Re: [Talk-GB] PRoW changes

[Dave F]

Hi

1. & 4.DMMOs, of course, have a process. OSM should only be interested 
in them once they been confirmed.


2. & 5. I'd be happy with them on paper. Their accuracy isn't great to 
start with & every iteration looses detail. Amending the route of paths 
is definitely not an armchair exercise. (Which is why I'm miffed an 
experienced mapper close to me is amending on site surveyed paths to 
align with DMs)


DaveF

On 31/05/2017 12:30, Adam Snape wrote:

Hi again,

Very much appreciate the effort being made on improving our coverage 
of Rights of Way. It is a worthwhile area for OSMUK to look at.


Here are some further thoughts:

1., Dave refers to copies of Definitive Map Modification Orders 
(DMMOs) on council websites. They are obliged to publish a register of 
DMMO applications on their websites: 
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/2461/regulation/2/made Whilst 
these are a great source of information their use is limited for OSM 
purposes because an application to change a map is just that, an 
application. It may or may not be successful (see also point 4).


2. The Orders are paper based (usually scanned for uploading), not GIS 
files which could be imported straight into OSM.


3. Many, many counties have yet to release ROW information under the 
OSM-compatible Open Government Licence (thank you Robert for 
clarifying this for me). Very few have released the accompanying 
Definitive Statements. I suggest that acquiring nationwide 
availability of at least the Definitive Maps (and preferably the 
statements where they exist in a digital form) is a much more urgent 
priority than the relatively small proportion of paths that have been 
subject to recent changes for which we do not yet have updated shape 
files.


4. If we do end up receiving copies of Orders, like the Ramblers, 
PNFS, CTC, BHS  et al it is important that whoever deals with it 
should understand the process and that we should not be altering our 
mapping for everything we receive. For example, just making the DMMO 
does not change the definitive map. There is a period for objections 
to be received in response to the Order and possible referral to the 
Secretary of State. The final stage is for an order to be confirmed. 
It is ony this final stage which actually changes the definitive line 
or status of the path. There may be many years (not uncommonly a 
decade or more) between the DMMO application, the making of the Order, 
and its confirmation.


5. Finally, I'd be wary of 'armchair mapping' recent changes without a 
ground survey. The advantage of being up to date ceases to be a 
benefit when changes have not yet been effected on the ground.


Hope that helps.

Kind regards,

Adam

On 30 May 2017 at 14:13, Adam Snape > wrote:


Hi,

One thing that springs to mind is that these organisations receive
orders as they are statutory consultees who may wish to object to
the order. It isn't just to keep these organisations up to date. I
suspect a request by osm to be notified of changes just to keep
might get the response that orders are already available to the
public.

It seems what we're really asking for is an equivalent of
councils' obligation to send Ordnance Survey notification of
confirmed changes rather than their obligation to notify statutory
consultees throughout the DMMO process.

Adam

On 29 May 2017 12:04 p.m., "Brian Prangle" mailto:bpran...@gmail.com>> wrote:

There's been a suggestion that OSMUK lobbiesfor the statutory
right to receive copies of the legal orders which change
Public Rights of Way as it can be slow for any official
changes to make their way onto the Definitive Map and then be
picked up by mappers. There is already legislation that allows
various organisations the right to receive copies of the legal
orders that effect changes to Public Rights of Way. The list
is contained in Schedule 6 of the Wildlife and Countryside
(Definitive Maps and Statements) Regulations 1993:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/12/schedule/6/made


These are:

Auto-Cycle Union

British Horse Society

Byways and Bridleways Trust, Open Spaces Society

Ramblers Association

British Driving Society

Cyclists Touring Club

Peak and Northern Footpaths Society

Chiltern Society

Welsh Trail Riders' Association

The Board has discussed this and agreed we should do it. I've
volunteered to lead this activity.  We think that we would
need to convince the relevant Secretary of State that it was a
good idea, and get them to amend/re-issue the Statutory
Instrument linked above that includes the list. From the
introductory text, it looks like it's jointly the Secretaries
o

Re: [Talk-GB] PRoW changes

[Adam Snape]

Hi again,

Very much appreciate the effort being made on improving our coverage of
Rights of Way. It is a worthwhile area for OSMUK to look at.

