Re: [Talk-de] Potlatch, die Siebenundzwölfigste
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 You didn't get my drift. I was NOT complaining about the software potlatch. Although I never dug into it I think the software might be a good piece of work, much better than what I could contribute as I am not a software developer. It's the novice users that abuse the tool not knowing what they are doing. And sometimes not even the novice users. But be it as it is, that's how the system works. I'll keep contributing as much as I can but I lack the time to repair what others broke. (Think of the OSM editors as mostly really well designed knives ... put in the hands of surgeons ... and murderers ... it's not the knife by itself that's doing the harm). With other editors you can experiment and, if you don't like what you made, discart it. Not all of those editors are manipulating the data in realtime. As far as I experienced, with potlatch it's hard to repair what you easily break. And that's the sad part of the story. Nuff said. Kind regards Ralf Richard Fairhurst wrote: Henry Loenwind wrote: So again it boils down to we don't want any teamwork, we only want people who randomly implement stuff on their own and if you want to talk about some aspect of OSM, you are not wanted here. No, it doesn't. Talking is great (like I say, especially if you talk to someone who can actually do something), but it's got past that stage now. I've seen several threads on talk-de complaining about Potlatch but not one single person actually committing patches. I'm genuinely puzzled - how do you think there are going to be any improvements if you don't muck in and help? Who do you think is actually going to do them? Even if you expect me to do it all, you haven't even been discussing it on a list that I can read. Richard ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQEVAwUBSJDRDjHU7t9XiJ++AQL87wf9FeSChCZ5PkTcsCjG9N9thOMb3MQTA8A1 VSJ+a3GQG+0/AHl0Rpuwo0X9+e7gKBtdwyS8gdCio1SfBGbkHfLYpe5NPpF3HuG7 S0bhtdIJRG/cN5W5eD5L5jKZ5HyfTlwbksoVAAbOykqJIkIZzkp7X64etj9KLA8k JURhV9O1PUJGk0hlPRmDPu21n+u9pIEdTXuCxC+ZoLmveF68eHly29ENhYyIndJ4 CwyQYlQtzyBQx1g+G4tkpayzDJ/OQm8bGtmtE8oQtZ8MN7tDdrYgApz3KzEEoZwa JwYONrS5WVkGBxSWEXp67fiCuFIBUM1zi59yA4ixBKPI8A4CUKKrww== =LCuP -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Potlatch, die Siebenundzwölfigste
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Henry, you found better words to say what I intended to. I guess, being frustrated after a cleanup job was not helpful when posting to a mailing list. Thanks. Ralf Henry Loenwind wrote: Richard Fairhurst wrote: So again it boils down to we don't want any teamwork, we only want people who randomly implement stuff on their own and if you want to talk about some aspect of OSM, you are not wanted here. No, it doesn't. Talking is great (like I say, especially if you talk to someone who can actually do something), but it's got past that stage now. Fair. [ shortened ] * Random people do random edits in random areas. Meaning, that with potlatch you can edit anywhere in the map, you don't have a home area. For all those people who have a home area, an area they build up and care for and spent hours to perfect it, the typical potlatch edit (three changes by a person who never before has edited something in that area) is very intrusive. cu Henry PS: My personal wishlist for potlatch with API 0.6 would be a big nice green(*) window saying potlatch is now going to submit the following changes into the database. Please review them and enter a comment into the edit field below. And one or two zoom levels more, I got some roundabouts here, that are uneditable in potlatch because you almost only see a grey area with some nodes ;) (*) green is a friendly colour, they say :-) ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQEVAwUBSJDTPTHU7t9XiJ++AQI/7wf7B4k5a6CgeRbz/6GCHBqrEK+y2vimWwLM lSX68y3WdFV0N2oia5yRi6W7bGZxj6o+g4zn2icIwjUGJiowcBhumWFSGH6yvkUQ cBlrC/GM3WqgIMkaQa8enyih3TNuYuU94KjBVj0WUfALoQs+CndTP0Lh3MchWCY9 tePU++M7oDG6x/mJU9vFl5G1z1kFMyiOezruL9BA6ZqBqAioDS35mUsedpibPXMh ik2fcgEG0qpr+oeIUUZ3YmpEsuPa5leY5j+KeiLDvRZL/WzmY7FDwzevEsiwtcyY W10kHU+19NJeDqj11R3gZYCOT/iCOVTbQOZaul+orwxuHhjxR7XnXg== =d+zp -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Potlatch, die Siebenundzwölfigste
