Re: [Talk-GB] Farmland (crop or animals)?

[Warin]

Humm, warning, pedantic hat on...

If you  cannot determine what it is used for .. don't use the tag landuse.

For the presence of vegetation use the key 'natural' (it applies to both 
natural and unnatural things!) and if you have problems with that (like 
me with unnatural things being tagged 'natural) then use the landcover 
tag (unapproved).



On 25/05/19 16:06, Martin Wynne wrote:
Apart from the specialised tags such as "orchard" there appears to be 
only 2 tags available for general agricultural land:


farmland

which I have taken to mean arable land. i.e. land suitable for the 
growing of crops, even if currently used as pasture for grazing by 
livestock; and


meadow

which I have taken to mean other land which has no history of being 
used for crops, usually because it is unsuitable in some way -- too 
steep or uneven, liable to flooding ("water meadows"), poor soil, 
presence of too many trees, areas of scrub, poor drainage, etc. In 
many cases used only for sheep.


Here are a few pics of what I would tag as "meadow" even if not 
technically "unimproved grassland" or whatever is the proper 
definition of a meadow:


 http:/85a.uk/meadow1_960x640.jpg

 http:/85a.uk/meadow3_960x640.jpg

 http:/85a.uk/meadow4_960x640.jpg

 http:/85a.uk/meadow2_960x640.jpg

If "meadow" is not the correct tag, what is? Do we need a new tag? 
"farmland" doesn't seem right -- none of the above is going to become 
a field of potatoes any time soon.


landcover=grass (and I hate it, but for the rendering landuse=grass) for 
the landcover.


But to me that is landuse=farmland, surface=grass, product=? sheep? 
wool? wool;sheep?
Landuse=meadow is not something I'd use, rather than being a use of the 
land it is someone tagging what they see - a land cover.


As for the need to have a specific tag for this use of the land ... well 
there are vast differences between farm land used for grazing cattle in 
Australia e.g.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Cooplacurripa_Station%285%29.jpg/450px-Cooplacurripa_Station%285%29.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/Anna-Creek-homestead-1.JPG/405px-Anna-Creek-homestead-1.JPG

And the Anna Creek one will change with some rain.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Farmland (crop or animals)?

[Martin Wynne]

Apart from the specialised tags such as "orchard" there appears to be 
only 2 tags available for general agricultural land:


farmland

which I have taken to mean arable land. i.e. land suitable for the 
growing of crops, even if currently used as pasture for grazing by 
livestock; and


meadow

which I have taken to mean other land which has no history of being used 
for crops, usually because it is unsuitable in some way -- too steep or 
uneven, liable to flooding ("water meadows"), poor soil, presence of too 
many trees, areas of scrub, poor drainage, etc. In many cases used only 
for sheep.


Here are a few pics of what I would tag as "meadow" even if not 
technically "unimproved grassland" or whatever is the proper definition 
of a meadow:


 http:/85a.uk/meadow1_960x640.jpg

 http:/85a.uk/meadow3_960x640.jpg

 http:/85a.uk/meadow4_960x640.jpg

 http:/85a.uk/meadow2_960x640.jpg

If "meadow" is not the correct tag, what is? Do we need a new tag? 
"farmland" doesn't seem right -- none of the above is going to become a 
field of potatoes any time soon.


In the last pic, the hedge clearly marks the boundary between "meadow" 
in the foreground and the fields of rapeseeed beyond. To use the same 
"farmland" tag for both wouldn't properly describe the landscape. But 
there are vast areas of OSM which are so described.


cheers,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Farmland (crop or animals)?

[Warin]

Humm What is it that needs to be tagged? Possibly some sub tags for

tillage=yes/no/yearly/* ? to indicate if ploughed and if known how 
frequently


produce:category=animal/plant to indicate the broad group of produce?

This could then be applied to any 'landuse' ... no matter how it is tagged.


On 25/05/19 06:57, Edward Catmur via Talk-GB wrote:
Fair enough, I agree that a wildflower meadow is a very pleasant place 
to be. However, I would still be more concerned to avoid the 
unpleasantness of walking through cropland where the path is variously 
ploughed under, utterly obscured by wheat or maize, or in the best 
case surfaced with heavy clay that clings to one's shoes or boots.


On Fri, 24 May 2019, 16:22 Philip Barnes, > wrote:




On Friday, 24 May 2019, SK53 wrote:
> As a walker I appreciate walking through a real hay meadow full of
> attractive flowers rather than a sterile green desert of rye grass.

