subject:"\[Talk\-GB\] UK street addressing"

I agree. I suspect that the post town / dependent locality are
correlated against the post code by the OCR processing. If there was no
post town it would seriously degrade the scanning accuracy as the
postcode OCR would need to be 100% accurate, which is not going to
happen given the number of handwritten addresses. 

On 2020-12-21 16:59, Adam Snape wrote:

> Hi, 
> 
> Post towns may be somewhat arbitrary, but they are at least a verifiable 
> national scheme which we can use for addressing every location in the 
> country. That has to have some benefits compared to each individual mapper 
> deciding where they believe each address falls  - easy for many places, 
> likely contentious for others. The other consistent scheme we could use is 
> tagging by local authority but that's likely to annoy just as many people. 
> 
> I also disagree with the assertion that post towns are no longer used or only 
> of use to RM. Whilst a street address and postcode should suffice, there is 
> an expectation that post is fully addressed. By including the full address, 
> post can still arrive at the correct address despite an obscured, incorrect 
> or illegible postcode. The advantage of a consistent national scheme of 
> addressing is as useful to other couriers in this regard as it is to RM. If 
> you should use parcel labels supplied by the couriers I have usually found 
> them to follow RM's addressing scheme including the relevant post town. 
> 
> Kind regards, 
> 
> Adam 
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-21 Thread Ken Kilfedder

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020, at 4:35 PM, Colin Smale wrote:
> London is the Post Town. Stratford and West Kensington are not relevant for 
> the delivery of post, apparently.

Every day is a school day.   You're right, those are Postal Districts, not 
towns.   I was sure they used to recommend writing those on the envelope - 10 
years ago - but now everything I held dear is in doubt.

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

On 2020-12-21 17:11, Ken Kilfedder wrote:

> If you search for an address on the RM website, I find that (at least in 
> London) it does not suggest the post town is used at all, just "London", not 
> "Stratford" or "West Kensington" or whatever.   (I mean here- 
> https://www.royalmail.com/find-a-postcode )

London is the Post Town. Stratford and West Kensington are not relevant
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-21 Thread Chris Hodges


On 21/12/2020 15:48, Mark Goodge wrote:


One of the reasons there are so many fields is that each field only 
ever contains a single type of data. There are no multi-purpose 
fields. So there are separate fields for name and number. And "number" 
is defined internally as an integer value, precisely in order to make 
it impossible to put anything other than a number into it. Which 
means, therefore, that something like 7A, or 7-11, has to go into the 
name field as the database simply won't allow it to go into the number.



...
There's absolutely no need to replicate that complexity on a non-PAF 
database, such as OSM. For almost all practical purposes, name/number 
can be a single field. 


In fact I'd suggest the using a separate integer field for a purely 
numeric house number, and a string field for an alphanumeric house 
number (which may after all have a name as well) is bad design.  
Normally-numeric identifiers aren't really numbers. That's the sort of 
bad design that we should only be copying blindly if absolute 
compatibility is required.



Many people here will, I'm sure, have seen this non-exhaustive list of 
"Falsehoods Programmers Believe about Addresses", but for those that 
haven't, it illustrates some of these issues (and some we escape in the 
UK) quite nicely: 
https://www.mjt.me.uk/posts/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-addresses/


Chris


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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-21 Thread Chris Hill



On 21/12/2020 15:59, Adam Snape wrote:

Hi,

Post towns may be somewhat arbitrary, but they are at least a 
verifiable national scheme which we can use for addressing every 
location in the country. That has to have some benefits compared to 
each individual mapper deciding where they believe each address falls  
- easy for many places, likely contentious for others. The other 
consistent scheme we could use is tagging by local authority but 
that's likely to annoy just as many people.
How are they verifiable? There is no open source that is compatible with 
the OSM licence that I am aware of that lets us look up an address. If I 
walk down a street, recording house numbers / names I know the number, 
street name and the place I am in, I have no idea what RM choose as the 
postal town. There are no name boards to see.


I also disagree with the assertion that post towns are no longer used 
or only of use to RM. Whilst a street address and postcode should 
suffice, there is an expectation that post is fully addressed. By 
including the full address, post can still arrive at the correct 
address despite an obscured, incorrect or illegible postcode. The 
advantage of a consistent national scheme of addressing is as useful 
to other couriers in this regard as it is to RM. If you should use 
parcel labels supplied by the couriers I have usually found them to 
follow RM's addressing scheme including the relevant post town.


Royal mail deliver by house number / name and street name. Ask a postie 
- I have and they confirm that. The sorting above that (to divide into 
rounds) goes by postcode. Latters without postcodes are delayed, even RM 
say that in a round about way.


Other organisations use the RM address lists because that is the only 
way to get addresses in the UK. They buy the PAF from Royal Mail then 
adapt it as needed in their own system. They include the bunkum that RM 
publish just because it is there. Postal towns were ALL about directing 
post in bulk to Royal Mail sorting offices where ever they happened to 
be and as postcodes because more established, postal town stopped being 
useful. Most sorting office have been consolidated or closed, yet the 
postal town part of the PAF has not changed - because it is no longer 
useful. RM just can't be bothered to clean up useless data in the same 
way they left the old counties in the PAF.


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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-21 Thread Ken Kilfedder


If you search for an address on the RM website, I find that (at least in 
London) it does not suggest the post town is used at all, just "London", not 
"Stratford" or "West Kensington" or whatever.   (I mean here- 
https://www.royalmail.com/find-a-postcode )

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On Mon, 21 Dec 2020, at 3:59 PM, Adam Snape wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Post towns may be somewhat arbitrary, but they are at least a verifiable 
> national scheme which we can use for addressing every location in the 
> country. That has to have some benefits compared to each individual mapper 
> deciding where they believe each address falls  - easy for many places, 
> likely contentious for others. The other consistent scheme we could use is 
> tagging by local authority but that's likely to annoy just as many people.
> 
> I also disagree with the assertion that post towns are no longer used or only 
> of use to RM. Whilst a street address and postcode should suffice, there is 
> an expectation that post is fully addressed. By including the full address, 
> post can still arrive at the correct address despite an obscured, incorrect 
> or illegible postcode. The advantage of a consistent national scheme of 
> addressing is as useful to other couriers in this regard as it is to RM. If 
> you should use parcel labels supplied by the couriers I have usually found 
> them to follow RM's addressing scheme including the relevant post town.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Adam
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-21 Thread Ken Kilfedder

> I just add `name`="Fourth Row" to the `building=terrace` for simplicity, 
> although duplicating with `addr:housename` also seems OK.

For these terraces in my neck of the woods, sometimes the numbering continues 
on the rest of the street.   For these, I use a landuse=residential with name= 
set to the name of the terrace.   Like this: 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/643172532 . Those houses have the address 
"160 Langthorne Road" etc. and "St. Patrick's Terrace" is of historic/heritage 
interest.  (In my view!)

In other cases, (like this one https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/870814215 ) 
the house-number sequence is different from the main road. (e.g. there is a "1 
Margery Terrace" and a different "1 Margery Park Road").   So here I've created 
a named section of footway to bear the terrace numbering, as well as a named 
residential area to contain the footway, houses and gardens.   

I don't claim this is the best option - I offer another set of alternatives.   
But at least searching for addresses will probably give the expected result (I 
think?).


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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-21 Thread Adam Snape

Hi,

Post towns may be somewhat arbitrary, but they are at least a verifiable
national scheme which we can use for addressing every location in the
country. That has to have some benefits compared to each individual mapper
deciding where they believe each address falls  - easy for many places,
likely contentious for others. The other consistent scheme we could use is
tagging by local authority but that's likely to annoy just as many people.

I also disagree with the assertion that post towns are no longer used or
only of use to RM. Whilst a street address and postcode should suffice,
there is an expectation that post is fully addressed. By including the full
address, post can still arrive at the correct address despite an obscured,
incorrect or illegible postcode. The advantage of a consistent national
scheme of addressing is as useful to other couriers in this regard as it is
to RM. If you should use parcel labels supplied by the couriers I have
usually found them to follow RM's addressing scheme including the relevant
post town.

Kind regards,

Adam
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-21 Thread James Derrick


Hi,

On 20/12/2020 15:50, Alan Mackie wrote:

I'm also unclear how to tag numbered houses in named terraces.
addr:housename doesn't seem appropriate if they are shared along an 
entire row and addr:street already has a value.


In NE England there are a number of 1850ish - 1900ish terraces where the 
terrace is named, rather than the surrounding highway.


This caused me a lot of confusion when starting out cycle surveying and 
mapping as what street signs there were, conflicted. :-)


A good indication of such a situation up here is a battered enamel tin 
plate (dark blue rusty) or cast iron (just rusty) name plate on the 
terrace - original, and probably installed when the highway was 
compacted earth!


I just add `name`="Fourth Row" to the `building=terrace` for simplicity, 
although duplicating with `addr:housename` also seems OK.


These days, I also use the JOSM terracer to break terraces into 
dwellings - survey, count the chimneys, or check the high-res Bing back 
garden fence imagery.



I've also run into this for blocks of flats. "Block B" doesn't seem 
like a housename either? The addr:block tags seems to be for named 
city blocks.


Do we have some sort of local grouping tag?


There's a few options mentioned in 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr (which is probably the 
issue here - the lowest common denominator across cultures will always 
give confusion!).


I've used `addr:unit` for commercial premises (like 1A, 1B, 2, etc for 
shops) but `addr:block` seems to be for a very different use case (grid 
iron city blocks - Fifteenth and...).