Here are some further thoughts:

1., Dave refers to copies of Definitive Map Modification Orders (DMMOs) on
council websites. They are obliged to publish a register of DMMO
applications on their websites:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/2461/regulation/2/made Whilst these
are a great source of information their use is limited for OSM purposes
because an application to change a map is just that, an application. It may
or may not be successful (see also point 4).

2. The Orders are paper based (usually scanned for uploading), not GIS
files which could be imported straight into OSM.

3. Many, many counties have yet to release ROW information under the
OSM-compatible Open Government Licence (thank you Robert for clarifying
this for me). Very few have released the accompanying Definitive
Statements. I suggest that acquiring nationwide availability of at least
the Definitive Maps (and preferably the statements where they exist in a
digital form) is a much more urgent priority than the relatively small
proportion of paths that have been subject to recent changes for which we
do not yet have updated shape files.

4. If we do end up receiving copies of Orders, like the Ramblers, PNFS,
CTC, BHS  et al it is important that whoever deals with it should
understand the process and that we should not be altering our mapping for
everything we receive. For example, just making the DMMO does not change
the definitive map. There is a period for objections to be received in
response to the Order and possible referral to the Secretary of State. The
final stage is for an order to be confirmed. It is ony this final stage
which actually changes the definitive line or status of the path. There may
be many years (not uncommonly a decade or more) between the DMMO
application, the making of the Order, and its confirmation.

5. Finally, I'd be wary of 'armchair mapping' recent changes without a
ground survey. The advantage of being up to date ceases to be a benefit
when changes have not yet been effected on the ground.

Hope that helps.

Kind regards,

Adam

On 30 May 2017 at 14:13, Adam Snape  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> One thing that springs to mind is that these organisations receive orders
> as they are statutory consultees who may wish to object to the order. It
> isn't just to keep these organisations up to date. I suspect a request by
> osm to be notified of changes just to keep might get the response that
> orders are already available to the public.
>
> It seems what we're really asking for is an equivalent of councils'
> obligation to send Ordnance Survey notification of confirmed changes rather
> than their obligation to notify statutory consultees throughout the DMMO
> process.
>
> Adam
>
> On 29 May 2017 12:04 p.m., "Brian Prangle"  wrote:
>
>> There's been a suggestion that OSMUK lobbies  for the statutory right to
>> receive copies of the legal orders which change Public Rights of Way as it
>> can be slow for any official changes to make their way onto the Definitive
>> Map and then be picked up by mappers. There is already legislation that
>> allows various organisations the right to receive copies of the legal
>> orders that effect changes to Public Rights of Way. The list is contained
>> in Schedule 6 of the Wildlife and Countryside (Definitive Maps and
>> Statements) Regulations 1993: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/
>> uksi/1993/12/schedule/6/made
>>
>> These are:
>>
>> Auto-Cycle Union
>>
>> British Horse Society
>>
>> Byways and Bridleways Trust, Open Spaces Society
>>
>> Ramblers Association
>>
>> British Driving Society
>>
>> Cyclists Touring Club
>>
>> Peak and Northern Footpaths Society
>>
>> Chiltern Society
>>
>> Welsh Trail Riders' Association
>>
>> The Board has discussed this and agreed we should do it. I've volunteered
>> to lead this activity.  We think that we would need to convince the
>> relevant Secretary of State that it was a good idea, and get them to
>> amend/re-issue the Statutory Instrument linked above that includes the
>> list. From the introductory text, it looks like it's jointly the
>> Secretaries of State for the Environment and Wales.
>>
>> My thinking on how we should approach this is first to contact each of
>> the organisations who are already on the list and ask
>>
>>1. Were they added at the time the legislation was passed or
>>subsequently?
>>2. If subsequently, do they know the procedure?
>>3. How is the data provided to them?
>>4. What licence terms does it have?
>>5.  If it's open data would they be willing to share it with us until
>>we get on the list?
>>
>> If anybody has any knowledge or experience of this legislation or any
>> contacts at these organisations or any other  ideas on how to approach
>> this campaign we'd love to know either here or on the OSMUK Loomio
>> 

