Re: [Talk-GB] Property extents

[Gareth L]

I’d maybe see the benefit for this data in more accurate/consistent 
landuse=residential areas? The whole “do you include the road, or create the 
area up to the road” decision.
Gareth


On 10 Jan 2019, at 00:19, Warin 
<61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


Even if it were open .. does OSM want it?

I don't see any specific tags for it?

And you do want to have them accurate and up to date.

---

Example of inaccurate property extent problems .. from Australia - 
https://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/news/coroner-hits-out-at-police-use-of-google-maps-printouts-in-search-for-missing-man/news-story/0d005d8018e694433313ab2b941c7df4

A recent coroner hit out at the decision to rely on Google Maps printouts in 
the manhunt — noting that Queensland Police Service (QPS) had better tools 
available to them to search the area.

In fact, the inquest detailed how officers on the case were later given a much 
more informative aerial map of the area from the local council, at no cost to 
police whatsoever.

“It is quite apparent the quality of the images of the property on this map is 
far superior to the Google map images used in the search of the property and 
one wonders if the same mistake in conducting a search of only half the 
property would have been made if this map had been obtained,” Deputy State 
Coroner John Lock said in his report.

---

There are lots of potential problems from mapping private property extents. 
Don't think I would want to go there.

On 09/01/19 23:40, Andy Robinson wrote:
Tom, Jerry, Chris thanks for the very helpful prompts.

Cheers
Andy

From: Chris Hill [mailto:o...@raggedred.net]
Sent: 09 January 2019 12:37
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Property extents


Here's one of Jerry's blog posts about the not-so-open Land Registry data:

https://sk53-osm.blogspot.com/2013/10/not-very-inspired-land-registry-open.html

and my post about testing using them:

https://chris-osm.blogspot.com/2013/10/land-registry-inspire-polygons.html

As Tom says, these datasets are not Open Data and we cannot use them as a data 
source in OSM. I feel that the Open Government Licence should not be used in 
this case as it isn't  Open.


On 09/01/2019 11:47, SK53 wrote:
Hi Andy,

Both Chris Hill & I blogged about them at the time, but they NEVER had any 
semblance of being open data.

The same proved to be true of the Land Registry Prices Paid which now can only 
be used if you are an estate agent.

Owen has covered both on his Map Gubbins blog.

Have to dash, so no time to find the links.

Jerry

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 11:07, Andy Robinson 
mailto:ajrli...@gmail.com>> wrote:
As a follow-up, has anyone looked at the OGL licenced INSPIRE Land Registry 
index polygons?
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/download-inspire-index-polygons

Data is in GML format.

Cheers
Andy

-Original Message-
From: Andy Robinson [mailto:ajrli...@gmail.com]
Sent: 09 January 2019 10:56
To: 'David Woolley'; talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: RE: [Talk-GB] Property extents

On Wed 09/01/2019 10:35 David Woolley wrote:
>Actually, that seems more valuable to OSM than the building
>outlines as it is much more difficult to accurately recover from
>aerial imagery and ground surveys can normally only see front yards.

Agreed, though I wonder whether this will have any correlation with Land 
Registry. I'm guessing .gov isn’t that joined up.

Cheers
Andy




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Re: [Talk-GB] Property extents

[Warin]

Even if it were open .. does OSM want it?

I don't see any specific tags for it?

And you do want to have them accurate and up to date.

---

Example of inaccurate property extent problems .. from Australia - 
https://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/news/coroner-hits-out-at-police-use-of-google-maps-printouts-in-search-for-missing-man/news-story/0d005d8018e694433313ab2b941c7df4


A recent coroner hit out at the decision to rely on Google Maps 
printouts in the manhunt — noting that Queensland Police Service (QPS) 
had better tools available to them to search the area.


In fact, the inquest detailed how officers on the case were later given 
a much more informative aerial map of the area from the local council, 
at no cost to police whatsoever.


“It is quite apparent the quality of the images of the property on this 
map is far superior to the Google map images used in the search of the 
property and one wonders if the same mistake in conducting a search of 
only half the property would have been made if this map had been 
obtained,” Deputy State Coroner John Lock said in his report.


---

There are lots of potential problems from mapping private property 
extents. Don't think I would want to go there.



On 09/01/19 23:40, Andy Robinson wrote:


Tom, Jerry, Chris thanks for the very helpful prompts.