The simple `name` or `addr:housename` tag kind of fits the hierarchy, so 
KISS?


Happy Mapping,


James
--
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li...@jamesderrick.org, Cramlington, England
I wouldn't be a volunteer if you paid me...
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/James%20Derrick


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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-21 Thread Mark Goodge




On 21/12/2020 15:07, Andy Mabbett wrote:

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 at 12:50, Colin Smale  wrote:


Royal Mail say that a house number must be numeric, and anything else
(like Rose Cottage, 7A, 3-7, 11/13 etc) should go in the house name field.


So in  a row of three adjacent, identical houses, known as 11, 11A,
and 15, two have numbers and one has a name? That's not logical.


You have to bear in mind here that the point of Royal Mail's addressing 
system is to get post from origin to destination. It isn't intended to 
provide a consistent means of labelling adjacent properties.


The full PAF has 20 different fields. Some of those are always populated 
for every postal address. Others are usually blank, and only 
occasionally populated. And some are either blank or have a value 
depending on circumstances.


One of the reasons there are so many fields is that each field only ever 
contains a single type of data. There are no multi-purpose fields. So 
there are separate fields for name and number. And "number" is defined 
internally as an integer value, precisely in order to make it impossible 
to put anything other than a number into it. Which means, therefore, 
that something like 7A, or 7-11, has to go into the name field as the 
database simply won't allow it to go into the number.


In practice, though, that makes no difference to users as that 
distinction is handled internally by the PAF software. When displayed, 
the name and/or number will be shown on screen (or printed on paper) in 
the same output position on the address, either concatenated (if both 
are present) or either/or (if only one is).


There's absolutely no need to replicate that complexity on a non-PAF 
database, such as OSM. For almost all practical purposes, name/number 
can be a single field.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-21 Thread Chris Hill

On 21/12/2020 15:28, Colin Smale wrote:

On 2020-12-21 16:07, Andy Mabbett wrote:

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 at 12:50, Colin Smale > wrote:

Royal Mail say that a house number must be numeric, and anything else
(like Rose Cottage, 7A, 3-7, 11/13 etc) should go in the house name
field.

So in a row of three adjacent, identical houses, known as 11, 11A,
and 15, two have numbers and one has a name? That's not logical.

Hey, this is Royal Mail we are talking about here...
Building Number must be numeric, max length=4
https://www.poweredbypaf.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Latest-Programmers_guide_Edition-7-Version-6.pdf

Do you think we could get away from talking about Royal Mail please as
though they are the only way to create addresses.

The original question was about how to represent an address *in OSM*.

I have seen a number of replies that seem to say that Royal Mail is the
authority on addressing, they are not!

Addresses are created by Local Authorities, not Royal Mail, RM only
supply the postcode.

No one can claim that Royal Mail's handling of addresses is great, we
have an opportunity to create useful, meaningful addresses in an Open
database that could become the go-to place for addressing in the same
way that OSM is steadily becoming the map of choice.

Let's start by dropping any address component that is only useful to a
single company and that doesn't benefit anyone else, namely the postal
town. It is not needed and it is confusing. Let's not compound the mess
that RM has made of addresses in the UK by repeating their mistakes.

No postal town in OSM addresses please.

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

On 2020-12-21 16:07, Andy Mabbett wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 at 12:50, Colin Smale  wrote:
> 
>> Royal Mail say that a house number must be numeric, and anything else
>> (like Rose Cottage, 7A, 3-7, 11/13 etc) should go in the house name field.
> 
> So in  a row of three adjacent, identical houses, known as 11, 11A,
> and 15, two have numbers and one has a name? That's not logical.

Hey, this is Royal Mail we are talking about here... 

Building Number must be numeric, max length=4 

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-21 Thread Andy Mabbett

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 at 12:50, Colin Smale  wrote:

> Royal Mail say that a house number must be numeric, and anything else
> (like Rose Cottage, 7A, 3-7, 11/13 etc) should go in the house name field.

So in  a row of three adjacent, identical houses, known as 11, 11A,
and 15, two have numbers and one has a name? That's not logical.

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-21 Thread Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 at 12:02, Alan Mackie  wrote:
>
> I struggle with what to call the  in that example.
>
> A recent suggestion for named terraces was to use addr:street= 
> and addr:parentstreet=, but if the  relates the 
> whole building to to parentstreet, then reconstructing an address seems 
> impossible.

In cases where a building/property has a number and/or name on a main
street and is then sub-divided into dwellings, I would put the
building/property info in addr:housenumber and/or addr:housename with
addr:street as the main street. You then need a way to tag the
individual dwelling identifiers. Looking at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr#Detailed_subkeys it looks
like addr:unit might be the best tag to use.

This is a different way of thinking about things from the "named
terrace" as a sub-street approach. There are certainly real
sub-streets branching off main streets that could use addr:street=*
and addr:parentstreet=* that will want that approach. And there will
be instances of named/numbered buildings that have flats or
appartments within them that will want the approach above. There will
be probably be borderline cases between the two that could use either
scheme, though if the main property/building has a number on the main
street, you wouldn't be able to use the sub-street approach.

Robert.

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

On 2020-12-21 13:01, Alan Mackie wrote:

> I struggle with what to call the  in that example. 
> 
> A recent suggestion for named terraces was to use addr:street= 
> and addr:parentstreet=, but if the  relates the 
> whole building to to parentstreet, then reconstructing an address seems 
> impossible. 
> 
> The closest existing tag seems to be add:housename=, but I 
> don't know if that stretches the definition too much.

That will cause problems if the constituent parts (flats, houses in a
terrace etc) have a "name" instead of a number. Royal Mail say that a
house number must be numeric, and anything else (like Rose Cottage, 7A,
3-7, 11/13 etc) should go in the house name field. The OSM Wiki allows
non-numeric values though for some cases. 

> On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 at 06:41, Peter Neale via Talk-GB 
>  wrote: 
> 
>> At the risk of throwing another edge case into the pot (and mixing 
>> metaphors), can I ask how I should tag our flat? 
>> 
>> The Post Office Official postcode checker renders it as: 
>> 
>> Flat  
>>  
>>   
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> where  refers to the whole block and is common to all the 
>> flats. 
>> 
>> I cannot see what the Post Office is calling the various data fields, but I 
>> assume OSM would be happy with (taking elements from above)  
>> 
>> addr:housenumber= 
>> 
>> addr:street= 
>> addr:city= 
>> addr:postcode= 
>> 
>> That just leaves me to deal with the "Flat" element. 
>> 
>> Consulting the Wiki, I THINK I can cover that with: 
>> 
>> add:flats=  (for one specific flat) 
>> 
>> ...or addr:flats= (for the whole block) 
>> 
>> However, I unsure whether to include the word "Flat" in the value field of 
>> "addr:flats=*", or not.  The Wiki page for Key:addr includes, as an example, 
>> "addr:flats=Suite 110A", which seems fine for a single living space unit.  
>> It could be called "Flat 110A", "Suite 110A", "Apartment 110A", etc., so 
>> including the descriptor word could be useful to the data consumer.  
>> However, the Wiki page for Key:addr:flats shows only numeric values.  
>> 
>> TagInfo shows 203.5k uses of "addr:flats", but only 38 uses of 
>> "addr:flats=*flat*" and 42 uses of "addr:flats=*suite*", again suggesting 
>> that only the unique value(s) (e.g. "1", "2", "13B", etc.)  are sufficiently 
>> used to warrant data consumers catering for them.  
>> 
>> So, should I omit the word "Flat", "Suite", "Apartment" etc., leaving the 
>> data consumer to guess (or to default to "Flat...")? 
>> 
>> Regards, 
>> Peter 
>> 
>> On Monday, 21 December 2020, 09:30:37 GMT, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
>>  wrote: 
>> 
>> Like it or not, in the UK addresses are defined by Royal Mail. They're
>> introduced the concept of a "postal town", and this is one of the few
>> common elements that each address must always have. Once you accept
>> that the Post Town is intended to be a nearby significant place (to
>> help with delivery routing and identifying the rough location of the
>> addressed property) rather than being a place that the address is
>> "in", then it's really no more of a fiction than the postcode. (The
>> village I grew up in had a GL postcode, despite it being in
>> Worcestershire. I've currently got an IP postcode, despite being in
>> Norfolk and closer to Norwich (NR) than Ipswich.)
>> 
>> On the basis that it's a required part of each address, I would
>> recommend that we do store the post town in OSM addresses. There are
>> significant advantages to storing it in a consistent way, and the best
>> existing tag to do this would be addr:city. (We wouldn't want to
>> invent a new tag (e.g. addr:posttown), since as a UK-only term that
>> will simply be ignored by most international data consumers.
>> 
>> We then have a possible hierarchy of named localities between the
>> street and the post town to record as part of the address. I would
>> suggest using appropriate values from the set {addr:hamlet,
>> addr:village, addr:town, addr:suburb}. (I don't see any other
>> alternatives to this.) Most of these key names already have a
>> reasonable number of uses in OSM (addr:town is the lowest, but that
>> still has 59k uses), so it seems that others are doing this too.
>> 
>> Regarding properties (e.g. on named terraces or sub-streets), where
>> there are two street names (Thoroughfare and Dependent Throughourfare
>> in Rail Mail terminology) then we need a second key to store the other
>> street name under. Certainly if there is an addr:housenumber or
>> addr:housename, I think we need to use addr:street for the
>> street/terrace name on which that name or number applies. Otherwise,
>> software that's unaware of the second key name will think it's house
>> number n on the main street not the sub-street. There are already
>> about 3.5k uses of addr:parentstreet in OSM, so I'd recommend using
>> that for the main street, and addr:street for the terrace or
>> sub-street name. If any data-users aren't aware of addr:parentstreet
>> it's not a major issue, since it will still pick up the

Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-21 Thread Alan Mackie

I struggle with what to call the  in that example.

