Re: [OSM-talk-be] Possible problem with Urbis data import in Brussels
On 2013-08-19 22:25, Jo wrote: Okay, then I looked at the wrong page, apparently. It all started as a series of 'mechanical' operations on the data, but before submitting some human intelligence still needs to be applied to make it all fit with the existing data. We can, of course, create an account like UrbisImport and then share the password of that account. On the one hand that would seem quite odd to me. On the other hand it kills the possibility to create statistics on who does what where. I guess I'm going to have to go and ask on talk-fr if they finally gave in to the pressure from above and all created separate accounts for integrating their cadastre. I don't think they actually did so and I've always been saying that it shouldn't be necessary, just like they have. Unfortunately it's hard to agree to disagree on this sort of subject. I may also take a sabbatical leave of a few years/decades from the project. Just like I did when the talk about the license change started. Unfortunately that went on for years. I hate these kind of struggles. Sharing passwords is a really bad move. First of all, there is no way in a collaborative situation to figure out which _real_ person was responsible for whatever fuckup may happen (I can assure you they _will_ happen). I think professionals should refrain from suggesting procedures that encourage this bad practise. I'm not even going to go deeper in the 'why' that -bluntly stated- is idiotic and sucks terribly. I don't even see the merit in using a seperate single account for this. Maybe it's the word 'import' that triggers this, but as far as I know the Urbis work is not fully automated at all but it is reviewed by motivated, hard working individuals to ensure quality. So it's not an import in the pure sense as this seems to be misunderstood by looking at the complaints. There is actually a solutions for both problems, whatever constraints are being forced upon those people that do the hard work. I guess they are TOO motivated, situations such as these make you loose contributers by the dozen. I for one am very concerned that Jo makes these sabatical statements as one of the key players in the .BE OSM scene. (just face it Jo, you are one of the driving forces, no denying it). The solution is as simple as it gets: Use a dedicated changeset tag, whatever account you use. being it individuals or a dedicated account, put a well chosen changeset tag(s), this can contain: - the userID that made the effort, even though it's commited through another account. - the sort of import the changeset represents. I think we already do the second one, since this is the way this got spotted in the first place afaik. The first one we just need to aggree upon as .BE OSM community. Would love to hear what benefit a seperate/dedicated yet shared account brings to the table. Take all the time you need to answer this. Glenn ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Possible problem with Urbis data import in Brussels
Hi Glenn, I've seen all this happening before as I'm monitoring talk-fr and it's indeed quite discouraging to see that people like pnorman with a bit more power to wield than the rest if us, seem to deem it necessary to threaten to block hard working contributors. And I've already been sending him angry mails on th subject when French users have effectively been blocked, so he knows my point of view. Anyway, I tried to learn from the French cadastre situation and tried to do things right here, but apparently I've managed to consult the wrong wiki page for guidance. As for the burn out and the sabbatical that may or may not occur, that's not exactly related to Urbis. Rather a shift in priorities, during the summer. Let's see what the fall and wintertime bring. Jo Op 22 aug. 2013 15:30 schreef Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be het volgende: On 2013-08-19 22:25, Jo wrote: Okay, then I looked at the wrong page, apparently. It all started as a series of 'mechanical' operations on the data, but before submitting some human intelligence still needs to be applied to make it all fit with the existing data. We can, of course, create an account like UrbisImport and then share the password of that account. On the one hand that would seem quite odd to me. On the other hand it kills the possibility to create statistics on who does what where. I guess I'm going to have to go and ask on talk-fr if they finally gave in to the pressure from above and all created separate accounts for integrating their cadastre. I don't think they actually did so and I've always been saying that it shouldn't be necessary, just like they have. Unfortunately it's hard to agree to disagree on this sort of subject. I may also take a sabbatical leave of a few years/decades from the project. Just like I did when the talk about the license change started. Unfortunately that went on for years. I hate these kind of struggles. Sharing passwords is a really bad move. First of all, there is no way in a collaborative situation to figure out which _real_ person was responsible for whatever fuckup may happen (I can assure you they _will_ happen). I think professionals should refrain from suggesting procedures that encourage this bad practise. I'm not even going to go deeper in the 'why' that -bluntly stated- is idiotic and sucks terribly. I don't even see the merit in using a seperate single account for this. Maybe it's the word 'import' that triggers this, but as far as I know the Urbis work is not fully automated at all but it is reviewed by motivated, hard working individuals to ensure quality. So it's not an import in the pure sense as this seems to be misunderstood by looking at the complaints. There is actually a solutions for both problems, whatever constraints are being forced upon those people that do the hard work. I guess they are TOO motivated, situations such as these make you loose contributers by the dozen. I for one am very concerned that Jo makes these sabatical statements as one of the key players in the .BE OSM scene. (just face it Jo, you are one of the driving forces, no denying it). The solution is as simple as it gets: Use a dedicated changeset tag, whatever account you use. being it individuals or a dedicated account, put a well chosen changeset tag(s), this can contain: - the userID that made the effort, even though it's commited through another account. - the sort of import the changeset represents. I think we already do the second one, since this is the way this got spotted in the first place afaik. The first one we just need to aggree upon as .BE OSM community. Would love to hear what benefit a seperate/dedicated yet shared account brings to the table. Take all the time you need to answer this. Glenn __**_ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk-behttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Possible problem with Urbis data import in Brussels