And as a walker a real meadow is a very nice place to sit down and
enjoy a relaxing lunch or coffee break.

Phil (trigpoint)

> Dudley Ibbett made this point long ago about the Peak District. The
> difference is roughly equivalent to walking through a dark
lifeless spruce
> plantation and an ancient oak wood.
>
> As a naturalist these precious remnants are pretty much the only
places
> where many flowers, insects and birds are likely to be seen.
>
> Jerry
>
> On Fri, 24 May 2019 at 11:59, Edward Catmur via Talk-GB <
> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org > wrote:
>
> > As a walker, the most important distinction in agricultural
land (not
> > including orchards) is whether it is tilled or otherwise
reduced to bare
> > earth, or whether grass is allowed to establish permanent root
systems. How
> > long or varied the grass is allowed to get really doesn't
concern me,
> > especially as that can change in a matter of months after a
wet spring or
> > an enthusiastic flock of sheep have been through. The exact
terminology
> > used doesn't really concern me, but where I grew up "meadow"
was the
> > colloquial term for pasture, even close cropped grass.
> >
> > On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 11:07 AM Andy Townsend
mailto:ajt1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >> On 24/05/2019 10:43, Gregory Marler wrote:
> >> > What is going on with landuse=farmland, and what are we
going to do?
> >> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dfarmland
> >> >
> >> With regard to tagging, I agree with a lot of what you say
there, but I
> >> suspect that the first thing to do is to talk to the wiki
editor about
> >> it.  It may be that they thought that they were just changing
the wiki
> >> in line with actual usage, it may be that they've actually
discussed it
> >> with lots of other people elsewhere first (just not visible
at first
> >> glance to me).
> >>
> >> For international tagging discussions the tagging list is
probably the
> >> best* mailing list, but it's probably worth also mentioning
on the wiki
> >> talk page for the tag too (and maybe the talk page for the
wiki editor).
> >>
> >> Best Regards,
> >>
> >> Andy
> >>
> >> * or maybe "least worst" - there's a discussion there about
how terrible
> >> mailing list discussions are compared to controlled spaces on the
> >> tagging list at the moment - but that's more to do with what
happens
> >> when people who don't agree (and don't even agree how to talk
about
> >> things) encounter people who don't agree with each other.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___



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Re: [Talk-GB] Farmland (crop or animals)?

[Edward Catmur via Talk-GB]

Fair enough, I agree that a wildflower meadow is a very pleasant place to
be. However, I would still be more concerned to avoid the unpleasantness of
walking through cropland where the path is variously ploughed under,
utterly obscured by wheat or maize, or in the best case surfaced with heavy
clay that clings to one's shoes or boots.

On Fri, 24 May 2019, 16:22 Philip Barnes,  wrote:

>
>
> On Friday, 24 May 2019, SK53 wrote:
> > As a walker I appreciate walking through a real hay meadow full of
> > attractive flowers rather than a sterile green desert of rye grass.
>
> And as a walker a real meadow is a very nice place to sit down and enjoy a
> relaxing lunch or coffee break.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
> > Dudley Ibbett made this point long ago about the Peak District. The
> > difference is roughly equivalent to walking through a dark lifeless
> spruce
> > plantation and an ancient oak wood.
> >
> > As a naturalist these precious remnants are pretty much the only places
> > where many flowers, insects and birds are likely to be seen.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > On Fri, 24 May 2019 at 11:59, Edward Catmur via Talk-GB <
> > talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> >
> > > As a walker, the most important distinction in agricultural land (not
> > > including orchards) is whether it is tilled or otherwise reduced to
> bare
> > > earth, or whether grass is allowed to establish permanent root
> systems. How
> > > long or varied the grass is allowed to get really doesn't concern me,
> > > especially as that can change in a matter of months after a wet spring
> or
> > > an enthusiastic flock of sheep have been through. The exact terminology
> > > used doesn't really concern me, but where I grew up "meadow" was the
> > > colloquial term for pasture, even close cropped grass.
> > >
> > > On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 11:07 AM Andy Townsend 
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 24/05/2019 10:43, Gregory Marler wrote:
> > >> > What is going on with landuse=farmland, and what are we going to do?
> > >> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dfarmland
> > >> >
> > >> With regard to tagging, I agree with a lot of what you say there, but
> I
> > >> suspect that the first thing to do is to talk to the wiki editor about
> > >> it.  It may be that they thought that they were just changing the wiki
> > >> in line with actual usage, it may be that they've actually discussed
> it
> > >> with lots of other people elsewhere first (just not visible at first
> > >> glance to me).
> > >>
> > >> For international tagging discussions the tagging list is probably the
> > >> best* mailing list, but it's probably worth also mentioning on the
> wiki
> > >> talk page for the tag too (and maybe the talk page for the wiki
> editor).
> > >>
> > >> Best Regards,
> > >>
> > >> Andy
> > >>
> > >> * or maybe "least worst" - there's a discussion there about how
> terrible
> > >> mailing list discussions are compared to controlled spaces on the
> > >> tagging list at the moment - but that's more to do with what happens
> > >> when people who don't agree (and don't even agree how to talk about
> > >> things) encounter people who don't agree with each other.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> Talk-GB mailing list
> > >> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> > >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> > >>
> > > ___
> > > Talk-GB mailing list
> > > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> > >
> >
>
> --
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Re: [Talk-GB] Farmland (crop or animals)?