A recent suggestion for named terraces was to use addr:street=
and addr:parentstreet=, but if the  relates the
whole building to to parentstreet, then reconstructing an address seems
impossible.

The closest existing tag seems to be add:housename=, but I
don't know if that stretches the definition too much.

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 at 06:41, Peter Neale via Talk-GB <
talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> At the risk of throwing another edge case into the pot (and mixing
> metaphors), can I ask how I should tag our flat?
>
> The Post Office Official postcode checker renders it as:
>
> Flat 
> 
>  
> 
> 
>
> where  refers to the whole block and is common to all the
> flats.
>
> I cannot see what the Post Office is calling the various data fields, but
> I assume OSM would be happy with (taking elements from above)
>
> addr:housenumber=
> addr:street=
> addr:city=
> addr:postcode=
>
> That just leaves me to deal with the "Flat" element.
>
> Consulting the Wiki, I THINK I can cover that with:
>
> add:flats=  (for one specific flat)
>
> ...or addr:flats= (for the whole block)
>
> However, I unsure whether to include the word "Flat" in the value field of
> "addr:flats=*", or not.  The Wiki page for Key:addr includes, as an
> example, "addr:flats=Suite 110A", which seems fine for a single living
> space unit.  It could be called "Flat 110A", "Suite 110A", "Apartment
> 110A", etc., so including the descriptor word could be useful to the data
> consumer.  However, the Wiki page for Key:addr:flats shows only numeric
> values.
>
> TagInfo shows 203.5k uses of "addr:flats", but only 38 uses of
> "addr:flats=*flat*" and 42 uses of "addr:flats=*suite*", again suggesting
> that only the unique value(s) (e.g. "1", "2", "13B", etc.)  are
> sufficiently used to warrant data consumers catering for them.
>
> So, should I omit the word "Flat", "Suite", "Apartment" etc., leaving the
> data consumer to guess (or to default to "Flat...")?
>
>
> Regards,
> Peter
>
>
> On Monday, 21 December 2020, 09:30:37 GMT, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) <
> robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Like it or not, in the UK addresses are defined by Royal Mail. They're
> introduced the concept of a "postal town", and this is one of the few
> common elements that each address must always have. Once you accept
> that the Post Town is intended to be a nearby significant place (to
> help with delivery routing and identifying the rough location of the
> addressed property) rather than being a place that the address is
> "in", then it's really no more of a fiction than the postcode. (The
> village I grew up in had a GL postcode, despite it being in
> Worcestershire. I've currently got an IP postcode, despite being in
> Norfolk and closer to Norwich (NR) than Ipswich.)
>
> On the basis that it's a required part of each address, I would
> recommend that we do store the post town in OSM addresses. There are
> significant advantages to storing it in a consistent way, and the best
> existing tag to do this would be addr:city. (We wouldn't want to
> invent a new tag (e.g. addr:posttown), since as a UK-only term that
> will simply be ignored by most international data consumers.
>
> We then have a possible hierarchy of named localities between the
> street and the post town to record as part of the address. I would
> suggest using appropriate values from the set {addr:hamlet,
> addr:village, addr:town, addr:suburb}. (I don't see any other
> alternatives to this.) Most of these key names already have a
> reasonable number of uses in OSM (addr:town is the lowest, but that
> still has 59k uses), so it seems that others are doing this too.
>
> Regarding properties (e.g. on named terraces or sub-streets), where
> there are two street names (Thoroughfare and Dependent Throughourfare
> in Rail Mail terminology) then we need a second key to store the other
> street name under. Certainly if there is an addr:housenumber or
> addr:housename, I think we need to use addr:street for the
> street/terrace name on which that name or number applies. Otherwise,
> software that's unaware of the second key name will think it's house
> number n on the main street not the sub-street. There are already
> about 3.5k uses of addr:parentstreet in OSM, so I'd recommend using
> that for the main street, and addr:street for the terrace or
> sub-street name. If any data-users aren't aware of addr:parentstreet
> it's not a major issue, since it will still pick up the correct
> terrace/sub-street name, and the locality, which will probably be
> enough to use as an address.
>
> I would strongly argue against using addr2 in connection with
> sub-streets, as it's not standardised, and is likely to not be picked
> up by any software. There's an abondoned proposal at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/addr2 , but that
> was for the case of a single property on a street corner having two
> formal addresses, one on each street,

Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

That's why RM have a Dependent Locality, to distinguish between cases
like this. If the OSM addr:* tags are to represent postal addresses (and
that seems to be the consensus) then OSM should offer a place for the
Dependent Locality. RM say the Post Town is a mandatory component; why
do you disagree with them? 

If you are sending post to someone, you will most likely have got their
address from them, and not got it by reverse geocoding. They, in turn,
will have been told their postal address by Royal Mail. Your correct
postal address is ".., Charlbury, Chipping Norton, .." whether you like
it or not... Is OSM to record the "postal address" or "people's
perception of a postal address"? Or should OSM not define that, and
allow "any old definition of an address"?

You seem very anti-RM because they are commercial; however they also
have statutory roles, whether we like it or not. One of those is
"guardian of postal addresses". In your references to other carriers do
you really expect a house to have multiple addresses according to the
carrier? If I order something online for example, I fill in my (only)
address. I don't want to have a list of addresses, depending on the
carrier chosen by the webshop (which is actually none of my business
anyway). I would say that alternatives to the PAF give alternative
sources of information, not alternative addresses. 

On 2020-12-21 12:14, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

> Robert Whittaker wrote:
>> On the basis that it's a required part of each address, I 
>> would recommend that we do store the post town in OSM 
>> addresses. There are significant advantages to storing it 
>> in a consistent way, and the best existing tag to do this 
>> would be addr:city. (We wouldn't want to invent a new tag 
>> (e.g. addr:posttown), since as a UK-only term that 
>> will simply be ignored by most international data
>> consumers. 
> 
> I quite strongly disagree with this.
> 
> My address is x Market Street, Charlbury, Oxfordshire. My addr:city is 
> therefore Charlbury.
> 
> This suggestion would see my house tagged with addr:street=Market Street, 
> addr:city=Chipping Norton, because Chipping Norton is the Royal Mail post 
> town.
> 
> If a letter is addressed to x Market Street, Chipping Norton, it will end up 
> at x Market Street, Chipping Norton (and yes, there is one). Not x Market 
> Street, Charlbury. You suggest using addr:town to get around this, but that 
> seems to fall foul of your "ignored by most data consumers" point.
> 
> A post town isn't a required part of an address. It's an occasionally 
> suggested part of an address for customers of Royal Mail, useful only in 
> circumstances where the postcode is omitted. Royal Mail themselves don't make 
> any reference to it in their own consumer-facing recommendations, they just 
> say "the town" 
> (https://personal.help.royalmail.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/81/~/how-to-address-your-mail-%28clear-addressing%29).
> 
> Royal Mail is one privately-owned delivery business which is heading rapidly 
> towards being a minority provider, and by some measures already is. Other 
> providers are not beholden to PAF and are increasingly looking outside it to 
> their own datasets. Post towns are in any case superfluous for addresses 
> derived directly from PAF (e.g. via an autocomplete mechanism on a website), 
> because you have the postcode in that case. And that's just the delivery 
> market - addresses serve other purposes, principally around 
> geocoding/routing, for which post towns are irrelevant.
> 
> More philosophically, post towns violate the "on the ground" principle. No 
> one here writes their address as Chipping Norton unless PAF autocompletes it 
> for them. No one has Chipping Norton on their letterhead. Trusting some 
> remote third-party database in preference to local knowledge is not what OSM 
> does, and particularly not OSM in the UK.
> 
> By all means namespace it (royal_mail:addr:city) or use a bespoke tag for 
> what is a bespoke concept (addr:post_town). But let's not remove useful 
> information (the actual town/city) in favour of it, and let's not tag as if 
> post towns are an intrinsic part of UK addresses, because they're not.
> 
> Richard 
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-21 Thread Lester Caine


On 21/12/2020 11:14, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
More philosophically, post towns violate the “on the ground” principle. 
No one here writes their address as Chipping Norton unless PAF 
autocompletes it for them. No one has Chipping Norton on their 
letterhead. Trusting some remote third-party database in preference to 
local knowledge is not what OSM does, and particularly not OSM in the UK.


By all means namespace it (royal_mail:addr:city) or use a bespoke tag 
for what is a bespoke concept (addr:post_town). But let’s not remove 
useful information (the actual town/city) in favour of it, and let’s not 
tag as if post towns are an intrinsic part of UK addresses, because 
they’re not.


I have a similar problem with 'PAF autocomplete' ... my business address 
does not actually exist at all and the post code covers a large area of 
the business park, so even that is of little help to any delivery 
driver. Adding a phone number to the delivery details helps some of the 
time and with temporary drivers being used in the run up to Christmas 
I've had to talk a couple in this last week.


