[Talk-GB] MapThePaths downtime

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

Hello everyone,

I have updated mapthepaths.org.uk's DNS record to point to a different server. 
When this is done I will need to obtain a new HTTPS certificate. It's possible 
that interruptions may occur over the next 24 hours or so but once updated it 
will be up without further interuption.

Thanks,
Nick


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Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

Hello Adam,

OK - that's great, thanks!

Does the AWS hosting include full shell access? We'll need that to install the 
relevant software.

Let me know if/when the server space is available.

In the meantime I will create a Hetzner server to start experimenting, this 
will be around EUR4/month which I am prepared to meet in the short term, I will 
also give accounts to trusted members of the community on request to work on 
the project should they wish.

Nick





From: OSMUK 
Sent: 13 December 2020 18:36
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Cc: Nick Whitelegg 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server

Hey Nick,

This sounds like a great project and so I’m sure OSMUK can help with server 
space. We have just migrated hosting to AWS due to our previous host shutting 
down, so one option is to provide some space on there.

Best,

Adam

--
Adam Hoyle
[m] 07973 428 333
On 11 Dec 2020, 15:02 +0000, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB , wrote:

Hello Andy,

Thanks for this.

My own feeling regarding what server we need is "start small, to get it going" 
and then as soon as OSMUK can commit to funding (*if* they can, of course) 
and/or several people share the cost, then scale up. Hetzner's model is very 
flexible in this regard, for instance I started with an 8GB RAM VM before I 
found it wasn't quite adequate for my needs and upgraded the same VM to the 
16GB version (and added some disc space, I think, too). For now I am willing to 
spend a small amount (below EUR/GBP 5) for a month or two to get things going 
if there's sufficient interest.

I'd broadly agree to an extent about going the Mapnik route although I would 
prefer another person with more experience in the niceties of current Mapnik 
stylesheet development to do large-scale tweaks;  I would be happy to do small​ 
tweaks on such things as, for example, making designations appear in a similar 
style to Landranger which might be an idea for familiarity purposes. On the 
other hand, vector rendering would have some advantages for the aims of this 
project - an interactive map of the countryside in which POIs and paths can be 
clicked to add/retrieve information. I believe Tangram can do this quite 
easily; I have dabbled in Tangram and it's quite easy to setup a simple 
stylesheet though haven't tried it with anything complex. Tangram also has some 
nice things like being able to be rendered in both isometric and (via A-Frame 
components, https://aframe.io) even in 3D. I have to admit having a personal 
like for the vector approach,   it shifts more processing onto the client, good 
in a world where standard client hardware, desktop and mobile, is pretty 
powerful while powerful server hardware is expensive.

I wouldn't personally be so fussed about things like minutely updates until it 
becomes a 'production' map, while in development mode I think the best approach 
is to keep it simple and cheap to run. In terms of my own projects I do quite 
rigorous filtering of the OSM data before populating the DB, to reject things 
mostly of interest to urban areas which only use up space and resources in a 
walking-oriented map. Another way of keeping initial costs down would be to 
concentrate on one or a few counties, ideally well-mapped ones with many ROWs, 
hills, water features etc.

So I'd be quite happy - if​ there's interest - to setup a cheaper Hetzner 
server for now. If we want to go the mapnik route I'd be happy to do a basic 
setup there as well, as in, get mod_tile working and use your style unmodified. 
My main personal contribution to the project would be to work on the server- 
and client-side scripting necessary to develop an interactive POI map. We'd 
also of course need people with strong web design and UX skills - alas, mine 
are not so great!

As for other points - things like https cert renewal seem easy with Let's 
Encrypt; have been using that succesfully for a while now.

