Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
I have to say that this is all getting rather intense. We are talking about one chain of shops! And clearly we aren't going to get an agreement on standardisation. To be honest I've never quite understood the obsession with mapping individual shops. Fine if it is done everywhere, but it isn't. Shops come and go, and if I was to do this in Southend High Street I'd have to walk up it on a weekly basis at present to capture all the changes. Frankly, I've got better things to do given many missing crossings, footpaths, cycle ways etc that would really enhance the data. As I read about a million messages ago, the user of the data can find Brantano, or Coral, or whatever, in all its various forms by processing the data. I've found three different ways of mapping bus lanes so far, which to me is more important than one chain of shops. But we live with it, and code it up so that we account for it rather than proposing to change everything wholesale to identical schemas. Any chance we can just move on from this? Regards Stuart Sent from my iPhone On 5 Nov 2014, at 07:21, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nlmailto:colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: I'm glad you say you agree Lester, but to me, the words common default name imply some level of consensus, not the subjective opinion of an individual mapper. I see issues here which we should not conflate; on the contrary, we should address them in order, as they form a hierarchy. Firstly, should there be (as I contend) some objective consensus-based normalised value for names Secondly, how does the community work out what that value should be Thirdly, (how) do we backfit that value into existing data Fourthly, (how) do we encourage the use consensus value in preference to what Joe Mapper might think As compliance with rule 4 cannot be ensured, we can apply rule 3 periodically to tidy things up. There are people who object to rule 1, rule 2 seems to be a war of attrition. The arguments about rule 3 are polarised into camps, and rule 4 is at the whim of tool developers who decide what assistance to offer based on their personal preferences and the feelings of the day. We live in a free society, and OSM is possibly more free than most. But even in a free society, there need to be rules and limits to safeguard the good of the society as a whole. Let us not act out a certain novel which comes to mind, but have a shared idea of what data quality means and find the right balance of measures to work together towards that. C. On 2014-11-04 23:54, Lester Caine wrote: On 04/11/14 22:04, Colin Smale wrote: Hang on a minute... the name tag should contain the most common name, or, as the wiki puts it, the common default name. Totally Agree Colin ... The name tag should not be subjected to a 'mechanical edit' to change what has been entered by a local mapper, so please vote against this proposal on principle. The 'discussion' on Brantano Footwear is a particular element of that edit which would change what IS on the local signs, because the second line is simple is description of the shop, which is what I'm objecting to. No problem with the other 'documentary' tags, it's just the name tag which is contentious here. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.orgmailto:Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
So the question is - what makes you think that 'Footwear' is part of the name, rather than a description of the products they sell? How about their about page? http://www.brantano.co.uk/en-gb/desktop/about-us Brantano Footwear was established in the UK in 1998 Ed ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
And just to add further confusion into the mix the UK Ltd company is registered at companies house as BRANTANO (UK) LIMITED Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: Ed Loach [mailto:edlo...@gmail.com] Sent: 05 November 2014 08:55 To: 'Matthijs Melissen'; 'Talk GB' Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names So the question is - what makes you think that 'Footwear' is part of the name, rather than a description of the products they sell? How about their about page? http://www.brantano.co.uk/en-gb/desktop/about-us Brantano Footwear was established in the UK in 1998 Ed ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On Wed, 2014-11-05 at 08:32 +, Stuart Reynolds wrote: I have to say that this is all getting rather intense. We are talking about one chain of shops! And clearly we aren't going to get an agreement on standardisation. We aren't, and to be honest the data consumer can post process whether we spell LIDL as Lidl or LiDL. To be honest I am more concerned about potential tag merging that will probably come next. To be honest I've never quite understood the obsession with mapping individual shops. Fine if it is done everywhere, but it isn't. Shops come and go, and if I was to do this in Southend High Street I'd have to walk up it on a weekly basis at present to capture all the changes. Frankly, I've got better things to do given many missing crossings, footpaths, cycle ways etc that would really enhance the data. Mapping small shops is probably of limited use, but I do try