Full address is
L.S.Caine Electronic Service
Willersey Suite
De Montfort House
Enterprise Way
Vale Park
Evesham
WR11 1GS

The number of websites that do not allow for that in terms of numbers of 
lines or limiting lime length preventing two elements per line ... at 
least some of the delivery services are using OSM these days ... De 
Montfort House, Enterprise Way takes them straight to the door :)


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-21 Thread Peter Neale via Talk-GB

At the risk of throwing another edge case into the pot (and mixing metaphors), 
can I ask how I should tag our flat?
The Post Office Official postcode checker renders it as:
Flat  
where  refers to the whole block and is common to all the flats.
I cannot see what the Post Office is calling the various data fields, but I 
assume OSM would be happy with (taking elements from above) 
addr:housenumber=addr:street=addr:city=
addr:postcode=
That just leaves me to deal with the "Flat" element.
Consulting the Wiki, I THINK I can cover that with:
add:flats=  (for one specific flat)
...or addr:flats= (for the whole block)
However, I unsure whether to include the word "Flat" in the value field of 
"addr:flats=*", or not.  The Wiki page for Key:addr includes, as an example, 
"addr:flats=Suite 110A", which seems fine for a single living space unit.  It 
could be called "Flat 110A", "Suite 110A", "Apartment 110A", etc., so including 
the descriptor word could be useful to the data consumer.  However, the Wiki 
page for Key:addr:flats shows only numeric values. 
TagInfo shows 203.5k uses of "addr:flats", but only 38 uses of 
"addr:flats=*flat*" and 42 uses of "addr:flats=*suite*", again suggesting that 
only the unique value(s) (e.g. "1", "2", "13B", etc.)  are sufficiently used to 
warrant data consumers catering for them. 
So, should I omit the word "Flat", "Suite", "Apartment" etc., leaving the data 
consumer to guess (or to default to "Flat...")?

Regards,Peter

On Monday, 21 December 2020, 09:30:37 GMT, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
 wrote:  

 Like it or not, in the UK addresses are defined by Royal Mail. They're
introduced the concept of a "postal town", and this is one of the few
common elements that each address must always have. Once you accept
that the Post Town is intended to be a nearby significant place (to
help with delivery routing and identifying the rough location of the
addressed property) rather than being a place that the address is
"in", then it's really no more of a fiction than the postcode. (The
village I grew up in had a GL postcode, despite it being in
Worcestershire. I've currently got an IP postcode, despite being in
Norfolk and closer to Norwich (NR) than Ipswich.)

On the basis that it's a required part of each address, I would
recommend that we do store the post town in OSM addresses. There are
significant advantages to storing it in a consistent way, and the best
existing tag to do this would be addr:city. (We wouldn't want to
invent a new tag (e.g. addr:posttown), since as a UK-only term that
will simply be ignored by most international data consumers.

We then have a possible hierarchy of named localities between the
street and the post town to record as part of the address. I would
suggest using appropriate values from the set {addr:hamlet,
addr:village, addr:town, addr:suburb}. (I don't see any other
alternatives to this.) Most of these key names already have a
reasonable number of uses in OSM (addr:town is the lowest, but that
still has 59k uses), so it seems that others are doing this too.

Regarding properties (e.g. on named terraces or sub-streets), where
there are two street names (Thoroughfare and Dependent Throughourfare
in Rail Mail terminology) then we need a second key to store the other
street name under. Certainly if there is an addr:housenumber or
addr:housename, I think we need to use addr:street for the
street/terrace name on which that name or number applies. Otherwise,
software that's unaware of the second key name will think it's house
number n on the main street not the sub-street. There are already
about 3.5k uses of addr:parentstreet in OSM, so I'd recommend using
that for the main street, and addr:street for the terrace or
sub-street name. If any data-users aren't aware of addr:parentstreet
it's not a major issue, since it will still pick up the correct
terrace/sub-street name, and the locality, which will probably be
enough to use as an address.

I would strongly argue against using addr2 in connection with
sub-streets, as it's not standardised, and is likely to not be picked
up by any software. There's an abondoned proposal at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/addr2 , but that
was for the case of a single property on a street corner having two
formal addresses, one on each street, not for the case of two streets
in a hierarchy.

Robert.

On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 12:47, Dave Abbott  wrote:
> I am trying to make sure I tag addresses correctly. I am currently
> trying to understand how to map in my area.
>
> The postal addresses are like:
>
> 99 Postal Street
> Smalltown
> Largertown
> West Yorks XY9 7GY
>
> Smalltown is geographically separate to Largertown, which however is the
> Postal Town. Omitting Smalltown from the address is probably correct
> postally-speaking, but local residents would object as Smalltown is seen
> as completely separate to other places under the same Postal Town.
>
> Currently tagging as -
> addr:housenumber=99
>

Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-21 Thread Richard Fairhurst

Robert Whittaker wrote:
> On the basis that it's a required part of each address, I
> would recommend that we do store the post town in OSM
> addresses. There are significant advantages to storing it
> in a consistent way, and the best existing tag to do this
> would be addr:city. (We wouldn't want to invent a new tag
> (e.g. addr:posttown), since as a UK-only term that
> will simply be ignored by most international data
> consumers.

I quite strongly disagree with this.

My address is x Market Street, Charlbury, Oxfordshire. My addr:city is 
therefore Charlbury.

This suggestion would see my house tagged with addr:street=Market Street, 
addr:city=Chipping Norton, because Chipping Norton is the Royal Mail post town.

If a letter is addressed to x Market Street, Chipping Norton, it will end up at 
x Market Street, Chipping Norton (and yes, there is one). Not x Market Street, 
Charlbury. You suggest using addr:town to get around this, but that seems to 
fall foul of your “ignored by most data consumers” point.

A post town isn’t a required part of an address. It’s an occasionally suggested 
part of an address for customers of Royal Mail, useful only in circumstances 
where the postcode is omitted. Royal Mail themselves don’t make any reference 
to it in their own consumer-facing recommendations, they just say “the town” 
(https://personal.help.royalmail.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/81/~/how-to-address-your-mail-%28clear-addressing%29).

Royal Mail is one privately-owned delivery business which is heading rapidly 
towards being a minority provider, and by some measures already is. Other 
providers are not beholden to PAF and are increasingly looking outside it to 
their own datasets. Post towns are in any case superfluous for addresses 
derived directly from PAF (e.g. via an autocomplete mechanism on a website), 
because you have the postcode in that case. And that’s just the delivery market 
- addresses serve other purposes, principally around geocoding/routing, for 
which post towns are irrelevant.

More philosophically, post towns violate the “on the ground” principle. No one 
here writes their address as Chipping Norton unless PAF autocompletes it for 
them. No one has Chipping Norton on their letterhead. Trusting some remote 
third-party database in preference to local knowledge is not what OSM does, and 
particularly not OSM in the UK.

By all means namespace it (royal_mail:addr:city) or use a bespoke tag for what 
is a bespoke concept (addr:post_town). But let’s not remove useful information 
(the actual town/city) in favour of it, and let’s not tag as if post towns are 
an intrinsic part of UK addresses, because they’re not.

Richard
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

On 2020-12-21 10:27, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:

> Regarding properties (e.g. on named terraces or sub-streets), where
> there are two street names (Thoroughfare and Dependent Throughourfare
> in Rail Mail terminology) then we need a second key to store the other
> street name under. Certainly if there is an addr:housenumber or
> addr:housename, I think we need to use addr:street for the
> street/terrace name on which that name or number applies. Otherwise,
> software that's unaware of the second key name will think it's house
> number n on the main street not the sub-street. There are already
> about 3.5k uses of addr:parentstreet in OSM, so I'd recommend using
> that for the main street, and addr:street for the terrace or
> sub-street name. If any data-users aren't aware of addr:parentstreet
> it's not a major issue, since it will still pick up the correct
> terrace/sub-street name, and the locality, which will probably be
> enough to use as an address.

Indeed, exactly that, Royal Mail say if you don't have space for both
the Thoroughfare and the Dependent Thoroughfare, use the Dependent
Thoroughfare (sub-street) and leave out the Thoroughfare (main street);
the post town / dependent locality / postcode will do the rest. 

Using addr:housename for the substreet is definitely a bad idea, as an
address could actually need both: "Mon Repos, Rose Cottages, Green Lane"
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-21 Thread Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)

Like it or not, in the UK addresses are defined by Royal Mail. They're
introduced the concept of a "postal town", and this is one of the few
common elements that each address must always have. Once you accept
that the Post Town is intended to be a nearby significant place (to
help with delivery routing and identifying the rough location of the
addressed property) rather than being a place that the address is
"in", then it's really no more of a fiction than the postcode. (The
village I grew up in had a GL postcode, despite it being in
Worcestershire. I've currently got an IP postcode, despite being in
Norfolk and closer to Norwich (NR) than Ipswich.)

On the basis that it's a required part of each address, I would
recommend that we do store the post town in OSM addresses. There are
significant advantages to storing it in a consistent way, and the best
existing tag to do this would be addr:city. (We wouldn't want to
invent a new tag (e.g. addr:posttown), since as a UK-only term that
will simply be ignored by most international data consumers.

We then have a possible hierarchy of named localities between the
street and the post town to record as part of the address. I would
suggest using appropriate values from the set {addr:hamlet,
addr:village, addr:town, addr:suburb}. (I don't see any other
alternatives to this.) Most of these key names already have a
reasonable number of uses in OSM (addr:town is the lowest, but that
still has 59k uses), so it seems that others are doing this too.

Regarding properties (e.g. on named terraces or sub-streets), where
there are two street names (Thoroughfare and Dependent Throughourfare
in Rail Mail terminology) then we need a second key to store the other
street name under. Certainly if there is an addr:housenumber or
addr:housename, I think we need to use addr:street for the
street/terrace name on which that name or number applies. Otherwise,
software that's unaware of the second key name will think it's house
number n on the main street not the sub-street. There are already
about 3.5k uses of addr:parentstreet in OSM, so I'd recommend using
that for the main street, and addr:street for the terrace or
sub-street name. If any data-users aren't aware of addr:parentstreet
it's not a major issue, since it will still pick up the correct
terrace/sub-street name, and the locality, which will probably be
enough to use as an address.

