Re: [Talk-de] news von steve coast
On Nov 24, 2010, at 2:09 AM, Martin Simon wrote: Am 23. November 2010 22:27 schrieb SteveC st...@asklater.com: wow Hey, stop google-translate-ing our list! We can only succesfully conspire against you, OSMF, ODBL and whoever-you-happen-to-work-for-atm when it's kept secret! Please respect that! Thank you sir. :-) -Martin ;-) ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de Steve stevecoast.com ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] news von steve coast
wow On Nov 23, 2010, at 12:36 PM, 007 wrote: Pure Spekulation ;) : OSM bekommt The worlds best sat imagery. Beuutifull pictures. Gibt es nichts mehr zu mappen wird nach einhelliger Meinung der ODBL-Verschwörungstheoriegemeinde die versuchte Übernahme der Openstreetmap durch Microsoft beginnen. Erste Anzeichen werden die dann in die OSMF eingetreteten Miniweichmitarbeiter (ca. 5000) sein. Cloudmade hatte einfach zu wenig, daher der gefickt eingeschädelte Wechsel von EvilSteve zu Miniweich. In Steves Blog wird stehen: Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me! Evil Steve wird entsprechend OSM Imperator und kontrolliert die Welt/ das planet File da in der ODBL keine Sicherung gegen sowas eingebaut wurde. Nun bekommt auch Oracle Wind davon das OSM eine geladene Opensource Waffe ist mit der man sich noch nicht ins eigene Bein geschossen hat. Beim Americas Cup treten Captain Coast und Ellison mit hochgerüsteten Superschiffen gegeneinander an Captain Coast läuft bei Kap Horn auf ein Riff... an der Qualitätssicherung liegt das laut einem gewissen Frederik nicht sondern an den schlechten Sat-Bildern von Miniweich. ... Hm, ich ahne, dass die Sache Sprengkraft haben könnte, versteh aber mit meinem Schul-Englisch noch nicht alles so richtig. Grade im Blick auf die teilweise heftigen Reaktionen, die einige große Softwarefirmen hervorrufen, wenn sie sich der OpenSource Gemeinde nähern (vgl. OpenOffice ). Könnte mir mal jemand in meiner Muttersprache auch den genauen Vorgang erklären der dahinter steckt?? Bitte wenn möglich keine Spekulationen, das ufert dann immer so aus ;(( Gruß UMAX974 Am 23.11.2010 um 19:37 schrieb Walter Nordmann: hi, chrossposting hin - crossposting her: gerade im forum aufgeschnapt. http://blog.stevecoast.com/im-working-at-microsoft-and-were-donating-ima danke für die info an geogast. lg walter - Der Usus von Xenologismen ist auf ein Minimum zu reduzieren. -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/news-von-steve-coast-tp5767805p5767805.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de Steve stevecoast.com ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Fwd: Open street Map - correction
Yours c.SteveBegin forwarded message:From: Michael Besteck sw...@web.deDate: June 25, 2010 9:22:35 MDTTo: st...@asklater.comSubject: Open street Map - correctionReply-To: "Michael Besteck" sw...@web.deDear SteveThanks for Street Maps, heard about in detail on one of the pastCCC-Congresses in Berlin via video file.Maybe one day i become a "professional" street-mapper, but for now ijust want to announce/correct one error:Today i discovered on the website "wohnung.net" an error in street map data:In the city of Cologne, Germany in the "Rolandstraße" (where i actuallylive) Open Street map still shows the location "Fifi bar".In 2009 the Fifi bar has moved (not so very far) and is now located inthe street "Severinswall".The place of formerly Fifi-Bar is now occupated by "Mondial-Bar", butsince that bar is usually low frequented, i am not sure if it would makesense to notice that.Hope i could help.Yours sincerelyMichael Besteckps. As of now: No, i will not login, read your instructions of use andall that stuff...maybe one day if i shall become a street mapper...attachment: swdev.vcf___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] FUD
Hello I've been kindly passed some translations of mails that have appeared here from German to English. I'm going to assume the translations are broadly correct. The mails make a number of accusations about me and CloudMade, most of it familiar conspiracy theory stuff. First, CloudMade doesn't have the majority of OSMF members by a long way. I'm guessing it's approximately 10%. This is one of those things where I think we would be wrong either way - we'd be wrong to not be involved and all of our staff just ignore OSM and the OSMF and we're wrong to be involved. Do we tell them how to vote for anything? No of course not. Feel free to ask them. The best way to dilute this is to join OSMF and get involved. On the idea that I personally control all of OSMF and the LWG - this is very wrong. As you will see from the minutes of the LWG, first I haven't been attending them all lately, second I don't chair it, Mike Collinson does. On the idea that I should be pushed off my high horse, I don't own a horse and it's my fiance who likes horses, not me :-) On the idea that the LWG has been ignoring critiscm... This is clearly false. The LWG has been listening for years, has had open minutes, has actively participated on all the mailing lists it can, but mainly for obvious reasons legal-talk. Finally please understand that *whatever* the LWG does it will be criticised for it. A license change process is long and hard and thankless. Even if it did everything perfectly for one set of people, OSM is a broad huge set of people with a lot of opinions and it's simply impossible to make everyone happy at the same time - just look at any tagging debate! Yours c. Steve http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-de/2009-December/059883.html Ulf Lamping wrote: i came to the conclusion, that the new ODBL licence is not able to solve the problems at hand, but instead is causing a lot of new ones. I can only comment on the way that the licence is going to be pushed through with a shake of the head. I share your view. I find it scandalous, that the commercial company CloudeMade is now claiming all the data for itself. I think it is about time, that the project itself is voting on some administrators to take leadership. Who by the way authorised CloudMade to take such far-reaching decisions? I'm afraid, Steve has gone far beyond his duty and some are going to vote against the new licence just out of protest. The text of that survey [the doodle one] is making me sad and angry at the same time. Furthermore, there is a lot of justified critic about the new licence, which apparently is deliberately ignored by the OSM regime. I hope, that more active people will resist to that licence, so it can not be pushed through. CloudeMade with their leader Steve should be pushed off the the high horse they are currently sitting on. I don't want to break loose a revolution, but the behaviour of that company is going to far lately. Enough reasons have been stated against that licence already. bye André http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-de/2009-December/059907.html Frederik Ramm wrote: What gives you the impression, that the new licence is a decision of CloudeMade? It is still a fact, that a majority of OSMF's members are employed by CloudeMade. Furthermore, the [OSMF] chairman is the boss of that commercial enterprise. Personally, i find that the worst possible combination. bye André http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-de/2009-December/059909.html I simply have a problem with SteveC being on the board of directors and AT THE SAME TIME having a firm that wants to make money with OSM. I demand, that such a person is voluntarily waiving the post because of the obvious conflict of interest. For me, the present situation is a clear breach of the principle of the division of powers. How can a person take objective decisions on the fate of the project, if his own livelihood is depending on it? A clear conflict is evolving at that point: What's best for me? / What's best for the project? Everybody (mankind is selfish) would go for the first option. I clearly remember the beginning of the ODbL -- at that time SteveC was having a leading role. He even wrote some personal mails to this list, some in a very unfriendly manner. All of his employees are mandatory members of the OSMF. I clearly see, that SteveC is trying to manipulate the decisions of the OSMF by bending his employees in a way that they have to adopt to their boss' will. You might want to call that conspiracy theory, but i have the justified fear, that the main focus of the new licence is to improve the situation of CloudeMade -- on the expanse of our painstakingly collected data. Furthermore, i find the tone of that survey beneath contempt. A survey has to be _NEUTRAL_ . If i went to ask 100 people: Choose A, or you will be shot, i wouldn't be surprised if a majority choose A. In the preface of the survey it is clearly