Re: [Talk-GB] PRoW changes

[Adam Snape]

Hi,

One thing that springs to mind is that these organisations receive orders
as they are statutory consultees who may wish to object to the order. It
isn't just to keep these organisations up to date. I suspect a request by
osm to be notified of changes just to keep might get the response that
orders are already available to the public.

It seems what we're really asking for is an equivalent of councils'
obligation to send Ordnance Survey notification of confirmed changes rather
than their obligation to notify statutory consultees throughout the DMMO
process.

Adam

On 29 May 2017 12:04 p.m., "Brian Prangle"  wrote:

> There's been a suggestion that OSMUK lobbies  for the statutory right to
> receive copies of the legal orders which change Public Rights of Way as it
> can be slow for any official changes to make their way onto the Definitive
> Map and then be picked up by mappers. There is already legislation that
> allows various organisations the right to receive copies of the legal
> orders that effect changes to Public Rights of Way. The list is contained
> in Schedule 6 of the Wildlife and Countryside (Definitive Maps and
> Statements) Regulations 1993: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/
> uksi/1993/12/schedule/6/made
>
> These are:
>
> Auto-Cycle Union
>
> British Horse Society
>
> Byways and Bridleways Trust, Open Spaces Society
>
> Ramblers Association
>
> British Driving Society
>
> Cyclists Touring Club
>
> Peak and Northern Footpaths Society
>
> Chiltern Society
>
> Welsh Trail Riders' Association
>
> The Board has discussed this and agreed we should do it. I've volunteered
> to lead this activity.  We think that we would need to convince the
> relevant Secretary of State that it was a good idea, and get them to
> amend/re-issue the Statutory Instrument linked above that includes the
> list. From the introductory text, it looks like it's jointly the
> Secretaries of State for the Environment and Wales.
>
> My thinking on how we should approach this is first to contact each of the
> organisations who are already on the list and ask
>
>1. Were they added at the time the legislation was passed or
>subsequently?
>2. If subsequently, do they know the procedure?
>3. How is the data provided to them?
>4. What licence terms does it have?
>5.  If it's open data would they be willing to share it with us until
>we get on the list?
>
> If anybody has any knowledge or experience of this legislation or any
> contacts at these organisations or any other  ideas on how to approach
> this campaign we'd love to know either here or on the OSMUK Loomio
>  discussion site.
>
>
> Regards
>
>
> Brian
>
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>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] PRoW changes

[Philip Barnes]

On Tuesday, 30 May 2017, Gervase Markham wrote:
> On 29/05/17 12:02, Brian Prangle wrote:
> > There's been a suggestion that OSMUK lobbies  for the statutory right to
> > receive copies of the legal orders which change Public Rights of Way as
> > it can be slow for any official changes to make their way onto the
> > Definitive Map and then be picked up by mappers. 
> 
> Why not instead lobby for them to be published somewhere (with a feed)?
> 
The problem here is who is going to compile the feed, they are published by 
very many different highway authorities. I assume most publish these on their 
websites which local mappers obviously can and do check.

The Ramblers Association do receive notifications which are sent to the local 
area. I don't know if they are also sent to Central Office, but will find out.

As far as I am aware  Ramblers areas are organized along highway authority 
boundaries. An area can contain more than one Highway Authority.

Phil (trigpoint)
-- 
Sent from my Jolla
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Re: [Talk-GB] PRoW changes

[Gervase Markham]

On 29/05/17 12:02, Brian Prangle wrote:
> There's been a suggestion that OSMUK lobbies  for the statutory right to
> receive copies of the legal orders which change Public Rights of Way as
> it can be slow for any official changes to make their way onto the
> Definitive Map and then be picked up by mappers. 

