Re: [talk-au] Adopting "AU" Prefix on Network tags
It makes a lot of sense. In the states / USA, we (OSM as state and governments rather naturally cleave here for us) "split at state boundaries" all the time (as regards to highways and routes). It is "sane in the long run" I believe is widely believed. Things "come into better focus" for many, is how I might describe it, and I think is happening (now, again). When/as there is "sense in our data" and people understand how to build it and use it, our data grow stronger. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adopting "AU" Prefix on Network tags
Hello Andrew, and all. I've updated the draft guidelines to document these changes. I've included an example of how it would be tagged. What are your thoughts? Dian On 2022-08-18 09:44, Dian Ågesson wrote: Hi Andrew, I really like what you're suggesting here. I'll adjust the draft I linked earlier to reflect what you've proposed below. If everyone is happy with the draft we can integrate it into our tagging guidelines proper. Dian On 2022-08-18 08:51, Andrew Hughes wrote: Hi Dian, Working with the National Heavy Vehicle Regulator and having data that honours the jurisdiction geography (I.e. state/territory border) is invaluable to us. I believe... Ways and State Route (relations) should split at the border. State routes typically form as members of the national route... therefore I would say .. 1. Ways are split or borders 2. Ways are members of state route relations network=AU:QLD 3. State relations are members of a national relation (if they make up the national network) network=AU I believe there is far less entropy in this convention as well. Thoughts? Cheers. Andrew On Fri, 12 Aug 2022, 2:38 pm Dian Ågesson, wrote: Excellent pick up Ben. For routes that cross state borders, I would favour using AU:NAT (or AU:COM/AU:FED/AU:AUS, something that says "interstate or national). I could also see an argument for creating a seperate relation for each state, with a national superrelation To be that seems like too much overhead. Dian On 2022-08-12 04:15, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 at 13:37, Ben Kelley wrote: I'm guessing more than one state has an A40. & how would we work "Highway 1", with its myriad of alternative designations & names? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_1_(Australia) Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adopting "AU" Prefix on Network tags
Hi Andrew, I really like what you're suggesting here. I'll adjust the draft I linked earlier to reflect what you've proposed below. If everyone is happy with the draft we can integrate it into our tagging guidelines proper. Dian On 2022-08-18 08:51, Andrew Hughes wrote: Hi Dian, Working with the National Heavy Vehicle Regulator and having data that honours the jurisdiction geography (I.e. state/territory border) is invaluable to us. I believe... Ways and State Route (relations) should split at the border. State routes typically form as members of the national route... therefore I would say .. 1. Ways are split or borders 2. Ways are members of state route relations network=AU:QLD 3. State relations are members of a national relation (if they make up the national network) network=AU I believe there is far less entropy in this convention as well. Thoughts? Cheers. Andrew On Fri, 12 Aug 2022, 2:38 pm Dian Ågesson, wrote: Excellent pick up Ben. For routes that cross state borders, I would favour using AU:NAT (or AU:COM/AU:FED/AU:AUS, something that says "interstate or national). I could also see an argument for creating a seperate relation for each state, with a national superrelation To be that seems like too much overhead. Dian On 2022-08-12 04:15, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 at 13:37, Ben Kelley wrote: I'm guessing more than one state has an A40. & how would we work "Highway 1", with its myriad of alternative designations & names? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_1_(Australia) Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adopting "AU" Prefix on Network tags
Hi Dian, Working with the National Heavy Vehicle Regulator and having data that honours the jurisdiction geography (I.e. state/territory border) is invaluable to us. I believe... Ways and State Route (relations) should split at the border. State routes typically form as members of the national route... therefore I would say .. 1. Ways are split or borders 2. Ways are members of state route relations network=AU:QLD 3. State relations are members of a national relation (if they make up the national network) network=AU I believe there is far less entropy in this convention as well. Thoughts? Cheers. Andrew On Fri, 12 Aug 2022, 2:38 pm Dian Ågesson, wrote: > Excellent pick up Ben. > > For routes that cross state borders, I would favour using AU:NAT (or > AU:COM/AU:FED/AU:AUS, something that says “interstate or national). > > I could also see an argument for creating a seperate relation for each > state, with a national superrelation…. To be that seems like too much > overhead. > > Dian > > > On 2022-08-12 04:15, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 at 13:37, Ben Kelley wrote: > > > > I'm guessing more than one state has an A40. > > > & how would we work "Highway 1", with its myriad of alternative > designations & names? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_1_(Australia) > > Thanks > > Graeme > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adopting "AU" Prefix on Network tags
On Fri, Aug 12, 2022 at 2:18 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > & how would we work "Highway 1", with its myriad of alternative designations > & names? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_1_(Australia) > How much of "Highway 1" is actually left? As far as I know only the bit in Western Australia is still sign posted "1". ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adopting "AU" Prefix on Network tags
Hi. This is a national route, rather than a state route, so we don't have that problem. - Ben. On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 at 14:15, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > > > On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 at 13:37, Ben Kelley wrote: > >> >> I'm guessing more than one state has an A40. >> > > & how would we work "Highway 1", with its myriad of alternative > designations & names? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_1_(Australia) > > Thanks > > Graeme > > -- Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com https://mrebenezer.blogspot.com/ This message was sent on my Atari 400 ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adopting "AU" Prefix on Network tags