Cheers

Andy

*From:*Chris Hill [mailto:o...@raggedred.net]
*Sent:* 09 January 2019 12:37
*To:* talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
*Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] Property extents

Here's one of Jerry's blog posts about the not-so-open Land Registry data:

https://sk53-osm.blogspot.com/2013/10/not-very-inspired-land-registry-open.html

and my post about testing using them:

https://chris-osm.blogspot.com/2013/10/land-registry-inspire-polygons.html

As Tom says, these datasets are not Open Data and we cannot use them 
as a data source in OSM. I feel that the Open Government Licence 
should not be used in this case as it isn't  Open.


On 09/01/2019 11:47, SK53 wrote:

Hi Andy,

Both Chris Hill & I blogged about them at the time, but they NEVER
had any semblance of being open data.

The same proved to be true of the Land Registry Prices Paid which
now can only be used if you are an estate agent.

Owen has covered both on his Map Gubbins blog.

Have to dash, so no time to find the links.

Jerry

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 11:07, Andy Robinson mailto:ajrli...@gmail.com>> wrote:

As a follow-up, has anyone looked at the OGL licenced INSPIRE
Land Registry index polygons?

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/download-inspire-index-polygons

Data is in GML format.

Cheers
Andy

-Original Message-
From: Andy Robinson [mailto:ajrli...@gmail.com
]
Sent: 09 January 2019 10:56
To: 'David Woolley'; talk-gb@openstreetmap.org

Subject: RE: [Talk-GB] Property extents

On Wed 09/01/2019 10:35 David Woolley wrote:
>Actually, that seems more valuable to OSM than the building
>outlines as it is much more difficult to accurately recover from
>aerial imagery and ground surveys can normally only see front
yards.

Agreed, though I wonder whether this will have any correlation
with Land Registry. I'm guessing .gov isn’t that joined up.

Cheers
Andy





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Re: [Talk-GB] Mapping Mobility Stockport

[Warin]

On 10/01/19 07:17, Andy Townsend wrote:

On 09/01/2019 18:11, Jez Nicholson wrote:

Seeking your input...

One thing that struck me when I had to start planning for getting from 
A to B with someone on a mobility scooter or in a wheelchair was that 
the "obvious" things (kerbs etc.) weren't the biggest issue - it was 
things like the exact location of the shopmobility office (which level 
of the car park and exactly where on that level?) and gates that 
weren't mobility-scooter accessible not because they weren't wide 
enough but because the angle you'd have to turn through was impossible 
(I've still no idea how to map that).


Umm I'd try 'wheelchair=no' on the way. Presumably a wheel chair would 
have similar difficulty there.


I'd actually start by asking potential users in Stockport "so what do 
you want to see on a map?".  I bet a whole pile of requests will come 
in that aren't covered by any OSM map.


With regard to "what shows this" 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wheelchair#Rendering (which 
you've probably already looked at) has a couple of suggestions.  I'm 
sure that there are others though, even features of non-"accessibility 
sprecific" renderings such as the "shopmobility parsing" that I added 
to 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=20=53.4955228=-2.514984 
when I found it personally useful.


I am thinking about making a new wiki page for mappers on tags available 
for disability/accessibility things. Presently there is no common page 
for them, something similar to;


the format of https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway

and tagging on 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Handicaps/R%C3%A9f%C3%A9rentiel


Yet to get off my bum and do some more research on it, the above will 
give me some more to do, thanks.




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Re: [Talk-GB] Mapping Mobility Stockport

[Neil Matthews]

Bath Hacked (on meetup) might be useful to contact -- they organised a
round-table to consider main issues for accessibility in Bath, e.g.
https://www.meetup.com/Bath-Hacked/events/237213318/ before several
sesssions surveying and adding items to Openwheelmap.

Cheers,

Neil



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Re: [Talk-GB] Mapping Mobility Stockport

[SK53]

Hi Jez,

These things are much talked about in OSM, but relatively rarely moved to a
point of real usability. I went to a really interesting talk at SotM-10
with lots of good ideas, but years later when I looked at their target city
there was nary a trace of actual mapping.

Even for step counts I'm not aware of any applications which do
reduced-step as opposed to step-free routing (unless Richard does something
in cycle.travel where a flight of 10 steps may be acceptable compared with
a kilometre detour). Part of the problem here is that often the precise
number of steps which are acceptable will depend on each individual.
However, mapping step counts is easy, everyone is likely to come to a
similar result.

