the Google street view that shows the old layout. I guess that it's possible (but not likely) that the local council have decided that what they originally had was better and have resealed the parts that were removed. You could check whether the latest mapper actually surveyed it or just traced it from imagery. I also think it would be nice if all edit software flashed up a warning (once per session) if you change an object that has a survey tag. This warning would disappear on the next click but may serve to give the mapper second thoughts as to whether his changes are for the better or not. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] vicmap data licensing
Hi Li I'm convinced that you will find that it is practically impossible to mass import (or even mass merge) a new road dataset into existing data when there is a large amount of existing data. The only practical way would be to delete all of the Victorian data and start again with the mass import. This would destroy OSM Victoria. Using high quality external data to complete the existing data is a realistic and not to difficult job. Firstly any existing roads that lost their names in the licence change (or had only ever been traced rather than surveyed in the first place) will appear highlighted in OSMI and can easily be named using vicmap data by any number of armchair mappers. This is an easy and enjoyable task. Also the vicmapdata will probably have a lot of roads that are new or that have never been traced or surveyed in OSM. These can easily be identified by overlaying the vicmap data in one JOSM layer and the existing data in another. Using correct transparency and colouring the new roads stand out like.oops. Then the vicmap data (on a road by road basis) can be click selected and merged into the existing layer with all its tags. If a whole neighbourhood is new then it may be merged as a unit. You will have to manually connect the new road/s to existing ones but that is also easy. Bing imagery (which is very good in Australia) can aslo be used, at the same time, to verify or tweak the vicmap data as it is manually merged. All this results in excellent road data which will be better than any other prroviders, by a wide margin. I do this every year that new TIGER data comes out and I make sure a few cities in the USA are updated in this fashion. Every time vicmap produce new datasets this process can easily be repeated, without having to do a whole new mass import. Of course, ideally, local mappers will have surveyed any new roads way before vicmap have produced a new data set. This certainly happens in Canberra - which reminds me, there may be three of four new roads open today - I'll go have a look in a minute or two. Given the current amount of good quality existing Victorian road data in OSM, the task of getting it perfect using vicmapdata will not take too long. Of even more use would be if there is cadastral data available. This is absolutely essential if OSM is to ever succeed and this data is not easily surveyed. Walking around with a pad an pencil peering into people's letterboxes or doors is not safe or enjoyable. Therefore this data is ideal to be mass imported. (especially as it would probably be high quality data). Even then you would have to be careful not to step on peoples toes who had already done a street or two. Maybe you could import address info on a street by street basis and if your import program found any existing address data, it could ignore that street and create a list somewhere that people could use to do a partial manual import from vicmap data. How you programmatically compare streets in OSM and Vicmapdata is the difficult bit. No one in OSM has ever been brave (or maybe clever) enough to achieve this yet and I certainly couldn't. Mass imports only can work if there is no (or almost no) existing data. USA found this out when the mass import of TIGER data, effectively destroyed the USA OSM community and it has taken nearly ten years to recover. Unfortunately the original TIGER data was/is very low quality in terms of geometry and this still plagues the USA data to this day (and probably for the next 5 years or so). I'm sure that people in OSM-US can help in converting vicmap data into an imagery layer (and may even host it for you as well :-) Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] vicmap data licensing
Hi Li Does the vicmap[ data include road geometry and road names. If so then a really usefull thing to do would be to create an imagery layer from this data that could be used in JOSM. This is what is done in the USA with each year's TIGER data. Then we could use the Bing imagery the vicmap layer and existing data to fill in all the unnamed streets/roads and include any new ones or ones that have not yet been surveyed or traced. It would only be a matter of months and all of Victoria's roads would be completely up to date. Curerently, I'm spending hours each day using the TIGER data and Bing imagery in helping to fix up the horrible original TIGER data but would love to be helping in fixing up Australia. Nick Hocking Canberra ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Bicentennial National Trail
Hi The other day I was riding the push bike along some trails and got talking to some horse riders. It turns out the Lady (Jenny) is the ACT coordinator for (and also the secretary of) the Bicentennial National Trail Ltd. Naturally I dropped the term Openstreetmap and it appears that they are very interested to hear about OSM and their mapping guy would like to talk to us about what they could do with OSM. Apparently they are doing quite a bit of remapping in Queensland, due to the floods, so I see BNT and OSM being very usefull to each other. I told Jenny that one of our Canberra mappers (John) had done quite a bit of work on the BNT in the ACT and they would love to talk to you about it, if you'd be agreeable to that. They also need to have topographical maps for their trail guides but I'm not sure whether OSM has that yet for Australia. It turns out that the trail I was riding on is part of the BNT but is not yet mapped as such in OSM, so I'll have to start surveying the southern part of the ACT's bit of the BNT when time permits. Therefore, my question is, who is the best OSM person to advise BNT of the various technical details of using OSM map data. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] cities changed to towns
Richard wrote So if it interests you, have a go at it. It does interest me and I will have a go at it (eventually). However I have a few more pressing issues (OSMwise). We urgently need to complete the street name reclamation of Australia. To this end I will be mapping Hay and Narrandra in the next two weeks and fixing up Mildura and Renmark. I'll also knock out a few of the suburbs in Adelaide that have lost their street names. Also (and this could be done by an armchair mapper,local or overseas) we need to get all the house addresses for Australia into OSM. I'm also spending a lot of time fixing crazy TIGER roads in th US (I'm having a huge battle with some really crazy stuff near Lake Arrowhead). Once all the crazy TIGER roads are fixed and all the US house addresses are added then and only then will (I believe) Nokia start to use OpenStreetMaps in their mapping app. Then all the others (Apple, Google etc) will have to follow suit. Once all this has happened then I intend to spend a lot of time writing software for the mobile platform to do stuff that I find interesting. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] cities changed to towns
Hi Alex, My view on all this is that if a place has officially been designated as a city then we must tag it as such. If it is offically a town then we must tag it as a town etc. If we can't find any official designation then either common sense of maybe a state specific rule could be applied. Anyway, in my neck of the woods Goulburn really MUST revert to a city or we risk alienating all NSW residents and making our map unacceptable to a large number of potential users. Cheers Nick PS - Goulburn was officially declared a city *twice* because there was some confusion about it the first time! ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] cities changed to towns
According to NSW Government Gazette 1885, vol. I. NSW Government. 1885-03-20 Goulburn was officially proclaimed a City on 20 March 1885 This user has changed Goulburn from a city to a town amazing ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] traffic lights on dual carriageway intersections
Ian Steer wrote I think this is good because no matter which way you go through the intersection, you only pass one set of lights (rather than 2 if they were placed on the actual intersecting nodes). Couldn't a smart traffic light counter detect dual carrageways and just add a single signal, same as the exit counter does for roundabouts? Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Preparing to map.