[Talk-de] to black_bike, Ropino, Merlin, MotLib and the others I can't make out
Thanks for the card. It took a long time to arrive, but thanks :-) Yours c. Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
On 20 Aug 2009, at 00:32, Jochen Topf wrote: On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 06:12:46PM -0700, SteveC wrote: But lets look at the real issue, Frederik. You're intensely jealous that your own firm, GeoFabrik, which you didn't bother to declare in your anti-CM email, has had little success compared to CloudMade. Your You probably shouldn't post things like this without talking to your lawyer. We are not going to sue you over this, but other companies might not like talk like this. Sorry, what would you sue me for? jealous to the point of stripping all references to me out of your book on OpenStreetMap. You don't want anyone who's not from Germany to Steve, please, if you lie, then lie in a way that can't be checked by looking in our book on page 164 in chapter 14.6 titled Karten von CloudMade (Maps from CloudMade). The first sentence says: Die englische Firma Cloudmade, zu deren Gründern der OpenStreetMap-Erfinder Steve Coast gehört, ... (The English company CloudMade, to whichs founders belongs the OpenStreetMap- Inventor Steve Coast, ...) (Sorry for the bad translation, I have tried to keep to the original.) This quote is from the 2nd Edition (ISBN 978-3-86541-320-8). Sorry if I don't have respect for people who lie and know it. Because Frederik any you have talked about this very issue already. Oh sorry, there is only one mention at the back, therefore it's ok. Why don't you remind everyone what page I was on in the first edition? But really it doesn't matter, your jealousy is well known. come to your German-only German SOTM your planning because you want your own little empire and fame. Where did you get this from? You and Frederik. Everybody is of course welcome to the conference we are planning. The conference language will be German, because thats the language that people here in Germany speak. I am sorry that this excludes a few billion people on this planet, but it includes the people in Germany who don't feel as comfortable with the English language. We already have an English language international conference (SOTM) and the one the German community is planning just caters to a different audience. So why don't you run an international SOTM? Yours c. Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
First I think you just breached the data protection act and are using data which even I don't have access to, but lets ignore that and the fact that Nick has actually been pushing to make the list more open. A list which only you, Mike and 80n have. I really wish we could just pay people in Kiev to do exactly what I say, but we can't. It's insulting to their integrity and intelligence to suggest that they simply become members of OSMF to vote for Nick or I. Everyone at CloudMade is encouraged to be a member of the Foundation. From me, to the ambassadors we had, to our executives to our developers. The majority of us have been members for some time. I don't know all the details as I don't deal with them on a daily basis but from my understanding is that this 'mass joining' was simply because they didn't have individual credit cards that would work from the Ukraine on paypal. To be clear, we've not told staff at CloudMade to vote for anyone. You clearly have no respect for Nick, me or anyone we employ in the Ukraine, but you could ask some of our London team to confirm this if you have any respect for them? We're in a very difficult position and don't always make the right choices. CloudMade has contributed tens of thousands of pounds in cash to the Foundation for things like sponsorship and servers. We've spent man years on coding work. Nick, me and many other in CloudMade spend far beyond 9-5 working to promote OSM and make it fly. But if we make a small mistake we're hung up to dry by people like Frederik as some kind of map-based Darth Vader figure. If we don't encourage people to join then we're not part of the community and engaged. If we do then you can interpret it as being a take over. So we walk a fine balancing act. That's just the way it is, and we try hard to make the right decisions. This is something we'll learn from. But I sincerely hope that the majority of people look at how much hard work we've put in and the good we've done for OSM despite a sometimes fractious community and the pot shots like this taken. From a practical point of view I have no idea what conspiracy we'd be trying to achieve anyway. If we really were deranged enough to try and 'take over' then firstly we could just register tens or hundreds of fake people with hotmail email addresses and avoid this. Second, I don't know what we'd be taking over. The data has very clear protections all over it to stop people taking it over and I want them only to be made stronger (not weaker Public Domain which is what Frederik wants). The Foundation has very little assets and I've put the last 5 years of my life in to making OSM better since I founded. It would be super dumb, gain me nothing and destroy my reputation and OSM to be Evil and do any of that. Anyway, the Ukraine has it's own strong community, just have a look at http://mapping.in.ua/ and I think you have your numbers wrong in assuming everyone in the Ukraine works for CloudMade. I and CloudMade are very open to learning from these kinds of hiccups and am all ears for how we can do better. I'd go so far as to suggest that maybe we could ask our Ukraine staff not to vote at all, but that would lack the same respect you don't have for them. But lets look at the real issue, Frederik. You're intensely jealous that your own firm, GeoFabrik, which you didn't bother to declare in your anti-CM email, has had little success compared to CloudMade. Your jealous to the point of stripping all references to me out of your book on OpenStreetMap. You don't want anyone who's not from Germany to come to your German-only German SOTM your planning because you want your own little empire and fame. I wouldn't normally point to all of that because I have a lot of respect for you and I want GeoFabrik, ITO World and all the other companies using OpenStreetMap to succeed. But you keep doing this stuff without getting any push back, and if you're going to attack people like this in public then you should declare the other side of the coin. We have a larger goal. OpenStreetMap is going to be the best map of the world and we need to work together to make it happen. Let's not squabble over this stuff because we're David right now and there is a Goliath in terms of TeleAtlas and NavTeq. We need mappers, the Foundation, the sysadmin team, developers, academia and companies to work together in an ecosystem to make it happen. Let's deal with each other in a more respectful way, don't automatically assume people are evil and assume that people are acting in good faith. That way, we can all work on a better map. I'm very contactable by anyone who has any concerns over this and encourage people to judge me and Nick on what we do and not what Frederik says. Feel free to phone me, IM or whatever. Details here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Steve Yours c. Steve