Hi, I must admit I had to search for a while but these are some of the main reasons for a separate account: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Draft/Edit_Policy/dedicated_user_account_for_imports Also when having separate accounts imported data can be more easily identified and attribution can be on the user. In the guidelines it states that you can also create separate per user 'username_import' accounts to keep track of everyones progress: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines#Use_a_dedicated_user_account Also no reason here to get discouraged I believe. There is a need for some of these rules to keep the project going but OpenStreetMap is still a very open project, anybody can still pretty much do whatever they want except for some small technicalities. Met vriendelijke groeten, Best regards, Ben Abelshausen ben.abelshau...@gmail.com On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Glenn, I've seen all this happening before as I'm monitoring talk-fr and it's indeed quite discouraging to see that people like pnorman with a bit more power to wield than the rest if us, seem to deem it necessary to threaten to block hard working contributors. And I've already been sending him angry mails on th subject when French users have effectively been blocked, so he knows my point of view. Anyway, I tried to learn from the French cadastre situation and tried to do things right here, but apparently I've managed to consult the wrong wiki page for guidance. As for the burn out and the sabbatical that may or may not occur, that's not exactly related to Urbis. Rather a shift in priorities, during the summer. Let's see what the fall and wintertime bring. Jo Op 22 aug. 2013 15:30 schreef Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be het volgende: On 2013-08-19 22:25, Jo wrote: Okay, then I looked at the wrong page, apparently. It all started as a series of 'mechanical' operations on the data, but before submitting some human intelligence still needs to be applied to make it all fit with the existing data. We can, of course, create an account like UrbisImport and then share the password of that account. On the one hand that would seem quite odd to me. On the other hand it kills the possibility to create statistics on who does what where. I guess I'm going to have to go and ask on talk-fr if they finally gave in to the pressure from above and all created separate accounts for integrating their cadastre. I don't think they actually did so and I've always been saying that it shouldn't be necessary, just like they have. Unfortunately it's hard to agree to disagree on this sort of subject. I may also take a sabbatical leave of a few years/decades from the project. Just like I did when the talk about the license change started. Unfortunately that went on for years. I hate these kind of struggles. Sharing passwords is a really bad move. First of all, there is no way in a collaborative situation to figure out which _real_ person was responsible for whatever fuckup may happen (I can assure you they _will_ happen). I think professionals should refrain from suggesting procedures that encourage this bad practise. I'm not even going to go deeper in the 'why' that -bluntly stated- is idiotic and sucks terribly. I don't even see the merit in using a seperate single account for this. Maybe it's the word 'import' that triggers this, but as far as I know the Urbis work is not fully automated at all but it is reviewed by motivated, hard working individuals to ensure quality. So it's not an import in the pure sense as this seems to be misunderstood by looking at the complaints. There is actually a solutions for both problems, whatever constraints are being forced upon those people that do the hard work. I guess they are TOO motivated, situations such as these make you loose contributers by the dozen. I for one am very concerned that Jo makes these sabatical statements as one of the key players in the .BE OSM scene. (just face it Jo, you are one of the driving forces, no denying it). The solution is as simple as it gets: Use a dedicated changeset tag, whatever account you use. being it individuals or a dedicated account, put a well chosen changeset tag(s), this can contain: - the userID that made the effort, even though it's commited through another account. - the sort of import the changeset represents. I think we already do the second one, since this is the way this got spotted in the first place afaik. The first one we just need to aggree upon as .BE OSM community. Would love to hear what benefit a seperate/dedicated yet shared account brings to the table. Take all the time you need to answer this. Glenn __**_ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk-behttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Possible problem with Urbis data import in Brussels
Hi everyone, As i'm a bit surprise that the warning raise only now after more than 2month of integration, I feel that the DWG is legit to raise concerns about any unadvertized ongoing imports. Now, as the urbis import look more like a manual process than a bulk and blind edit and that the effect is really limited in surface I don't consider it as a risk for the osm community as the tiger import was for example...( the data quality is also a lot better ). I think that one think that make this import more DWG friendly is to be sure to properly replace the existing buildings ( Replace Geometry (Ctrl+Shift+G) with utilsplugin2 ) and to properly check for duplicate and other problems. regarding the 2 account as long as we stick with proper changeset tagging i don't really see the point.. Regards Brice aka eMerzh ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Possible problem with Urbis data import in Brussels