Sorry folks, I was having too much fun in Port Macquarie and only got to map for a short while. I did some roads near the racecourse although most of these were never named in OSM before. On my returm trip I will make a more determined effort to re-map the rest of Port Macquarie. I have made a decent start to mapping the Gold Coast and I'll do some more today hopefully. Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Preparing to map.
I see that Port Macquarie and Wauchope need quite a bit of remedial work done on them. On my way to the Pan-Pac Games this week, I am going to try to acheive some of this. I started by realigning those roads that redaction had caused to misalign. Then I traced in those roads that went missing. I tagged them, temporarly, just as highway=road, so that they stand out. Then I changed those roads that didn't have a name to highway=road as well. Now what I'll do is make up a set of custom poi's with a coordinate from each of these road. That way my Garmin sat-nav will direct me to the nearest road that needs attention. I've found that there were a LOT of roads originally just traced in but then never surveyed at all, so there is so much work to do that I am going to try to do it fast. I'll have multiple loggers going and will be recording the street names via audio so that I don't have to stop to photograph or note down stuff. When I need to geo-locate my recording I will just voice record a time and simultaneously tag a waypoint on one of the loggers. Then, at night I'll edit it all in and maybe pretty it up a bit. Now , what would be *really* useful, is if someone/or two could check what I've done, maybe on Monday-week onwards. By checking OSM against some other maps (street directories etc) if you spot any spelling mistakes I've made or any roads I've failed to edit or name, then if you could note down the lat/long and drop me a message or note them to this list. That way, on my way back the following week, I can correct mistakes and complete the job. Then if I have any time left, I'll duck over to Wauchope, which needs a complete mapping, and get started there. Nick PS - there were some real problems with Port Macquarie that the redaction bot cleaned out nicely for us, so I think we could end up with a really nice Port Macquarie, which is only fitting for such a nice place! ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Importing locality names from GeoScience Australiadataset.
David wrote A lot of the locations are towns that only existed for a short time and many are ones that never existed, or existed just in the mind of a planner. Yes - this absolutely epitomises the main problem of most imports. Here we have 19,000 bits of data that are almost certainly completely irrelevant since for almost all of them there is nothing there in the real world. Thus the data is voluminous but poor quality and detracts from the accuracy and usefulness of the map. What we should do (IMHO) is grab the data (if its licence is compatable with OSM) then use it to go check out (survey) actual areas of Australia and put in any of it that we can verify as real and accurate. If we do this then we greatly improve the map but just importing the entire low quality data would be disastrous. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] brisbane mapping party
Hi all, I'm going to be at the Gold Coast for the week of November 3-10 for the Pan Pacific Masters Games. Although I'm registered in 3 different sports, I intend to spend at least one day (and some bits and pieces) reading as many Gold Coast street signs as possible. I'll be starting around the main beach area and work southwards. Although, with Melbourne cup on, I may well be more into indoor activities. :-) Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] (no subject)
John wrote I've been giving you a bit of a hand there, but mainly outside Canberra Thanks John, all help very much appreciated. Once I finish Canberra I will start helping out to clear keep right errors in Sydney. Keep right is the best method, in m,y view, since it gives immediate feedback on what errors still need to be fixed and also an indication of how much good work you've just done - both important things, I believe. I hope it was not mne that left those disconnections in Cootamundra, I'm always very careful about that even if I'm no so fussy that the road corners are untra smooth and pretty or conversely that I use the absolute mimimum number of nodes and end up with really ugly ways. Cootra was half mapped before I got there and I don't recall cleaning it up with keep right so maybe the disconnections were not me (hopefully). PS Candelo also needs remapping (along with Cobago) Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] The OSM ladder
Ben wrote Also, thank you for fixing those track sections at St Marys. Do you know what happened there? Given there was a derailment there 2 months ago, I find this a spooky co-incidence... Co-incidently I was in Sydney for the day, on that day, for a work meeting and as I was heading back to the XPT I saw the signs about the derailment. As to the mis-edit, probably just and overmapped helper from overseas who should have given up an hour before and gone to bed. Making lots of boring edits all at once is a recipe for lots of mistakes. Thanks for the links - it seems that the area around Pictgon is very problematic - this is not looking good :-( . Also flying it to Australia could be difficult since the world record for the longest cargo is 42 metres (in an Antinov 225 aircraft). Still, I don't have a problem with trying to set a world record. If this doesn't work then we would need to ship it to Australia or maybe just build it/them here, but how boring would that be. This could be all about making huge headlines around the country which would be a win for everyone ionvolved. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] The OSM ladder
I wish to transport a long thinnish somewhat fragile wooden object from Sydney to Canberra behind steam locomotive 1210. Given that there some tunnels along the way, is the mapping in OSM accurate enough in terms of bendiness to calculate (given a known width of tunnel) whether the wooden object will survive the trip. I guess it's a bit like the ladder around the corner problem except that the corner is not 90 degree and it's not actually a ladder. I suspect the object may be in the vicinity of 50 metres long. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] The OSM ladder