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 8 Jul 2009, at 11:55, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, SteveC wrote: Well what else would they say, it's the only license they have that even applies. If you asked Microsoft what OS you should use, what do you think they would say? The other problem is they've made the leap from just providing licenses to taking a moral stance against anything but PD for data. All data in the entire world. That's nuts. I'm glad we have settled that Creative Commons officially suggested to us that we use CC0 for OpenStreetMap, rather than this just being a personal opinion of an individual as you seemed to suggest earlier. Um, no, I don't think I've seen it. do you have a link? (Schoen, dass wir feststellen koennen: Creative Commons hat uns offiziell empfholen, ihre CC0-Lizenz fuer OSM zu nutzen; es handelte sich dabei nicht um eine Einzelmeinung, wie Du zuvor angedeutet hattest.) Also, there is no doubt that Creative Commons are quite well respected in the Free and Open community and have in the past been champions of the share-alike idea. (Ausserdem besteht kein Zweifel daran, dass Creative Commons in der Freien und Offenen community relativ gut angesehen sind und in der Vergangenheit durchaus auch die Share-Alike-Idee vertreten haben.) That's the only thing I wanted clearly said. Whether CC say what they say because they believe it is the best thing to do in the interests of the Free and Open community, or whether they just do so out of fear of being obliterated, or because they have a satanic portal in their headquarters, is something that everyone can think about for themselves. (Das ist alles, was ich klargestellt haben wollte. Ob CC das agen, weil sie glauben, es ist das beste fuer die Freie und Offene community, oder weil sie einfach nur Angst haben, ueberfluessig zuwerden, oder weil sie ein satanisches Portal im Keller haben, darueber kann sich jeder ja selber Gedanken machen.) (Hintergrund fuer talk-de: Wenn irgendjemand SteveC wegen irgendwas niedere Motive unterstellt, sagt er gern sowas wie Jaja, ich habe ein satanisches Portal im Keller, um die Vorwuerfe ins Laecherliche zu ziehen - da konnte ich nicht widerstehen, hier, wo er Creative Commons niedere Motive unterstellt, ebenso zu erwidern.) Bye Frederik ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 8 Jul 2009, at 12:38, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, SteveC wrote: I'm glad we have settled that Creative Commons officially suggested to us that we use CC0 for OpenStreetMap, rather than this just being a personal opinion of an individual as you seemed to suggest earlier. Um, no, I don't think I've seen it. do you have a link? http://www.sciencecommons.org/resources/readingroom/comments-on-odbl oh that, you confused me because you keep saying CC but it's actually SC, which has a very different mandate which you're trying to turn around to what CC does. I too agree that science data that I pay my taxes for universities to produce should be in the public domain. Not sure how that applies to us. I hope that suffices to refresh any lost memory ;-) I don't need to remember emails I wrote 18 months ago when I have an army of people out there trying to use them as proof of this or that. Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Ticket für SOTM
The google translation for this is unusable, let me know if I can help. Best Steve On 7 Jul 2009, at 09:48, Claudius wrote: Sollte noch jemand ein Ticket für die SOTM benötigen. Bitte hier melden, muss meines leider abgeben. Claudius ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 6 Jul 2009, at 10:45, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, SteveC wrote: I was told though that I was taken out of the second edition of the book, is that right? I remember I was mentioned fairy up front in the first edition. We have a section on CloudMade (p.164) where we say that one of the CloudMade founders is Steve Coast, inventor of OpenStreetMap. (Es gibt einen Abschnitt ueber CloudMade (S. 164) wo wir schreiben, dass zu den CloudMade-Gruendern auch der OSM-Erfinder Steve Coast gehoert.) Dear oh dear. I think what you meant to say is that Jon Wilbanks, a guy from from Science Commons, thinks we should use it, and he also thinks every database in the whole world should use it? Do you think I should ask Creative Commons for a statement, and do you have reason to believe they will say oh sorry, John Wilbanks just talks bullshit? If I remember correctly, Thinh Nguyen has, in his official Creative Commons capacity, basically re-iterated what John Wilbanks has said. (Denkst Du, ich sollte Creative Commons danach fragen, und gibt es einen Grund, anzunehmen, dass sie dann sagen oh, sorry, John Wilbanks redet Mist? Wenn ich mich recht erinnere, hat Thing Nguyen als offizieller Creative Commons-Vertreter im Grunde genau das gleiche wie John Wilbanks gesagt.) Well what else would they say, it's the only license they have that even applies. If you asked Microsoft what OS you should use, what do you think they would say? The other problem is they've made the leap from just providing licenses to taking a moral stance against anything but PD for data. All data in the entire world. That's nuts. Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 4 Jul 2009, at 19:03, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hallo Tirkon, Zunächst einmal nehme ich an, dass es sich bei SteveC um den Gründer des OSM Projektes Steve Cost handelt. Steve Coast. Es drängt sich mir der Eindruck auf, dass hier ein Zwist zwischen besagtem SteveC als Vertreter des UK-OSM und Vertretern der deutschen OSM handelt, insbesondere den inzwischen durch CCC Podcast und Kongress sowie als Schreiber des OSM-Buches prominent gewordenem Frederik Ramm und Jochen Topf. Das ist ganz bestimmt eine unzulaessige Vereinfachung. Zunaechst einmal vertritt SteveC die OSM Foundation, die fuer OSM ingesamt zustaendig ist und nicht nur fuer UK. (SteveC selbst lebt inzwischen in Kalifornien, und auch noch zwei andere OSMF-Vorstandmitglieder sowie geschaetzt 60-70% der Mitglieder sind ausserhalb Grossbritanniens.) Zusaetzlich ist Steve (zusammen mit Nick Black, der im Vorstand der OSMF fuer die SOTM-Konferenz und die nationalen OSMF-Untergruppen zustaendig ist), Gruender und Anteilseigner der Firma CloudMade. Ich ganz persoenlich habe in vielen Dingen eine andere Meinung als SteveC, aber in ebensovielen Dingen gehe ich mit ihm auch voellig konform, und wenn wir uns ueber den Weg laufen, trinken wir fuer gewoehnlich ein paar Biere zusammen. Hier von einem Zwist zu reden, ist nicht angebracht. I've read through this thread with the help of translation tools, and yes I have beers and we get on. I was told though that I was taken out of the second edition of the book, is that right? I remember I was mentioned fairy up front in the first edition. Creative Commons, deren Lizenzen ja eigentlich einen hohen Stellenwert in der freien Community besitzen, haben explizit empfohlen, dass OpenStreetMap ihre CC0-Lizenz (also praktisch PD) benutzen soll. Die OSMF hat diesen Vorschlag relativ barsch zurueckgewiesen und sich eine Einmischung verbeten. I'm going by this translation Creative Commons, whose license is actually a high priority in the free community possess, have explicitly recommended that OpenStreetMap their CC0 license (ie practically PD) should use. The OSMF This proposal has been rejected and a relatively harsh one Verbeten interference. I think what you meant to say is that Jon Wilbanks, a guy from from Science Commons, thinks we should use it, and he also thinks every database in the whole world should use it? Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 2 Jul 2009, at 07:37, Jochen Topf wrote: On Wed, Jul 01, 2009 at 01:55:43PM +0100, SteveC wrote: The license is interesting, because if you think about it and I was evil then I would join the people who like the public domain. Because then it would be much easier for my company, and others, to do what they liked with the data and kill OSM. Instead we have taken the harder path because I think it is much better for the long term survival and health of the project to have a reciprocal license. A great! We are falling back into medieval language now. Public domain is evil. Its not an option we can seriously discuss. Its evil and everbody who is for public domain is evil. End of discussion. Glad we cleared that up. As you know, I didn't say that. Weren't you trying to get more communication going? Yeah and you just killed it, well done. Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 1 Jul 2009, at 15:02, Peter Dörrie wrote: We have asked for help with this many times. For example last year I think Mikel Maron put up money and a free SOTM ticket to anyone who would blog regularly on OSM news but nobody did. I can try again. I think this shows a core problem: The OSM community is developing a lighting speed. I for my part didn't know of this offer even though I became an ative part of OSM around the last SOTM. So it is important to keep information available in a mid to longterm. And I don't think that having a archived mailing list is keeping something available. Agreed. There are things we try that are ahead of their time, that we should come back to. Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 2 Jul 2009, at 08:39, dgdg wrote: Verstehe ich alles - bei kommerziellen Konferenzen. Da darf das gerne auch mal einen Tausender pro Tag kosten - zahlt sowieso die Firma. Aber 100 Euro sind für den ambitionierten Hobby-Mapper eben schon zuviel und da darf man sich nicht wundern, wenn irgendwann nur noch die Abgesandten von Google, Tele-Atlas und CloudMade ;-) in den entsprechenden Gremien sitzen - und spätestens dann kostet die Teilnahme an den Konferenzen wirklich vierstellig. Dann macht doch einen Studententarif/Privattarif mit Selbstverpflegung. I understand everything - from commercial conferences. As may be happy also a one thousand times per day cost - the company will pay anyway. But 100 euros is for the ambitious hobby mappers just now too much and since one should not be surprised if at some point only the Representatives from Google, Tele-Atlas and in the CloudMade ;-) relevant bodies sit - and then at least cost to Participation in the conferences really four. Then it makes a student fare / tariff with private Self-catering. We discussed pricing at the SOTM meeting yesterday. What we can offer for people who think that 75 or 100 Euro is too much are some steeply discounted and free tickets if you help out with things like registrations and/or do a lightning talk. If anyone is interested please drop me a line. Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 2 Jul 2009, at 09:12, Peter Dörrie wrote: 2009/7/2 dgdg o...@fronhausen.com Verstehe ich alles - bei kommerziellen Konferenzen. Da darf das gerne auch mal einen Tausender pro Tag kosten - zahlt sowieso die Firma. Aber 100 Euro sind für den ambitionierten Hobby-Mapper eben schon zuviel und da darf man sich nicht wundern, wenn irgendwann nur noch die Abgesandten von Google, Tele-Atlas und CloudMade ;-) in den entsprechenden Gremien sitzen - und spätestens dann kostet die Teilnahme an den Konferenzen wirklich vierstellig. Dann macht doch einen Studententarif/Privattarif mit Selbstverpflegung. Detlef Also ich würde diesen Punkt langsam mal fallen lassen. Natürlich wäre es schön, wenn die Tickets für Studenten nur die Hälfte kosten würden. Aber der ambitionierte Hobby Mapper ist ja unter Umständen kein Student. Also dann auch Rabatte für Harz IV Empfänger? Und für Alleinerziehende? Das endet nur darin, dass andere Gruppen dann erheblich mehr bezahlen müssen. Außerdem: Ich bin Student und wenn ich auf eine mehrtägige Konferenz fahre, dann sind hundert Euro durchaus normal (und ja, dass ist der Studenten-Rabatt). Ich finde hundert Euro durchaus angemessen. Es gab ja auch viele Möglichkeiten ein Ticket umsonst zu bekommen (mir fällt da spontan der Aufruf ein, sich an der Video-Aufzeichnung der Vorträge zu beteiligen). Yes - that's another example of helping out and getting in more cheaply/free because of it Grüße, Peter ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 2 Jul 2009, at 11:10, Frederik Ramm wrote: We had made it quite clear to you that the German community will happily enter into an agreement with OSMF and will also agree to return whatever it gained from that agreement if cooperation should stop at a later point in time, but that we would not hand over assets like the openstreetmap.de domain which we have independently of OSMF. (Wir haben klargestellt, dass die deutsche Community sicher eine Vereinbarung mit der OSMF eingehen wuerde und dass es auch kein Problem waere, alles, was die Community aufgrund dieser Vereinbarung erhaelt, nach einem eventuellen Ende der Vereinbarung zurueckzugeben, aber Dinge wie die openstreetmap.de-Domain, die wir unabhaengig von der OSMF besitzen, wuerden wir natuerlich nicht zurueckgeben.) Out of interest - why is this? If you follow that logic then I should keep the trademarks and domain names I owned also? Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 2 Jul 2009, at 13:21, Tobias Wendorff wrote: SteveC schrieb: Out of interest - why is this? If you follow that logic then I should keep the trademarks and domain names I owned also? Seems like EvilStevil breaks down OSM to trademarks, doesn't he? Of course ... he also registered the OSM-logo as a trademark in UK. What on earth are you talking about? I registered them because it was quicker, and the foundation now owns them. Stop spreading FUD. And, stop thinking it's bad for me to register something but totally ok for you to. Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 2 Jul 2009, at 14:02, Tobias Wendorff wrote: M.Gehling schrieb: und das ist auch richtig so. ( Er hat es für die osmf registriert ? ) _Er_ hat es registriert - das ist genau der Punkt: http://www.ipo.gov.uk/t-find-number?trademark=2500155 Es läuft auf ihn als natürliche Person und nicht auf die OSMF. Mir ist kein Europäisches Land bekannt, in dem eine juristische Person keine Marke anmelden kann. Wieso hat also die OSMF das Logo nicht angemeldet? I've signed something like 3 pieces of paper to do it, and now I have to sign even more to make it official. I'm seriously thinking of signing this next one in front of 200 people at SOTM so I have witnesses! But, and this is the central point, the useful trademarks for 'openstreetmap' fell through because they're too descriptive. They're not even valid. Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 2 Jul 2009, at 14:19, Tobias Wendorff wrote: SteveC schrieb: But, and this is the central point, the useful trademarks for 'openstreetmap' fell through because they're too descriptive. They're not even valid. Why does it [1] say Registered and not declined? Because that's the logo one and not the word one. Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