Nick



Nick Whitelegg
Senior Lecturer in Computing (Internet)  | School of Media Arts and Technology
Southampton Solent University  | RM424 | East Park Terrace | Southampton SO14 
0YN
T: 023 8201 3075 | E: 
nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk<mailto:nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk> | W: 
solent.ac.uk<http://www.solent.ac.uk/>

Disclaimer<http://www.solent.ac.uk/disclaimer/disclaimer.aspx>

From: Andy Townsend 
Sent: 11 December 2020 13:40
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server



On 11/12/2020 09:59, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB wrote:

In the early stages I think we could run it on cheap hosting hardware, like 
most projects in the OSM ecosystem. I suspect for a while usage would be light 
and limited to those in the OSM community. I use Hetzner for my hosting 
(OpenTrailView, Hikar, MapThePaths) - I pay around EUR 19/month but that is for 
a larger system that has to deal with the whole of Euro

Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

Hello Martin/Nick,

Perhaps the combination of highway, surface and designation will cover many of 
these use-cases?

e.g. a service road that looks like a track but is a service road, and has 
bridleway rights, could be tagged as:

highway=service; surface=unpaved; designation=public_bridleway

For rendering, if one rendered tracks or unpaved service roads as dashed black 
lines, and designations as coloured lines, you could render the designation 
layer as a coloured transparent line above the track/service road layer. This 
is what I do in my own projects.

Nick



From: Martin Wynne 
Sent: 13 December 2020 14:01
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

On 13/12/2020 13:45, Nick wrote:

> what do people think of Overlapping ways i.e. one is a road and
> a duplicate is a bridleway? Not elegant and something I would not
> normally suggest but...

Hi Nick,

When I've tried that in the past I've been jumped on for breaking a
fundamental rule of OSM that one feature should have only one entry in
the database.

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

Hi everyone,

I notice I'm being CCed in quite a bit here.

Just to make it clear, there are at least two "Nick"s on the thread. I just 
made the comment about Noverton Farm - it's another Nick who has made most of 
the contributions.

It's an interesting thread but just want to make sure that I am not being 
attributed to posts I didn't make.

Thanks,
Nick



From: Peter Neale 
Sent: 13 December 2020 10:44
To: Nick Whitelegg ; Edward Bainton 

Cc: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

IMHO, if it leads on to another road, track, etc. it is not a "driveway", but 
could be a track, a bridleway, a service road, or something else.

The Wiki says that a driveway is (with my bold for emphasis),

" ... a minor service road leading to a residential or business property. It 
typically branches from a bigger road and leads toward an entrance to a 
specific destination (building, etc.). It may end at or pass the entrance, but 
either way, it gets close to its destination. It is rare for a driveway to be 
the way to access another roadway (but see Pipestems below)."

(pipestems allow a driveway to be shared between several properties)

So if, in this case, it leads on to another way (e.g. a bridleway, or a track), 
it is not a driveway.  Does this solve the problem?

Regards,
Peter

Peter Neale
t: 01908 309666
m: 07968 341930
skype: nealepb


On Sunday, 13 December 2020, 10:25:46 GMT, Edward Bainton 
 wrote:


Sorry, I joined this thread late and I see the initial query was, How to ensure 
tracks don't just pop up nowhere'. So driveway first then track doesn't solve 
the problem.

That makes me say track all the way, as someone else has said. The different 
surfaces can be caught in the attributes.

On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 10:08, Edward Bainton 
mailto:bainton@gmail.com>> wrote:
>  https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
>
> It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If
> I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for
> the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track"
> means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.

I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland lights, I'd 
probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly once it passes the farm 
buildings (since I see a driveway as implying car-worthy access to a building).

Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track?

I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer is what 
we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging it for the 
renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this case, I'd say track is 
a valid choice - I think even for the whole length, if by "driveway" we infer 
something, short, tidy, and suburban.

But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I await 
correction by my olders.

On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB 
mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:
>Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the
>cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm
>buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:

  >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg


Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm) sounded 
familiar.

A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a  long distance 
walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary footpaths (planned 
using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme Valley. It was very nice 
but​ the footpaths were in an appaling state of disrepair, I remember on 
several occasions that day having to scramble through dense shrub cover and 
attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I seem to recall Noverton Farm as 
being the site of some particularly badly-maintained footpaths.

As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to 
illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it, which 
is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I still haven't 
illustrated this walk incidentally, but...

Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since..

Nick



From: Martin Wynne mailto:mar...@templot.com>>
Sent: 12 December 2020 14:30
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org<mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> 
mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>>
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote:

>
> Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it.
> Perhaps that someone is you?