I would strongly argue against using addr2 in connection with
sub-streets, as it's not standardised, and is likely to not be picked
up by any software. There's an abondoned proposal at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/addr2 , but that
was for the case of a single property on a street corner having two
formal addresses, one on each street, not for the case of two streets
in a hierarchy.

Robert.

On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 12:47, Dave Abbott  wrote:
> I am trying to make sure I tag addresses correctly. I am currently
> trying to understand how to map in my area.
>
> The postal addresses are like:
>
> 99 Postal Street
> Smalltown
> Largertown
> West Yorks XY9 7GY
>
> Smalltown is geographically separate to Largertown, which however is the
> Postal Town. Omitting Smalltown from the address is probably correct
> postally-speaking, but local residents would object as Smalltown is seen
> as completely separate to other places under the same Postal Town.
>
> Currently tagging as -
> addr:housenumber=99
> addr:street=Postal Street
> addr:city=Smalltown, Largertown
>
> But I am pretty sure this is wrong.
>
> There is a page at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping which
> mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is in use.
> If correct I would be tagging as -
>
> addr:housenumber=99
> addr:street=Postal Street
> addr:town=Smalltown
> addr:city=Largertown
>
> Hoping someone can advise me as to the correct way to tag for the UK...
>
> Dave Abbott  (OSM user DaveyPorcy)
>
>
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-- 
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-20 Thread David Woolley


On 20/12/2020 23:21, SK53 wrote:
I'm aware of a number of terraces which are discontinuous, demonstrating 
that individual houses in a terrace are not building:part.


There is a set of maisonettes, which are both semi-detached 
horizontally, and split into four groups, with roads between them, 
around a roundabout, near me.  The individual maisonettes are numbered 
separately from the main street numbers, the development as a whole has 
no street number of its own, and actually has presences on roads with 
three different names!


It actually confuses the council's fly tip and street defect reporting 
app, which tends to reverse geocode it as though the maisonette's were 
directly numbered on the relevant road.  They failed to find one broken 
sign because of that.


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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

I don't think you can *deduce* the post town from the postcode, but you
can look it up, using the (non-open) PAF. You will need to use the full
postcode though, as sectors can be split amongst multiple post towns. 

Let's not drift too far from the original topic of how to represent
addresses. How to tag terraces and parts thereof is a different (though
related) subject. 

On 2020-12-21 00:21, SK53 wrote:

> Personally, I think this is still a sort of kludge, although no worse than 
> the ones I discussed in my blog pos [1]t. 
> 
> I'm aware of a number of terraces which are discontinuous, demonstrating that 
> individual houses in a terrace are not building:part. A typical example would 
> be a terrace bombed in the war where the bombed out houses were not replaced. 
> There is a "terrace" in Richings Park, Iver which looks just as if such a 
> scenario had occurred, however, the owner of the end house explained that the 
> developer ran out of money and never completed the terrace (the end houses 
> were planned to be fancier). 
> 
> At one stage I terraced buildings and left the outline of the terrace as well 
> as the individual houses which was a similar solution, but that will now lead 
> to lots of error messages. For S3DB (simple 3D buildings) describing the 
> entire terrace in terms of roof shape etc is often far easier than doing it 
> for individual houses, so there are other advantages. My main objection is 
> that it is not semantically accurate. 
> 
> The use of building=terrace both for entire terraces and individual houses in 
> the terrace also is something I would like to disambiguate. For instance use 
> building=terrace for the entire terrace & building=terraced_house for 
> individual houses in a terrace (this latter value may also work with 
> building:part in ways that give data consumers flexibility with the data). 
> Generic building=house is preferably avoided for something more precise 
> (detached, semidetached_house etc). I'd like to mark bungalows separately as, 
> at least in Britain, they tend to be a very distinct housing type which 
> building:levels=1 does not guarantee, but in various places, notably 
> Southend, there are masses of semidetached bungalows. 
> 
> On the topic of the OP, I'm broadly with Chris on this, pretty much as I set 
> out [2]7 years ago! I also think it's important that, for me at least, we're 
> not adding addresses in OSM just to create an open replica of PAF. There are 
> numerous other important uses of addresses over and above this and routing. 
> At the Open Addresses meeting [3] back in 2014 I participated in a discussion 
> on this very point, and a number of people from large well-known 
> organisations provided a good number of significant examples. I can't be more 
> explicit because the meeting was held under Chatham House rules. If we do 
> need to add postal towns, which I suspect we don't, then I would advocate for 
> a specific tag addr:postal_town or even addr:rm_postal_town. In practice I 
> would think postal towns can be deduced from post codes (i.e. externally to 
> OSM): wikipedia certainly have lists for many postcode areas. 
> 
> Jerry 
> 
> On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 19:23, ndrw  wrote: 
> 
>> On 20/12/2020 18:44, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:
>>> What you do is give the outline way "buildong=terrace" and 
>>> "name=" and all the houses with 
>>> "building:part=house". The software can then tell that all those 
>>> houses are part of the terrace called 
>> 
>> This is a good solution. I usually resort to simply not terracing the 
>> building and adding addresses as points and/or an addr:interpolation line.
>> 
>> In either case, if the name of the building is a part of the address 
>> ("dependent thoroughfare") there is currently no suitable OSM tag for 
>> it. I've seen cases of addr:place, addr:substreet or addr:parentstreet 
>> but there is no established consensus yet.
>> 
>> ndrw6
>> 
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> 
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Links:
--
[1]
http://sk53-osm.blogspot.com/2020/06/housing-terraces-in-wales-minor.html
[2]
http://sk53-osm.blogspot.com/2013/08/pfafing-about-opening-uk-address-data.html
[3]
http://sk53-osm.blogspot.com/2014/09/openstreetmap-at-uk-open-addresses.html___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-20 Thread SK53

Personally, I think this is still a sort of kludge, although no worse than
the ones I discussed in my blog pos

t.

I'm aware of a number of terraces which are discontinuous, demonstrating
that individual houses in a terrace are not building:part. A typical
example would be a terrace bombed in the war where the bombed out houses
were not replaced. There is a "terrace" in Richings Park, Iver which looks
just as if such a scenario had occurred, however, the owner of the end
house explained that the developer ran out of money and never completed the
terrace (the end houses were planned to be fancier).

At one stage I terraced buildings and left the outline of the terrace as
well as the individual houses which was a similar solution, but that will
now lead to lots of error messages. For S3DB (simple 3D buildings)
describing the entire terrace in terms of roof shape etc is often far
easier than doing it for individual houses, so there are other advantages.
My main objection is that it is not semantically accurate.

The use of building=terrace both for entire terraces and individual houses
in the terrace also is something I would like to disambiguate. For instance
use building=terrace for the entire terrace & building=terraced_house for
individual houses in a terrace (this latter value may also work with
building:part in ways that give data consumers flexibility with the data).
Generic building=house is preferably avoided for something more precise
(detached, semidetached_house etc). I'd like to mark bungalows separately
as, at least in Britain, they tend to be a very distinct housing type which
building:levels=1 does not guarantee, but in various places, notably
Southend, there are masses of semidetached bungalows.

On the topic of the OP, I'm broadly with Chris on this, pretty much as I
set out
7
years ago! I also think it's important that, for me at least, we're not
adding addresses in OSM just to create an open replica of PAF. There are
numerous other important uses of addresses over and above this and routing.
At the Open Addresses meeting

back in 2014 I participated in a discussion on this very point, and a
number of people from large well-known organisations provided a good number
of significant examples. I can't be more explicit because the meeting was
held under Chatham House rules. If we do need to add postal towns, which I
suspect we don't, then I would advocate for a specific tag addr:postal_town
or even addr:rm_postal_town. In practice I would think postal towns can be
deduced from post codes (i.e. externally to OSM): wikipedia certainly have
lists for many postcode areas.

Jerry

On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 19:23, ndrw  wrote:

> On 20/12/2020 18:44, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:
> > What you do is give the outline way "buildong=terrace" and
> > "name=" and all the houses with
> > "building:part=house". The software can then tell that all those
> > houses are part of the terrace called 
>
> This is a good solution. I usually resort to simply not terracing the
> building and adding addresses as points and/or an addr:interpolation line.
>
> In either case, if the name of the building is a part of the address
> ("dependent thoroughfare") there is currently no suitable OSM tag for
> it. I've seen cases of addr:place, addr:substreet or addr:parentstreet
> but there is no established consensus yet.
>
> ndrw6
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

On 2020-12-20 20:24, ipswichmap...@tutanota.com wrote:

> The housenumber and street would be tagged on the "building:part=house" 
> 
> Is this housrnumber belonging to the terrace or is it belonging to the 
> street? If it belongs to the terrace, I think even with this tagging software 
> wouldnt recognise this. 
> 
> In that case, this is the tagging O use (its not that good however): 
> 
> addr:housenumber=2 
> addr:place=Orchard Gardens 
> addr2:street=Green Lane 
> 
> I use addr2:street (this is accepted tagging, by the way) to indicate that 
> the street is a seperate address. 
> 
> This isnt ideal, of course

Put yourself in the place of a bit of software looking at OSM data and
trying to answer the questions: 
1) What is the (postal) address of these premises (being 2 Orchard
Cottages) 
=> correct answer is "2, Orchard Cottages, Green Lane" 
2) Where can I find "2 Orchard Cottages, Green Lane"? 
=> correct answer is the premises we started with 

Instead of looking for the ideal system, let's find something that is
good enough. I doubt we will ever find an ideal system that will fit all
the addressing systems in the world, or even in the UK (bilingual
addresses are another can of worms). 