Essentially this seems to come down to two things 1) You're unhappy I registered them in my name 2) You're unhappy it didn't get transferred within some short period of time 1 - Well, mea culpa[1]. It was just quicker and I didn't really think about it 2 - I think you should take a long look at the minutes of the various meetings, board and working groups, and you'll find many things that stay there from meeting to meeting because people are volunteers and don't have the time. In fact one of the reasons the logo still isn't 100% transferred isn't my fault, it's other board members being busy and not doing the paperwork. You will find Grant has been continuously prodding people to fix it. What do you want Jochen? An apology? I apologise. I shouldn't have done it in my name, and I should have got it transferred quicker. But it got done. If I could go back in time and avoid all this bullshit, I would. But I've got to tell you that when you try this character assassination[2] and you disregard on the one hand inventing osm, inventing the api, 4-500 talks around the world, inventing mapping parties, inventing nodes, ways, segments (remember them?), getting the OSMF off the ground, running various working groups, writing the first 4 versions of the API, pouring resources from cloudmade to help OSM... etc etc etc and when you disregard all that and focus on the one fact that the trademark transfer didn't happen quickly enough, when you guys won't even trust the OSMF with the .de domain... you frankly just look jealous that you wanted to have founded it all, because I can't figure out what else would motivate you to be so un-balanced all time? Best Steve [1] - http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mea_culpa [2] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_assassination On 2 Jul 2009, at 15:51, Jochen Topf wrote: On Thu, Jul 02, 2009 at 01:23:32PM +0100, SteveC wrote: On 2 Jul 2009, at 13:21, Tobias Wendorff wrote: SteveC schrieb: Out of interest - why is this? If you follow that logic then I should keep the trademarks and domain names I owned also? Seems like EvilStevil breaks down OSM to trademarks, doesn't he? Of course ... he also registered the OSM-logo as a trademark in UK. What on earth are you talking about? I registered them because it was quicker, and the foundation now owns them. Stop spreading FUD. Are we talking about the domains or the trademarks? The domains you registered long ago privately because that was before an OSMF existed, which is totally ok. In this mail in July 2007 you said you would transfer them to OSMF the next month: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2007-July/015088.html In fact you did only do this after prompting at the end of 2008. See this board meeting minutes under point 4: http://foundation.openstreetmap.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/20081125.pdf And this one again under point 4: http://foundation.openstreetmap.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/ Now about the trademark: You applied for the trademark in your own name. You argue you did that because it was quicker, but don't explain why it is quicker to do this in your own name instead of OSMFs. This claim is especially doubious, because the issue came up in the board meeting of 2007-11-15, then in almost every board meeting this subject was mentioned as beeing on your todo list. (See http://foundation.openstreetmap.org/officers-board/board-meeting-minutes/ where I count 9 mentionings of this topic.) So if you were that much in a hurry, why did it take almost a year without much action? I assume you told the board at some point that you had the application under your own name. The trademark application was subsequently transferred to OSMF. (See the above mentioned two board meeting minutes again under point 4 for this.) And, stop thinking it's bad for me to register something but totally ok for you to. Well there is the issue of you beeing the chairman of the board of directors of OSMF. So for you registering a domain or a trademark in your own name there is a definite conflict of interest. For Joe Mapper there isn't. The board meeting minutes are not really clear on what your assignment was. It was at least to do research and report back to the board. Maybe even to get the trademark for OSMF. You did the research and then got the trademarks for yourself. Am I the only one to think there is a huge conflict of interest here? At least an enormous error in judgment? But, as you say, the domains and trademark are with the foundation now, so all ended well and we can go on to other topics. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 2 Jul 2009, at 15:10, Jochen Topf wrote: On Thu, Jul 02, 2009 at 12:57:10PM +0100, SteveC wrote: On 2 Jul 2009, at 07:37, Jochen Topf wrote: On Wed, Jul 01, 2009 at 01:55:43PM +0100, SteveC wrote: The license is interesting, because if you think about it and I was evil then I would join the people who like the public domain. Because then it would be much easier for my company, and others, to do what they liked with the data and kill OSM. Instead we have taken the harder path because I think it is much better for the long term survival and health of the project to have a reciprocal license. A great! We are falling back into medieval language now. Public domain is evil. Its not an option we can seriously discuss. Its evil and everbody who is for public domain is evil. End of discussion. Glad we cleared that up. As you know, I didn't say that. Weren't you trying to get more communication going? Yeah and you just killed it, well done. I am sorry. I might have been confused by emails from you such as these: http://www.mail-archive.com/legal-t...@openstreetmap.org/msg00805.html http://www.mail-archive.com/t...@openstreetmap.org/msg10052.html That reflects my personal opinion that PD would be wrong for OSM. That doesn't reflect everyone in the legal working group, the fact that there are votes on this stuff, etc. Of course my logic was backwards and misrepresented what you were saying and I apologize for that. So I'll try again: What you are saying is that if you were evil you would be for PD, Almost - I'm saying that people thought I was evil for pushing ODBL, but if I was really Evil and that was my motivation then it would be better for me to push PD so I could be evil with the data. but as you are not evil you might still be for PD and there might actually be valid reasons for beeing in favour of public domain Yes of course there are valid reasons. It's simpler for example. I also like the example that the BSD UNIX TCP/IP stack was the most used stack in the world because Microsoft could take it and incorporate it in to windows because it was BSD licensed, but they could not take other GPLd stacks. So in a way it had more impact than the 'more free' (from some perspective) Linux TCP/IP stack. and we should discuss them on an equal footing with going with the ODBL? I think we already have, but we'd just be re-iterating the arguments. I continue to think that if OSM went PD, then I or Google or whoever will just take the data and improve it and not give back. OSM would always be the slightly worse map than everyone else. My personal feeling is that OSM should be the best map of the world and PD would give that away. Like I said in the email you pointed to, if you fork OSM with a PD version, then OSM will just take all of your edits and put them in it's reciprocal version, or someone else will. I can tell you a lot of companies would love to relegate OSM to a cheap way for them to fix the map. It would be a dream come true for Tele Atlas to just take our data and not give anything back, and just use us as a bug fixing service. I think we can be so much more. Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 1 Jul 2009, at 12:44, pirrifor...