Alex wrote or a question about loading gauges that the ARTC might better answer? Yes it would be better for ARTC to answer but before I bother them I would like to know if it is at all feasable. Specifically, I am concerned that one of the tunnels between Queanbeyan and Bungendore may well be too sharp and since I'm sure it was not mapped by proper survey but just by connecting the two ends with some sort or curve, I may well have to get the object offloaded at Bungendore and trucked in from there. I'd imagine the curves should be ok for a 50 metre object but I'm not at all sure. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] The OSM ladder
Actually, I've just had a go with a 50 metre stick insect in JOSM and it is REALLY touch and go (or is that touch and stay). Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] The OSM ladder
Russell wrote you could at least work out a minimum radius of curvature OK - what I will do is find out the tunnel width. Then I'll assume that we offload the objecty just before the tunnel and walk it through with the object rotated 90 degrees through the long axis. I'll do as you suggest and assume a minimum (or should that be maximum) raduis of curvature and see what a best case scenario is). The only other problem I see is the tunnel near colo vale, looks like a close fit. Checking OSM I came out of Sydney the wrong way but when I was well and truly derailed at St Marys, I headed back inthe right direction. Unfortunately someone has connected two railway tracks with a residential road. It's hard to see how the bing imagery supports this view but I'll fix all those edits I can find in a hour or so since the history makes it quite unambiguous how the tagging should be. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] The OSM ladder
Ok - my initial drawings, using JOSM and a tunnel width of 3 metres show that this could end up being a matter of inches. I really have to find out exact dimensions of the object and whether there is any flexability in it so that we could bend it around the tunnel. Also, if two tunnels are such a problem then are there any other object close enought to the tracks (trees, signal posts, platforms) that could be an issue. I don't think we need special rolling stock, two or three flat beds with the object mounted on a swivel may suffice. A more practical (though less fun and flashy) alternative is to just have the object flown directly to Canberra rather than Sydney but this would also mean organising Customs to be present in Canberra. I can just see the conversation now. Do you have any wooden objects in your luggage to declare... Yes officer, just the one :-) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Routing islands
Hi ben http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/debug.html?view=routing_non_eulon=150.82846lat=-33.7503zoom=15opacity=0.98 gets the routing outside europe ( I had the same problem and went looking for this url) . http://keepright.ipax.at/report_map.php?schema=50error=38081608 paints an even gloomier picture. I am well on the way to fixing Canberra but the number of errors was/is amazing. I'm just about to do the floating Islands (orange in keep right). Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] New Australian caching server. Feedback?
Ben wrote 'Classic. You know you've got an OSM addiction problem when... ' What!! - I've only got 28 GPS units, at last count :-) Actually, with so many unit on me when I ride the bike (3 or 4) I thought I'd try to see if they interfered with each other. I believe this is why some airlines (or Captains) disallow GPS usage on a flight. (They think that GPS units act as some sort of secondary re-transmitter of the GPS signal. Anyway I dont believe that the units (in the 3 back pockets of my bike top) caused each other any problems. Having said that though, when the Qstarz 10hz unit was in one of the pockets, it was about 30 metres off for the first 20 laps then jumped a further 20 meters away for the next 20. I think that this unit just requires a better look at the sky than other units since the next day I had it strapped to the top of my helmet and it was bang on. (It did cause my head to overheat probably from breaking up the airflow). Last weekend the Qstarz 10hz performed poorly in the car so I need to do a lot more tests on it. Im going to have to buy one more logger. The Holux GPSport 260pro is as good ad the 260 but also will talk to ANT+ heartrate and cadence monitors. This is importand for me because it is not easy to read my Garmin gps watch while I am riding flat out and the Holux is easiy handlebar mounted. PS - I just saw that Cobago suffered a mapslide in the redaction process. I won't be able to get down there for a couple of months so if anyone is driving past, I t would only take half an hour to basic road map it! CHeers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] New Australian caching server. Feedback?
Grant wrote Have you noticed faster tiles this week? Certainly have.Many thanks Kris Ive just spent 5 hours editing in my mapping travels from today so the faster tile server really helped out. It is really fast. Ive also been fixing hundreds of keep right errors in Canberra, so Fast tiles are a must at the moment. Today I had 8 gps units in the car and 5 were logging . A sixth, my favourite, a Garmin 310xt forerunner was not logging because I forgot to turn it on:-( The Holux GPSSport 260 works really well, and has a good visualizer and will plot waypoints as well as tracks - really nice to use. The Qstarz 10 points per second logger is good for track work on the bike but does tend to drift out of position now and again. It also runs out of log space after a few hours. The Iphone/5 mytracks app is excellent and along with the voice memos make detailed mapping from a car quite possible. However I must look for a better audio app that will geotag my recordings so that I don't have to describe my position all the time and take waypoints with one of the loggers and then try to match them up. It works but is a pain. The io-data/holux-m-241 logger worked well and was the best for taking waypoints (the qstarz is also very handy for waypoints). So with faster tiles and better survey equipment I managed to reclaim lots of data today and get lots of new info as well. It's fun to be mapping again even if it is tearing hell out of my car. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Aligning steets