Ralf Otmanns wrote: Potlatch mag sein ein tolles Tool sein, ein gut gemeintes Tool ... leider wissen vielleicht 2 % der Leute, die es verwenden, was sie da tun. Ihr wisst ja, dass gut gemeint das Gegentum zu gut ist. Der Rest sind wie 4jährige, denen Du Malstifte gibst und sie dann in ein frisch tapeziertes Zimmer sperrst. I get intensely frustrated when people complain about aspects of an open source project like OSM, but don't actually _do_ anything about it. All the code for Potlatch is public domain, freely available, in the main OSM repository, and in a well-known and well-documented language, with a free compiler. http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/applications/editors/potlatch/ Patches are welcome. If you submit patches to bugs you've noticed, that's great. If you submit patches to any of the outstanding trac tickets, that's _really_ great, because it means I can spend less time on these and more time improving usability - such as the online help feature planned for Potlatch 1.0. For example, you could fix http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/954, which is really difficult for me to do because I don't actually have a German keyboard. If someone else saves me an afternoon hacking on that, the online help gets one afternoon nearer. Maybe you can't program. That's fine. There are still a lot of ways in which you can help. Several people on this list have put a lot of time into localising Potlatch and improving the German-language docs on the wiki, and I'm enormously grateful to them. Why not create a video screencast in your native language, showing newbies how to use Potlatch? If you were to upload it to YouTube I could perhaps even use their API to integrate it into Potlatch, so that new users could click to see the tutorial before they start. If you feel there are things about Potlatch that need improving, then come and help. There are only 24 hours in the day, I can't do it all myself. Don't just sit here and whinge. Particularly, at least have the common courtesy to cc: your complaints to the developer, rather than bitching off behind his back in a language which he doesn't understand (except via Google Translate ;) ) and on a list which he very rarely reads. Oh, and 2%? Come on, you only weaken your case with such utterly absurd exaggerations. As a _mapper_ I'm offended by your suggestion that I'm 98% likely not to know what I'm doing, simply because of my choice of editor. Richard ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Potlatch, die Siebenundzwölfigste
Richard Fairhurst wrote: I get intensely frustrated when people complain about aspects of an open source project like OSM, but don't actually _do_ anything about it. So again it boils down to we don't want any teamwork, we only want people who randomly implement stuff on their own and if you want to talk about some aspect of OSM, you are not wanted here. Funny, I always hated the part of my job about discussing ideas with the team first instead of just implementing them. Past tense. cu Henry ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Potlatch, die Siebenundzwölfigste
Hi, No, it doesn't. Talking is great (like I say, especially if you talk to someone who can actually do something), but it's got past that stage now. I think the original poster was not complaining about any particular aspect of Potlatch the software that could be improved, even if he were a Flash programmer. I think this is just the umpteenth instance of we don't want any more newbies in our project ... or at least I don't want them modify MY data. Newbies tend to make mistakes and they tend to use Potlatch. It is not Potlatch that induces mistakes. My take is that we need newbies because if we'd stop growing, or even switch to linear growth, we'll never complete the earth in my lifetime. But to those who are content with having completed their village, this might not seem such an important goal. I also refuse to discuss this further because it has been discussed to death and back already. Bye Frederik ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Potlatch, die Siebenundzwölfigste