Off the top of my head things which should be relatively easy to capture
and fit in OSM :

   - Steps & step counts on stairs . Either map individual flights of
   stairs separately or include some indication of how many steps there are on
   each flight. If one has to use stairs, the ability to take a breather can
   mean that 2 flights of 20 steps are easier than 1 of 30.
   - Presence of handrails on stairs
   - Atypical steps (e.g., a footpath with 1 or 2 steps every 20 metres or
   so; or ones where the individual treads are long (came across one of these
   at Birkenhead Park station & there's no lift).
   - Steeper inclines on footways/pedestrianised streets
   - Dropped kerbs (it's actually quite hard to identify properly flush
   ones, and hitting something which is just slightly proud of the line can
   jolt a wheelchair)
   - Refuge islands for pedestrian crossings
   - Unmarked crossings (often identified by dropped kerbs and perhaps a
   refuge)
   - Wheelchair access to amenities & shops (best done by a wheelchair
   user, but could be done with a tape measure for all entrances which are not
   flush). Also it's quite likely that dedicated wheelchair ramps may not have
   been mapped in the first pass.
   Do amenities/shops which have a step to gain entrance have a) a ramp or
   b) an alternative means of egress. Asking about this could be a good way to
   tell them about simple metal/fibre-glass movable ramps.
   - Pedestrian safety barriers (as these may restrict viable places to
   cross roads (not important if one solely allows ped. crossings for routing).
   - Lifts in shopping centres & other locations (e.g, railway stations).
   - Seating at bus stops

At some stage the issue of whether to map pavements (sidewalks) separately
will arise. If pavements are to be mapped separately they need to be done
systematically in any one area : incomplete mapping can cause problems with
many existing applications, particularly those which do routing (e.g.,
Traveline SouthEast). This may be a suitable case for using something like
Tasking Manager: I can set up a project if needed as I have kindly been
given rights to do on the instance supported by the Swiss OSM community.

I've spent about 3 hours in total mapping the town centre of Stockport in
2015 and 2016, so I have a bit of local knowledge. I've also mapped stuff
along the A516 to the Tameside boundary, but not really elsewhere in the
Borough. As elsewhere in NW England it is not mapped as intensively as
other places. It certainly has plenty of steps, steep pedestrian routes
right in the middle of the town. A cursory check suggests that improving
the mapping of railway stations would probably be useful, for instance the
current mapping of Brinnington doesn't accord with the statement that it is
not accessible on this forum

.

I probably have a couple of hundred photos, but Bing StreetSide is
available for the area (albeit 2012) and shows enough detail to be useful
as here  with the steps up from Little Underbank
towards the Market. Capturing more recent imagery for Mapillary would also
certainly help. The town centre is not so big as to be unmanageable. I
don't have any idea of that status of other local centres.

One project which is worth mentioning is OpenSidewalks
, which had some impact in the US. I don't
know what it's current status might be.

Jerry

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 18:12, Jez Nicholson  wrote:

> Seeking your input...
>
> I'm talking with Open Data Institute (ODI) Manchester about their "Mapping
> Mobility Stockport" project which won some funding in a competition to
> encourage interaction between public bodies and Open Data bodies (such as
> OSM).
>
> They are "crowdsourcing and creating an accessibility map of Stockport,
> working with disability action groups and Age UK."
>
> They will be running workshops with different groups of people getting
> them out mapping. Data created will 1) be added to Stockport Council’s GIS
> map and to help inform them of problems, 2) be added to OSMalthough
> they are keen to use OSM as the primary datastore then extract stuff for
> 

[Talk-GB] Mapping Mobility Stockport

[Jez Nicholson]

Seeking your input...

I'm talking with Open Data Institute (ODI) Manchester about their "Mapping
Mobility Stockport" project which won some funding in a competition to
encourage interaction between public bodies and Open Data bodies (such as
OSM).

They are "crowdsourcing and creating an accessibility map of Stockport,
working with disability action groups and Age UK."

They will be running workshops with different groups of people getting them
out mapping. Data created will 1) be added to Stockport Council’s GIS map
and to help inform them of problems, 2) be added to OSMalthough they
are keen to use OSM as the primary datastore then extract stuff for use by
the Council, and not vice versa. They will mostly be using existing tools.

I believe that some mobility things are suited for inclusion in OSM,  e.g.
number of steps in a flight (from a chat I had with SK53), or wheelchair
accessibility of shops (maybe using WheelMap).

Some things like uneven paving stones might be better suited to
FixMyStreet, but that could be used as well.

So far I've suggested using a combination of OSM ID Editor, WheelMap, and
FixMyStreet. What other tools or information on the web are there to
consider? Any specific mobility things to map (on OSM or other
tools/sites)? Is there an "accessibility render" anywhere?

Regards,
 Jez
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Re: [Talk-GB] Property extents

[Andy Robinson]

Tom, Jerry, Chris thanks for the very helpful prompts.

 

Cheers

Andy

 

From: Chris Hill [mailto:o...@raggedred.net] 
Sent: 09 January 2019 12:37
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Property extents

 

Here's one of Jerry's blog posts about the not-so-open Land Registry data:

https://sk53-osm.blogspot.com/2013/10/not-very-inspired-land-registry-open.html

and my post about testing using them:

https://chris-osm.blogspot.com/2013/10/land-registry-inspire-polygons.html

As Tom says, these datasets are not Open Data and we cannot use them as a data 
source in OSM. I feel that the Open Government Licence should not be used in 
this case as it isn't  Open.

 

On 09/01/2019 11:47, SK53 wrote:

Hi Andy,

 

Both Chris Hill & I blogged about them at the time, but they NEVER had any 
semblance of being open data.

 

The same proved to be true of the Land Registry Prices Paid which now can only 
be used if you are an estate agent.

 

Owen has covered both on his Map Gubbins blog.

 

Have to dash, so no time to find the links.

 

Jerry

 

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 11:07, Andy Robinson  wrote:

As a follow-up, has anyone looked at the OGL licenced INSPIRE Land Registry 
index polygons?
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/download-inspire-index-polygons

Data is in GML format.

Cheers
Andy

-Original Message-
From: Andy Robinson [mailto:ajrli...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 09 January 2019 10:56
To: 'David Woolley'; talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: RE: [Talk-GB] Property extents

On Wed 09/01/2019 10:35 David Woolley wrote:
>Actually, that seems more valuable to OSM than the building 
>outlines as it is much more difficult to accurately recover from 
>aerial imagery and ground surveys can normally only see front yards.

Agreed, though I wonder whether this will have any correlation with Land 
Registry. I'm guessing .gov isn’t that joined up.

Cheers
Andy 





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cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)
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Re: [Talk-GB] Property extents

[Chris Hill]

Here's one of Jerry's blog posts about the not-so-open Land Registry data:

https://sk53-osm.blogspot.com/2013/10/not-very-inspired-land-registry-open.html

and my post about testing using them:

https://chris-osm.blogspot.com/2013/10/land-registry-inspire-polygons.html

As Tom says, these datasets are not Open Data and we cannot use them as 
a data source in OSM. I feel that the Open Government Licence should not 
be used in this case as it isn't  Open.



On 09/01/2019 11:47, SK53 wrote:

Hi Andy,

Both Chris Hill & I blogged about them at the time, but they NEVER had 
any semblance of being open data.


The same proved to be true of the Land Registry Prices Paid which now 
can only be used if you are an estate agent.


Owen has covered both on his Map Gubbins blog.

Have to dash, so no time to find the links.

Jerry

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 11:07, Andy Robinson > wrote:


As a follow-up, has anyone looked at the OGL licenced INSPIRE Land
Registry index polygons?
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/download-inspire-index-polygons

Data is in GML format.

Cheers
Andy

-Original Message-
From: Andy Robinson [mailto:ajrli...@gmail.com
]
Sent: 09 January 2019 10:56
To: 'David Woolley'; talk-gb@openstreetmap.org

Subject: RE: [Talk-GB] Property extents

On Wed 09/01/2019 10:35 David Woolley wrote:
>Actually, that seems more valuable to OSM than the building
>outlines as it is much more difficult to accurately recover from
>aerial imagery and ground surveys can normally only see front yards.

Agreed, though I wonder whether this will have any correlation
with Land Registry. I'm guessing .gov isn’t that joined up.

Cheers
Andy





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--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

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Re: [Talk-GB] Property extents

[SK53]

Hi Andy,

Both Chris Hill & I blogged about them at the time, but they NEVER had any
semblance of being open data.

The same proved to be true of the Land Registry Prices Paid which now can
only be used if you are an estate agent.

Owen has covered both on his Map Gubbins blog.

Have to dash, so no time to find the links.

Jerry

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 11:07, Andy Robinson  wrote:

> As a follow-up, has anyone looked at the OGL licenced INSPIRE Land
> Registry index polygons?
> https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/download-inspire-index-polygons
>
> Data is in GML format.
>
> Cheers
> Andy
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Andy Robinson [mailto:ajrli...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 09 January 2019 10:56
> To: 'David Woolley'; talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: RE: [Talk-GB] Property extents
>
> On Wed 09/01/2019 10:35 David Woolley wrote:
> >Actually, that seems more valuable to OSM than the building
> >outlines as it is much more difficult to accurately recover from
> >aerial imagery and ground surveys can normally only see front yards.
>
> Agreed, though I wonder whether this will have any correlation with Land
> Registry. I'm guessing .gov isn’t that joined up.
>
> Cheers
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Property extents

[Tom Hughes]

DO NOT USE THIS.

You need to read the license properly, and especially the linked
document with "third party conditions" from OS that has all sorts
of unacceptable restrictions:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/inspire-index-polygons-spatial-data#conditions-of-use
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/about/governance/policies/inspire-index-polygons-licensing-terms.html

I imagine the upcoming hopefully properly free data will basically
be the same though.

Tom

On 09/01/2019 11:06, Andy Robinson wrote:

As a follow-up, has anyone looked at the OGL licenced INSPIRE Land Registry 
index polygons?
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/download-inspire-index-polygons

Data is in GML format.

Cheers
Andy

-Original Message-
From: Andy Robinson [mailto:ajrli...@gmail.com]
Sent: 09 January 2019 10:56
To: 'David Woolley'; talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: RE: [Talk-GB] Property extents

On Wed 09/01/2019 10:35 David Woolley wrote:

Actually, that seems more valuable to OSM than the building
outlines as it is much more difficult to accurately recover from
aerial imagery and ground surveys can normally only see front yards.


Agreed, though I wonder whether this will have any correlation with Land 
Registry. I'm guessing .gov isn’t that joined up.

Cheers
Andy





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--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/

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Re: [Talk-GB] Property extents

[Andy Robinson]

As a follow-up, has anyone looked at the OGL licenced INSPIRE Land Registry 
index polygons?
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/download-inspire-index-polygons

Data is in GML format.

Cheers
Andy

-Original Message-
From: Andy Robinson [mailto:ajrli...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 09 January 2019 10:56
To: 'David Woolley'; talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: RE: [Talk-GB] Property extents

On Wed 09/01/2019 10:35 David Woolley wrote:
>Actually, that seems more valuable to OSM than the building 
>outlines as it is much more difficult to accurately recover from 
>aerial imagery and ground surveys can normally only see front yards.

Agreed, though I wonder whether this will have any correlation with Land 
Registry. I'm guessing .gov isn’t that joined up.

Cheers
Andy 





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Re: [Talk-GB] Property extents

[Andy Robinson]

On Wed 09/01/2019 10:35 David Woolley wrote:
>Actually, that seems more valuable to OSM than the building 
>outlines as it is much more difficult to accurately recover from 
>aerial imagery and ground surveys can normally only see front yards.

Agreed, though I wonder whether this will have any correlation with Land 
Registry. I'm guessing .gov isn’t that joined up.

Cheers
Andy 




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Re: [Talk-GB] Property extents

[David Woolley]

On 09/01/2019 09:36, Rob Nickerson wrote:
It is the land area (e.g. garden boundary of a detached house) rather 
than the building outline. They deem the building outline to have too 
high a commercial value under their current funding mechanism.


Actually, that seems more valuable to OSM than the building outlines as 
it is much more difficult to accurately recover from aerial imagery and 
ground surveys can normally only see front yards.


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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM Hi-vis

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 23:46, Rob Nickerson  wrote:
> OSM UK are now taking orders for high-vis vests. Show your support for 
> OpenStreetMap by ordering one or more today at:
>
> https://osmuk.org/product/osm-uk-hi-vis-vest/

Based on the sample you have, do you have any advice over the sizes?
Presumably most people will want their hi-viz to fit over a coat, so
should we go up a size from our normal? How does the (presumably)
chest size quoted related to the actual circumference of the jacket
when done up?

Thanks,

Robert.

-- 
Robert Whittaker

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[Talk-GB] Property extents

[Rob Nickerson]

Hi all,

You may recall that the geospatial commission & ordnance survey have
announced that they will be releasing "property extents". By chance I found
myself in a meeting room with both organisations so I asked what "property
extents" means. It is the land area (e.g. garden boundary of a detached
house) rather than the building outline. They deem the building outline to
have too high a commercial value under their current funding mechanism.

I also found out that the commission received over 200 responses (202 I
think) hence the delay. They will be providing a summary of the responses.

Best regards,
Rob
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