Why not instead lobby for them to be published somewhere (with a feed)?

Gerv


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Re: [Talk-GB] PRoW changes

[Dave F]

Sounds fine in principle.

1. Are these orders placed in a central database? My understanding was 
each local authority only passed on the data (to OS) once added to the 
definitive map. My LA publishes PPOs & DMMOs on their website. If all 
LAs do the same could the information be collated from these?


2. What does OSMUK intended to do with the documents once it's obtained it?

3. If there is one, do all LAs issue under the same license?

Dave F.

On 29/05/2017 12:02, Brian Prangle wrote:


There's been a suggestion that OSMUK lobbiesfor the statutory right to 
receive copies of the legal orders which change Public Rights of Way 
as it can be slow for any official changes to make their way onto the 
Definitive Map and then be picked up by mappers. There is already 
legislation that allows various organisations the right to receive 
copies of the legal orders that effect changes to Public Rights of 
Way. The list is contained in Schedule 6 of the Wildlife and 
Countryside (Definitive Maps and Statements) Regulations 1993: 
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/12/schedule/6/made


These are:

Auto-Cycle Union

British Horse Society

Byways and Bridleways Trust, Open Spaces Society

Ramblers Association

British Driving Society

Cyclists Touring Club

Peak and Northern Footpaths Society

Chiltern Society

Welsh Trail Riders' Association

The Board has discussed this and agreed we should do it. I've 
volunteered to lead this activity.  We think that we would need to 
convince the relevant Secretary of State that it was a good idea, and 
get them to amend/re-issue the Statutory Instrument linked above that 
includes the list. From the introductory text, it looks like it's 
jointly the Secretaries of State for the Environment and Wales.


My thinking on how we should approach this is first to contact each of 
the organisations who are already on the list and ask


 1. Were they added at the time the legislation was passed or
subsequently?
 2. If subsequently, do they know the procedure?
 3. How is the data provided to them?
 4. What licence terms does it have?
 5. If it's open data would they be willing to share it with us until
we get on the list?

If anybody has any knowledge or experience of this legislation or any 
contacts at these organisations or any other ideas on how to approach 
this campaign we'd love to know either here or on the OSMUK Loomio 
 discussion site.



Regards


Brian



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[Talk-GB] PRoW changes

[Brian Prangle]

There's been a suggestion that OSMUK lobbies  for the statutory right to
receive copies of the legal orders which change Public Rights of Way as it
can be slow for any official changes to make their way onto the Definitive
Map and then be picked up by mappers. There is already legislation that
allows various organisations the right to receive copies of the legal
orders that effect changes to Public Rights of Way. The list is contained
in Schedule 6 of the Wildlife and Countryside (Definitive Maps and
Statements) Regulations 1993:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/12/schedule/6/made

These are:

Auto-Cycle Union

British Horse Society

Byways and Bridleways Trust, Open Spaces Society

Ramblers Association

British Driving Society

Cyclists Touring Club

Peak and Northern Footpaths Society

Chiltern Society

Welsh Trail Riders' Association

The Board has discussed this and agreed we should do it. I've volunteered
to lead this activity.  We think that we would need to convince the
relevant Secretary of State that it was a good idea, and get them to
amend/re-issue the Statutory Instrument linked above that includes the
list. From the introductory text, it looks like it's jointly the
Secretaries of State for the Environment and Wales.

My thinking on how we should approach this is first to contact each of the
organisations who are already on the list and ask

   1. Were they added at the time the legislation was passed or
   subsequently?
   2. If subsequently, do they know the procedure?
   3. How is the data provided to them?
   4. What licence terms does it have?
   5.  If it's open data would they be willing to share it with us until we
   get on the list?

If anybody has any knowledge or experience of this legislation or any
contacts at these organisations or any other  ideas on how to approach this
campaign we'd love to know either here or on the OSMUK Loomio
 discussion site.


Regards


Brian
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