Richard Fairhurst wrote: So again it boils down to we don't want any teamwork, we only want people who randomly implement stuff on their own and if you want to talk about some aspect of OSM, you are not wanted here. No, it doesn't. Talking is great (like I say, especially if you talk to someone who can actually do something), but it's got past that stage now. Fair. I've seen several threads on talk-de complaining about Potlatch but not one single person actually committing patches. I'm genuinely puzzled - how do you think there are going to be any improvements if you don't muck in and help? Who do you think is actually going to do The single problem with all threads so far is, that they ended nowhere. The people who started them got chased away, any suggestions got flamewared instead of discussed, and so on. Until now, nobody came up with the one-big-answer-that-solves-all. Some good initial ideas came up, but without constructive discussion, they quickly died. Some were killed by the API-0.6-will-have-changesets hammer, some with the the-developer-will-never-implement-that axe. Oh, and quite often we had the that-would-kill-the-purpose-of-potlatch guillotine... I see 4 major problem areas with potlatch: * New users don't know realize that they change the live data. The new popup window and the start/play buttons helped, but we all know people will click anything if that helps them not reading any text. Also the map not insta-showing their changes helps here. * New users don't know how to use potlatch. Having few buttons on-screen makes a friendly UI, but it doesn't help users to realize the full potential of a tool. Together with #1, we get the oops, that was a mistake, close the browser window and restart-syndrome---that works well with e.g. Wikipedia, but not potlatch. * potlatch doesn't catch common errors, like not connecting ways or ways going A-B-A. I think someone who actually had to cleanup after a potlatch user can tell you more about this one. * potlatch does not tell the user what changes are applied. So people can, e.g., move a way without even realizing they did. There is a fifth problem, but that is not really a software problem: * Random people do random edits in random areas. Meaning, that with potlatch you can edit anywhere in the map, you don't have a home area. For all those people who have a home area, an area they build up and care for and spent hours to perfect it, the typical potlatch edit (three changes by a person who never before has edited something in that area) is very intrusive. cu Henry PS: My personal wishlist for potlatch with API 0.6 would be a big nice green(*) window saying potlatch is now going to submit the following changes into the database. Please review them and enter a comment into the edit field below. And one or two zoom levels more, I got some roundabouts here, that are uneditable in potlatch because you almost only see a grey area with some nodes ;) (*) green is a friendly colour, they say :-) ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Potlatch, die Siebenundzwölfigste
Hi Richard Am Dienstag, 29. Juli 2008 12:38:53 schrieb Richard Fairhurst: I've seen several threads on talk-de complaining about Potlatch but not one single person actually committing patches. I think that most people writing in talk-de are using josm, and so potlatch is not on their focus. The only moment when they get in touch with potlatch is when editing the osm-data with josm and seeing the editor string. Another fact is, that potlatch is an instant editing tool, which rookies seems to prefer. So complaining about potlatch could mean complainig about rookies and theire way of editing osm data. Rookies using josm could also harm existing data. It seems that they frequently don't use the download button before entering new data. As a konsequence some ways are uploaded double. Regarding potlatch rookies seem to prefer working in lower zoom levels. So it often happens, that new ways are not proper conected to existing ones. I'm not sure of how to prevent the rookies from doing so. May be a zoom level depend snap-in function? (not knowing if such thing is still implemented but to fine adjusted). I'm genuinely puzzled - how do you think there are going to be any improvements if you don't muck in and help? Who do you think is actually going to do them? Even if you expect me to do it all, you haven't even been discussing it on a list that I can read. Take it easy. You are the man which catches the walk-in customers, and our task would be to teach them how to use the different osm toolsets. :-) Cheers Andreas ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Potlatch, die Siebenundzwölfigste
