[Talk-GB] Telegraph releases Green Belt data
Just to let everyone know that I've been on the phone with the relevant officials at DCLG to discuss the licence for this data. They are already aware of OSM, are keen to get the licence on the data clarified so it can be reused more widely and are in discussions with OS about this. In the meantime, a better map has been produced using the data: http://www.itoworld.com/map/253 In terms of Green Belt designation, some of the comments on this list have rather misunderstood what it us. Designation as Green Belt is supposed to be permanent - even if exceptional circumstances are found to justify a particular development in Green Belt, that will not necessarily revoke its status in that location. For example, if a house has been built in Green Belt, then the fact it is still Green Belt is likely to mean it is more difficult to obtain permission for a large extension etc. Ralph Smyth Senior Transport Campaigner, Barrister Campaign to Protect Rural England www.cpre.org.uk/what-we-do/transport http://www.cpre.org.uk/what-we-do/transport winmail.dat___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Telegraph releases Green Belt data
Hi This is a topical subject for me as I'm a Parish Councillor and we're looking to develop a Neighbourhood Plan. Ours is a small rural Parish and I'm hoping to use OSM to map it in more detail and then use Maperative to produce maps of specific features. I'd suggest contacting your local Parish Council as I suspect thery will have no knowledge of OSM and jow it might help them. There is a requirement for community engagement. What better way than to get people to map their neighbourhood. We don't have a new housing quota but permitted development is a constant threat. Regards Dudley Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 10:57:28 + From: j...@spiffymap.net To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Telegraph releases Green Belt data On 28/11/12 20:46, Tom Chance wrote: On 28 November 2012 19:40, Andy Robinson ajrli...@gmail.com mailto:ajrli...@gmail.com wrote: Some of the area’s most certainly are not “protected” as they are actively being discussed for development. These are probably areas that have been de-designated, or are being considered for this fate, since the Telegraph's data source was compiled. This points to the major flaw with importing this data - it changes year to year, and we can't easily observe the changes on the ground. We might spot development on green belt and so remove the designation, we don't spot where new green space is designated as greenbelt. Unless we had ongoing co-operation from local authorities, within a year we'd be hosting a dataset that's out of date and impossible to check. Hardly impossible, since it's public information. Green belt land is supposed to be permanent, if I remember the Town and Country Planning Act correctly, so it should change less often than local government boundaries, which have no evidence on the ground at all in most places - yet we still maintain them in OSM. Local authorities normally publish green belt maps as part of their planning statements. Unfortunately these are often in hard-to-use formats like PDF. I'm not arguing for a rush to import this dataset, but it would be great to have this information in OSM and much easier to maintain it after import/tracing than to author it by hand. When I say it would be great to have it, in fact I believe this is a huge opportunity for OSM to play a vital role in local democracy. And when I say vital, I'm not exaggerating. The Localism Act 2011 sweeps away a lot of restrictions on planning. There is now a thing called neighbourhood planning which means that communities - or in practice, the tiny proportion of people who take an interest in planning - will be able to grant planning permission where they want to see things built. It limits the powers of professional planners to place restrictions on what will be built where - if the community votes to allow building, it will be allowed without any professional input. (Sorry, I mean interference from government.) This means that property developers will be able to convince just a few people to vote in favour of a development (you can use your imagination how this convincing might be accomplished) and it will go ahead. The only safeguard left against this will be to get enough people involved in the process, and that requires people to be well informed. I had some discussions with someone at the Campaign for the Protection of Rural England a while ago and they sound very keen to provide tools to help communities understand their local geography, given these huge new responsibilities that we have been given. Maps are of course key to this. If we can present this sort of information in OSM, it could even become the de facto source of information for community planning activities. Worth a shot, no? J. -- Dr Jonathan Harley :Managing Director: SpiffyMap Ltd m...@spiffymap.com Phone: 0845 313 8457 www.spiffymap.com The Venture Centre, Sir William Lyons Road, Coventry CV4 7EZ, UK ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Telegraph releases Green Belt data
All, I have emailed the government department named in the article asking for clarification of the license. Will keep you updated. Regards, Rob ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Telegraph releases Green Belt data
On 28/11/12 20:46, Tom Chance wrote: On 28 November 2012 19:40, Andy Robinson ajrli...@gmail.com mailto:ajrli...@gmail.com wrote: Some of the area’s most certainly are not “protected” as they are actively being discussed for development. These are probably areas that have been de-designated, or are being considered for this fate, since the Telegraph's data source was compiled. This points to the major flaw with importing this data - it changes year to year, and we can't easily observe the changes on the ground. We might spot development on green belt and so remove the designation, we don't spot where new green space is designated as greenbelt. Unless we had ongoing co-operation from local authorities, within a year we'd be hosting a dataset that's out of date and impossible to check. Hardly impossible, since it's public information. Green belt land is supposed to be permanent, if I remember the Town and Country Planning Act correctly, so it should change less often than local government boundaries, which have no evidence on the ground at all in most places - yet we still maintain them in OSM. Local authorities normally publish green belt maps as part of their planning statements. Unfortunately these are often in hard-to-use formats like PDF. I'm not arguing for a rush to import this dataset, but it would be great to have this information in OSM and much easier to maintain it after import/tracing than to author it by hand. When I say it would be great to have it, in fact I believe this is a huge opportunity for OSM to play a vital role in local democracy. And when I say vital, I'm not exaggerating. The Localism Act 2011 sweeps away a lot of restrictions on planning. There is now a thing called neighbourhood planning which means that communities - or in practice, the tiny proportion of people who take an interest in planning - will be able to grant planning permission where they want to see things built. It limits the powers of professional planners to place restrictions on what will be built where - if the community votes to allow building, it will be allowed without any professional input. (Sorry, I mean interference from government.) This means that property developers will be able to convince just a few people to vote in favour of a development (you can use your imagination how this convincing might be accomplished) and it will go ahead. The only safeguard left against this will be to get enough people involved in the process, and that requires people to be well informed. I had some discussions with someone at the Campaign for the Protection of Rural England a while ago and they sound very keen to provide tools to help communities understand their local geography, given these huge new responsibilities that we have been given. Maps are of course key to this. If we can present this sort of information in OSM, it could even become the de facto source of information for community planning activities. Worth a shot, no? J. -- Dr Jonathan Harley :Managing Director: SpiffyMap Ltd m...@spiffymap.com Phone: 0845 313 8457 www.spiffymap.com The Venture Centre, Sir William Lyons Road, Coventry CV4 7EZ, UK ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Telegraph releases Green Belt data
On 28 November 2012 19:40, Andy Robinson ajrli...@gmail.com wrote: Also although it’s called Green Belt it includes many areas that also have other designations, such as Country Parks, Golf Courses Recreation Grounds, etc etc etc. ** Would you map all the items and then tag their green_beltness (e.g. leisure=golf_course + protected_area=green_belt), or would you just map an area around all of them for protected_area=green_belt? You can tell when it changes. 1) If people stop playing golf and 200 houses are built on the land, it's probably lost it's green belt status. 2) If you read all the planning notices/applications in your area, and one is to de-designate the green belt status. -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Telegraph releases Green Belt data
On Nov 29, 2012 11:57 AM, Jonathan Harley j...@spiffymap.net wrote: On 28/11/12 20:46, Tom Chance wrote: This points to the major flaw with importing this data - it changes year to year, and we can't easily observe the changes on the ground. We might spot development on green belt and so remove the designation, we don't spot where new green space is designated as greenbelt. Unless we had ongoing co-operation from local authorities, within a year we'd be hosting a dataset that's out of date and impossible to check. Hardly impossible, since it's public information. Sort of. As you say, it's always shown on maps as part of planning policy documents, but they're based on Ordnance Survey maps and are themselves copyrighted. We'd have to get clear permission to use them as a source for updating openstreetmap. Green belt land is supposed to be permanent, if I remember the Town and Country Planning Act correctly, so it should change less often than local government boundaries The general sweep of the belts are permanent, but individual plots can change designations with a simple change to a local development plan document, and planning permission can be given on green belt land. which have no evidence on the ground at all in most places We used to use bins and local knowledge! These days we also have Ordnance Survey open data. I'm not arguing for a rush to import this dataset, but it would be great to have this information in OSM I quite agree, I just don't think we have a suitable source yet. In the meantime it would be quite easy to overlay the Telegraph data on OpenStreetMap maps, and for GIS users to do interesting analysis. Regards, Tom ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Telegraph releases Green Belt data
This afternoon the Daily Telegraph has released Green Belt data for England. Could anyone import this into OSM? If so how might it be rendered? www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/greenpolitics/planning/9708387/Interactive-map -Englands-green-belt.html This map is the first time it has been possible for members of the public to easily see which areas are green belt land, and which are not. The Department for Communities and Local Government released the data for the 2011 green belt to the Telegraph, and it is being made available here to view, explore, share and download. Previously the data has only been available at a cost of tens of thousands of pounds from a third party, despite the location of green belt land being identified by councils using taxpayer money. Expert users may also download a copy of the green belt map http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/html/Years/2012/GreenBeltMap/2011%20G reen%20belt%20boundaries.zip (29MB ZIP file) for use in geographic information systems (GIS). OSM already has many other forms of environmental data so it would be great if this could be included. Ralph Smyth Senior Transport Campaigner, Barrister Campaign to Protect Rural England www.cpre.org.uk/what-we-do/transport http://www.cpre.org.uk/what-we-do/transport winmail.dat___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Telegraph releases Green Belt data