Hi Andy,

Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus,
Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory

[Talk-GB] MapThePaths downtime next weekend Dec 19/20

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

Hello everyone,

A warning that the MapThePaths site (www.mapthepaths.org.uk) and also perhaps 
Freemap will be unavailable next weekend, Dec 19/20, and possibly into the 
early part of next week.

The reason is that I am updating the OSM data on the server next weekend.

I have decided to create a smaller Hetzner server for my UK-specific OSM 
projects, notably MapThePaths, and leave the current server to focus on the 
Europe-wide (and potentially worldwide, but my funds don't stretch to this) 
Hikar and OpenTrailView projects.

This new server may, dependent on time and interest, also be used for 
experimenting with creating an OSM UK walkers' map. I will be willing to give 
shell accounts to trusted members of the OSM UK community (people I know 
personally or mailing list regulars). More on that later.

Nick



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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

>Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the
>cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm
>buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:

  >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg


Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm) sounded 
familiar.

A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a  long distance 
walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary footpaths (planned 
using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme Valley. It was very nice 
but​ the footpaths were in an appaling state of disrepair, I remember on 
several occasions that day having to scramble through dense shrub cover and 
attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I seem to recall Noverton Farm as 
being the site of some particularly badly-maintained footpaths.

As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to 
illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it, which 
is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I still haven't 
illustrated this walk incidentally, but...

Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since..

Nick



From: Martin Wynne 
Sent: 12 December 2020 14:30
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote:

>
> Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it.
> Perhaps that someone is you?

Hi Andy,

Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus,
Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory space
and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, possibly
by hosting something from OSM.


 >  I'd suggest setting up a copy of the
 > standard map rendering as per https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/
 > (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with the
 > logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as
 >
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475



Thanks. I have been looking at https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ but
I have a lot to learn. I can do Windows programming, but on stuff for
the web I'm only a dabbler. I looked at Mapnik and saw interfaces only
for Python and C. If that had been Pascal, I would have dived in by now.

I will have another look and see where I might start. The idea of
creating my own map does appeal to me.

Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the
cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm
buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:

  https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg

It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If
I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for
the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track"
means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.

This is where the farm drive leaves the road - this is definitely more
than a "track" - note the double gates:

  https://goo.gl/maps/XEs4XKs5UUHNBt8E8

cheers,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

Hello Seán,

Thanks for that, sounds a great idea! Would be a great addition to any UK 
countryside map once you have opened your API.

Nick


From: Seán Lynch 
Sent: 11 December 2020 21:03
To: Nick Whitelegg 
Cc: Andy Townsend ; talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 

Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server

Hi all,

As people enjoy their walk, we would love if you could consider uploading any 
plastic / litter data into OpenLitterMap<http://openlittermap.com>

Right now the only way to add data is using our platform, but we will open our 
API hopefully next year and allow uploads from other developers.


github.com/openlittermap<http://github.com/openlittermap>

TeamLitterUK is currently in 1st place globally for uploading the most data

Litter mapping has a remarkably low barrier to entry, allowing for potentially 
many more people to get involved with data collection and mapping

Cheers,

Seán

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 at 15:05, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB 
mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:

Hello Andy,

Thanks for this.

My own feeling regarding what server we need is "start small, to get it going" 
and then as soon as OSMUK can commit to funding (*if* they can, of course) 
and/or several people share the cost, then scale up. Hetzner's model is very 
flexible in this regard, for instance I started with an 8GB RAM VM before I 
found it wasn't quite adequate for my needs and upgraded the same VM to the 
16GB version (and added some disc space, I think, too). For now I am willing to 
spend a small amount (below EUR/GBP 5) for a month or two to get things going 
if there's sufficient interest.