On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:52:24PM +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, No, it doesn't. Talking is great (like I say, especially if you talk to someone who can actually do something), but it's got past that stage now. I think the original poster was not complaining about any particular aspect of Potlatch the software that could be improved, even if he were a Flash programmer. I think this is just the umpteenth instance of we don't want any more newbies in our project ... or at least I don't want them modify MY data. Newbies tend to make mistakes and they tend to use Potlatch. It is not Potlatch that induces mistakes. I dont think anyone wants to exclude newbies - Letting others modify my data is a hard task to actually watch at least when you know better about the area but thats life - get over it. One has to tell himeself that this leads to a better map in the end. I have watched/read some of the other potlatch bashing and i have seen it happing in the area i feel home too. Potlatch is the right tool for the right audience - it brings the entry level to a point where my mum and dad could make good maps. On the other end i think it makes it a little too easy to trash data - i havent got any real ideas to make it harder to trash data and easier to create correct new ones - probably we should get Steve Jobs to look over it :). Flo -- Florian Lohoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] +49-171-2280134 Those who would give up a little freedom to get a little security shall soon have neither - Benjamin Franklin signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Potlatch, die Siebenundzwölfigste
Ralf Oltmanns schrieb: Wann endlich wird es eine Qualitätskontrolle geben, die verhindert, dass Potlatcher einem die ganze Arbeit kaputtmachen? Kommunikation. Nicht ohne Grund erfordert Potlatch dass man seine edits public schaltet. Es ist wirklich einfach einen User über die OSM-Webseite zu kontaktieren, warum nutzt du das nicht, anstatt völlig ungerichtet deinen Unmut hier reinzublasen? Potlatch mag sein ein tolles Tool sein, ein gut gemeintes Tool ... leider wissen vielleicht 2 % der Leute, die es verwenden, was sie da tun. Das glaube ich nicht, Tim. -- Dirk-Lüder Deelkar Kreie Bremen - 53.0952°N 8.8652°E signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Potlatch, die Siebenundzwölfigste
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:28:18 +0200 Ralf Oltmanns [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ich bin mir recht sicher, dass ich mir meiner Meinung nicht allein da stehe. Einen Thread mit genau dem selben Inhalt, habe ich auch schon mal geschrieben. Nun wirst du als dogmatisch und einsichtig hingestellt, viel Spass dabei. Sollte ich mich irren, sagt mir einfach Bescheid, dann verschwende ich meine Zeit lieber mit einem anderen Hobby und lass die Potlatcher weitergrandeln. Selbe Drohung habe ich auch schon ausgesprochen, hatte keinen Effekt. Daher würde ich sagen: *Closed* -- - Mein Weblog: http://der-eichi.de Themen unter anderem aus den Bereichen |Politik|, |Linux| und |freie Software| - Mein öffentlicher PGP Schlüssel: http://pgp.der-eichi.de - ! Freie Alternative zu Google Maps Co.: http://www.openstreetmap.org ! ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Potlatch, die Siebenundzwölfigste
Zitat Thomas Hieber: Michael Buege schrieb: Zitat Ralf Oltmanns: Wann endlich wird es eine Qualitätskontrolle geben, die verhindert, dass Potlatcher einem die ganze Arbeit kaputtmachen? Fuer mich bitte frisches Popkorn und eine Diaetcola! Glaubst Du wirklich, dass auf die Diskussion noch mal jemand anspringt? Nein, glauben tue ich das nicht. Ich weiss es. ;-) Langsam ist das Thema doch wirklich totdiskutiert. Totgesagte leben lange und nichts hat auch nur annaehernd die Halbwertzeit von Popkornthemen. Ansonsten für mich bitte auch einmal Popkorn. Jepp. -- Michael ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Potlatch, die Siebenundzwölfigste