Stephen wrote there is now a need for using mini-roundabout in Australia. I always like to simplify things (maybe too much sometimes). How about If the approaches to the intersection/junction have roundabout signs then it is a roundabout, roundabout laws apply and we should tag it junction=roundabout and draw it as such with four or more nodes. If the intersection/junction does not have a roundabout sign, then it is not a roundabout, roundabout laws do not apply and, despite any paint or slight raisings we should tag it as a single node intersection. This does leave, once again, the mini-roundabout tag out in the cold (with the rundlehound) Right - that was way too simple - I'm probably wrong. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Aligning steets
Stephen wrote I'd be just a happy to use a normal roundabout way, and mark it as traversable with traversable=yes Yes - an excellent suggestion. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Today's Mapping
Great day mapping - tons of new roads (all virgin OSM) and some fixes to recent mappings as well. It goes to show that rechecking others' mapping will usually help improve the quality of the map. I'm pretty sure that I've made a few mistakes in today's mappings, so hopefully someone can check them at some stage. Eventually I'll get around to rechecking all my own mappings but I may make the same mistake again, so it is always useful to have a different pair of eyes go over the information. Today I found more street signs in error, to add to my list to send to the ACT government, and in a first, for me anyway, I found a street where every street sign has the same error (all four of them). My new GPS camera (TZ-30) worked pretty well and snapped a few good geotagged bridge numbers (damm - Jessie Street bridge *still* hasn't got a bridge number). My new data logger (I-o-data) seems good but has some issues. I have 3 different sorts on order, so soon, I'll be able to review them from the prospective of an OSM mapper. Today's logs come from my Garmin but since it was on virgin roads the points were real and not snapped. Having OSM maps on the Garmin was invaluable in checking OSM mapping since I could check the street signs against what was appearing on the Garmin screen and also the track log, displayed on the screen allowed me to easily drive all the roads currently mapped in OSM so that I could check them out. Whilst mapping today, I was wearing my SOTM 2012 tee shirt. This shirt created a huge amount of interest in Japan where they could read the symbols, but weren't quite sure of the context so they had to stop us and talk to us about it. We made many new OSM mappers over there, I'm sure. In Australia the Chinese folk also can read the teeshirt but have a completely different meaning to it. - All good fun stuff. Tomorrow I will be mapping single track mountain bike trails and also riding a couple of new suburbs to map or check them. I'm really not sure what to do about track logs since the new data logger just wont cough up todays logs yet, I'm not about to take the Garmin on the bike, which I will probably crash a couple of times, at least, and my backup logger/work phone is somewhere between Narita airport and Canberra Airport, and my old Mio phones have terminally ill batteries. Maybe an old Garmin Nuvi will work out - we'll see. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Aligning steets
Hi Brett, You've just said a *really controversial phrase (mini roundabouts). In Australia there is a *LOT* of history surrounding these things. I do have a definite opinion on them but I reckon it would be best (if not unbearably tedious) for you to read the many vitiolic posts on this subject on talk-au. Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Least stealthy mapping style
In honour of my imminent return to frenzy mapping, I thought I'd make a claim for this record. A few weeks ago I cul de sac mapped most of Thurgona driving a Mazda RX8 with a stolen push bike sitting on top of it. (black grey Trek 4300 Disc). I did have to make sure I didn't go around corners too fast, but it did perform ok on the highway from Melbourne to Canberra. PS - yes, of course, I didn't know, at the time that it was stolen!! Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Few questions about tagging ways in Australia
John wrote Turn off the snap to road feature to avoid copying the existing map. Absolutely. On some of the older Garmin Nuvi's if you had the snap to road option on then the track log would still be the actual gps readings, but on my newest one the track log also snaps to the road . Unfortunately I can't find out how to turn off snap to road (Garmin 3590lmt) so I'm now using a dedicated data logger. (I-O-Data.) It's in Japanese but I'm sure I'll get the hang of it soon :-) Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] 5th Sep. Akihabara mapping party, Tokyo
Excellent, I think I have time to get from the Airport to my hotel then back to the mapping party by 10 am. I want to attend the first session so that I can then do some serious gadget shopping. Unfortunately the gadgets I really want have probably not been made yet. 1) A GPS navigator wrist watch that lets me navigate without having to look away from the road (using OSM data of course). 2) a mobile phone (with GPS and OSM) waterproof to 50 metres. Still. I'll have fun looking. Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
Ok - I have put the VIC/TAS border back to the correct latitude and moved Boundary Islet down to straddle it. Since I have no way of knowing where the border is, in relation to the island, I have given Victoria four times as much of it as Tasmania (in relation to their relative areas). I'm hoping now, that some Tasmanian OSMer will disagree with this and organise a mapping party out on the rock to find exactly where the Islet is and how much each state gets. We could send out another boat from Melbourne and meet there. If it is not possible/allowable to land, we would need to find out a way to accurately map the island from the sea. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] osm osm couldn't load status information
Hi Brett, Earlier today view was on the blink (error on page) but seems ok now, though I'm on a different computer. I don't get any couldn't load errors but maybe I'm not doing the same things as you, Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
Leon wrote Was looking at Victoria/Tasmania border and I have a feeling it's not quite right in OSM. Hi Leon, Yes, embarrasingly I've put the border on the wrong Island. In my defence - the 39.2 latitude passess about 160 metres south of Boundary Islet according to both Bing and Google imagery. Wiki even states the Latitude as 39 11' 55 instead of the correct 39 12' in order to make the border cross the land. All the imageries must be wrong. I've just moved the border on to the correct Island which is now mapped but it is still in the wrong position. Interestingly OSM renderiings still don't have the slightly improved outline of the original Boundary Islet that I edited in four days ago. This is all very strange, I'm not sure what to do since I can't easily get out there with a GPS unit. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