I'd broadly agree to an extent about going the Mapnik route although I would 
prefer another person with more experience in the niceties of current Mapnik 
stylesheet development to do large-scale tweaks;  I would be happy to do small​ 
tweaks on such things as, for example, making designations appear in a similar 
style to Landranger which might be an idea for familiarity purposes. On the 
other hand, vector rendering would have some advantages for the aims of this 
project - an interactive map of the countryside in which POIs and paths can be 
clicked to add/retrieve information. I believe Tangram can do this quite 
easily; I have dabbled in Tangram and it's quite easy to setup a simple 
stylesheet though haven't tried it with anything complex. Tangram also has some 
nice things like being able to be rendered in both isometric and (via A-Frame 
components, https://aframe.io) even in 3D. I have to admit having a personal 
like for the vector approach,   it shifts more processing onto the client, good 
in a world where standard client hardware, desktop and mobile, is pretty 
powerful while powerful server hardware is expensive.

I wouldn't personally be so fussed about things like minutely updates until it 
becomes a 'production' map, while in development mode I think the best approach 
is to keep it simple and cheap to run. In terms of my own projects I do quite 
rigorous filtering of the OSM data before populating the DB, to reject things 
mostly of interest to urban areas which only use up space and resources in a 
walking-oriented map. Another way of keeping initial costs down would be to 
concentrate on one or a few counties, ideally well-mapped ones with many ROWs, 
hills, water features etc.

So I'd be quite happy - if​ there's interest - to setup a cheaper Hetzner 
server for now. If we want to go the mapnik route I'd be happy to do a basic 
setup there as well, as in, get mod_tile working and use your style unmodified. 
My main personal contribution to the project would be to work on the server- 
and client-side scripting necessary to develop an interactive POI map. We'd 
also of course need people with strong web design and UX skills - alas, mine 
are not so great!

As for other points - things like https cert renewal seem easy with Let's 
Encrypt; have been using that succesfully for a while now.

Nick



Nick Whitelegg
Senior Lecturer in Computing (Internet)  | School of Media Arts and Technology
Southampton Solent University  | RM424 | East Park Terrace | Southampton SO14 
0YN
T: 023 8201 3075 | E: 
nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk<mailto:nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk> | W: 
solent.ac.uk<http://www.solent.ac.uk/>

Disclaimer<http://www.solent.ac.uk/disclaimer/disclaimer.aspx>

From: Andy Townsend mailto:ajt1...@gmail.com>>
Sent: 11 December 2020 13:40
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org<mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> 
mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>>
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server



On 11/12/2020 09:59, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB wrote:

In the early stages I think we could run it on cheap hosting hardware, like 
most projects in the OSM ecosystem. I suspect for a while usage would be light 
and limited to 

Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

Hello Andy,

Thanks for this.

My own feeling regarding what server we need is "start small, to get it going" 
and then as soon as OSMUK can commit to funding (*if* they can, of course) 
and/or several people share the cost, then scale up. Hetzner's model is very 
flexible in this regard, for instance I started with an 8GB RAM VM before I 
found it wasn't quite adequate for my needs and upgraded the same VM to the 
16GB version (and added some disc space, I think, too). For now I am willing to 
spend a small amount (below EUR/GBP 5) for a month or two to get things going 
if there's sufficient interest.

I'd broadly agree to an extent about going the Mapnik route although I would 
prefer another person with more experience in the niceties of current Mapnik 
stylesheet development to do large-scale tweaks;  I would be happy to do small​ 
tweaks on such things as, for example, making designations appear in a similar 
style to Landranger which might be an idea for familiarity purposes. On the 
other hand, vector rendering would have some advantages for the aims of this 
project - an interactive map of the countryside in which POIs and paths can be 
clicked to add/retrieve information. I believe Tangram can do this quite 
easily; I have dabbled in Tangram and it's quite easy to setup a simple 
stylesheet though haven't tried it with anything complex. Tangram also has some 
nice things like being able to be rendered in both isometric and (via A-Frame 
components, https://aframe.io) even in 3D. I have to admit having a personal 
like for the vector approach,   it shifts more processing onto the client, good 
in a world where standard client hardware, desktop and mobile, is pretty 
powerful while powerful server hardware is expensive.