@web.de wrote: I never participate in any mailing list discussion, but seeing the communication campaign for the new license and this project being so important for me i'll break my rule. Let me first thank you for the brilliant idea of OSM which for me and surely for many others has made a dream come through. cool thanks Having said this I would like to comment on three issues which were mentioned in this thread: a) SOTM Is is not ok to slap students with very little money by pretending that the conference is not expensive. I had no idea he was a student. I don't think I 'slapped' him. And, I'm not pretending it's not expensive - it really is not that expensive compared to other conferences and the maths just work out paying for the venue and food minus the sponsorship that we need to charge people. That said it is my personal opinion as a student not long ago that we should have a student discount. I will bring this up at the meeting of the SOTM working group today and see what and why this was decided. Please don't think this is all on purpose or something because we hate german students, it just hasn't come up to the best of my knowledge. You yourself admit that it is expensive internally by giving discounts for founding members i.e. the interest group (I don't like the term foundation in this This is totally new to me I don't know of any such discount. I don't know whay you're talking about. The only thing we have is that the people who are running it might get in without paying, because we worked so hard to make it happen. context). Also I remember much bigger Linux events which were free. The very topic is that the interest group is financing the management of the project by the mappers who already do the work! How come that one of the biggest crowdsourcing ventures in the internet world can't be financed by IBM, Bertelsman foundation, Royal geographic society or by Wikipedia. (No, I won't organize conferences or look for sponsors. I' am sitting here in Senegal nearly at the end of the world) Well, there are many ways to help and of course letting me know this stuff helps. b) License All problems with the license can be backtracked to the value of the information collected and the wish to extend the commercial use. That is ok with with me. What is not ok is that the license permits keeping the information in my bank safe and only distribute it for a reasonable production fee. Again: Such a big project has to prescribe the use of the internet for each and every bit of information, so that that the information stays freely accessible and usable. You've confused me here. The new license I don't think extends commercial use, it just makes it clearer. I don't understand the second half about you bank. The license excludes any patent and branding aspects (2.3). Maybe that is necessary. I will however be assured that i always can have free access and and use of the information without getting to know that the information is free but the data interface is patented and the data model is branded. Yes I know, nobody has ever thought of, but Michael Jackson never thought of selling his furniture and Bjön Borg never meant to sell his trophy's. Again I'm confused, you seem concerned about the license interacting with potential patents? c) communication I went to the website of the interest group and read that the last minutes of meeting date form april. If that is not in contradiction to the things said in this thread than at least there is lot of room for improvement to insert the discussion process in the interest group into the news and blogs of OSM. I'm sorry confused again, which interest group? What minutes? If you could give me links and quotes that would help. Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 30 Jun 2009, at 16:24, Rotbarsch wrote: Hi Steve, hallo zusammen! Zitat von SteveC st...@asklater.com: One thing I noticed a lot everywhere though was some misunderstandings on what the foundation, the OSMF, are doing. It feels a little like FUD[1]. T Eine Sache, die ich oft vorfanf, waren Missverständnisse über die Arbeit der T Foundation. Es fühlte sich teilweise etwas an wie eine Schmutzkampagne. von einer Schmutzkampagne gegen die OSMF habe ich nichts mitbekommen. Das würde ja heißen, dass jemand bewusst und planmäßig die Foundation schlecht macht. Ich denke, dass schon Vorbehalte gegen die Foundation bestehen, die Du aber vielleicht ein Bißchen zerschlagen kannst, was Du ja auch vorhast. I did not recognize something like a FUD campaign against OSMF. That would mean that somone wants and plans to make the public opinion of the Foundation bad on purpose. I think there are reserves against the foundation, but it might come out that you make them less hard by this discussion, like you planed. Oh I didn't mean to imply there was a 'campaign', only that FUD naturally comes about when there is not enough communication. Ein Aspekt ist, dass Du drei Rollen in OSM besetzt. Nicht jede Deiner Rollen kann dieselben Ziele haben. Zunächst bist Du Gründer von OSM, was Dich zu soetwas wie ein Star für uns macht. Zweitens bist Du Leiter eines Unternehmens, dass viel Geld bekommen hat um noch mehr Geld damit zu verdienen, wobei OSM-Knowhow -Daten benutzt werden sollen. Dies macht Dich zu einer Person, auf die wir ein Auge werfen. Drittens bist Du Vostandsmitglied in der OSMF, einer Organisation, die für sich in Anspruch nimmt, für OSM als ganzes zu sprechen. In der letzten Rolle würden wir Dir als Gründer von OSM grundsätzlich vertrauen... One thing is, that you have three roles in OSM. Not each of your roles can have the same goals. First you are founder of OSM for which you are something like a star for us. Second you are leader of a company, which gets a lot of money to make more money using OSM knowledge and OSM data, which makes you a guy where we keep having an eye on. Third you are board-member of the OSMF, an organisation that claims to speak for OSM. In the last role we would usually trust you as you are the founder of OSM... I understand there is FUD about my roles, and what I find interesting is that there have never been specific claims made about anything I might have done wrong based on the multiple roles. I'd like to say a couple of things though on those roles. The founder thing - it is getting strange when people ask to take my picture :-) The company - we pour a *lot* of resources in to OSM to help it grow. We are the biggest sponsor of SOTM, we sponsored a lot of money for the server. We pay people to work on API 0.6. We host events. We run many mapping parties in the UK and the USA. We try to be as open and community friendly as possible. The OSMF - To suggest it is only I running things is very wrong. I am on the board and I simply could not unilaterally make decisions. Whenever something comes up where I may have a conflict of interest I recuse myself, but this happens pretty rarely. The board has made statements in the past of their confidence in me to not be evil. Also, a lot of the work is not done by me, or the board. It is done by working groups, each is very active with many people and I don't think they feel I am a dictator or run things. There have been a couple of things like it was better for the OSMF to own the domains, so I gave them to the OSMF. The trademarks such as they are, too. The license is interesting, because if you think about it and I was evil then I would join the people who like the public domain. Because then it would be much easier for my company, and others, to do what they liked with the data and kill OSM. Instead we have taken the harder path because I think it is much better for the long term survival and health of the project to have a reciprocal license. Ich bin mir nicht sicher, ob es jemanden geben könnte, der diese Rollen (speziell die zweite und dritte) sauber trennen könnte. Kannst Du es? Warum? I am not sure at all if it would be possible for anyone to sperate the roles (especially the second and third) tidy. Is it for you? Why? Well many people have different roles. For example Eric Schmidt is on the board of Apple and co-CEO of Google. At times he recuses himself, say when Apple discusses the iPhone. I have done this, as I said, before but it is rare because the issues do not come up. If you have a specific thing you think I have done wrong, please tell me and I will fix it. Verstehe bitte, dass wir uns unwohl fühlen, wenn jemand zu uns sagt: Wenn Du die deutsche Sektion der OSMF werden möchtest, musst Du unterschreiben, dass Du alle URLs, alle Mailinglisten und alles was Du aufgebaut hast an die OSMF abgeben musst, wennn Du eines