[Philip Barnes]

On Friday, 24 May 2019, SK53 wrote:
> As a walker I appreciate walking through a real hay meadow full of
> attractive flowers rather than a sterile green desert of rye grass. 

And as a walker a real meadow is a very nice place to sit down and enjoy a 
relaxing lunch or coffee break.

Phil (trigpoint)
 
> Dudley Ibbett made this point long ago about the Peak District. The
> difference is roughly equivalent to walking through a dark lifeless spruce
> plantation and an ancient oak wood.
> 
> As a naturalist these precious remnants are pretty much the only places
> where many flowers, insects and birds are likely to be seen.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> On Fri, 24 May 2019 at 11:59, Edward Catmur via Talk-GB <
> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> 
> > As a walker, the most important distinction in agricultural land (not
> > including orchards) is whether it is tilled or otherwise reduced to bare
> > earth, or whether grass is allowed to establish permanent root systems. How
> > long or varied the grass is allowed to get really doesn't concern me,
> > especially as that can change in a matter of months after a wet spring or
> > an enthusiastic flock of sheep have been through. The exact terminology
> > used doesn't really concern me, but where I grew up "meadow" was the
> > colloquial term for pasture, even close cropped grass.
> >
> > On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 11:07 AM Andy Townsend  wrote:
> >
> >> On 24/05/2019 10:43, Gregory Marler wrote:
> >> > What is going on with landuse=farmland, and what are we going to do?
> >> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dfarmland
> >> >
> >> With regard to tagging, I agree with a lot of what you say there, but I
> >> suspect that the first thing to do is to talk to the wiki editor about
> >> it.  It may be that they thought that they were just changing the wiki
> >> in line with actual usage, it may be that they've actually discussed it
> >> with lots of other people elsewhere first (just not visible at first
> >> glance to me).
> >>
> >> For international tagging discussions the tagging list is probably the
> >> best* mailing list, but it's probably worth also mentioning on the wiki
> >> talk page for the tag too (and maybe the talk page for the wiki editor).
> >>
> >> Best Regards,
> >>
> >> Andy
> >>
> >> * or maybe "least worst" - there's a discussion there about how terrible
> >> mailing list discussions are compared to controlled spaces on the
> >> tagging list at the moment - but that's more to do with what happens
> >> when people who don't agree (and don't even agree how to talk about
> >> things) encounter people who don't agree with each other.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Talk-GB mailing list
> >> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> >>
> > ___
> > Talk-GB mailing list
> > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> >
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] Farmland (crop or animals)?

[SK53]

As a walker I appreciate walking through a real hay meadow full of
attractive flowers rather than a sterile green desert of rye grass. I think
Dudley Ibbett made this point long ago about the Peak District. The
difference is roughly equivalent to walking through a dark lifeless spruce
plantation and an ancient oak wood.

As a naturalist these precious remnants are pretty much the only places
where many flowers, insects and birds are likely to be seen.