Michael wrote OK, I have just imported the missing parts of the ACT border (changeset #12765494). Looks good Michael, I have moved some points on the straight bit using information from some of my GPS traces. One spot where my GPS traces don't indicate the border is on the extension to Hugh Mackay Crescent. John, does your information of this area (Bicentennial Natiuonal Trail) indicate where the border is? BTW I'm doing a mapping run down to Melbourne this weekend, is there any (small) thing anyone wants checked out on the way (back). Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
John wrote the border follows this fence-line (at least in the vicinity of the gate): Thanks John I've moved the border closer to the gate, keeping the gate in NSW and the trail in ACT. The border looks a bit crooked to me now, I'll have to do some more work on it in a couple of weekends time. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] School Zones
Ben wrote Does anyone else have thoughts about school zones Hi Ben, In South Australia, I've seen school zone signs that say Max 20 KPH, when children are present Now - that's going to be hard to tag :-) Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
OK - I've just completed the arduous task of reinstating the complete Victoria/Tasmania border! Also I'll check out the S.A Victoria border to see if it conforms with the disputed area. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Fixing relations in Canberra
Mark wrote Can someone help with a couple of these in the ACT? Certainly can, I'll drive them tonight and/or tomorrow morning and we'll get them them sorted out. From memory the routes diverge near the circles and we have to take ALT 23 into account as well. Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Fixing relations in Canberra
Ok - I've just driven 23 and 52 and Alt 23 (well not the entire lengths of course). Southbound 23 (the signs never say NR or NH, just 23 in a shield) comes down Commonwealth Avenue swings left into Capital Circle (not State Circle) then onto Canberra Avenue. At Monaro Highway it turns right and heads off down to Cooma. Going back the other way it comes up Monaro, left into Canberra Ave, then right into State Circle and then swings left up the ramp onto Commonwealth Ave and then on to Yass. Alt 23 carries on from 23 at the junction with Canberra Ave and then up the remants of Dairy Road and a bit of Morshead Drive, right onto Faitbairn Avenue and left into Majura Road and then joins 23 at junction with Horse Park Drive. Now Highway 52 Eastbounds. The first sign I could find (and I looked around for an hour) was at the roundabout at Lanyon Drive. There was a sign with a 90% obscured 52 about 100 yards west of the roundabout but nothing further westwards although http://www.ozroads.com.au/NSW/RouteNumbering/National%20Routes/52/nr52.htm states that 52 starts at Monaro Highway. I'd be inclined to put that bit of Highway 52 into the relation since it makes sense anyway. PS while I was driving back and forth, looking for signs, a new bit of road was opened as I drove through. Still until the licence change is complete I'm not about to add any new stuff. Another puzzle (tagging wise) is that travelling eastwards on 23 at Fyshwick, Ipswich Street is signed as ALT 23 although you don't really get onto to the real Alt 23 until you turn left into Newcastle Street and finally right, on to Monaro Highway. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal
The version1 level 10 ABS boundaries have now been removed. Now when you see a red way you know that it does indeed need work on it. If you use a mapnik rendering (whether Bing maps or openstretmap.org) the remaining level 10 boundaries show up well in purple. These will almost always be of two types a) someone has realigned the boundary based on local knowledge. or b) Someone has mixed an administrative boundary and a highway, railway waterway aeroway etc. in the same way. In the a) case the editors will need to save away these mods until boundaries are reapplied and then remake the changes, although it would be great if we can apply all state boundary changes to the old boundaries, before the licence change. In the b) cases each road/river etc needs to be investigated to see if it can be remapped from clean sources. There is a lot of work to do but each highway reclaimed will result in a marked reduction in loss of routability at changeover time. P.S. I've caused a bit of damage to our coastline which will be fixed soon(ish). ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal.
Mark wrote Mark wrote I haven't looked at all the state borders yet, but some of them at least are based on ABS data - prior to the ABS import, was there other data for state borders that can be undeleted, or will we need to add these in again? Yes - it's still a very good question. Once I've calmed down a bit, I will download an old planet file and start to investigate recovering our pre ABS boarders. At first (and second glance) it appears that the mad importers have just blown away all the state borders before dumping their free data on the map. All the hard work I did to get the Black Allan line exact at a proper geometry (NOT a straight line) has been quietly removed. This state border is now badly wrong (as bad as google's version also is. The importers did not even consider whether other people had edited that area before just blowing it away. Ok - I'm calm now (despite appearences). Does anyone know if there are old (August 2008) Australian OSM extracts available otherwise I'll start the planet download (only 5 gig !!!) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal.
Mark wrote I don't have an OSM extracts, but there might be another way: undeleting the old ways. Thanks Mark, There is one more consideration which applies to state boundaries and coastlines. Some CT-agreers have put in a lot of hard work actually surveying and improving these borders after the ABS import. I *really* don't want them to lose this work and therefore, we need to save these mods away somehow to reapply after we restore the pre-abs borders. I don't believe it matters whose name appears on the edits or ways but the work done must be preserved. This will not be a trivial task but if someone can think of a relatively painless way of achieving this, then, speak up Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal.
Mark wrote I haven't looked at all the state borders yet, but some of them at least are based on ABS data - prior to the ABS import, was there other data for state borders that can be undeleted, or will we need to add these in again? That's a very good question. The coastline in particular has caused some interesting discussions on this list for years. I'm sure there were all state borders and coastline before ABS but that the ABS data was usually better (but not always). I've had importers and tweakers cause some of the roads I've mapped to move into the ocean maybe three times (for the same road) but that's no problem, I've just tweaked the coastline back into proper position. Since the ABS import has deleted the previous data there is no way for us to get it back unless we can find some old planet files. I believe that the DWG would (be able to help us here). I'd like to get the ACT border sorted out pronto. Actually I spent a lot of time (and petrol) mapping the Black Allen line (NSW VIC straight border). I must check that the ABS import didn't mess that up. There is even a bridge (near Delegate) that VIC (i think) had to give back to NSW even though they had maintained it for decades because it was surveyed into the wrong state. I very carefully mapped this bridge's position. I tried remapping some coastline down near Eden, from Bing imagery. This works well buit is very time comsuming and the coastline is BIG and probably Bing imagery does not cover it all at the necessary resolution. I suggest we get back our old state natrional boundaries from before ABS and then improve them over the next year or so, at our leisure. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Splitter decliners
Mike wrote I also want to check what happens when an accepting user has subsequently made changes over the top. Yes Mike this is the real problem. If we just revert a decliner edit then all acceptor edits after that will go up in smoke. Whereas I believe that in the licence change the DWG will be able to (for a lot of cases) get rid of decliner edits) without affecting subsequent acceptor ones. I'm looking into the maxspeed edit problem (with expert help) and intend to sort out the boundary issues to some extent (see other post). Apart from that I'm up to my eyeballs in remapping various areas around Australia and overseas so as usual I'll ask a lot of questions but have few answers :-( Once the licence change is complete and we have put back all our data, I intend to get heavily into writing programs to use OSM data. (The first program will be for my phone -to warn me when I'm about to be attacked by a magpie on my new (1st in 35 years) push bike). I have a few questions about tempory hazard data in OSM but that'd better wait for another day! Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Power lines and footpaths
Hi all, Whilst cleaning up Canberra I have been very careful to remap everything that I have deleted either from my own survey or Bing or both. I also reconnect up everything - though I'm sure keep right will prove me wrong in 10's of cases. However some areas of Canberra are so well endowed with decliner footpaths and power lines that after one night of remapping these from Bing, I'm of the opinion that in order to save the road structures from damage, I am going to have to just delete decliner footpaths and power lines and map them later in the year (from Bing). I won't delete any that have joint cycle info and any that have bridge (or tunnel) implications, I will remap properly. Does anyone have a problem with this? Warning: answering yes may be seen as an offer to help me remap Canberra :-) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] maxspeed removal
PS - quite a few declines spent a lot of time just tracing from nearmap but never bothered to go out and collect the information on the ground such as street names etc. Most of this is still untagged and since it will disappear in April and needs survey anyway, maybe me should delete them now as well. Once again this will help by focusing attention on the real red areas. We'd have to be careful of non residential roads since one decliner has been removing names for quite a while now and putting them into relations (which raises a whole new set of problems for us to fix.) Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Splitter decliners
If a decliner splits a ,mappers road then he/she becomes the version 1 owner of that mappers copyrightable information for the rest of the way. I think it's morally (maybe even legally) wrong for the decliner to now extinguish this copyright by refusing to relicence it. Since I think it unlikely that they see things as I do, I think it would be good if we could find all such occurrences in the OSM database and list out the original owner so that they could reclaim their copyright. Maybe we could. If two ways with the same name are geographically close but not touching then list out the version 1 owners, lat/lon and name. (only if exactly one of the two version 1 owners is a decliner.) Unfortunately this wouldn't cover the cases where the decliner has done a single split, thus taking over the way, or where he has split the way, discarded the front bit and then back filled from the split. The first example of the last case that I've noticed is in Sydney but fortunately I have surveyed that particular area myself so I can reclaim the mappers information using my own data. Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Apology and Re: Mass revert now??
David wrote I can always retag from my records after the split Hi David, It does seem that most of your work will survive. Those maxspeed edits done by bots (under the userid of JohnSmith or Rosscoe) will disappear without harm in April. A lot of them are incorrect so the accuracy of the OSM data will actually improve a bit. However some decliner edits will affect your work. If you look at the intersection of Leichardt Avenue and Amity Drive. It seems that you mapped this area well, in 2007. Then in 2009 the user JohnSmith and also Rosscoe have made minor improvements and tweaks. This has, in a lot of cases ended up with them being version1 owners of the roads you mapped. These will disappear with the licence change and the one bit of Amity Drive that still has you in the histroy chain will be left disconnected. You will nedd to remap these bits from your original data and you can also use Bing to put in that roundabout at the intersection. The real problem is that you can't easily see which of your work is only tainted by the maxspeed bots and which has been compromised by other decliner edits. However I'm hopeful there may be a soultion to this problem in the near future. Till then you will need to inspect your work (way by way) to check out the history chain, manually ignore any changes by JohnSmith or Rosscoe that were only for masxpeed maxspeed:source or source:maxspeed, and then concentrate on what of your information is at risk from any other decliner edits. You will find that decliners have put in roundabouts, straightened roads, added turning circles etc. The turning circles are good to be there but there removal is not an issue unless an acceptor has subsequently tied a footpath to it, so it would be usefull for you to delete the decliners turning circle, the whole node not just the tag and re add it from your info (or Bing). This is a lot of work (you should see the hammering I'm giving the history database) but will result in the minimal damnage to our data come April. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Removing ABS data
Ben, It appears that ABS data that is inland may connect to the coastline but doesn't continue along it with the same way. Therefore I'm pretty sure that if you are carefull not to actually click on the coastline at all, then you will be quite safe. Happy cleaning Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Removing ABS data