Excellent pick up Ben. For routes that cross state borders, I would favour using AU:NAT (or AU:COM/AU:FED/AU:AUS, something that says "interstate or national). I could also see an argument for creating a seperate relation for each state, with a national superrelation…. To be that seems like too much overhead. Dian On 2022-08-12 04:15, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 at 13:37, Ben Kelley wrote: I'm guessing more than one state has an A40. & how would we work "Highway 1", with its myriad of alternative designations & names? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_1_(Australia) Thanks Graeme___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adopting "AU" Prefix on Network tags
On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 at 13:37, Ben Kelley wrote: > > I'm guessing more than one state has an A40. > & how would we work "Highway 1", with its myriad of alternative designations & names? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_1_(Australia) Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adopting "AU" Prefix on Network tags
On Fri, Aug 12, 2022 at 1:37 PM Ben Kelley wrote: > > I think we'll need a state component in the network (for state roads). > > I'm guessing more than one state has an A40. > > ref=A40, network=AU won't be enough for that. > That seems to be fairly standard in other countries. So network=AU:QLD, AU:WA etc... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adopting "AU" Prefix on Network tags
I think we'll need a state component in the network (for state roads). I'm guessing more than one state has an A40. ref=A40, network=AU won't be enough for that. - Ben. On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 at 12:55, Dian Ågesson wrote: > Hi, > > I've cobbled together a draft model of how we could adopt the "AU" prefix > within the network tags based on some of the issues raised in the previous > thread. > > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Diacritic/Proposed_Australian_Routes > > Would really appreciate your thoughts and opinions; tried to match the > existing structure as closely as possible. > > Dian. > > -- Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com https://mrebenezer.blogspot.com/ This message was sent on my Atari 400 ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Adopting "AU" Prefix on Network tags
Hi, I've cobbled together a draft model of how we could adopt the "AU" prefix within the network tags based on some of the issues raised in the previous thread. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Diacritic/Proposed_Australian_Routes Would really appreciate your thoughts and opinions; tried to match the existing structure as closely as possible. Dian. On 2022-08-12 12:36, Dian Ågesson wrote: Hey Andrew, I'm not surprised this is challenging to explain in an email. When I tidied up the Roads wiki page it was immediately clear that there are multiple layers of complexity here. My understanding that there are several distinct "highway" concepts in Australia. When you are referring to state routes and national routes, are you talking about the old, numberic route numbering system? Or, are you talking about highways that have been gazetted as a "state controlled highway", such as State (Bell/Springvale) Highway. Does it actually make sense to have the "A1" as part of the "National Highway" network, given that it is an alphanumeric route? I don't believe it is possible to assume that every numbered route has a specific name, and vice versa (The A1!=Princes Highway!=Imlay Street, Eden), but it would be help to update the network tags to be more in line with international practice. Dian On 2022-08-11 07:45, Andrew Hughes wrote: Hi Andrew, No I had not seen that and it's really helpful thank you. This is quite challenging to explain in an email but I will try... Scenario: Given a way, how can I determine if that way is part of a state or national route with a name? Scenario in Action: * Given the way "Mulgrave Street Gin Gin QLD" https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/31973923 * Is this part of any relation Yes there are 2 * First relation is the A1, is this a national/state Highway YES! because it has the route=road, network=NH https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/198279 * Second relation is "Bruce Highway", is this national/state, NO! because it does not have a network=NH or S tag. https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/198331 What's missing from the above: * The Bruce Highway relation https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/198331 * Does not identify that it is related to the A1 - National Highway * Does not identify that south most section in North Brisbane the M1 * Does not identity that this is a State Route - but I am unsure if it should * Similarly, the A1 relation https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/198279 * Does not identify that it is related to the Bruce Highway (route) * The way "Mulgrave Street Gin Gin QLD" https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/31973923 * Can't be reliably determined to be part of a state/national route and found to be named "Bruce Highway". Yes, I can say its on the A1 (national highway) but I can't say that the Bruce Highway is a State/Road route My 2c I'm unsure if what I am looking for should exist in a hierarchy of parent/child relations, or if it is best left to trawling through tags and finding references by convention and hope that things are tagged correctly. I kinda think the first is correct, or else why would OSM even have relations? Parent Child relation down to the way members * RELATION: name=National Highway; ref=A1; route=road; network=NH * RELATION: name=Bruce Highway ref=A1:M3; route=road; network=S <--- not sure if this is S or NH * RELATION: name=Bruce Highway ref=A1; route=road; network=S * WAY * WAY * RELATION: name=Bruce Highway ref=M1; route=road; network=S * WAY... * WAY... The above would allow a way's membership and hierarchy to be traversed. Thoughts? Please let me know CHEEERS! On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 at 14:50, Andrew Davidson wrote: On Thu, Aug 11, 2022 at 11:48 AM Andrew Hughes wrote: Some worldwide/geographic tagging guidelines exist, that are based on a combination with the "network" tag: see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:route#Road_routes Have you read https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines/Roads#Routes ? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