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Liebe Mitkartographen, als Atheist liegt es mir fern, mich an die Götter zu wenden, aber ich glaube, wenn ich mal wieder 'nen Zeugen Jehovas auf der Straße treffe, bitte ich ihn, für mich ein gutes Wort einzulegen. Wann endlich wird es eine Qualitätskontrolle geben, die verhindert, dass Potlatcher einem die ganze Arbeit kaputtmachen? Potlatch mag sein ein tolles Tool sein, ein gut gemeintes Tool ... leider wissen vielleicht 2 % der Leute, die es verwenden, was sie da tun. Ihr wisst ja, dass gut gemeint das Gegentum zu gut ist. Der Rest sind wie 4jährige, denen Du Malstifte gibst und sie dann in ein frisch tapeziertes Zimmer sperrst. Und wer sich DANN noch wundert, dass er anschließend neu tapezieren muss, der gehört mit rostigen Nägeln ans Kreuz genagelt. Ich bin begeistert bei der Truppe und kartographiere wirklich gerne und so oft es meine Zeit erlaubt ... leider viel zu wenig. Aber wenn ich nur noch 10% Mapping und 90% Fehlerkorrektur vor mir habe, da hat der Spaß echt ein Loch. Ich bin mir recht sicher, dass ich mir meiner Meinung nicht allein da stehe. Sollte ich mich irren, sagt mir einfach Bescheid, dann verschwende ich meine Zeit lieber mit einem anderen Hobby und lass die Potlatcher weitergrandeln. Aber mit der Qualität, die die OSM-Karte vielerorts hat, gewinnen wir kaum einen Blumentopf, wenn's zur Nagelprobe kommt. Sissiphus hatte zeitweise 'nen leichteren Job als die Leute, die ernsthaft versuchen, hier eine hochqualitative Karte zu erstellen. Den hat nur EIN Hügel gestört, nicht aberdutzende von wohlwollenden Dilletanten. Sorry für die harten Worte. Aber so wie's jetzt ist, werden sehr viele Leute vergrault. Und das ist traurig bei einem solch tollen Projekt. LG Ralf aka TigerDuck -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQEVAwUBSI4PvjHU7t9XiJ++AQK15wf/Zqyh+u/SLyNKeW8QQJuiYZOMee2bp29H 7TRnX7LP2hWBZXicvo9FfgpBPphYPkV35cquwKUy21gOEG8rqf1l747M81GgX2GC QCyuoelu/jpaF66chIMbgjfCBRf57fhNJ5LahaMsKxlFeRlH9urzHezKc3KY9cpU E2kGZhBRJedNCeEfMqH6yXTjQvCrFfnEnvECnVyFYjQq2ctW9PGi0HNXqYLI1j9Z gcxPpPWudHC4fo9Flv/mTaqQkIuCUhxXCUjRhNlHdKBSYpfKFgMLvo+OQFDWF7tT hzXSapEF7gtkPPpa5QrP1KsQv9LxiVfp37CJEqhDt+iUsv9CkggJwg== =Sfra -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Potlatch, die Siebenundzwölfigste
Zitat Ralf Oltmanns: Wann endlich wird es eine Qualitätskontrolle geben, die verhindert, dass Potlatcher einem die ganze Arbeit kaputtmachen? Fuer mich bitte frisches Popkorn und eine Diaetcola! SCNR -- Michael ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Potlatch, die Siebenundzwölfigste
Michael Buege schrieb: Zitat Ralf Oltmanns: Wann endlich wird es eine Qualitätskontrolle geben, die verhindert, dass Potlatcher einem die ganze Arbeit kaputtmachen? Fuer mich bitte frisches Popkorn und eine Diaetcola! Glaubst Du wirklich, dass auf die Diskussion noch mal jemand anspringt? Langsam ist das Thema doch wirklich totdiskutiert. Ansonsten für mich bitte auch einmal Popkorn. Gruß, Thomas ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Potlatch, die Siebenundzwölfigste
Wooohooo, jetzt kommt wieder der Reichelt mit seiner unqualifizierten Meinung :P. Ralf Oltmanns schrieb: Ich bin mir recht sicher, dass ich mir meiner Meinung nicht allein da stehe. Sollte ich mich irren, sagt mir einfach Bescheid, dann verschwende ich meine Zeit lieber mit einem anderen Hobby und lass die Potlatcher weitergrandeln. Aber mit der Qualität, die die OSM-Karte vielerorts hat, gewinnen wir kaum einen Blumentopf, wenn's zur Nagelprobe kommt. Villeicht hast Du ja bereits die alten Diskussionen verfolgt und Potlach ist nach wie vor ein Problem, nur dass das Thema mittlerweile schon so oft behandelt wurde, dass wohl keiner mehr Lust hat, darüber noch großartig zu diskutieren - man akzeptiert es einfach stillschweigend. Mir ist positver Weise aufgefallen, dass allerdings in letzter Zeit in meiner Gegend keine neuen Wunden geschlagen wurden. Viel mehr kommen immer mehr fleißige Tracksammler dazu. Dies bietet mir die Möglichkeit, alte Strecken zu korregieren. So vollständig es hier auch aussieht, das Meiste ist mit irgend einem uralten Potlach von Yahoo abgemalt und von dementsprechender Qualität. Ich bin drauf und dran, die Strecken nacheinander den Tracks anzupassen in der Hoffnung, dass OSM immer genauer wird. Ein Wunsch meinerseits wäre, dass man sich mal eine gute Möglichkeit ausdenkt, Videotutorials so zu gestalten, dass man Teile davon sehr leicht austauschen kann. Denkbar wäre eine Flash/Silverlight-Umsetzung oder das zurückgreifen auf SMIL, wobei der Haken daran ist, dass man diesen beknatterten Real-Player braucht, da anscheinend kein anderer Mediaplayer-Programmierer anstrengungen unternimmt, das Format zu unterstützen (oder ich weiss nichts davon). signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
