Re: [Talk-GB] "secret" site

[Steve Doerr]

On 29/06/2020 22:56, Colin Smale wrote:
It was completed in 1964 as the GPO Tower. The GPO became the Post 
Office in 1969, at which time the tower was also renamed.


I stand corrected - partially. It seems to have been referred to in 
pariament as the Post Office Tower as early as 1963: https://bit.ly/2ZkUVah


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Re: [Talk-GB] "secret" site

[Colin Smale]

It was completed in 1964 as the GPO Tower. The GPO became the Post
Office in 1969, at which time the tower was also renamed. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Post_Office 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BT_Tower

On 2020-06-29 23:40, Steve Doerr wrote:

> On 29/06/2020 08:20, Ken Kilfedder wrote: 
> 
>> The GPO Tower (AKA Telecom Tower AKA BT Tower) only started to appear in 
>> public maps in 1984
> 
> I don't remember it ever being called the GPO Tower. It was always the Post 
> Office Tower.
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] "secret" site

[Steve Doerr]

On 29/06/2020 08:20, Ken Kilfedder wrote:
The GPO Tower (AKA Telecom Tower AKA BT Tower) only started to appear 
in public maps in 1984


I don't remember it ever being called the GPO Tower. It was always the 
Post Office Tower.


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Re: [Talk-GB] "secret" site

[Ken Kilfedder]

The GPO Tower (AKA Telecom Tower AKA BT Tower) only started to appear in public 
maps in 1984; despite having been completed in the 1960s and dominating the 
London skyline from many angles, taking up two whole 'blocks' on the ground in 
London W1 and containing a commercial restaurant. 

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On Sun, 28 Jun 2020, at 4:36 PM, Andy Townsend wrote:
> 

> On 28/06/2020 00:47, David Woolley wrote:
>> 
>> On the other hand, there used to be part of the North Yorkshire moors that 
>> had "undefined" written over it on OS maps.)
>> 
> Interestingly (assuming you're talking about the radar installation at RAF 
> Fylingdales), at least as of my 2006 copy of OS's OL6 map, the OS was still 
> lacking some of the detail - the military area is missing yet clearly 
> signposted onsite, and the bridleway that runs north of the site is mostly 
> signposted on the ground but mostly missing from the OS map (in OSM 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/7600885032 and 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/813719250 
> ). There 
> are still some "odd" signposts around such as 
> https://map.atownsend.org.uk/tmp/fylingdales/IMG_20200531_163604.jpg , but at 
> least no-one's pretending that there's "nothing there" - it's fairly obvious 
> in the landscape: 
> https://map.atownsend.org.uk/tmp/fylingdales/IMG_20200531_183407.jpg .

> Best Regards,

> Andy

> 

> 

> 

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Re: [Talk-GB] "secret" site

[Mark Goodge]

On 28/06/2020 15:12, Dave Love wrote:

On Sun, 2020-06-28 at 13:37 +0100, Mark Goodge wrote:


On 28/06/2020 12:18, Dave Love wrote:

On Sun, 2020-06-28 at 09:33 +0100, Robert Skedgell wrote:

Is it mapped or does it appear to be redacted on NLS's out-of-
copyright
OS maps?


Yes, for NLS and current OS displayed by MAGIC.


Is that yes, it's mapped, or yes, it's redacted?


Sorry, it's mapped.  I don't recall ever seeing anything redacted on an
OS map, but I don't remember when and what navigation we used on a
North York Moors walk.


In that case, the next question is, is it visible, either from a ground 
survey or from the overhead imagery?


If the answer is yes, then map it. You can then use your local knowledge 
to name it.


Stuff isn't generally redacted on OS maps these days, although it was, 
once. There's an interesting disconnect on the New Popular Edition here, 
where one sheet was produced while Lakenheath Airbase was still redacted 
but the neighbouring sheet was produced after it ceased to be:


http://www.npemap.org.uk/tiles/map.html#191,94,2

You can see it on the 1:10,560 maps of 1949-1969 on NLS as well:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=14=52.41301=0.56200=193=3

Although the 7th Series had the road diversion and gave a name for the 
airfield, it didn't map any of the features and gave the (misleading) 
impression that a track still crossed it:


https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=13=52.41613=0.54170=11=3

Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] "secret" site

[Andy Townsend]

On 28/06/2020 00:47, David Woolley wrote:


On the other hand, there used to be part of the North Yorkshire moors 
that had "undefined" written over it on OS maps.)