Ben wrote I'm particularly worried about large slabs of coastline disappearing. Ben, I'm avoiding touching the coastline since it does not get in my way for remapping roads and since I don't want to flood all of australia :-). I'll have a pretend delete session of ABS ways near coastlines tonight to see if it is easy to avoid the coastline. If not we'll have to split the way near the coast to isolate it from the coast before deleting it. I know for a fact that Frederick would love to be the one to finally get rid of that coastline and put a previous clean version in its place (which we could then improve from imagery over time). What I'm doing is deleting all the unedited ABS data (author is still ABS_2006) from an area which I will soon be cleaning. Then I wait for the OSM_inspector to remove their red dots/lines then I'm ready to work on that area. Any boundary data left in the area I try to recover clean tags from acceptors history and remap from imagery if available. If I can't then I just leave it for others or for the April rinse down. Cheers Nick PS don't worry about the broken boundary multipoligon relations, they can be removed holus-bolus any time later. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Strained relations
Hi, Whilst replacing tainted data with good data (in areas that I have personally surveyed), I'm sure that I have broken some relations. So firstly, apologies to the guy/s in Canberra that have done some magnificant work with relations here. I have been attempting to fix any relations that I have broken, but I'm not too good (yet) at them and so have probably messed them up a bit. Once all our roads are secure I will spend the time needed to fix all the relations properly. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Strained relations
Alex wrote The data.gov.au ODbL re-licencing means we could reimport the ACT bus route relations from: Thanks Alex, yes that's a bit of a relief. I'll still try to fix them as I break then since it's good practice but I guess we should import them periodically anyway to remain current. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Remapping Sydney's railways
Ian Wrote Regardless, I'm sure your remapping will be superior. Absolutely agree - on the ground mapping from someone in the business is as good as it can get. It will always be spot on accurate and also up-to-date. I'd remap Canberra Railway station except that they are going to shove it out to Fyshwick (I'll map in out there). Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Re-entering data to avoid licensing failure
Hi John, For towns that I have completely suryeyed, I will be remapping roads, as necessary to ensure that my survey work is not lost to the project. These roads will be completely replaced by my original data, maybe with some help from Bing imagery where it will help improve the accuracy of my GPS traces. Other things (like power lines etc) will need to be remapped at some time. I'm not sure I can complete this by the cutover date but that is no great problem for a long term project. From memory, these towns include, but are not limited to. Canberra Queanbeyan Yass Murrumbateman Goulburn Marulan Gunning Bowning Binalong Harden Cootamnundra Junee Jugiong Tumut Cooma Batemans Bay Moruya Mogo Narooma Merimbula Eden Tuross Heads Hervey Bay Aldgate Striling Crafers Harndorf Mylor Durras Ulladulla Braidwood Bungandore Tarago Tin Can Bay Bega Bredbo Delegate Bombala Rainbow Beach Majors Creek Captain's Flat Michaelago Sutton Gundaroo Potato Point Bodalla Narracoorte Bridgewater Nelligan Bemboka Nimmitabel Cunningar Heathfield Picadilly Uradlia Summertown Yeppoon Coolooa Cove Malua Bay Broulee Beramgui Tathra Pambula Bibbenluke Talbingo Adelong ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Maxspeed bots
Ross wrote The originator of the bot made a mistake with this and was going to fix it but the pre licence change lockout prevented this Ross, that's not my understanding of the situation at all. On 25 August 2010 14:40, Ross Scanlon info at 4x4falcon.com wrote: John are you going to do this? JohnSmith replied I'm stuck on 3G atm, I may not be able to get to it for a week or more depending on what happens until I get access to a DSL connection again. JohnSmith's last edit before lockout was on June 19th 2011 Therefore I believe that JohnSmith had no intention of fixing these errors in OSM. In fact it would not matter if he did so anyway. By applying his edits over probably hundreds of thousands of ways and then refusing to relicence these edits he has made the task of making the OSM data compliant quite tricky. It now relies on the DWG removing JohnSmith's maxspeed bot edits without destroying other mappers subsequent efforts. In the meantime it would be a huge advantage if potlatch or some other OSM viewer could just ignore all maxspeed edits in the process of determining which ways need to be remapped. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Maxspeed bots
Richard wroteHi Nick, I see several approaches available here: - ask the bot owner to accept - revert the bot work - ask for help reverting (typically others in the community or DWG) - argue convincingly on legal talk that the maxspeed bot and bots in general don't have rights to decline CT/ODbL Hi Richard. the bot owner has publically that he/she will never accept the CT, and I believe him/her. Reverting the work: If the bot work was done at (say) version 3, reverting the changeset of the bot would destroy versions 4,5 etc information, which I don't believe is acceptable or necessary since it affects such a wide proportion of australian OSM data. The two bots workwere done using the users normal contribing userids and therefore must be dealt with at the changeset level rather the userid level. I therefore believe that it is essential that DWG remove the bot/s soon (no one else can do it!!). However if anyone can instruct me how to programatically revert the bots work without losing subsequent edits, then I'll happily get started on it. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Maxspeed bots
Ben wrote The content of these edits is in the public domain (I.e. the default residential speed limit in Australia) and these edits could be re-edited by an actual bot. Given that these edits are easy to identify, and the large number of ways, this might be a useful exercise. It would give us a clearer in terms of knowing which ways are really in need of re-mapping. Hi Ben, I agree completely. However we can't just re-edit the bots work since it would still leave a ct_decliner userid in the history chain. Therefore I think that DWG (only they have the access), should just alter the changesets of the bots and any histories kept to other new userids that are marked as anonymoue ct acceptors. Then we can see what needs remapping and if further down the track we need to remove the bots work, well it can still be doneat that time. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Intersections
Luke Wrote I've backed you up on that one. All removed! I have no idea what their logic is behind (wrongly) mapping non-separated turning lanes in the first place! Hi Luke, Do you think that he may be upset at losing the railway station naming edit war a while back and may be trying to get his own back. I seem to remember that, at the time, someone said that he didn't respond kindly to questions about his edits. I really hope that he has changed his attitude but seeing as he is so meticulous a person, the gross errors of his lane edits and the complete lack of any connectivity leave me quite suspicious. I hope I'm wrong, though!! Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] [OpenStreetMap] intersections
Ben wrote... Well it's not accepted by me - IMHO you just need some more tags to express the information you want: At this years SOTM there was a brilliant talk about OSM Landmarks. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/SotM_2011_session:_Landmarks_in_OSM (unfortunately I can't find the online notes yet). I can't help thinking that Landmarks would solve this plus lots of other issues. I'll put together a post (next week) of my recollections of and my understanding of this talk. I think it's really important since it has completly changed the way I will be mapping in future. Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] A way to go