to remove the bias of what I do map and sometimes the only way is to map everything. As a community dominated by male geeks we do tend to add POIs in the order of pubs, take aways, food shops, petrol stations. That said pubs are a traditional landmark in the UK and have been used to give directions since long before OSM. In the modern world supermarkets are becoming equally important navigation points. It is certainly important to add these, and they are useful to be able to search when in a strange area. I am unlikely to want to find Brantano, but many a time I have needed to find Tesco/Asda when away from home. As I read about a million messages ago, the user of the data can find Brantano, or Coral, or whatever, in all its various forms by processing the data. I've found three different ways of mapping bus lanes so far, which to me is more important than one chain of shops. But we live with it, and code it up so that we account for it rather than proposing to change everything wholesale to identical schemas. Any chance we can just move on from this? We perhaps should, but the nature of this thread is alien to the way we generally do things. Votes/polls or mechanical edits are going to generate debate and strong feelings. We should at least put this on the backburner for the near future, it is after all SOTM time and many community members are away. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
At last! A grain of ground truth. Map what you can see +1 to that On 4 November 2014 22:17, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: On 04/11/14 22:04, Colin Smale wrote: Hang on a minute... the name tag should contain the most common name, or, as the wiki puts it, the common default name. There are other tags for enthousiasts to store official names, legal names, alternate names, brands, operators etc which, in a certain frame of reference, can also be correct in their own way. What goes in the basic name tag should be what most people would call it, and, implicitly, should be written how most people would write it. IMHO most people would write Spar, Asda, Brantano and only trademark junkies would write ASDA for example (discounting people who would write any answer in all capitals anyway). C. I would write what it says on the sign on the shop. That's why I tag ASDA as ASDA, that's what it says on the sign. I don't look at their website, their advertising or their letter heads. I use ground truth. I'm not a trademark junkie, I'm a mapper who tries to get it right. -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
Mapping small shops is probably of limited use, but I do try to remove the bias of what I do map and sometimes the only way is to map everything. As a community dominated by male geeks we do tend to add POIs in the order of pubs, take aways, food shops, petrol stations. That said pubs are a traditional landmark in the UK and have been used to give directions since long before OSM. In the modern world supermarkets are becoming equally important navigation points. It is certainly important to add these, and they are useful to be able to search when in a strange area. I am unlikely to want to find Brantano, but many a time I have needed to find Tesco/Asda when away from home. Phil, I certainly didn't mean to suggest that people shouldn't many ANY shops, and clearly doing so adds a richness to the mapping layer so long as you can avoid map clutter. There are definitely categories of navigation milestones that people look for, and in addition to pubs supermarkets that would also include Post Offices, petrol stations... I'm sure we can think of others. Rather, my point was more that people were getting hung up on (as I see it) minutiae when there are other things to address. Regards, Stuart ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 05/11/14 08:32, Stuart Reynolds wrote: I have to say that this is all getting rather intense. We are talking about one chain of shops! And clearly we aren't going to get an agreement on standardisation. The 'one chain of shops' has perhaps masked my objection to the general process. There has always been a 'gentleman’s understanding' that what was used as the 'name' was what appears on the ground? Other facets of that such as translations, branding, and the like are based on documentation rather than 'fact' on the ground, and only a ground survey can show that - for example - every 'Brantano Footwear' shop does indeed have that on it's sign. co-op and co-operative are another area where a blanket edit is not appropriate. While you may well be able to identify all the shops operated by 'x' from a list of their stores, and add that as an 'operator', where branding has changed over the years, some stores may still be in an older livery, and in my book even the capitalization is important in that! Flag them for checking - yes - change them without any reference to the site - no. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 2 November 2014 13:24, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Because I think it is important to act as carefully as possible when executing automatic edits, I have stopped the voting, and will bring this proposal back to the discussion phase. Thank you all for your input. From the discussion, it appears that there are diverging opinions on the use of capitals in Aldi, Spar, Lidl, and Asda. I therefore think that it is not appropriate to carry out an automatic edit at this point, and I have removed these shops from the proposal. The same holds for Brantano Footwear. It seems the company is not consistent in the way they call themselves, so an automatic edit is not applicable. The same holds for Maplin Electronics versus Maplin, BM Bargains versus BM, Carphone Warehouse versus The Carphone Warehouse, Cotsworld Outdoor versus Cotsworld, and Three versus 3. All of them I have removed from the proposal as well. Could you please have a look at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names if there are any other changes that need removing or changing? If not, I will open up a poll again to see if the proposal has sufficient support. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 05/11/2014 17:24, Matthijs Melissen wrote: Could you please have a look at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names if there are any other changes that need removing or changing? Wilkinson we know are in a process of rebranding to Wilko; so I might be tempted there to add notes to ask if a particular shop has been rebranded yet. Just changing Wilkinsons to Wilkinson might suggest that you know that a particular shop was Wilkinson on a certain date, which isn't the case. Thompson is also a very common name; I'd be wary of changing those without a local survey. Phones 4u shops I'd expect would need resurvey due to the administration. I'd be very careful with Majestic to avoid e.g. curry houses. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 05/11/14 08:32, Stuart Reynolds wrote: To be honest I've never quite understood the obsession with mapping individual shops. Fine if it is done everywhere, but it isn't. Shops come and go, and if I was to do this in Southend High Street I'd have to walk up it on a weekly basis at present to capture all the changes. Frankly, I've got better things to do given many missing crossings, footpaths, cycle ways etc that would really enhance the data. That's close to my view, although I think you an get away with a three monthly survey. Not that that makes much difference as I reckon the current rate will just about map every shop in 40 to 50 years! The other thing is that it seems to be concentrating on the big brands, which means that people are being over-influenced by their marketing efforts. Moreover, there is little need for data collection on big brands, as anyone who needs it can easily obtain information on all their store locations, and they have the resources to maintain electronic maps if they think it is useful to their business. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
2014-11-03 23:35 GMT+00:00 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl: On 2 November 2014 16:11, Andy Street a...@street.me.uk wrote: On Sun, 2 Nov 2014 13:24:46 + Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: - 'Brantano Footwear' versus Brantano Whilst company names do not necessarily reflect trading names I'd be inclined to take Brantano (UK) Limited as further evidence for Brantano over Brantano Footwear. Are there still objections against Brantano? - Capitalization of Aldi, Lidl, Spar, Asda What do people think about using upper case for names that are pronounced as a series of letters and mixed case for names that are pronounced as a word? Whilst not ideal (until the widespread adoption of the talking shop sign!) this would give us a rule of thumb that should be easy enough to follow in the majority of situations. I'm not sure if this would be a good general rule, it would look strange in abbreviations like NATO, AIDS, or GNU (not sure if all of them occur in topographic names). Maybe we could follow the spelling the organization uses themselves in running text? That would give us Lidl, Aldi, and Asda, but SPAR. Alternatively, we could follow the spelling other media use to refer to those shops (which is the rule Wikipedia uses), which would probably give us Lidl, Aldi, Asda, and Spar. The latter also corresponds with current use. What do you think? I think either the running-text or the say-it-as-a-word heuristics are roughly OK, but more importantly, they're so heuristic that what is the point, given that the companies often don't make up their minds entirely, and capitalisation is unlikely to be a big deal? There are many of your suggested edits that I think will be useful, but actually the decision whether to use ASDA or Asda is not very likely to have any downstream impact on anyone, because even the most simple-minded of data consumers (such as me ;) can probably do case-insensitive search... It might surprise everyone for me to turn against those edits! But the capitalisation differences are so minor, I'd much rather we all agree to let Matthijs fix the important things like Ladbrooks :) Dan ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