Hi Ralph, I'll get this added to ITO Map in the next day or so. Shaun On 28 Nov 2012, at 15:37, Ralph Smyth ral...@cpre.org.uk wrote: This afternoon the Daily Telegraph has released Green Belt data for England. Could anyone import this into OSM? If so how might it be rendered? www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/greenpolitics/planning/9708387/Interactive-map -Englands-green-belt.html This map is the first time it has been possible for members of the public to easily see which areas are green belt land, and which are not. The Department for Communities and Local Government released the data for the 2011 green belt to the Telegraph, and it is being made available here to view, explore, share and download. Previously the data has only been available at a cost of tens of thousands of pounds from a third party, despite the location of green belt land being identified by councils using taxpayer money. Expert users may also download a copy of the green belt map http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/html/Years/2012/GreenBeltMap/2011%20G reen%20belt%20boundaries.zip (29MB ZIP file) for use in geographic information systems (GIS). OSM already has many other forms of environmental data so it would be great if this could be included. Ralph Smyth Senior Transport Campaigner, Barrister Campaign to Protect Rural England www.cpre.org.uk/what-we-do/transport http://www.cpre.org.uk/what-we-do/transport winmail.dat___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Telegraph releases Green Belt data
On 28 November 2012 15:37, Ralph Smyth ral...@cpre.org.uk wrote: The Department for Communities and Local Government released the data for the 2011 green belt to the Telegraph, and it is being made available here to view, explore, share and download. That seems to be the limit of the details of the licence (there's nothing in the download itself), so as such it's not suitable for use as a source of data. Before we could use it in OSM, we'd need the dataset to come with a clear licence. We need more permissions than just that - we need to be able to re-license, and the permission to create derived products. Additionally we need to know what the attribution requirements are. Of course, if the DCLG want to add an OGL licence to the data, that would be a good start. Clarification around OS rights in the data, if any, would be nice too. Previously the data has only been available at a cost of tens of thousands of pounds from a third party, despite the location of green belt land being identified by councils using taxpayer money. This is why I suggest a lot of caution - if we take the data and incorporate it into OSM, and it turns out to have come from this third party through a more-limited release, we could end up in difficulties. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Telegraph releases Green Belt data
Andy Allan wrote: Before we could use it in OSM, we'd need the dataset to come with a clear licence. (as has already been mentioned by Blackadder on #OSM-GB) I suspect that we'd also want slightly more accurate data. I've had a bit of a look at the Telegraph's map and in places it's not clear whether a street is in or out, and there are also artifacts where there appears to be a tiny gap between two adjacent bits of green belt but I suspect in reality there isn't. This may just be their visualisation of course... Cheers, Andy (a different one) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Telegraph releases Green Belt data
As noted the resolution is not ideal, but the issue with gaps / overlaps between the areas is a rendering error on the telegraphs website only. The main issue however is the lack of clear licence. Perhaps try contacting the Department for Communities and Local Government and asking them. As for a tag try designation=green belt. Perhaps you could also add a protected_area tag as per the following proposal: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Key:protected_area Regards, Rob ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Telegraph releases Green Belt data
Some of the area's most certainly are not protected as they are actively being discussed for development. Also although it's called Green Belt it includes many areas that also have other designations, such as Country Parks, Golf Courses Recreation Grounds, etc etc etc. I would prefer we get the underlying landuse mapped in first before we blindly import these areas as Green Belt. And as you say though, clarification on the licence would be needed before we did anything anyway. Cheers Andy From: Rob Nickerson [mailto:rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com] Sent: 28 November 2012 18:23 To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Telegraph releases Green Belt data As noted the resolution is not ideal, but the issue with gaps / overlaps between the areas is a rendering error on the telegraphs website only. The main issue however is the lack of clear licence. Perhaps try contacting the Department for Communities and Local Government and asking them. As for a tag try designation=green belt. Perhaps you could also add a protected_area tag as per the following proposal: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Key:protected_area Regards, Rob _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5922 - Release Date: 11/27/12 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Telegraph releases Green Belt data
On 28 November 2012 19:40, Andy Robinson ajrli...@gmail.com wrote: Some of the area’s most certainly are not “protected” as they are actively being discussed for development. These are probably areas that have been de-designated, or are being considered for this fate, since the Telegraph's data source was compiled. This points to the major flaw with importing this data - it changes year to year, and we can't easily observe the changes on the ground. We might spot development on green belt and so remove the designation, we don't spot where new green space is designated as greenbelt. Unless we had ongoing co-operation from local authorities, within a year we'd be hosting a dataset that's out of date and impossible to check. The data is out on the Telegraph web site under unclear terms, it would be great to provide it in all sorts of other useful formats, but I don't think it's useful to import it into OpenStreetMap. Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