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 30 Jun 2009, at 16:10, Sebastian Hohmann wrote: SteveC schrieb: On 30 Jun 2009, at 10:42, Claudius wrote: Am 30.06.2009 10:02, SteveC: Lizenz: Warum musste die Lizenz in Rekortzeit durchgeboxt werden? License: Why had the license in Rekortzeit durchgeboxt be? I'm sorry the translation has broken down here, can someone provide a better translation? The original question was: Why had the license to be pushed in such a short timeframe? Thanks for the translation. To the original author - what makes you think a process started in January 2008 is a short timeframe? Vermutlich aufgrund der sehr wenigen Informationen die man über die Jahre über den aktuellen Stand als 'Normal-Mapper' erhalten hat. Wenn man sich z.B. Mitte 2008 bei OSM angemeldet hat, hat man erst März 2009 das erste Mal von einer neuen Lizenz gehört. Mag sein dass es Informationen dazu gab, aber die meisten Mapper werden wohl kaum aktiv nach etwas suchen, von dem sie garnicht wissen dass es existiert. Vielleicht wäre es für die Zukunft sinnvoll einen (vielleicht monatlichen) Newsletter über die wichtigsten Entwicklungen OSM betreffend zu verschicken, damit auch neue Mapper nicht erst die Mailinglisten-Archive oder alte Blogeinträge durchgraben müssen. Schließlich ist sowas wie die Lizenz eine wichtige Sache. English: Probably due to the very little information that one received as a 'normal-mapper' over the years. For example, if you registered at OSM in the middle of 2008, you probably heard the first time in March 2009 about the new licence. There may have been information, but most mappers most likely won't search for something they don't even know exist. Maybe it would be sensible for the future to publish a (maybe monthly) newsletter containing the most important developments concerning OSM, so new mappers don't have to dig through the mailinglist archives or old blog entries. After all, the licence is an important matter. We have asked for help with this many times. For example last year I think Mikel Maron put up money and a free SOTM ticket to anyone who would blog regularly on OSM news but nobody did. I can try again. More specifically on just the license, we meet twice a week and we publish our minutes every week. If you have any questions about those please let me know. Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] TIGER in USA
I saw someone fixing TIGER data in the USA today with JOSM and I wondered does the German community know about this? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tiger_fixup In particular there are some key problems all over the USA - Joining up all the counties together: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_fixup/County_borders and also where TIGER thinks bridges are connected to the road they cross http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_fixup/Over_Connectedness I could not find these articles converted to German. Given how prolific the German mapping community is I was wondering if someone could translate these articles and I'm also interested in whether you find it interesting. Personally I find myself very addicted to fixing random places in the USA with aerial imagery all the time. Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 29 Jun 2009, at 18:05, Peter Dörrie wrote: Hi Steve, thanks for taking the time to keep in contact with communities from other countries. I personally think that it would be a great idea to hear from you (or others from the foundation) more frequently on the talk-de list. I am personally not very afraid that the whole license issue will turn up something bad. As you said, you are OSMers like us, so why should you implement something bad? But there is another topic, where involvement of you and OSMers from other countries would be greatly appreciated from my point of view. There have been some very lively discussions on this mailing list about the future of OSM regarding decision making processes and mapping standards. Maybe it is due to us being German, but it seems to me that many people feel that there should be some kind of formalised leadership in the mapping communities. I do not want to pitch any concrete idea myself, but I think that this is something which should be discussed intensively on an international level and that your opinion would be valued. What kind of leadership? What have been the sides of this debate? Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 29 Jun 2009, at 18:42, Torsten Breda wrote: Erst mal entschuldige ich mich, dass ich auf deutsch schreibe. Wie du aber gesagt hast gibt es Freiwillige, die das übersetzen können und wollen. Zunächst möchte ich sagen, dass ich es prima finde, dass du dich auf talk-de meldest. Ein guter Schritt. Du hast Misverständnisse bezüglich einiger Dinge angesprochen. Hierbei kann ich natürlich nur für mich sprechen, was diese Dinge angeht. Going by Google translate... Hier einige Gedanken: OSMF: Man hat den Eindruck, dass Deutschland nicht den Stellenwert hat, den verdient. Hier sind möglicherweise mehr Aktive, als in GB. Die Kartenabdeckung ist besser, es gibt mehr Presse und stärkere Kooperationen zwischen OSM und Firmen/Organisationen/Hochschulen und Behörden. Here are some ideas: OSMF: One has the impression that Germany is not the priority, the deserves. Here are probably more active than in GB. The Map coverage is better, there's more press and more Cooperation between OSM and companies / organizations / universities and Authorities. I'd say quite the opposite, we're very keen to engage every other country we can. Really the central barrier has been we didn't even think you'd like people coming on this list and using English. So please get involved, there are many ways from setting up a local chapter to helping on the working groups to running for a board position. State of the Map: Warum sind die Tickets so teuer? Kostet eine Konferenz wirklich so viel, dass es für einen Freizeitmapper uninteressant ist daran teilzunehmen? State of the Map: Why are tickets so expensive? Taste a conference really much that is uninteresting for a Freizeitmapper it should participate? I think Nick answered this. We have a working group who are mainly from the Netherlands and trying to keep costs down, but with the inclusion of food and stuff I think it's pretty cheap compared to most other conferences. I really hope many people from Germany can come. We are going to have translations I think too to try and make it easier. Server: Warum liegen, nachdem ein neuer Server von Spenden finanziert wurde, einige Server brach, obwohl einige Teilprojekte (zB Wiki, Suchfunktion, XAPI) dringend bessere Hardware benötigen? Server: Why are after a new server was financed by donations, some servers broke, although some sub-projects (eg, wiki, Search, xapi) urgently need better hardware? I totally agree. The server management has been a little hap hazard and not driven by needs. The donations process showed how we could get real funds for real hardware and we need to apply that to our other servers. I'm bringing this up at the next technical working group meeting. Lizenz: Warum musste die Lizenz in Rekortzeit durchgeboxt werden? License: Why had the license in Rekortzeit durchgeboxt be? I'm sorry the translation has broken down here, can someone provide a better translation? Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