Hi, I think we all know that this import is supported by our local community here in Belgium. What I know about imports: - Always use separate accounts - Always announce on the imports list oh, and maybe that wiki page should change then? I think it needs to be merged with this one: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines As i understand the Urbis import is not really mechanical editing? Met vriendelijke groeten, Best regards, Ben Abelshausen ben.abelshau...@gmail.com http://twitter.com/xivk On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote: Here we go again. I've been reading this page, when I was checking out what was needed for adding the UrbIS data: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edit_Policy Where I found the following: Execute We recommend setting up a special account for mechanical edits but you may use your existing account. Any account used to perform mechanical edits must have agreed to the new Contributor Terms. I can't help it that information on the wiki is in several places. At first I actually added this bot=yes flag to my changesets. Anyway, I even discussed this with Frederik Ramm. He was very surprised, but he didn't change the page, nor did he notify Paul Norman and Co. The page has not been changed since then. Anyhow, I did what needed to be done to comply with that page, maybe it should link to all other pages, so people contemplating to do some sort of import know which hoops need to be jumped through. As far as the integration goes, I tried to learn from what happened in France. Correct integration with already existing data and such. We don't have blocks of houses with no streets in between. Discussion with the local community has taken place. Not a single soul objected to the fact that we would soon have all address data for Brussels capital region into the database. In fact, I think that everybody is hoping that the rest of Belgium will follow suit in the foreseeable future. PNorman shouldn't despair, it's unlikely that this will happen the first 10-15 years... Brussels information services is quite a pioneer to release their data under a free license. We've been at it for several months now, how come it's only being noticed at this point in time? Did our changesets grow bigger, or is it only when the information density becomes higher that flags are raised? Kind regards, Jo 2013/8/16 Benoit Leseul benoit.les...@gmail.com Hi all, FYI, I received the following message from pnorman after doing an Urbis import today. You may want to refrain doing this until the situation is clarified. Hello, I noticed you conducting an import with http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/17361862 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/17360583 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/16596677 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/16572616 The import guidelines require that imports be done from a dedicated account, after consultation with the local community and imports@ and be documented on the wiki. This was not done here. I can find no record of consultation with the imports@ mailing list. Where is it? You need to use a dedicated account To contact me you can send a message or email the data working group. Paul Norman for the Data Working Group ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Possible problem with Urbis data import in Brussels
Then the guidelines are clear I guess: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines Maybe we can create a separate account? Something like UrbisImport? Like suggested here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines#Use_a_dedicated_user_account Met vriendelijke groeten, Best regards, Ben Abelshausen On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote: An import is generally considered to be distinct from a mechanical edit*** * ** ** *From:* Ben Abelshausen [mailto:ben.abelshau...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, August 19, 2013 9:30 AM *To:* Jo Simoens; OpenStreetMap Belgium *Cc:* Paul Norman *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk-be] Possible problem with Urbis data import in Brussels ** ** Hi, ** ** I think we all know that this import is supported by our local community here in Belgium. ** ** What I know about imports: ** ** - Always use separate accounts - Always announce on the imports list ** ** oh, and maybe that wiki page should change then? I think it needs to be merged with this one: ** ** http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines ** ** As i understand the Urbis import is not really mechanical editing? Met vriendelijke groeten, Best regards, Ben Abelshausen ben.abelshau...@gmail.com http://twitter.com/xivk On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote: Here we go again. I've been reading this page, when I was checking out what was needed for adding the UrbIS data: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edit_Policy Where I found the following: Execute We recommend setting up a special account for mechanical edits but you may use your existing account. Any account used to perform mechanical edits must have agreed to the new Contributor Terms. ** ** I can't help it that information on the wiki is in several places. At first I actually added this bot=yes flag to my changesets. ** ** Anyway, I even discussed this with Frederik Ramm. He was very surprised, but he didn't change the page, nor did he notify Paul Norman and Co. The page has not been changed since then. Anyhow, I did what needed to be done to comply with that page, maybe it should link to all other pages, so people contemplating to do some sort of import know which hoops need to be jumped through. ** ** As far as the integration goes, I tried to learn from what happened in France. Correct integration with already existing data and such. We don't have blocks of houses with no streets in between. Discussion with the local community has taken place. Not a single soul objected to the fact that we would soon have all address data for Brussels capital region into the database. In fact, I think that everybody is hoping that the rest of Belgium will follow suit in the foreseeable future. PNorman shouldn't despair, it's unlikely that this will happen the first 10-15 years... Brussels information services is quite a pioneer to release their data under a free license. We've been at it for several months now, how come it's only being noticed at this point in time? Did our changesets grow bigger, or is it only when the information density becomes higher that flags are raised? Kind regards, ** ** Jo ** ** 2013/8/16 Benoit Leseul benoit.les...@gmail.com Hi all, FYI, I received the following message from pnorman after doing an Urbis import today. You may want to refrain doing this until the situation is clarified. Hello, I noticed you conducting an import with http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/17361862 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/17360583 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/16596677 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/16572616 The import guidelines require that imports be done from a dedicated account, after consultation with the local community and imports@ and be documented on the wiki. This was not done here. I can find no record of consultation with the imports@ mailing list. Where is it? You need to use a dedicated account To contact me you can send a message or email the data working group. Paul Norman for the Data Working Group ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ** ** ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ** ** ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Possible problem with Urbis data import in Brussels
Okay, then I looked at the wrong page, apparently. It all started as a series of 'mechanical' operations on the data, but before submitting some human intelligence still needs to be applied to make it all fit with the existing data. We can, of course, create an account like UrbisImport and then share the password of that account. On the one hand that would seem quite odd to me. On the other hand it kills the possibility to create statistics on who does what where. I guess I'm going to have to go and ask on talk-fr if they finally gave in to the pressure from above and all created separate accounts for integrating their cadastre. I don't think they actually did so and I've always been saying that it shouldn't be necessary, just like they have. Unfortunately it's hard to agree to disagree on this sort of subject. I may also take a sabbatical leave of a few years/decades from the project. Just like I did when the talk about the license change started. Unfortunately that went on for years. I hate these kind of struggles. Jo 2013/8/19 Ben Abelshausen ben.abelshau...@gmail.com Then the guidelines are clear I guess: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines Maybe we can create a separate account? Something like UrbisImport? Like suggested here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines#Use_a_dedicated_user_account Met vriendelijke groeten, Best regards, Ben Abelshausen On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote: An import is generally considered to be distinct from a mechanical edit** ** ** ** *From:* Ben Abelshausen [mailto:ben.abelshau...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, August 19, 2013 9:30 AM *To:* Jo Simoens; OpenStreetMap Belgium *Cc:* Paul Norman *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk-be] Possible problem with Urbis data import in Brussels ** ** Hi, ** ** I think we all know that this import is supported by our local community here in Belgium. ** ** What I know about imports: ** ** - Always use separate accounts - Always announce on the imports list ** ** oh, and maybe that wiki page should change then? I think it needs to be merged with this one: ** ** http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines ** ** As i understand the Urbis import is not really mechanical editing? Met vriendelijke groeten, Best regards, Ben Abelshausen ben.abelshau...@gmail.com http://twitter.com/xivk On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote: Here we go again. I've been reading this page, when I was checking out what was needed for adding the UrbIS data: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edit_Policy Where I found the following: Execute We recommend setting up a special account for mechanical edits but you may use your existing account. Any account used to perform mechanical edits must have agreed to the new Contributor Terms. ** ** I can't help it that information on the wiki is in several places. At first I actually added this bot=yes flag to my changesets. ** ** Anyway, I even discussed this with Frederik Ramm. He was very surprised, but he didn't change the page, nor did he notify Paul Norman and Co. The page has not been changed since then. Anyhow, I did what needed to be done to comply with that page, maybe it should link to all other pages, so people contemplating to do some sort of import know which hoops need to be jumped through. ** ** As far as the integration goes, I tried to learn from what happened in France. Correct integration with already existing data and such. We don't have blocks of houses with no streets in between. Discussion with the local community has taken place. Not a single soul objected to the fact that we would soon have all address data for Brussels capital region into the database. In fact, I think that everybody is hoping that the rest of Belgium will follow suit in the foreseeable future. PNorman shouldn't despair, it's unlikely that this will happen the first 10-15 years... Brussels information services is quite a pioneer to release their data under a free license. We've been at it for several months now, how come it's only being noticed at this point in time? Did our changesets grow bigger, or is it only when the information density becomes higher that flags are raised? Kind regards, ** ** Jo ** ** 2013/8/16 Benoit Leseul benoit.les...@gmail.com Hi all, FYI, I received the following message from pnorman after doing an Urbis import today. You may want to refrain doing this until the situation is clarified. Hello, I noticed you conducting an import with http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/17361862 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/17360583 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/16596677 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/16572616 The import