Jerry

On Fri, 24 May 2019 at 11:59, Edward Catmur via Talk-GB <
talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> As a walker, the most important distinction in agricultural land (not
> including orchards) is whether it is tilled or otherwise reduced to bare
> earth, or whether grass is allowed to establish permanent root systems. How
> long or varied the grass is allowed to get really doesn't concern me,
> especially as that can change in a matter of months after a wet spring or
> an enthusiastic flock of sheep have been through. The exact terminology
> used doesn't really concern me, but where I grew up "meadow" was the
> colloquial term for pasture, even close cropped grass.
>
> On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 11:07 AM Andy Townsend  wrote:
>
>> On 24/05/2019 10:43, Gregory Marler wrote:
>> > What is going on with landuse=farmland, and what are we going to do?
>> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dfarmland
>> >
>> With regard to tagging, I agree with a lot of what you say there, but I
>> suspect that the first thing to do is to talk to the wiki editor about
>> it.  It may be that they thought that they were just changing the wiki
>> in line with actual usage, it may be that they've actually discussed it
>> with lots of other people elsewhere first (just not visible at first
>> glance to me).
>>
>> For international tagging discussions the tagging list is probably the
>> best* mailing list, but it's probably worth also mentioning on the wiki
>> talk page for the tag too (and maybe the talk page for the wiki editor).
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> * or maybe "least worst" - there's a discussion there about how terrible
>> mailing list discussions are compared to controlled spaces on the
>> tagging list at the moment - but that's more to do with what happens
>> when people who don't agree (and don't even agree how to talk about
>> things) encounter people who don't agree with each other.
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Farmland (crop or animals)?

[SK53]

It is well-known that meadows (hay meadows) are now a vanishingly small
part of the British landscape. For instance in Nottinghamshire we have
around 28 ha of MG4 grassland (the typical meadow plant community for
meadows in the East Midlands).

Work

by my friend Martin Allen indicates that Natural England's figures for the
main meadow types are hopelessly optimistic, and there is no money to
actually develop good quality data on what exists. Many, but not all,
surviving meadows (unimproved grasslands which have not been ploughed) will
have some degree of protection: SSSI or nomination as a Local Wildlife Site
(although the latter is not much). The key book on the subject is
Peterken's Meadows 
in the series published by Bloomsbury (formerly British Wildlife
Publishing).

Similar issues exist in other parts of the UK, John Falkner, former head of
the NIEA, jokes that Perennial Rye-grass, not Flax, is now Northern
Irelands national plant. Undisturbed grasslands are now often limited to
coastal zones.

The loss of meadows since WWII means that many of us are not very familiar
with them. Loose usage of the term meadow, for instance in 'wildflower
meadow', or, for any patch of grassland, or, even, on OSM, means that
meadow is probably no longer a terribly useful term.

The phrases used in the ecological literature are "unimproved grassland"
(acidic, neutral or basic) and Martin's suggestion "ancient grassland".
Typical modern pasturage will be leys (typically Perennial Rye-grass
re-sown periodically), and fertilised and thus improved grassland. In
practice they are easy to tell apart on the ground: unimproved grassland
will obviously have many species of grasses & forbs (non-grass herbs aka
weeds), whereas improved grassland is often apparently a monoculture with
very few weed species (and these will be different from those in unimproved
grassland). Improved grassland is often a rather lurid green colour. The
half-way house - semi-improved grassland - is rather harder to find simple
rules of thumb.

I strongly believe we should try & map REAL meadows: they are a precious
and diminishing resource.

Jerry
Either way, as Ian points out on crop rotation, mapping things as
landuse=meadow from aerial imagery

True meadows which used to be common in the UK

On Fri, 24 May 2019 at 11:01, David Woolley 
wrote:

> On 24/05/2019 10:43, Gregory Marler wrote:
> > to me, meadow is a different to the common farm fields that have animals
> > in. A meadow is likely longer grass, or encouraged to get long. It might
> > be for flowers/wildlife rather than animals.
>
> Meadows, in farms, in a land use context, are for producing hay.
> Deliberately encouraging wild flowers and animals, would be a park type
> usage, not a farm type usage.
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Farmland (crop or animals)?

[Edward Catmur via Talk-GB]

As a walker, the most important distinction in agricultural land (not
including orchards) is whether it is tilled or otherwise reduced to bare
earth, or whether grass is allowed to establish permanent root systems. How
long or varied the grass is allowed to get really doesn't concern me,
especially as that can change in a matter of months after a wet spring or
an enthusiastic flock of sheep have been through. The exact terminology
used doesn't really concern me, but where I grew up "meadow" was the
colloquial term for pasture, even close cropped grass.