If, looking only at the OSM data, a (reasonable) algorithm can be found
that leads reliably to the correct answer, then it is "good enough" 
If such an algorithm cannot be found, then the OSM data is "not good
enough" 
By "algorithm" I mean here a deterministic interpretation of OSM
tagging, including (where really necessary) the geometry (within
particular types of polygon for example).___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

The housenumber and street would be tagged on the "building:part=house"

Is this housrnumber belonging to the terrace or is it belonging to the street? 
If it belongs to the terrace, I think even with this tagging software wouldnt 
recognise this.

In that case, this is the tagging O use (its not that good however):

addr:housenumber=2
addr:place=Orchard Gardens
addr2:street=Green Lane

I use addr2:street (this is accepted tagging, by the way) to indicate that the 
street is a seperate address.

This isnt ideal, of course
-- 
 


20 Dec 2020, 18:52 by colin.sm...@xs4all.nl:

>
> On 2020-12-20 19:44, ipswichmap...@tutanota.com wrote:
>
>
>> What you do is give the outline way "buildong=terrace" and 
>> "name=" and all the houses with "building:part=house". The 
>> software can then tell that all those houses are part of the terrace called 
>> 
>>  
>>
>  
> So in the case like I referred to earlier, "2, Orchard Cottages, Green Lane" 
> would be tagged with addr:housenumber=2, and addr:street=Green Lane? And then 
> enclosed within "building=terrace, name=Orchard Cottages". Is the tag 
> building:part=house enough to indicate that the address is "2, Orchard 
> Cottages, Green Lane" and not "2, Green Lane"?
>  
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-20 Thread ndrw


On 20/12/2020 18:44, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:
What you do is give the outline way "buildong=terrace" and 
"name=" and all the houses with 
"building:part=house". The software can then tell that all those 
houses are part of the terrace called 


This is a good solution. I usually resort to simply not terracing the 
building and adding addresses as points and/or an addr:interpolation line.


In either case, if the name of the building is a part of the address 
("dependent thoroughfare") there is currently no suitable OSM tag for 
it. I've seen cases of addr:place, addr:substreet or addr:parentstreet 
but there is no established consensus yet.


ndrw6



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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-20 Thread ndrw


On 20/12/2020 16:09, Chris Hill wrote
Using the two separate towns is not correct. The house (or whatever) 
is not in Largertown,it is in Smalltown.


By convention addr:* tags are for addressing, not for mapping 
administrative boundaries. For the latter we can use is_in tags, 
although explicit admin boundaries are preferable.


Postal towns are in invention of Royal Mail. Correct addressing of any 
location are set by Local Authorities, not Royal Mail. There are no 
postal towns in LA addresses.


It is unfortunate Royal Mail is setting address information in such an 
arbitrary manner and that the resulting database is largely proprietary. 
But this is still the only addressing system we can use.


In the original example the 'Smalltown' (or indeed village or even 
hamlet) translates into addr:city in OSM. I know this may look 
confusing as a small villiage is not a city, but that is, IMHO, the 
correct way tobuild an OSM UK address.


Adding postal towns is not only redundant, but is misleading. It looks 
as though the way to find Smalltown would be first to go to 
Largertown, when that is very rarely the case. OSM addresses are 
hierarchical, RM addressing is not as postal town is usually a 
separate place.


It is common to have country specific addr:* tags but where possible we 
should strive to follow OSM tagging conventions, and addr:city is 
defined a town/village associated with the postcode.


I should have added that postcodes are a useful addition and my 
postcode overlays can help to workout what the correct postcode is for 
a given building. You can see more at https://codepoint.raggedred.net/


Yes, I am well aware of your overlays and have used them extensively in 
the past to map postcodes in East Anglia and several other areas. Thank 
you for providing and maintaining them.


A couple of years ago I've proposed a semi-automatic way of importing 
Code-Point Open postcodes to buildings, where building outlines are 
already available. As it is an imperfect solution the proposal has 
turned out rather unpopular. I still think having postcodes in the 
database far outweighs any inaccuracies that could arise, which in 
almost all cases are caused by buildings with multiple postcodes.


ndrw6



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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-20 Thread Alan Mackie

That still doesn't answer the addr: tag question.

I don't think we'd normally expect consumers to need to do such detailed
geometry parsing for address to interpretation.

I think we need a firmer scheme for divisions of privately managed stuff
e.g. business parks apartment 'complexes' and the like would be useful.

On Sun, 20 Dec 2020, 13:45 ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB, <
talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> What you do is give the outline way "buildong=terrace" and
> "name=" and all the houses with "building:part=house". The
> software can then tell that all those houses are part of the terrace called
> 
>
> --
>
>
> 20 Dec 2020, 17:30 by colin.sm...@xs4all.nl:
>
> On 2020-12-20 18:21, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:
>
> Tag the houses with addr:place maybe?
>
>
> IMHO a house is not a place
>
>
> Or, better method is to use the alternative terrace taggong scheme where
> each house is tagged as building:part=house within a larger
> building=terrace.  (Terracer plugin lets you do this if you check "keep
> outline way")
>
>
>
> That allows the building to be split into parts, but does it tell us how
> to put a distinct address on each part?
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

On 2020-12-20 19:44, ipswichmap...@tutanota.com wrote:

> What you do is give the outline way "buildong=terrace" and 
> "name=" and all the houses with "building:part=house". The 
> software can then tell that all those houses are part of the terrace called 
> 

So in the case like I referred to earlier, "2, Orchard Cottages, Green
Lane" would be tagged with addr:housenumber=2, and addr:street=Green
Lane? And then enclosed within "building=terrace, name=Orchard
Cottages". Is the tag building:part=house enough to indicate that the
address is "2, Orchard Cottages, Green Lane" and not "2, Green Lane"?___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

What you do is give the outline way "buildong=terrace" and 
"name=" and all the houses with "building:part=house". The 
software can then tell that all those houses are part of the terrace called 

-- 
  

20 Dec 2020, 17:30 by colin.sm...@xs4all.nl:

>
> On 2020-12-20 18:21, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:
>
>
>> Tag the houses with addr:place maybe?
>>  
>>
> IMHO a house is not a place
>  
>
>> Or, better method is to use the alternative terrace taggong scheme where 
>> each house is tagged as building:part=house within a larger 
>> building=terrace.  (Terracer plugin lets you do this if you check "keep 
>> outline way")
>>  
>>
>  
> That allows the building to be split into parts, but does it tell us how to 
> put a distinct address on each part?
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

On 2020-12-20 18:21, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:

> Tag the houses with addr:place maybe?

IMHO a house is not a place 

> Or, better method is to use the alternative terrace taggong scheme where each 
> house is tagged as building:part=house within a larger building=terrace.  
> (Terracer plugin lets you do this if you check "keep outline way")

That allows the building to be split into parts, but does it tell us how
to put a distinct address on each part?___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

Tag the houses with addr:place maybe?

Or, better method is to use the alternative terrace taggong scheme where each 
house is tagged as building:part=house within a larger building=terrace.  
(Terracer plugin lets you do this if you check "keep outline way")

IpswichMapper-- 
 


20 Dec 2020, 15:50 by aamac...@gmail.com:

> I'm also unclear how to tag numbered houses in named terraces. 
>
> addr:housename doesn't seem appropriate if they are shared along an entire 
> row and addr:street already has a value.
>
> I've also run into this for blocks of flats. "Block B" doesn't seem like a 
> housename either? The addr:block tags seems to be for named city blocks.
>
> Do we have some sort of local grouping tag?
>
> On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 10:32, ndrw <> nd...@redhazel.co.uk> > wrote:
>
>> On 20/12/2020 12:45, Dave Abbott wrote:
>>  > There is a page at 
>>  > >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping>>  
>>  > which mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is 
>>  > in use. If correct I would be tagging as -
>>  >
>>  > addr:housenumber=99
>>  > addr:street=Postal Street
>>  > addr:town=Smalltown
>>  > addr:city=Largertown
>>  >
>>  This is correct, although there is no consensus wrt to the tag used for 
>>  Smalltown. I'm using one of addr:villlage|suburb|town myself. There was 
>>  a proposal to switch to addr:locality only, which I argued against in 
>>  the past, but it would indeed match RM addressing better and often 
>>  classification of the locality is unclear.
>>  
>>  This is not the only problem with RM<->OSM address tagging. RM defines 
>>  following address structure:
>>  
>>  Dependent thoroughfare
>>          addr:place (?)
>>  Thoroughfare
>>          addr:street
>>  Double dependent locality
>>          addr:hamlet|district (?)
>>  Dependent locality
>>          addr:town|village|suburb|locality (?)
>>  Post Town
>>          addr:city
>>  Postcode
>>          addr:postcode
>>  
>>  
>>  This often becomes an issue when mapping business parks, 
>>  hospital/university campuses etc.
>>  
>>  ndrw6
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  ___
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>>

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

On 2020-12-20 17:16, Chris Hill wrote:

> On 20/12/2020 14:57, Colin Smale wrote: 
> 
> On 2020-12-20 15:41, Chris Hill wrote: 
> Addresses in OSM are not the same as Royal Mail's addresses. RM addresses are 
> all about their processes for delivering post to delivery points. The postal 
> town (Largertown in your example) is a convenience for RM that we have all 
> been persuaded is useful, but RM have ceased to use postal towns for many 
> years! 
> Are you not thinking of Postal Counties? They were indeed deprecated many 
> years ago (1996), but the Post Town is AFAIK a mandatory component of a 
> postal address, and Wikipedia agrees: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_town

No, Counties are still useful. The only reason RM no longer uses
counties is that they depend on postcodes and street addresses to
deliver. We are not confined to delivering using RM's infrastructure.
Near to York there is a village called Dunnington, near to Hull there is
another small village called Dunnington. Without postcodes the county is
vital to reach the right place. 