I wouldn't personally be so fussed about things like minutely updates until it 
becomes a 'production' map, while in development mode I think the best approach 
is to keep it simple and cheap to run. In terms of my own projects I do quite 
rigorous filtering of the OSM data before populating the DB, to reject things 
mostly of interest to urban areas which only use up space and resources in a 
walking-oriented map. Another way of keeping initial costs down would be to 
concentrate on one or a few counties, ideally well-mapped ones with many ROWs, 
hills, water features etc.

So I'd be quite happy - if​ there's interest - to setup a cheaper Hetzner 
server for now. If we want to go the mapnik route I'd be happy to do a basic 
setup there as well, as in, get mod_tile working and use your style unmodified. 
My main personal contribution to the project would be to work on the server- 
and client-side scripting necessary to develop an interactive POI map. We'd 
also of course need people with strong web design and UX skills - alas, mine 
are not so great!

As for other points - things like https cert renewal seem easy with Let's 
Encrypt; have been using that succesfully for a while now.

Nick



Nick Whitelegg
Senior Lecturer in Computing (Internet)  | School of Media Arts and Technology
Southampton Solent University  | RM424 | East Park Terrace | Southampton SO14 
0YN
T: 023 8201 3075 | E: 
nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk<mailto:nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk> | W: 
solent.ac.uk<http://www.solent.ac.uk/>

Disclaimer<http://www.solent.ac.uk/disclaimer/disclaimer.aspx>

From: Andy Townsend 
Sent: 11 December 2020 13:40
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server



On 11/12/2020 09:59, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB wrote:

In the early stages I think we could run it on cheap hosting hardware, like 
most projects in the OSM ecosystem. I suspect for a while usage would be light 
and limited to those in the OSM community. I use Hetzner for my hosting 
(OpenTrailView, Hikar, MapThePaths) - I pay around EUR 19/month but that is for 
a larger system that has to deal with the whole of Europe rather than just the 
UK.

 https://www.hetzner.com/cloud?country=gb

The second-lowest spec of these, the CPX11 is giving you 2GB RAM and 40GB disc 
space for EUR 4.19 a month. OK we'd need more than that long term, but I 
suspect that would get us going in the early stages.


That'll depending on what you want the server to do, I think.  For an OSM Carto 
Map style with automatic updates and reasonable performance you'll probably 
need > 6Gb memory for the whole of the UK these days.  Maybe a CX31 at €11 per 
month (i.e. about the price of a couple of pints and a "substantial" pork pie 
for those in tier 2)?  https://map.atownsend.org.uk is a CX41 I believe, and 
renders Mapnik / Carto CSS map tiles that cover UK and Ireland.  It could 
probably include another "medium sized OSM country" in the same map style as 
well without too many problems.


On the question of "could we show feature X" (e.g. "cycleways with foot=yes" 
different to "cycl

Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

>Hi


Hello Tony,


>I like the idea.

>Can it be extended to be a UK based map which is has greater prominence to 
>aspects such as the >recent discussion about cyclists and paths?


Potentially, yes - I don't see why not.

I have to admit I personally haven't had much experience in recent years with 
creating mapnik stylesheets (I've been working with client-side renderers such 
as Kothic and have played with Tangram), hence my suggestion earlier of 
starting with Andy Townsend's style.


>Does anyone have an idea of how it could be made to happen - could we (OSM UK) 
>fund and >maintain it with commitment for say 2 years? Using volunteers or 
>donated equipment or personal >funding commitments? Do we know the size of 
>server required to support a given load? Can we >manage the required 
>operations and security?

In the early stages I think we could run it on cheap hosting hardware, like 
most projects in the OSM ecosystem. I suspect for a while usage would be light 
and limited to those in the OSM community. I use Hetzner for my hosting 
(OpenTrailView, Hikar, MapThePaths) - I pay around EUR 19/month but that is for 
a larger system that has to deal with the whole of Europe rather than just the 
UK.

 https://www.hetzner.com/cloud?country=gb

The second-lowest spec of these, the CPX11 is giving you 2GB RAM and 40GB disc 
space for EUR 4.19 a month. OK we'd need more than that long term, but I 
suspect that would get us going in the early stages.

I'm quite happy to create the server and pay the initial costs, but it would be 
good if funds could be found from OSMUK longer term if possible.

I'm also happy to do some dev work (client and server side). I can tweak the 
cartography and add contours (I have experience doing this) but I'll leave it 
up to others to do serious cartography work, and of course web design.

Or, we could even use client-side rendering, Tangram is pretty powerful, have 
had a play with it.

Would be a great project for the community to work on.

Nick



From: Tony Shield 
Sent: 10 December 2020 17:36
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server


Hi

I like the idea.

Can it be extended to be a UK based map which is has greater prominence to 
aspects such as the recent discussion about cyclists and paths?


Does anyone have an idea of how it could be made to happen - could we (OSM UK) 
fund and maintain it with commitment for say 2 years? Using volunteers or 
donated equipment or personal funding commitments? Do we know the size of 
server required to support a given load? Can we manage the required operations 
and security?


Tony Shield - TonyS999




On 04/12/2020 15:40, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB wrote:
Hi,

Just floating an idea for a possible OSMUK site, namely an OSMUK 
'semi-official'  web application for walkers and hikers.

This could provide similar functionality to sites such as the Ramblers' 
Pathwatch 
(https://www.ramblers.org.uk/advice/pathwatch-report-path-features-and-problems.aspx)
 allowing users to report path problems as well as nice views, historical sites 
and so on. It could also provide info such as train or bus times (by clicking 
on a rail station), beers served (for a pub), routing via public transport to a 
given countryside location, and so on.

Reported path problems could be then made available via an API, which could be 
used by councils - and, given we have the council ROW data available to us via 
rowmaps.com  - the right of way reference could be sourced from this if it's 
not in OSM already.

For rendering, we could perhaps use Andy Townsend's SomeoneElse-style, maybe 
tweaked a little, as it appears to be the most actively maintained of all the 
England and Wales renderings. This could be setup on our own server, I seem to 
remember experimenting with this a couple of years ago when the OSMUK idea was 
first floated, on a server which had been loaned to the community (I need to 
re-check my emails, and indeed check if this server is still open for us to 
use!)

I've done similar things to this in the past on a small scale, e.g. Freemap 
(free-map.org.uk) once had the facility to add path problems, but now we have 
the OSMUK organisation in existence, maybe a semi-official OSMUK walkers' map 
with added functionality would have greater traction and it's something that 
could be launched as a project on GitHub?

Thanks,
Nick



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Re: [Talk-GB] Bridleway across field

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

This reminds me a bit of this location, also in Wiltshire:

https://www.mapthepaths.org.uk/?lat=51.06209564615185=-2.0421791551466137=3=0

Note the orange diagonal line. That is the line of a bridleway according to the 
Wiltshire ROW data as sourced on rowmaps.com (so not necessarily the definitive 
map). Contrast that to the brown line a bit to its north and west which is the 
bridleway as mapped on OSM, using bridleway signs apparent on the ground plus a 
bit of assumption. The brown line is a well-defined and easily-navigable (on 
horse and bike as well as foot) track, but there are no actual bridleway signs 
on the bit which diverges from the orange  line so it 'may not' be an actual 
bridleway - even though ground evidence suggests it 'probably' is. I first 
mapped this in 2010 from a ground survey,, but lacking any legal source for it 
not being a bridleway, it's remained an OSM bridleway ever since even though 
part of it technically isn't.

The orange line is a random line across a field with no evidence on the ground 
whatsoever. No signs, no gates, no stiles, no nothing - and therefore not 
mappable.

Wiltshire seems to be like this quite often, incidentally: its signposting can 
be a bit inconsistent and I've noticed quite a few divergences between 
web-based council data and ground evidence. We need the definitive data to be 
legally used in OSM in these cases; though maybe the council should really be 
trying to actually divert the path to the on-the-ground route that people 
actually use!

Nick



From: nathan case 
Sent: 08 December 2020 15:11
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Bridleway across field

That's a fair viewpoint and I'm open to changing my method.

But what would you suggest in the situation where a PROW runs through a 
building(s)? Map through it as a fully-fledged footway? Doesn't matter what 
your abilities are, you won't be able to go through there - well unless you can 
pass through walls...  At what point does a completely inaccessible, or even 
re-rerouted path (just not in the PROW data), become disused?

I am interested as a path I recently mapped is a PROW but is very dangerous to 
cross. It is now marked as disused:highway=path with 
access=discourged;designated but it is stilla PROW (byway open to all traffic 
in this case): https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/93427676

-Original Message-
From: Dave F via Talk-GB 
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 2:10 PM
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Bridleway across field

On 08/12/2020 12:36, nathan case wrote:
> but instead setting as disused:highway. This is what I tend to do when the 
> PROW route is clearly inaccessible from aerial imagery (e.g. due to new 
> buildings, or rivers).

IMO, this is bad mapping.
Just because one person concludes it isn't used by staring at photograph taken 
thousands of feet in the air doesn't mean it isn't.

Accessibility is variable & subjective. What might be a deterrent to a 
wheelchair user, could be considered easy by a high jumper.

Even if it is found to be inaccessible after an on ground survey it doesn't 
mean it's been declared disused.

DaveF

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Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

... Just to follow up on this - if it helps explain what I thought would be 
nice for OSMUK to have - something like https://freemap.sk/, which I was 
introduced to by one of the lead developers several years ago at State of the 
Map Europe in Vienna.

This is an OSM-based map site specific for Slovakia, which comes with many 
features such as information about POIs, route-finding, elevation profiles, and 
so on. I've always thought that of all the local OSM sites, this one is 
particularly nice.

It could eventually use our own rendering but for now could use something like 
Andy Townsend's style combined with contours and hillshading.

On another matter, what's the status of whether OSMUK has its own server? (I've 
lost track of this, I have to admit). Do we have a development server where we 
could begin developing something like this, initially on a small scale (e.g. 
one county)?

Thanks,
Nick



From: Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB 
Sent: 04 December 2020 15:40
To: Talk-GB 
Subject: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application

Hi,

Just floating an idea for a possible OSMUK site, namely an OSMUK 
'semi-official'  web application for walkers and hikers.

This could provide similar functionality to sites such as the Ramblers' 
Pathwatch 
(https://www.ramblers.org.uk/advice/pathwatch-report-path-features-and-problems.aspx)
 allowing users to report path problems as well as nice views, historical sites 
and so on. It could also provide info such as train or bus times (by clicking 
on a rail station), beers served (for a pub), routing via public transport to a 
given countryside location, and so on.

Reported path problems could be then made available via an API, which could be 
used by councils - and, given we have the council ROW data available to us via 
rowmaps.com  - the right of way reference could be sourced from this if it's 
not in OSM already.

For rendering, we could perhaps use Andy Townsend's SomeoneElse-style, maybe 
tweaked a little, as it appears to be the most actively maintained of all the 
England and Wales renderings. This could be setup on our own server, I seem to 
remember experimenting with this a couple of years ago when the OSMUK idea was 
first floated, on a server which had been loaned to the community (I need to 
re-check my emails, and indeed check if this server is still open for us to 
use!)

I've done similar things to this in the past on a small scale, e.g. Freemap 
(free-map.org.uk) once had the facility to add path problems, but now we have 
the OSMUK organisation in existence, maybe a semi-official OSMUK walkers' map 
with added functionality would have greater traction and it's something that 
could be launched as a project on GitHub?

Thanks,
Nick



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Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

>Some councils insist that problem reports only come through their own
>web sites, or reluctantly, by phone, and will ignore emails (which is
>the default presentation for FixMyStreet).

>The web sites generally provide structured input, whereas FixMyStreet is
>generally free text, and also, the web site sometimes bypasses the
>council contact centre, and goes direct to the out sourced contractor.

A while back I did build an app to send problem reports to Hampshire county 
council specifically, as Hampshire had a very keen and enthusiastic staff 
member. However I contacted other local councils asking for details on whether 
they had any APIs to send the data to, but either heard nothing or a response 
(as you said) that they were not so keen on input from other sources.

A shame really, an open, standard API - and accompanying open source clients to 
the API - adopted by all councils for problem reporting would be a great thing 
to have.