Ian wrote - I started a thread on talk a while ago about how to handle this situation, but it went nowhere, with the thread (as usual) hijacked to talk about licencing issues unrelated to the practicality of implementation. http://www.mail-archive.com/talk@openstreetmap.org/msg39790.html My suggestion was a mod to the API to allow an earlier version of an object to be modified and saved back the database, essentially ignoring or hiding an intermediate version where there intermediate version contained nonCT data. I agree that the ability to edit an arbitary version would be very usefull. I assume that if I edited version x then version x+1 x+2 etc... would disappear immediately. However before any editing can be usefully done, I believe that the maxspeed bots must be completely removed (or be reassigned to acceptor userids). Only then can we see which areas of Australia need to be remapped or retraced. Does anyone know if the DWG are working on this or should I email someone (who??) to request this. Only the DWG have the access necessary to weed out the maxspeed bots effects from the database and the histories without affecting edits on either side (chronologically). Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Missing streets in Sydney
Someone wrote Yep. A one-way street mapped as a two-way street is better than nothing. To me this statement absoluetly defines the difference between people who just want to see lots of lines on the map and people who want to actually use the map for navigation. Many moons ago I was driving on the 17 mile drive, trying to get to a golf course for a round. I accidently took a wrong turn and then the pathetic Teleatlas maps tried to get me to turn up one way streets the wrong way, eight times in a row. I just turned off the unit and navigated by the sun (which is hard for us Aussies in the Northern Hemisphere). This experience (plus some others with the substandard sensis maps) convinced me that we really need up-to-date ACCURATE maps which match reality. In Canberra I think I've fixed up all the one way streets that were not so marked. When up in Queansland, I was on a left handed golf tour and on the way home the bus driver, at one of the stops, admitted he was new to the job and didn't know the way to the next hotel. Of course I was capturing gps traces at the time so I told him just turn left into Smith street and then take the next right at the T junction. Unfortunately I was using sensis mapping and when we got to the right turn, there was a no right turn sign. The whole bus laughed a lot at this useless computer technonoly and the bus driver in frustration just turned right anyway, nearly taking out the sign and a few pedestrians as well. There are so many other examples where near enough is good enough maps are just so dangerous but time does fix most things and eventually the planet will be surveyed properly and we will have usefull maps. I think 10 years may see Australia with good mapping. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Missing street signs in Sydney
Steve Bennett wrote Or maybe the difference between people who think all navigation takes place on four wheels and the rest of us. It's interesting that you choose to use the I presume to speak for lots of other people and imply that there are way more of us than there are or you approach. If you were to use a statistical approach to the issue, I firmly believe that you would find that a significant majority of people that need/use/pay-for accurate mapping, are in an area unfamilar to them and are either on foot or more likely on 4-wheels. In either case they will need street names, that need to be collected locally, and if on 4-wheels, then turn restrictions are vital for safety. Another point is that walkers and cyclists can easily and safely pull over and stop to consult the map and make sense of it compared to what they see around them. Motorists usually don't have this advantage and therefore it is critical that their maps must be completly accurate and up-to-date. I also think that cycle paths must be surveyed rather than traced, since it is vital to note any local issue that may catch a fast moving cyclist unawares. Fortunately, I believe Canberra has been expertly mapped is this regard. Therefore my stance is that any map that has roads without the turn restrictions or correct names (as shown on the street sign) should be considered (at best) just as good as google,teleatlas navteq sensis etc,etc,etc. (and that, IMNSHO,is not not very good at all. /dismount SB ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Undreadful Imports
Ben wrote AFAIK there is no PD source of postcode data. The vibes I was getting, and of course I may have misinterpreted these, are that if we made any sort of decent case that the current ABS data, as imported into OSM is of some benifit in respect to disaster preparedness and/or disaster response, and that in order to keep the data in OSM, we need it to be licenced under a certain licence, then the ABS would have an extremely hard time saying no. Of course all this remains to be tested. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Undreadful Imports
Despite the danger of imports turnimg OSM into a dumping ground of substandard out-of-date data, there is (In Australia's case) some very good data that could be imported. Someone told me that currently, due to the recent disasters (fire and flood), mapping for disaster preparedness and response is HUGE in the minds of the governments involved.They also felt that anyone making any half decent case for release of ANY government data, under any licence whatsoever would almost certainly be successful. There is one set of data that I believe is high quality, up-to-date, extremely compatable with OSM aims, and is also very hard to be mapped by the public.This import may well already be in the planning but when I get back to Australia I will make sure we get it rolling. Other data that we/I could look at trying to get might be 1) Fire hydrants of the ACT (This one could be a bit difficult apparently). 2) pd licenced postcode/administrative boundaries. Anyone have any wishlists for (useful) data??? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Missing streets in Sydney
Hi Ben, I'm sure all the avid tracersout there will deny this,but, I believe that this is the downside to tracing. Once an area looks well mapped, there is little incentive for anyone to go there to map it properly. I'd really like it if all roads that don't have names yet (in OSM) were just deleted. Then II'd be much more inclined to drive there and collect all the infomation. I think that I may have traced a couple of roads in Grand Junction Colorado,but I'm about to drive there to collect names and any other info available. Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Searching OSM in Bing
Steve, or anyone... In Bing maps mapnik style when I try to search for a streetname, it does not seem to search the OSM data at all. Am I doing something wrong? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Going separate ways
David wrote Just a quick note that my understanding is those figures are generated based on v1 history, none of the bot edits would have been v1 unless they created a new entity, not just a new/modified tag. David, you may be right although I took Richard's nodes last edited to mean the latest version and a quick sampling showed about 30% of ways attributed to the two bots I mentioned. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Irony...
Matt, I hope Nearmap continue to use OSM data. I only wish that they updated it a bit more often. That Way (for areas they cover that I don't get to regularly) I can spot new roads that need a visit to survey properly. Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Bring all hats!
Hi Steve, Yes, I've got my tickets to SOTM and I hope you bring all your hats with you. In my spare time I develop some specialised applications for various sports/pastimes and I think OSM can be useful for some of these. I develop in Basic4PPC but the creators of this product can't make it work with Windows Phone 7. I'd like to upgrade my phones from Windows mobile 6.5 but won't until I can run the stuff I've already written and can develop new programs with Basic4ppc. There are already some useful BASIC4ppc programs that download OSM data and display in real time on a gps unit. Really usefull for mapping new areas (to see what has already been mapped recently). I'll talk to you at Denver about this and some other matters where I think Bing and OSM can be really usefull in Australia. Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