Are there still objections against Brantano? Yes. It says Brantano Footwear as the name on the sign on at least the two nearest stores to me. I have no objections to brand or operator being Brantano, but not the name field. Ed ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On Mon, 2014-11-03 at 23:35 +, Matthijs Melissen wrote: On 2 November 2014 16:11, Andy Street a...@street.me.uk wrote: On Sun, 2 Nov 2014 13:24:46 + Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: - 'Brantano Footwear' versus Brantano Whilst company names do not necessarily reflect trading names I'd be inclined to take Brantano (UK) Limited as further evidence for Brantano over Brantano Footwear. Are there still objections against Brantano? - Capitalization of Aldi, Lidl, Spar, Asda What do people think about using upper case for names that are pronounced as a series of letters and mixed case for names that are pronounced as a word? Whilst not ideal (until the widespread adoption of the talking shop sign!) this would give us a rule of thumb that should be easy enough to follow in the majority of situations. I'm not sure if this would be a good general rule, it would look strange in abbreviations like NATO, AIDS, or GNU (not sure if all of them occur in topographic names). Maybe we could follow the spelling the organization uses themselves in running text? That would give us Lidl, Aldi, and Asda, but SPAR. Alternatively, we could follow the spelling other media use to refer to those shops (which is the rule Wikipedia uses), which would probably give us Lidl, Aldi, Asda, and Spar. The latter also corresponds with current use. What do you think? ALDI, LIDL, ASDA and SPAR are all abbreviations of their full names, in the same way as NATO, AIDS, BBC, OSM or GNU are. I would prefer to keep things correct although usage in OSM does seem to have gone heavily away from this. Even the Germans can't decide with ALDI and LIDL. In the late 70s, early 80s when ADSA arrived as the new kid on the block, everyone seemed to know it was short for Associated Dairies, but that has probably long since been forgotten. This is probably not really controversial and I should go along with the majority. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
In the late 70s, early 80s when ADSA arrived as the new kid on the block, everyone seemed to know it was short for Associated Dairies, but that has probably long since been forgotten. Regarding ASDA, I was following one of their delivery vans yesterday and noticed all occurrences of their name were in capitals, including in www.ASDA.com. Ed ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 4 November 2014 10:25, Ed Loach edlo...@gmail.com wrote: Are there still objections against Brantano? Yes. It says Brantano Footwear as the name on the sign on at least the two nearest stores to me. I have no objections to brand or operator being Brantano, but not the name field. As I said before, shops commonly list the products they sell under the shop name on a shield. Example: http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy292/dennoir/Artistic/290320092891hamersmith.jpg I suppose you wouldn't tag this shop as 'Sweets News cold drinks magazines newspapers sweets bus passes'? So the question is - what makes you think that 'Footwear' is part of the name, rather than a description of the products they sell? -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 4 November 2014 12:55, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: ALDI, LIDL, ASDA and SPAR are all abbreviations of their full names, in the same way as NATO, AIDS, BBC, OSM or GNU are. Whether Spar is an abbreviation is doubtful. Spar is Dutch for spruce (a species of tree), hence the logo. According to this article [1] (in Dutch), the name originally only referred to the tree, and only later a slogan was made up of which the initials corresponded to the letters in 'De Spar'. I would prefer to keep things correct although usage in OSM does seem to have gone heavily away from this. Even the Germans can't decide with ALDI and LIDL. I think everybody prefers to keep things correct, but I honestly don't know what 'correct' in this context means. What is your idea of correctness? In the late 70s, early 80s when ADSA arrived as the new kid on the block, everyone seemed to know it was short for Associated Dairies, but that has probably long since been forgotten. According to Wikipedia, it actually stands for 'Asquith and Dairies'. In any case, this abbreviation doesn't explain the capitals - given the abbreviation, one would expect AsDa, not ASDA. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 04/11/14 17:19, Matthijs Melissen wrote: On 4 November 2014 10:25, Ed Loach edlo...@gmail.com wrote: Are there still objections against Brantano? Yes. It says Brantano Footwear as the name on the sign on at least the two nearest stores to me. I have no objections to brand or operator being Brantano, but not the name field. As I said before, shops commonly list the products they sell under the shop name on a shield. Example: http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy292/dennoir/Artistic/290320092891hamersmith.jpg I suppose you wouldn't tag this shop as 'Sweets News cold drinks magazines newspapers sweets bus passes'? So the question is - what makes you think that 'Footwear' is part of the name, rather than a description of the products they sell? OK ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brantano_Footwear This explains where Brantano Footwear came from and also why the Footwear element may be a little woolly in the UK today. It is a registered name http://coalville.cylex-uk.co.uk/company/brantano--footwear--ltd-15742171.html Then you get locations like http://www.yell.com/biz/brantano-footwear-ltd-poole-7216924/ and many other shops are listed with the full name so even they don't know the exact situation :) The 'name' is 'Brantano Footwear' unless there IS something different on the signage, and the 'operator' is 'Brantano (UK) Ltd'. I'd avoid using 'brand' since even the web site makes a big thing of the brands that they supply, and Brantano is just one of many brands. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On Tue, 2014-11-04 at 17:29 +, Matthijs Melissen wrote: On 4 November 2014 12:55, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: ALDI, LIDL, ASDA and SPAR are all abbreviations of their full names, in the same way as NATO, AIDS, BBC, OSM or GNU are. Whether Spar is an abbreviation is doubtful. Spar is Dutch for spruce (a species of tree), hence the logo. According to this article [1] (in Dutch), the name originally only referred to the tree, and only later a slogan was made up of which the initials corresponded to the letters in 'De Spar'. According to wikipedia SPAR is an acronym of Door Eendrachtig Samenwerken Profiteren Allen Regelmatig, although the DE has been dropped. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spar_(retailer)#Etymology Phil (trigpoint) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 4 November 2014 18:55, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: According to wikipedia SPAR is an acronym of Door Eendrachtig Samenwerken Profiteren Allen Regelmatig, although the DE has been dropped. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spar_(retailer)#Etymology Yes, but according to the newspaper article I linked, the name and icon were chosen first, and the slogan was only chosen later to match the name. Which would make sense, because 'Door Eendrachtig Samenwerken Profiteren Allen Regelmatig' sounds rather artificial in Dutch. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 18:49:44 + Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: The 'name' is 'Brantano Footwear' unless there IS something different on the signage, and the 'operator' is 'Brantano (UK) Ltd'. Trade marks appear to use Brantano rather than Brantano Footwear: http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmtext.htm I'd avoid using 'brand' since even the web site makes a big thing of the brands that they supply, and Brantano is just one of many brands. brand=Brantano (or Brantano Footwear) is perfectly correct. You are confusing the branding of the store with the branding of the products it sells. -- Regards, Andy Street ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 04/11/14 17:19, Matthijs Melissen wrote: So the question is - what makes you think that 'Footwear' is part of the name, rather than a description of the products they sell? The 7,510 Google hits for '+site:brantano.co.uk brantano footwear', for as start, including their TCs page. The other thing is that it is clearly part of the complete logo. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 04/11/14 12:55, Philip Barnes wrote: ALDI, LIDL, ASDA and SPAR are all abbreviations of their full names, in the same way as NATO, AIDS, BBC, OSM or GNU are. BBC is an initialism, so should be in uppercase. The rest of treated as acronyms. To the extent that they are trademarks, they may need initial capitals to distinguish them from ordinary words with the same spelling. Other than that there don't seem to be any clear rules for capitalising acronyms. I presume you don't use LASER pointers or get caught by RADAR (RaDAR) speed traps, although you also wouldn't have a radar key. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 04/11/14 20:01, Andy Street wrote: The 'name' is 'Brantano Footwear' unless there IS something different on the signage, and the 'operator' is 'Brantano (UK) Ltd'. Trade marks appear to use Brantano rather than Brantano Footwear: http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmtext.htm I'd avoid using 'brand' since even the web site makes a big thing of the brands that they supply, and Brantano is just one of many brands. brand=Brantano (or Brantano Footwear) is perfectly correct. You are confusing the branding of the store with the branding of the products it sells. The original company name was Brantano Footwear when the first shops were set up, and these have never been 'rebranded' back to just Brantano, however there is a concerted use of Brantano as the brand name for shoes produced by Brantano Footwear and sold in Brantano Footwear shops. But I'm sure an email to their press office would get a definitive statement on that ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