Nick



From: David Woolley 
Sent: 04 December 2020 16:49
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application

On 04/12/2020 16:38, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB wrote:
> However as you say council take up could be problematic. Maybe we could
> provide a link to FixMyStreet?

Some councils insist that problem reports only come through their own
web sites, or reluctantly, by phone, and will ignore emails (which is
the default presentation for FixMyStreet).

The web sites generally provide structured input, whereas FixMyStreet is
generally free text, and also, the web site sometimes bypasses the
council contact centre, and goes direct to the out sourced contractor.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

I was just thinking it might be a nice idea to have a completely open path 
problems API that could be used not only for councils but also third party 
applications.

However as you say council take up could be problematic. Maybe we could provide 
a link to FixMyStreet?

Nick



From: Jon Pennycook 
Sent: 04 December 2020 15:51
To: Nick Whitelegg 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application

For reporting problems, maybe FixMyStreet might be interested - see 
https://osm.fixmystreet.com/
They have sold a product to some councils to allow integration between the 
website and the council's (and their contractor's) back end systems.

I think that trying to encourage councils to use another API might be a 
challenge unless you offer them money.


On Fri, 4 Dec 2020, 15:43 Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB, 
mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:
Hi,

Just floating an idea for a possible OSMUK site, namely an OSMUK 
'semi-official'  web application for walkers and hikers.

This could provide similar functionality to sites such as the Ramblers' 
Pathwatch 
(https://www.ramblers.org.uk/advice/pathwatch-report-path-features-and-problems.aspx)
 allowing users to report path problems as well as nice views, historical sites 
and so on. It could also provide info such as train or bus times (by clicking 
on a rail station), beers served (for a pub), routing via public transport to a 
given countryside location, and so on.

Reported path problems could be then made available via an API, which could be 
used by councils - and, given we have the council ROW data available to us via 
rowmaps.com<http://rowmaps.com>  - the right of way reference could be sourced 
from this if it's not in OSM already.

For rendering, we could perhaps use Andy Townsend's SomeoneElse-style, maybe 
tweaked a little, as it appears to be the most actively maintained of all the 
England and Wales renderings. This could be setup on our own server, I seem to 
remember experimenting with this a couple of years ago when the OSMUK idea was 
first floated, on a server which had been loaned to the community (I need to 
re-check my emails, and indeed check if this server is still open for us to 
use!)

I've done similar things to this in the past on a small scale, e.g. Freemap 
(free-map.org.uk<http://free-map.org.uk>) once had the facility to add path 
problems, but now we have the OSMUK organisation in existence, maybe a 
semi-official OSMUK walkers' map with added functionality would have greater 
traction and it's something that could be launched as a project on GitHub?

Thanks,
Nick



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[Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

Hi,

Just floating an idea for a possible OSMUK site, namely an OSMUK 
'semi-official'  web application for walkers and hikers.

This could provide similar functionality to sites such as the Ramblers' 
Pathwatch 
(https://www.ramblers.org.uk/advice/pathwatch-report-path-features-and-problems.aspx)
 allowing users to report path problems as well as nice views, historical sites 
and so on. It could also provide info such as train or bus times (by clicking 
on a rail station), beers served (for a pub), routing via public transport to a 
given countryside location, and so on.

Reported path problems could be then made available via an API, which could be 
used by councils - and, given we have the council ROW data available to us via 
rowmaps.com  - the right of way reference could be sourced from this if it's 
not in OSM already.

For rendering, we could perhaps use Andy Townsend's SomeoneElse-style, maybe 
tweaked a little, as it appears to be the most actively maintained of all the 
England and Wales renderings. This could be setup on our own server, I seem to 
remember experimenting with this a couple of years ago when the OSMUK idea was 
first floated, on a server which had been loaned to the community (I need to 
re-check my emails, and indeed check if this server is still open for us to 
use!)

I've done similar things to this in the past on a small scale, e.g. Freemap 
(free-map.org.uk) once had the facility to add path problems, but now we have 
the OSMUK organisation in existence, maybe a semi-official OSMUK walkers' map 
with added functionality would have greater traction and it's something that 
could be launched as a project on GitHub?

Thanks,
Nick



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