On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 11:07 AM Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 24/05/2019 10:43, Gregory Marler wrote:
> > What is going on with landuse=farmland, and what are we going to do?
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dfarmland
> >
> With regard to tagging, I agree with a lot of what you say there, but I
> suspect that the first thing to do is to talk to the wiki editor about
> it.  It may be that they thought that they were just changing the wiki
> in line with actual usage, it may be that they've actually discussed it
> with lots of other people elsewhere first (just not visible at first
> glance to me).
>
> For international tagging discussions the tagging list is probably the
> best* mailing list, but it's probably worth also mentioning on the wiki
> talk page for the tag too (and maybe the talk page for the wiki editor).
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
> * or maybe "least worst" - there's a discussion there about how terrible
> mailing list discussions are compared to controlled spaces on the
> tagging list at the moment - but that's more to do with what happens
> when people who don't agree (and don't even agree how to talk about
> things) encounter people who don't agree with each other.
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Farmland (crop or animals)?

[Andy Townsend]

On 24/05/2019 10:43, Gregory Marler wrote:

What is going on with landuse=farmland, and what are we going to do?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dfarmland

With regard to tagging, I agree with a lot of what you say there, but I 
suspect that the first thing to do is to talk to the wiki editor about 
it.  It may be that they thought that they were just changing the wiki 
in line with actual usage, it may be that they've actually discussed it 
with lots of other people elsewhere first (just not visible at first 
glance to me).


For international tagging discussions the tagging list is probably the 
best* mailing list, but it's probably worth also mentioning on the wiki 
talk page for the tag too (and maybe the talk page for the wiki editor).


Best Regards,

Andy

* or maybe "least worst" - there's a discussion there about how terrible 
mailing list discussions are compared to controlled spaces on the 
tagging list at the moment - but that's more to do with what happens 
when people who don't agree (and don't even agree how to talk about 
things) encounter people who don't agree with each other.




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Re: [Talk-GB] Farmland (crop or animals)?

[Philip Barnes]

I have used farmland=pasture and farmland=arable to cover these cases.

Other cases could be farmland=vineyard.

Sadly too many mappers use meadow to describe pasture which is a shame as it 
would be good to be able to find real meadows. Obviously these cannot easily be 
armchaired.

I don't really understand why meadow was hijacked. 

Phil (trigpoint) 

On Friday, 24 May 2019, Gregory Marler wrote:
> What is going on with landuse=farmland, and what are we going to do?
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dfarmland
> 
> It had a classic "map for the renderer" and "no blank spots on the map"
> problem. Armchair mappers found it important to map large swathes of
> farmland, which I don't think added much. The default style helped by
> making it a very subtle colour.
> It was always land that is used for tillage(crops) or pasture(animals).
> There was some thought to add tagging of crop=yes or animal=* to be more
> specific if desired.
> 
> I have then started seeing people map a lot of landuse=meadow. I disagreed,
> but it seems the wiki page was changed in November. I don't think there was
> any discussion, and Harry even clarified the wording in December.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Alanduse%3Dfarmland=revision=1689614=1663478
> 
> To me, meadow is a different to the common farm fields that have animals
> in. A meadow is likely longer grass, or encouraged to get long. It might be
> for flowers/wildlife rather than animals.
> 
> Most importantly, this is going to cause confusion and disparity over what
> is being mapped and how/why.
> 
> From Durham,
> Gregory.
> 
> -- 
> Gregory Marler
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] Farmland (crop or animals)?

[David Woolley]

On 24/05/2019 10:43, Gregory Marler wrote:
to me, meadow is a different to the common farm fields that have animals 
in. A meadow is likely longer grass, or encouraged to get long. It might 
be for flowers/wildlife rather than animals.


Meadows, in farms, in a land use context, are for producing hay. 
Deliberately encouraging wild flowers and animals, would be a park type 
usage, not a farm type usage.


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[Talk-GB] Farmland (crop or animals)?

[Gregory Marler]

What is going on with landuse=farmland, and what are we going to do?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dfarmland

It had a classic "map for the renderer" and "no blank spots on the map"
problem. Armchair mappers found it important to map large swathes of
farmland, which I don't think added much. The default style helped by
making it a very subtle colour.
It was always land that is used for tillage(crops) or pasture(animals).
There was some thought to add tagging of crop=yes or animal=* to be more
specific if desired.

I have then started seeing people map a lot of landuse=meadow. I disagreed,
but it seems the wiki page was changed in November. I don't think there was
any discussion, and Harry even clarified the wording in December.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Alanduse%3Dfarmland=revision=1689614=1663478

To me, meadow is a different to the common farm fields that have animals
in. A meadow is likely longer grass, or encouraged to get long. It might be
for flowers/wildlife rather than animals.

Most importantly, this is going to cause confusion and disparity over what
is being mapped and how/why.

>From Durham,
Gregory.

-- 
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