Interestingly (assuming you're talking about the radar installation at 
RAF Fylingdales), at least as of my 2006 copy of OS's OL6 map, the OS 
was still lacking some of the detail - the military area is missing yet 
clearly signposted onsite, and the bridleway that runs north of the site 
is mostly signposted on the ground but mostly missing from the OS map 
(in OSM https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/7600885032 and 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/813719250 
). 
There are still some "odd" signposts around such as 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/tmp/fylingdales/IMG_20200531_163604.jpg , 
but at least no-one's pretending that there's "nothing there" - it's 
fairly obvious in the landscape: 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/tmp/fylingdales/IMG_20200531_183407.jpg .


Best Regards,

Andy




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Re: [Talk-GB] "secret" site

[Dave Love]

On Sun, 2020-06-28 at 13:37 +0100, Mark Goodge wrote:
> 
> On 28/06/2020 12:18, Dave Love wrote:
> > On Sun, 2020-06-28 at 09:33 +0100, Robert Skedgell wrote:
> > > Is it mapped or does it appear to be redacted on NLS's out-of-
> > > copyright
> > > OS maps?
> > 
> > Yes, for NLS and current OS displayed by MAGIC.
> 
> Is that yes, it's mapped, or yes, it's redacted?

Sorry, it's mapped.  I don't recall ever seeing anything redacted on an
OS map, but I don't remember when and what navigation we used on a
North York Moors walk.

I could have said that the reservoir in question will supply many
employees of the (well-mapped!) remaining GCHQ site.  I appreciate the
significance of critical infrastructure, but the threat model isn't
like German cyclists in the '30s, and a casual attacker will poison the
obvious open one that's now used for food defence.  I don't see a real
issue mapping it, but thought it was worth opinions.


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Re: [Talk-GB] "secret" site

[Andy Mabbett]

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 00:47, David Woolley  wrote:


> there used to be part of the North Yorkshire moors
> that had "undefined" written over it on OS maps.

Unlike Sovet military maps, that had all the details...

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Re: [Talk-GB] "secret" site

[Mark Goodge]

On 28/06/2020 12:18, Dave Love wrote:

On Sun, 2020-06-28 at 09:33 +0100, Robert Skedgell wrote:

Is it mapped or does it appear to be redacted on NLS's out-of-
copyright
OS maps?


Yes, for NLS and current OS displayed by MAGIC.


Is that yes, it's mapped, or yes, it's redacted?

Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] "secret" site

[Dave Love]

On Sun, 2020-06-28 at 09:33 +0100, Robert Skedgell wrote:
> Is it mapped or does it appear to be redacted on NLS's out-of-
> copyright
> OS maps?

Yes, for NLS and current OS displayed by MAGIC.

> On 28/06/2020 09:27, Tony OSM wrote:
> > I question the meaning of the word 'secret' when used in a
> > newspaper. My
> > observations are that secret means the reporter didn't know about
> > it.
> > 
> > Tony
The reporter was in one of the structures when it was drained.  [The
quality of local news reporting may be higher than much else because
the audience is people who are more likely in a better position to
know/check.]

> > On 28/06/2020 00:47, David Woolley wrote:

> > > How would another mapper verify this?  I normally think that
> > > people
> > > interpret the map only what's on the ground rule too literally,
> > > but in
> > > this case, I'd suggest the moral thing to do is to ignore your
> > > local
> > > knowledge an only map what can be seen, without guessing its
> > > significance.

They could look it up in the HE listing.  (Obviously I traced the
outline from imagery, not the OS data.)  I was actually mapping the
local listed buildings, partly to point the local history society to
OSM rather than Google maps on their web site.

> > > (There are some road signs entitled "secret bunker", e.g. for
> > > Kelvedon
> > > Hatch, but I don't think this is the case here.
> > > 
> > > On the other hand, there used to be part of the North Yorkshire
> > > moors
> > > that had "undefined" written over it on OS maps.)

With good vantage points around the obvious features, as for the
obvious green building that used to be below the area of the
reservoirs...  (For historical amusement, I don't off-hand know what
appeared there on 1970s maps, though I think there's one around
somewhere.  The OS7 and NLS versions may not be recent enough.)


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Re: [Talk-GB] "secret" site

[Robert Skedgell]

Is it mapped or does it appear to be redacted on NLS's out-of-copyright
OS maps?

On 28/06/2020 09:27, Tony OSM wrote:
> I question the meaning of the word 'secret' when used in a newspaper. My
> observations are that secret means the reporter didn't know about it.
> 
> Tony
> 
> On 28/06/2020 00:47, David Woolley wrote:
>> On 27/06/2020 23:37, Dave Love wrote:
>>> I was going to map a covered reservoir round here that I've known from
>>> my youth, but I happened to find an article about it from the local
>>> paper suggesting the location is secret, though it's listed in
>>> Historic England.  (It's not far from a "sensitive government
>>> establishment" that no-one locally knew about before it ceased to be
>>> secret :-/)
>>> Should I not map it, or pretend I didn't see the article?
>>>
>>
>> How would another mapper verify this?  I normally think that people
>> interpret the map only what's on the ground rule too literally, but in
>> this case, I'd suggest the moral thing to do is to ignore your local
>> knowledge an only map what can be seen, without guessing its
>> significance.
>>
>> (There are some road signs entitled "secret bunker", e.g. for Kelvedon
>> Hatch, but I don't think this is the case here.
>>
>> On the other hand, there used to be part of the North Yorkshire moors
>> that had "undefined" written over it on OS maps.)
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] "secret" site

[Tony OSM]

I question the meaning of the word 'secret' when used in a newspaper. My 
observations are that secret means the reporter didn't know about it.


Tony

On 28/06/2020 00:47, David Woolley wrote:

On 27/06/2020 23:37, Dave Love wrote:

I was going to map a covered reservoir round here that I've known from
my youth, but I happened to find an article about it from the local
paper suggesting the location is secret, though it's listed in
Historic England.  (It's not far from a "sensitive government
establishment" that no-one locally knew about before it ceased to be
secret :-/)
Should I not map it, or pretend I didn't see the article?



How would another mapper verify this?  I normally think that people 
interpret the map only what's on the ground rule too literally, but in 
this case, I'd suggest the moral thing to do is to ignore your local 
knowledge an only map what can be seen, without guessing its 
significance.


(There are some road signs entitled "secret bunker", e.g. for Kelvedon 
Hatch, but I don't think this is the case here.


On the other hand, there used to be part of the North Yorkshire moors 
that had "undefined" written over it on OS maps.)


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Re: [Talk-GB] "secret" site

[David Woolley]

On 27/06/2020 23:37, Dave Love wrote:

I was going to map a covered reservoir round here that I've known from
my youth, but I happened to find an article about it from the local
paper suggesting the location is secret, though it's listed in
Historic England.  (It's not far from a "sensitive government
establishment" that no-one locally knew about before it ceased to be
secret :-/)
Should I not map it, or pretend I didn't see the article?



How would another mapper verify this?  I normally think that people 
interpret the map only what's on the ground rule too literally, but in 
this case, I'd suggest the moral thing to do is to ignore your local 
knowledge an only map what can be seen, without guessing its significance.


(There are some road signs entitled "secret bunker", e.g. for Kelvedon 
Hatch, but I don't think this is the case here.


On the other hand, there used to be part of the North Yorkshire moors 
that had "undefined" written over it on OS maps.)


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[Talk-GB] "secret" site

[Dave Love]

I was going to map a covered reservoir round here that I've known from
my youth, but I happened to find an article about it from the local
paper suggesting the location is secret, though it's listed in
Historic England.  (It's not far from a "sensitive government
establishment" that no-one locally knew about before it ceased to be
secret :-/)
Should I not map it, or pretend I didn't see the article?  


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