What does Royal Mail say in their Postcode lookup tool? They use the
Post Town to distinguish the two (and no sign of the county in either
case):

Flat A 
Cherry Tree Court 
Dunnington 
YORK 
YO19 5QU 

Pear Tree Farm 
Dunnington 
DRIFFIELD 
YO25 8EG 

> Long after RM say they no longer used counties, their PAF list, used across 
> Britain to find addresses in the absence of a proper, Open address 
> database,still has counties in it. People still quote my address as being in 
> North Humberside. North Humberside never existed, Humberside was abolished in 
> 1996! SO it is with postal towns, RM no longer use them but they still appear 
> in their PAF and so get perpetuated in general use, even though they are 
> useless and misleading. 
> 
> Royal mail do not use postal towns and neither should OSM.___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

On 2020-12-20 17:09, Chris Hill wrote:

> On 20/12/2020 15:30, ndrw wrote: On 20/12/2020 12:45, Dave Abbott wrote: 
> There is a page at 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping which 
> mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is in use. If 
> correct I would be tagging as -
> 
> addr:housenumber=99
> addr:street=Postal Street
> addr:town=Smalltown
> addr:city=Largertown
> 
> This is correct, although there is no consensus wrt to the tag used for 
> Smalltown. I'm using one of addr:villlage|suburb|town myself. There was a 
> proposal to switch to addr:locality only, which I argued against in the past, 
> but it would indeed match RM addressing better and often classification of 
> the locality is unclear.

Using the two separate towns is not correct. The house (or whatever) is
not in Largertown,it is in Smalltown.

Postal towns are in invention of Royal Mail. Correct addressing of any
location are set by Local Authorities, not Royal Mail. There are no
postal towns in LA addresses.

In the original example the 'Smalltown' (or indeed village or even
hamlet) translates into addr:city in OSM. I know this may look confusing
as a small villiage is not a city, but that is, IMHO, the correct way
tobuild an OSM UK address.

Adding postal towns is not only redundant, but is misleading. It looks
as though the way to find Smalltown would be first to go to Largertown,
when that is very rarely the case. OSM addresses are hierarchical, RM
addressing is not as postal town is usually a separate place. 

That depends on your paradigm. If the address is the "postal address",
then we should follow (or map to) RM addressing. If the address is "for
navigation purposes" we would need a different model. Many countries
(not the UK) use addresses as (partial) identifiers, and that paradigm
has yet another set of requirements. 

Sometimes the Post Town is not even in the same country - addresses in
Tutshill, Gloucestershire have Chepstow as their Post Town. If that is
not tagged explicitly, what algorithm is going to infer that correctly? 

Are you advocating removing all address elements superior to street, and
forcing users to look up the other elements in PAF? What would otherwise
be the use case for having city/town etc in an address in OSM?___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-20 Thread Chris Hill



On 20/12/2020 14:57, Colin Smale wrote:


On 2020-12-20 15:41, Chris Hill wrote:

Addresses in OSM are not the same as Royal Mail's addresses. RM 
addresses are all about their processes for delivering post to 
delivery points. The postal town (Largertown in your example) is a 
convenience for RM that we have all been persuaded is useful, but RM 
have ceased to use postal towns for many years!
Are you not thinking of Postal Counties? They were indeed deprecated 
many years ago (1996), but the Post Town is AFAIK a mandatory 
component of a postal address, and Wikipedia agrees: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_town 



No, Counties are still useful. The only reason RM no longer uses 
counties is that they depend on postcodes and street addresses to 
deliver. We are not confined to delivering using RM's infrastructure. 
Near to York there is a village called Dunnington, near to Hull there is 
another small village called Dunnington. Without postcodes the county is 
vital to reach the right place.


Long after RM say they no longer used counties, their PAF list, used 
across Britain to find addresses in the absence of a proper, Open 
address database,still has counties in it. People still quote my address 
as being in North Humberside. North Humberside never existed, Humberside 
was abolished in 1996! SO it is with postal towns, RM no longer use them 
but they still appear in their PAF and so get perpetuated in general 
use, even though they are useless and misleading.


Royal mail do not use postal towns and neither should OSM.


--


cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-20 Thread Chris Hill



On 20/12/2020 15:30, ndrw wrote:

On 20/12/2020 12:45, Dave Abbott wrote:
There is a page at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping 
which mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is 
in use. If correct I would be tagging as -


addr:housenumber=99
addr:street=Postal Street
addr:town=Smalltown
addr:city=Largertown

This is correct, although there is no consensus wrt to the tag used 
for Smalltown. I'm using one of addr:villlage|suburb|town myself. 
There was a proposal to switch to addr:locality only, which I argued 
against in the past, but it would indeed match RM addressing better 
and often classification of the locality is unclear.


Using the two separate towns is not correct. The house (or whatever) is 
not in Largertown,it is in Smalltown.


Postal towns are in invention of Royal Mail. Correct addressing of any 
location are set by Local Authorities, not Royal Mail. There are no 
postal towns in LA addresses.


In the original example the 'Smalltown' (or indeed village or even 
hamlet) translates into addr:city in OSM. I know this may look confusing 
as a small villiage is not a city, but that is, IMHO, the correct way 
tobuild an OSM UK address.


Adding postal towns is not only redundant, but is misleading. It looks 
as though the way to find Smalltown would be first to go to Largertown, 
when that is very rarely the case. OSM addresses are hierarchical, RM 
addressing is not as postal town is usually a separate place.


I should have added that postcodes are a useful addition and my postcode 
overlays can help to workout what the correct postcode is for a given 
building. You can see more at https://codepoint.raggedred.net/





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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

On 2020-12-20 16:30, ndrw wrote:

> On 20/12/2020 12:45, Dave Abbott wrote: 
> 
>> There is a page at 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping which 
>> mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is in use. If 
>> correct I would be tagging as -
>> 
>> addr:housenumber=99
>> addr:street=Postal Street
>> addr:town=Smalltown
>> addr:city=Largertown
> This is correct, although there is no consensus wrt to the tag used for 
> Smalltown. I'm using one of addr:villlage|suburb|town myself. There was a 
> proposal to switch to addr:locality only, which I argued against in the past, 
> but it would indeed match RM addressing better and often classification of 
> the locality is unclear.
> 
> This is not the only problem with RM<->OSM address tagging. RM defines 
> following address structure:
> 
> Dependent thoroughfare
> addr:place (?)

This is unlikely to be a good match. An example of a Dependent
Thoroughfare would be "2, Orchard Cottages, Green Lane" where "Orchard
Cottages" is the Dependent Thoroughfare. 

> Thoroughfare
> addr:street
> Double dependent locality
> addr:hamlet|district (?)
> Dependent locality
> addr:town|village|suburb|locality (?)
> Post Town
> addr:city
> Postcode
> addr:postcode
> 
> This often becomes an issue when mapping business parks, hospital/university 
> campuses etc.
> 
> ndrw6
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-20 Thread Alan Mackie

I'm also unclear how to tag numbered houses in named terraces.

addr:housename doesn't seem appropriate if they are shared along an entire
row and addr:street already has a value.

I've also run into this for blocks of flats. "Block B" doesn't seem like a
housename either? The addr:block tags seems to be for named city blocks.

Do we have some sort of local grouping tag?

On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 10:32, ndrw  wrote:

> On 20/12/2020 12:45, Dave Abbott wrote:
> > There is a page at
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping
> > which mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is
> > in use. If correct I would be tagging as -
> >
> > addr:housenumber=99
> > addr:street=Postal Street
> > addr:town=Smalltown
> > addr:city=Largertown
> >
> This is correct, although there is no consensus wrt to the tag used for
> Smalltown. I'm using one of addr:villlage|suburb|town myself. There was
> a proposal to switch to addr:locality only, which I argued against in
> the past, but it would indeed match RM addressing better and often
> classification of the locality is unclear.
>
> This is not the only problem with RM<->OSM address tagging. RM defines
> following address structure:
>
> Dependent thoroughfare
> addr:place (?)
> Thoroughfare
> addr:street
> Double dependent locality
> addr:hamlet|district (?)
> Dependent locality
> addr:town|village|suburb|locality (?)
> Post Town
> addr:city
> Postcode
> addr:postcode
>
>
> This often becomes an issue when mapping business parks,
> hospital/university campuses etc.
>
> ndrw6
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-20 Thread ndrw


On 20/12/2020 12:45, Dave Abbott wrote:
There is a page at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping 
which mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is 
in use. If correct I would be tagging as -


addr:housenumber=99
addr:street=Postal Street
addr:town=Smalltown
addr:city=Largertown

This is correct, although there is no consensus wrt to the tag used for 
Smalltown. I'm using one of addr:villlage|suburb|town myself. There was 
a proposal to switch to addr:locality only, which I argued against in 
the past, but it would indeed match RM addressing better and often 
classification of the locality is unclear.