Hang on a minute... the name tag should contain the most common name, or, as the wiki puts it, the common default name. There are other tags for enthousiasts to store official names, legal names, alternate names, brands, operators etc which, in a certain frame of reference, can also be correct in their own way. What goes in the basic name tag should be what most people would call it, and, implicitly, should be written how most people would write it. IMHO most people would write Spar, Asda, Brantano and only trademark junkies would write ASDA for example (discounting people who would write any answer in all capitals anyway). C. On 2014-11-04 22:49, Lester Caine wrote: On 04/11/14 20:01, Andy Street wrote: The 'name' is 'Brantano Footwear' unless there IS something different on the signage, and the 'operator' is 'Brantano (UK) Ltd'. Trade marks appear to use Brantano rather than Brantano Footwear: http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmtext.htm [1] I'd avoid using 'brand' since even the web site makes a big thing of the brands that they supply, and Brantano is just one of many brands. brand=Brantano (or Brantano Footwear) is perfectly correct. You are confusing the branding of the store with the branding of the products it sells. The original company name was Brantano Footwear when the first shops were set up, and these have never been 'rebranded' back to just Brantano, however there is a concerted use of Brantano as the brand name for shoes produced by Brantano Footwear and sold in Brantano Footwear shops. But I'm sure an email to their press office would get a definitive statement on that ... Links: -- [1] http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmtext.htm ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 04/11/14 22:04, Colin Smale wrote: Hang on a minute... the name tag should contain the most common name, or, as the wiki puts it, the common default name. There are other tags for enthousiasts to store official names, legal names, alternate names, brands, operators etc which, in a certain frame of reference, can also be correct in their own way. What goes in the basic name tag should be what most people would call it, and, implicitly, should be written how most people would write it. IMHO most people would write Spar, Asda, Brantano and only trademark junkies would write ASDA for example (discounting people who would write any answer in all capitals anyway). C. I would write what it says on the sign on the shop. That's why I tag ASDA as ASDA, that's what it says on the sign. I don't look at their website, their advertising or their letter heads. I use ground truth. I'm not a trademark junkie, I'm a mapper who tries to get it right. -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
What is right is a subjective judgement, that's the whole discussion, surely? And the ground truth paradigm isn't absolute, otherwise we would have name=HIGH ST. as has been mentioned before. If two parties have different answers yet both insist they are right, you should look again at the question. They may both be right, but from two different points of view. C. On 2014-11-04 23:17, Chris Hill wrote: On 04/11/14 22:04, Colin Smale wrote: Hang on a minute... the name tag should contain the most common name, or, as the wiki puts it, the common default name. There are other tags for enthousiasts to store official names, legal names, alternate names, brands, operators etc which, in a certain frame of reference, can also be correct in their own way. What goes in the basic name tag should be what most people would call it, and, implicitly, should be written how most people would write it. IMHO most people would write Spar, Asda, Brantano and only trademark junkies would write ASDA for example (discounting people who would write any answer in all capitals anyway). C. I would write what it says on the sign on the shop. That's why I tag ASDA as ASDA, that's what it says on the sign. I don't look at their website, their advertising or their letter heads. I use ground truth. I'm not a trademark junkie, I'm a mapper who tries to get it right. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 4 November 2014 22:17, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: I would write what it says on the sign on the shop. That's why I tag ASDA as ASDA, that's what it says on the sign. I don't look at their website, their advertising or their letter heads. I use ground truth. I'm not a trademark junkie, I'm a mapper who tries to get it right. Would you also write name=PRIMARK, name=LLOYDS BANK, name=PIZZA EXPRESS, and name=wagamama? -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 04/11/14 22:04, Colin Smale wrote: Hang on a minute... the name tag should contain the most common name, or, as the wiki puts it, the common default name. Totally Agree Colin ... The name tag should not be subjected to a 'mechanical edit' to change what has been entered by a local mapper, so please vote against this proposal on principle. The 'discussion' on Brantano Footwear is a particular element of that edit which would change what IS on the local signs, because the second line is simple is description of the shop, which is what I'm objecting to. No problem with the other 'documentary' tags, it's just the name tag which is contentious here. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
I'm glad you say you agree Lester, but to me, the words common default name imply some level of consensus, not the subjective opinion of an individual mapper. I see issues here which we should not conflate; on the contrary, we should address them in order, as they form a hierarchy. Firstly, should there be (as I contend) some objective consensus-based normalised value for names Secondly, how does the community work out what that value should be Thirdly, (how) do we backfit that value into existing data Fourthly, (how) do we encourage the use consensus value in preference to what Joe Mapper might think As compliance with rule 4 cannot be ensured, we can apply rule 3 periodically to tidy things up. There are people who object to rule 1, rule 2 seems to be a war of attrition. The arguments about rule 3 are polarised into camps, and rule 4 is at the whim of tool developers who decide what assistance to offer based on their personal preferences and the feelings of the day. We live in a free society, and OSM is possibly more free than most. But even in a free society, there need to be rules and limits to safeguard the good of the society as a whole. Let us not act out a certain novel which comes to mind, but have a shared idea of what data quality means and find the right balance of measures to work together towards that. C. On 2014-11-04 23:54, Lester Caine wrote: On 04/11/14 22:04, Colin Smale wrote: Hang on a minute... the name tag should contain the most common name, or, as the wiki puts it, the common default name. Totally Agree Colin ... The name tag should not be subjected to a 'mechanical edit' to change what has been entered by a local mapper, so please vote against this proposal on principle. The 'discussion' on Brantano Footwear is a particular element of that edit which would change what IS on the local signs, because the second line is simple is description of the shop, which is what I'm objecting to. No problem with the other 'documentary' tags, it's just the name tag which is contentious here. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 2 November 2014 16:11, Andy Street a...@street.me.uk wrote: On Sun, 2 Nov 2014 13:24:46 + Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: - 'Brantano Footwear' versus Brantano Whilst company names do not necessarily reflect trading names I'd be inclined to take Brantano (UK) Limited as further evidence for Brantano over Brantano Footwear. Are there still objections against Brantano? - Capitalization of Aldi, Lidl, Spar, Asda What do people think about using upper case for names that are pronounced as a series of letters and mixed case for names that are pronounced as a word? Whilst not ideal (until the widespread adoption of the talking shop sign!) this would give us a rule of thumb that should be easy enough to follow in the majority of situations. I'm not sure if this would be a good general rule, it would look strange in abbreviations like NATO, AIDS, or GNU (not sure if all of them occur in topographic names). Maybe we could follow the spelling the organization uses themselves in running text? That would give us Lidl, Aldi, and Asda, but SPAR. Alternatively, we could follow the spelling other media use to refer to those shops (which is the rule Wikipedia uses), which would probably give us Lidl, Aldi, Asda, and Spar. The latter also corresponds with current use. What do you think? -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
Dear all, During the voting phase, a number of comments on the shop renaming proposal have been brought forward that were not voiced during the discussion phase (both here and on the voting page). Because I think it is important to act as carefully as possible when executing automatic edits, I have stopped the voting, and will bring this proposal back to the discussion phase. My apologies to those who voted already. The main points of discussion, apart from those by people who don't support automatic edits in general, were as follows. Note that in all cases, we have the option to choose either of both options, but also the option to do nothing at all. - 'Brantano Footwear' versus Brantano Some shops signs include the 'Footwear' text, others don't. I would argue that 'Footwear' in the logo is not part of the title, but a description of the shop's activities. For example, we also don't tag 'name=Cafe Nero The Italian coffee company' or 'name=Poundland Everything's £1'. We currently have 116 times Brantano and 12 times Brantano Footwear in the UK. The shop's website doesn't include the word 'Footwear', but their Twitter does. Opinions? - Capitalization of Aldi, Lidl, Spar, Asda There is no agreement on whether these names should be capitalized or not. The spelling on the sign is not sufficient evidence, unless we believe that Jones Bootmaker, Lloyds Bank, Halifax, Pizza Express, Cafe Rouge, Greggs, Primark, and Max Spielmann should be tagged in uppercase too. The fact that the names are abbreviations is not a reason to capitalize either: ASDA stands for Asquith and Dairies, so the etymology gives no reason for capitalizing the S, at least. Aldi and Lidl use lowercase on their website, while SPAR uses uppercase, and Asda/ASDA uses a mix. I'm not sure what to do here. - The change for Jewson was given in the wrong direction in the initial proposal. The name Jewsons should be changed to Jewson, and I will change the proposal accordingly. The current proposal can be found here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names Please let me know what you think of these issues, and if there are any other changes you want to discuss. Kind regards, Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 02/11/14 13:24, Matthijs Melissen wrote: - 'Brantano Footwear' versus Brantano Some shops signs include the 'Footwear' text, others don't. I would argue that 'Footwear' in the logo is not part of the title, but a description of the shop's activities. For example, we also don't tag 'name=Cafe Nero The Italian coffee company' or 'name=Poundland Everything's £1'. We currently have 116 times Brantano and 12 times Brantano Footwear in the UK. The shop's website doesn't include the word 'Footwear', but their Twitter does. Opinions? At least one place on their web site refers to them as Brantano Footwear. My feeling is that this part of the trading as name, but the problem seems to be that Brantano's marketing director is not very strict on such issues. Some companies, like Microsoft http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/legal/IntellectualProperty/Trademarks/EN-US.aspx, will issue strict guidelines to the press and to other businesses using their name, as to the exact form of their name to be used. Being at the end of the supply chain, shops have less need for this. Brantano don't have a distinct corporate web site and don't seem to have a trademarks guidelines document. They do have a contact address for their press officer, which might be the way to find out the, current, official position. believe that Jones Bootmaker, Lloyds Bank, Halifax, Pizza Express, Lloyds Bank is an example of where the description of the business is definitely part of the trading as name. This is probably to avoid confusion with Lloyd's, a different sort of financial services organisation. The latter does have heavyweight branding guidelines. Cafe Rouge, Greggs, Primark, and Max Spielmann should be tagged in uppercase too. The fact that the names are abbreviations is not a reason to capitalize either: ASDA stands for Asquith and Dairies, so the etymology gives no reason for capitalizing the S, at least. Aldi and Lidl use lowercase on their website, while SPAR uses uppercase, SPAR state that SPAR is a registered trademark on their legal page. Unfortunately that same page forbids deep linking, so I can't tell you where it is :-( Whilst that could be for stress, their consistent use elsewhere makes me think that capitalisation is part of the trademark. and Asda/ASDA uses a mix. I'm not sure what to do here. ASDA's legal pages consistently capitalises, even though they seem to use Asda in press releases. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On Sun, 2 Nov 2014 13:24:46 + Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: - 'Brantano Footwear' versus Brantano Whilst company names do not necessarily reflect trading names I'd be inclined to take Brantano (UK) Limited as further evidence for Brantano over Brantano Footwear. - Capitalization of Aldi, Lidl, Spar, Asda We have the on-the-ground rule but it seems a stretch to try and match the formatting of a sign as well as its contents. We are happy enough to accept roads named High Street from street signs labelled HIGH ST. so I can't see why shops should be held to a different standard. What do people think about using upper case for names that are pronounced as a series of letters and mixed case for names that are pronounced as a word? Whilst not ideal (until the widespread adoption of the talking shop sign!) this would give us a rule of thumb that should be easy enough to follow in the majority of situations. -- Regards, Andy Street ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 02/11/14 16:11, Andy Street wrote: What do people think about using upper case for names that are pronounced as a series of letters and mixed case for names that are pronounced as a word? Whilst not ideal (until the widespread adoption of the talking shop sign!) this would give us a rule of thumb that should be easy enough to follow in the majority of situations. This isn't really about shops in general, it is about a relatively small number of national brands. Some of those brands are nothing much more than the intellectual property associated with those brands, e.g. franchises and similar arrangements. As such, the correct way of capitalising the name is what the owner of the name wants. Arguably, if they are not prepared to step in and correct the names themselves, they don't particularly care. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On Sun, 02 Nov 2014 20:02:21 + David Woolley for...@david-woolley.me.uk wrote: As such, the correct way of capitalising the name is what the owner of the name wants. True, and that could potentially vary depending on context. Arguably, if they are not prepared to step in and correct the names themselves, they don't particularly care. That was largely my thinking. With a general rule we can save ourselves the trouble of trying to wrangle with uninterested marketing departments for a blessed style and make exceptions as and when they are required. -- Regards, Andy Street ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