Again from Google Translation On 29 Jun 2009, at 19:29, Markus wrote: Ja, das Image der OSMF ist ziemlich schlecht. Warum weiss ich nicht. Ich selbst habe keine eigene Erfahrung mit der OSMF. Was ich höre sind nur Gerüchte. Yes, the image of the OSMF is pretty bad. Why I do not know. I myself have no experience with the OSMF. What I hear are just rumors. I'm sad to hear there are rumors Eigentlich weiss ich gar nicht, wer oder was die OSMF ist und was sie tut und was deren Arbeit mit mir als Mapper und Mitarbeiter in OSM zu tun hat. Im Wiki gibt es keinen deutschsprachigen Artikel, und auf der Website der OSMF finde ich auch nichts in deutscher Sprache. Actually I do not know who or what the OSMF is and what it doing and what their working with me as a mapper and employees to OSM do. In the Wiki there is no German-language articles, and on the Website of the OSMF I find nothing in German. The OSMF manage a large number of things through working groups. These working groups make sure the State of the Map happens. It makes sure the license process happens. It makes sure the data in OSM is not copyrighted illegally. It makes sure the servers are working. These working groups meet for an hour about once a week or two. In the case of the legal working group there is a lot more work and we meet twice every week. We publish the minutes of all of these meetings. They are not all run by English people. The SOTM working group for example has many Dutch. The Legal working group has one Dutch person and one, Ulf, is from Germany I think. There are many opportunities to get involved. We would love it if there was help translating the website and minutes and so on in to German. The wiki does have German articles on it, see - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Hauptseite - and if you want more, it is a wiki and you can fix it. Ich denke, es würde OSM als Projekt, den Mappern und natürlich auch der OSMF sehr helfen, wenn es Euch gelingen würde dieses Image durch konkrete Handlungen deutlich zu verbessern. Die Grundlage ist offene Kommunikation und Verlässlichkeit. Persönlicher Kontakt ist immer wertvoll. Dabei sollte die OSMF nicht auf Vorschläge warten, sondern selbst kreativ aktiv werden. Ich denke, Deine Reise war ein guter Anfang! I think it would OSM as a project, the mappers and of course the OSMF greatly help if you would succeed in this image by concrete actions to significantly improve. The foundation is open Communication and reliability. Personal contact is always valuable. It should not OSMF wait for suggestions, but even creative action. I think your trip was a good start! The OSMF makes many concrete actions on a daily basis - the problem is communication to multiple lists. I have taken some steps such as the local-contacts list for passing announcements to local lists in their local language. This is a growing pain that the organisation must go through as it becomes more international and I welcome help. Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 29 Jun 2009, at 22:03, frank mohr wrote: Hello Steve SteveC wrote: Recently I had the luck and privilege to travel to some places in Germany, Italy and other countries and meet OSMers. This was very educational and I learnt a lot about how the different communities work in these places. There are some subtle differences between different countries and how OSM works in each one. Some have more mapping parties. Some have meetings like Stammtisch. Some have PR. Some organise on the mailing list. These are healthy differences. those differences exist also inside countries Yes! One thing I noticed a lot everywhere though was some misunderstandings on what the foundation, the OSMF, are doing. It feels a little like FUD[1]. i think the problem with OSMF is that the foundation is almost invisible for most mappers. (but that's how the foundation was initially planned, if i remember that right) Yes we could do better at communications. I think it was supposed to do many things and it achieved many of them. As it grows and becomes more international it's multi-language communications will be more visible. I think a start would be to post our minutes of working groups and the board to the local-contacts list for dissemination to each country list. What do you think? These misunderstandings related to the license, the servers, the working groups, the software, the State of the Map conference and other things. at some point i gave up to follow the discussion about the new license on the mailing list and wiki, but i still hope to get an update at the sotm. You certainly will! Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hello from England
On 30 Jun 2009, at 10:42, Claudius wrote: Am 30.06.2009 10:02, SteveC: Lizenz: Warum musste die Lizenz in Rekortzeit durchgeboxt werden? License: Why had the license in Rekortzeit durchgeboxt be? I'm sorry the translation has broken down here, can someone provide a better translation? The original question was: Why had the license to be pushed in such a short timeframe? Thanks for the translation. To the original author - what makes you think a process started in January 2008 is a short timeframe? Best Steve ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Hello from England
Hello So, first I apologise for writing in English. My German is very poor. Several people have volunteered to translate back and forth. Recently I had the luck and privilege to travel to some places in Germany, Italy and other countries and meet OSMers. This was very educational and I learnt a lot about how the different communities work in these places. There are some subtle differences between different countries and how OSM works in each one. Some have more mapping parties. Some have meetings like Stammtisch. Some have PR. Some organise on the mailing list. These are healthy differences. One thing I noticed a lot everywhere though was some misunderstandings on what the foundation, the OSMF, are doing. It feels a little like FUD[1]. These misunderstandings related to the license, the servers, the working groups, the software, the State of the Map conference and other things. What I quickly found was that these misunderstandings could be corrected easily with some discussion. It seems I and the Foundation have tried to include people from Germany many times, but we have not tried hard enough. This is partly because the volunteers from the foundation are already doing a lot of work and are busy we sometimes overlook things. It was a big surprise to me that people I met in Germany said I should post to talk-de@ in English and this would be a good thing for example. We have always assumed you would not like this in a big way. So I learnt something very important. So, in the spirit of communication I would like to say I am here to answer any open questions you have. You might have heard that I am Evil[2] or that we are changing license to be Evil like CDDB[3]. In general this is not the case, and we are OSMers like you who are trying to make it better, safer, more reliable and of course map more things. So please assume anything here you see as negative is not meant to be. Let me tell you a story about the Italian OSM.it conference I went to a few weeks ago. They had a lawyer do a talk about the new ODbL license to check that it was not Evil and what the points of it were. Half way through the lawyer said something like yes you should use it as it does basically the same as CC-BY-SA but it much better and applies to data better. There was visible relief and smiles from the audience when he said this. I just turned up to the conference without any warning and had nothing to do with it. I have cc'd a leading Italian OSMer, Simone, who can verify this. I don't think I will be able to bring a similar happiness to you all by talking on the mailing list here, but I hope it helps. So, can I answer any questions or do you have any comments? Best Steve [1] - http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_Uncertainty_and_Doubt [2] - http://fakestevec.blogspot.com/ [3] - http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gracenote (this could do with a better link I think?) ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