This is not the only problem with RM<->OSM address tagging. RM defines 
following address structure:


Dependent thoroughfare
addr:place (?)
Thoroughfare
addr:street
Double dependent locality
addr:hamlet|district (?)
Dependent locality
addr:town|village|suburb|locality (?)
Post Town
addr:city
Postcode
addr:postcode


This often becomes an issue when mapping business parks, 
hospital/university campuses etc.


ndrw6



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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-20 Thread Peter Neale via Talk-GB

Postal Town may be "mandatory", but it is not really needed.
When presenting a parcel at my local post office recently, to be sent by the 
"signed for" service, they wanted to have the senders address on the reverse, 
so that it could be used as a return address, in the event of non-delivery.
All I had to (hurriedly) write was the Housenumber and Postcode (no 
PostalStreet, no PostalDistrict, no PostalTown)
Regards,Peter


On Sunday, 20 December 2020, 15:00:31 GMT, Colin Smale 
 wrote:  
 
 
On 2020-12-20 15:41, Chris Hill wrote:

Addresses in OSM are not the same as Royal Mail's addresses. RM addresses are 
all about their processes for delivering post to delivery points. The postal 
town (Largertown in your example) is a convenience for RM that we have all been 
persuaded is useful, but RM have ceased to use postal towns for many years! 
Are you not thinking of Postal Counties? They were indeed deprecated many years 
ago (1996), but the Post Town is AFAIK a mandatory component of a postal 
address, and Wikipedia agrees: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_town 
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

On 2020-12-20 15:41, Chris Hill wrote:

> Addresses in OSM are not the same as Royal Mail's addresses. RM addresses are 
> all about their processes for delivering post to delivery points. The postal 
> town (Largertown in your example) is a convenience for RM that we have all 
> been persuaded is useful, but RM have ceased to use postal towns for many 
> years!

Are you not thinking of Postal Counties? They were indeed deprecated
many years ago (1996), but the Post Town is AFAIK a mandatory component
of a postal address, and Wikipedia agrees:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_town___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

2020-12-20 Thread Chris Hill

Addresses in OSM are not the same as Royal Mail's addresses. RM 
addresses are all about their processes for delivering post to delivery 
points. The postal town (Largertown in your example) is a convenience 
for RM that we have all been persuaded is useful, but RM have ceased to 
use postal towns for many years!


I live in a village called Swanland, nearby is a similarly sized village 
called North Ferriby. There RM owned a building big enough to use as a 
post office and have a small sorting office behind it, so it was adopted 
as the postal town for a few villages. The sorting office closed about 
twenty years ago and sorting was moved to the town of Hessle then, yet 
still the postal town for Swanland remains North Ferriby.


Royal Mail don't use postal towns at all now, they use street address 
and postcode.


We should not put postal town into OSM addresses at all. They are a 
fiction invented by RM for their processes which they no longer use and 
they offer no benefit to OSM, indeed they simply add confusion to anyone 
seeing a postal town in an address.


To use your example I would tag the address as:

addr:housenumber=99
addr:street=Postal Street
addr:city=Smalltown

--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

On 20/12/2020 12:45, Dave Abbott wrote:

Hi,

I am trying to make sure I tag addresses correctly. I am currently 
trying to understand how to map in my area.


The postal addresses are like:

99 Postal Street
Smalltown
Largertown
West Yorks XY9 7GY

Smalltown is geographically separate to Largertown, which however is 
the Postal Town. Omitting Smalltown from the address is probably 
correct postally-speaking, but local residents would object as 
Smalltown is seen as completely separate to other places under the 
same Postal Town.


Currently tagging as -
addr:housenumber=99
addr:street=Postal Street
addr:city=Smalltown, Largertown

But I am pretty sure this is wrong.

There is a page at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping 
which mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is 
in use. If correct I would be tagging as -


addr:housenumber=99
addr:street=Postal Street
addr:town=Smalltown
addr:city=Largertown

Hoping someone can advise me as to the correct way to tag for the UK...




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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

On 2020-12-20 14:39, ipswichmap...@tutanota.com wrote:

> It's not just administrative boundaries. If you mark points with 
> "place=suburb", "place=town" etc. that will also be used. 
> 
> In this case it is clearly difficult to tell which tags to use, so I would 
> just not use them and let nominatim figure out. Unless someone else a clearer 
> solution, that is.

First of all - are you sure that an address in OSM (addr:* tags) is
intended to represent a postal address, and not something else like a
location? 

If it IS supposed to be a postal address, then its data model needs to
be suitable, which in the UK means it can somehow accommodate all the
fields that can occur in a valid postal address. Fill your boots here:
https://ideal-postcodes.co.uk/documentation/paf-data 

Nominatim is known to produce bad output for UK addresses (at least, on
the OSM website), because it is based around compromises and assumptions
that fits some countries better than others. It ignores some useful
polygons, "invents" towns by proximity and gets the priority wrong
(place=village is higher than admin_level=10) It includes
districts/boroughs and administrative counties, none of which are
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

It's not just administrative boundaries. If you mark points with 
"place=suburb", "place=town" etc. that will also be used.

In this case it is clearly difficult to tell which tags to use, so I would just 
not use them and let nominatim figure out. Unless someone else a clearer 
solution, that is.

IpswichMapper

-- 
 

20 Dec 2020, 13:29 by colin.sm...@xs4all.nl:

>
> On 2020-12-20 14:13, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:
>
>
>> Marking city, town etc is not necessary in UK because Geocoders like 
>> nominatim can figure those out using afministrative boundaries.
>>  
>>
> Postal addresses have no relation to administrative boundaries. They are 
> simply "what you need to put on an envelope so Royal Mail can put it through 
> the right letter box".
>  
> Boundaries of "post town" areas are not in OSM, nor can they be considered 
> "administrative". Post Towns, Dependent Localities and Double-Dependent 
> Localities are not mapped (nor mappable) to Districts etc or Civil Parishes.
>  
>  
>
>>  
>> What is important is the housenumber and street:
>> "addr:housenumber=99
>> addr:street= Postal Street"
>>  
>> And postcode:
>> "addr:postcode=XY9 7GY"
>>  
>> Note, all postcodes are available freely:
>>  
>> https://raggedred.net/codepoint/
>>  
>> IpswichMapper
>> --
>>  
>>  
>> 20 Dec 2020, 12:45 by dave.abb...@pandaemonia.org:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>  
>>> I am trying to make sure I tag addresses correctly. I am currently trying 
>>> to understand how to map in my area.
>>>  
>>> The postal addresses are like:
>>>  
>>> 99 Postal Street
>>> Smalltown
>>> Largertown
>>> West Yorks XY9 7GY
>>>  
>>> Smalltown is geographically separate to Largertown, which however is the 
>>> Postal Town. Omitting Smalltown from the address is probably correct 
>>> postally-speaking, but local residents would object as Smalltown is seen as 
>>> completely separate to other places under the same Postal Town.
>>>  
>>> Currently tagging as -
>>> addr:housenumber=99
>>> addr:street=Postal Street
>>> addr:city=Smalltown, Largertown
>>>  
>>> But I am pretty sure this is wrong.
>>>  
>>> There is a page at 
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping which 
>>> mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is in use. If 
>>> correct I would be tagging as -
>>>  
>>> addr:housenumber=99
>>> addr:street=Postal Street
>>> addr:town=Smalltown
>>> addr:city=Largertown
>>>  
>>> Hoping someone can advise me as to the correct way to tag for the UK...
>>>  
>>> Dave Abbott (OSM user DaveyPorcy)
>>>
>>  
>>
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>>

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

On 2020-12-20 14:13, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:

> Marking city, town etc is not necessary in UK because Geocoders like 
> nominatim can figure those out using afministrative boundaries.

Postal addresses have no relation to administrative boundaries. They are
simply "what you need to put on an envelope so Royal Mail can put it
through the right letter box". 

Boundaries of "post town" areas are not in OSM, nor can they be
considered "administrative". Post Towns, Dependent Localities and
Double-Dependent Localities are not mapped (nor mappable) to Districts
etc or Civil Parishes. 

> What is important is the housenumber and street: 
> "addr:housenumber=99 
> addr:street= Postal Street" 
> 
> And postcode: 
> "addr:postcode=XY9 7GY" 
> 
> Note, all postcodes are available freely: 
> 
> https://raggedred.net/codepoint/ 
> 
> IpswichMapper 
> -- 
> 
> 20 Dec 2020, 12:45 by dave.abb...@pandaemonia.org: 
> 
>> Hi, 
>> 
>> I am trying to make sure I tag addresses correctly. I am currently trying to 
>> understand how to map in my area. 
>> 
>> The postal addresses are like: 
>> 
>> 99 Postal Street 
>> Smalltown 
>> Largertown 
>> West Yorks XY9 7GY 
>> 
>> Smalltown is geographically separate to Largertown, which however is the 
>> Postal Town. Omitting Smalltown from the address is probably correct 
>> postally-speaking, but local residents would object as Smalltown is seen as 
>> completely separate to other places under the same Postal Town. 
>> 
>> Currently tagging as - 
>> addr:housenumber=99 
>> addr:street=Postal Street 
>> addr:city=Smalltown, Largertown 
>> 
>> But I am pretty sure this is wrong. 
>> 
>> There is a page at 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping which 
>> mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is in use. If 
>> correct I would be tagging as - 
>> 
>> addr:housenumber=99 
>> addr:street=Postal Street 
>> addr:town=Smalltown 
>> addr:city=Largertown 
>> 
>> Hoping someone can advise me as to the correct way to tag for the UK... 
>> 
>> Dave Abbott (OSM user DaveyPorcy)
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing