Re: [Talk-transit] Old Railways

[Mike N]

Tim,
  This is a good point, but what if OpenRailwayMap were able to pull 
from OpenHistoricalMap to generate a complete picture of the network? 
I say 'picture' because it wouldn't be connected for routing purposes, 
but it should appear connected on a map tile.   I have no idea how much 
additional work that would be for OpenRailwayMap to show.


On 5/18/2019 11:40 AM, Tim Saunders wrote:
I suspect I am a lone voice but I don't agree.� The thing that 
differentiates railways from a lot of historical features is they form a 
network, some if which is still an operating railway and a lot of which 
is still visible in the ground.� Having the extant sections in one 
database and the razed/dismantled sections in another is just making it 
unnecessarily complex to form a picture of the entire network, which for 
the sake of a few additional ways on OSM (which I agree would not 
generally be rendered) can be easily solved.


Regards,

Tim Saunders



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Re: [Talk-transit] Old railways

[Mike N]

On 5/12/2019 1:45 PM, Tijmen Stam wrote:
Btw, do you know of a way to copy data from one layer in JOSM to 
another, while keeping it at the exact same position?


Edit / Paste at Source Position (CTRL+ALT+V).

I still wish it was easier to migrate objects to Open Historical Map.

 While I also don't think that Razed railways without a trace no longer 
belong in OSM, there's a bit of tradition that allowed them here.  Since 
they don't render on the default OSM site, I leave the old tracks for now.


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Re: [Talk-transit] Public Transport Timetables

[Mike N]

On 11/8/2018 5:12 PM, john whelan wrote:


The GTFS bus stop data is of varying quality.  Locally we have an 
automated system that calls out the bus stop names and generally the 
position in the GTFS file is accurate to within a meter.


Some other transit systems are not as accurate, and the GTFS location 
for a bus stop can be more than 100 meters out.


  The result of publishing OSM's information + timetables in GTFS 
format could be a better GTFS than the official GTFS.  But if the 
OSM-GTFS feed is not updated for whatever reason, then eventually it 
just becomes stale data.   OSM-GTFS consumers would need to be aware of 
that possibility.


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Re: [Talk-transit] Public Transport Timetables

[Mike N]

On 11/8/2018 12:06 PM, Leif Rasmussen wrote:


I think that creating a new GTFS server would be better than using 
transit land or transitfeeds.com , because OSM 
would have full control over what happened to the servers and which 
licencing was used.


Does anyone with experience in GTFS know how an integration like that 
could work?  Also, is what I am imagining even possible?



  I would tend to think that using the GTFS standard would be the best 
approach.  The only "duplication of effort" is that there is an 
optional? inclusion of the route geometries in the GTFS feed.


  In the one case I am familiar with - OpenTripPlanner, the local 
network build process could always download the GTFS from any source as 
part of the build process.   The only advantage I see for adding another 
feed source is to add the capability of publishing a GTFS from other 
than an official source.  This allows a public GTFS feed for a city 
which is otherwise too small to maintain an electronic schedule.



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Re: [Talk-transit] GTFS, tools and pt tags generally

[Mike N]

On 6/20/2016 5:18 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:

I really wonder how TriMet ultimately accomplished this, since that
would seem like a decent-ish starting point since that system is in
charge of a fairly multimodal system with above and below ground
stations, split-level stations, and transit centers of almost every
description.


  I don't know for sure, but I think TriMet's system uses GTFS as a 
primary transit planning reference in OpenTripPlanner, and OSM data is 
maintained to facilitate public transit connection to  Pedestrian / Bike 
/ Car.A quick glance at OSM's public transit layer in Portland shows 
that lots of bus routes have been entered into OSM, but I don't know if 
they have any function other than "there is a bus route or stop here".



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Re: [Talk-transit] GTFS and the like

[Mike N]

On 4/2/2014 12:29 PM, Florian Lohoff wrote:

What file format is the defakto standard. Is GTFS the solution
and one day all data consumers for public transport will use GTFS?


  GTFS is the most popular standard, and nearly a universal way to 
represent public transport route and timetable information.  Using GTFS, 
a consumer can get a customized answer to how do I get from my location 
to X?.



I think currently the whish for locals is to simply take the data
and have some nice clickable map with timetables and all those
bells and whistles. I havent seen that approach yet so i ask.


  One good solution that is able to mix OSM street data with GTFS for a 
combined travel solution is Open Trip Planner http://opentripplanner.com/ .



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Re: [Talk-transit] Stop according to new PT scheme not rendered?

[Mike N]

On 12/11/2013 11:07 AM, fly wrote:

If you keep on adding both schemes simultaneously you will not notice
the problem and there will be no reason for developers to adjust the
software.


 One of the problems in this situation is the map rendering developers 
have not taken an interest in the new scheme.


  If someone has submitted a 'pull request' that included the new 
tagging scheme but it was ignored, that is a different story.  OSM is 
frequently described as a do-ocracy - in which finished and coded 
solutions win out over what is needed.  And it's quite possible that we 
public transport mappers have been collecting and entering the 
information but have never gotten into CSS Map stylesheets, or whatever 
is the technology behind the renderers.



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Re: [Talk-transit] Stop according to new PT scheme not rendered?

[Mike N]

On 12/9/2013 6:52 AM, Gilles Baumgartner wrote:


Is it ok to *add* the legacy tag
highway https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway=bus_stop
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbus_stop
to be at the same time compliant with the new tags but still make the
renderer show the bus stop?


  I would recommend adding the legacy tag.   This is because the public 
transport tagging scheme is in a long transition period.  Eventually the 
map rendering rules will be modified to include the new scheme.



*2. Combined stops, e.g. tram and bus*


 I'm not familiar with this problem; hopefully someone else will have a 
recommendation.



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Re: [Talk-transit] maintenance is very time consuming on public transport routes

[Mike N]

On 12/3/2013 6:34 PM, Jo wrote:

Would it be useful to add all the starting times/ending times as well
for a given route? This can be different depending on
weekdays/Saturdays/Sundays/weekdays during short school
holidays/weekdays during long school holidays. How would we indicate
that difference?

It's probably not wise to add it, it changes even more often than the
routes themselves.


 It will be very awkward and tag-heavy to add time information to the 
OSM data.  It's possible to add some data as listed above, but - in 
addition to the variations above:
  What about route schedule timing points?  (Where the bus leaves at a 
targeted time, waiting if necessary).   Technically, each of those 
points must be updated according to the schedule above.


  In my tiny area without GTFS, I created the 13 routes in OSM, then 
created GTFS data with an external tool to add time schedules.  The tool 
was not ideal, but the GTFS and OSM routes matched exactly.  There may 
be better tools available now  (For example, I haven't looked at the 
GTFS editor at https://github.com/openplans/gtfs-editor )




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Re: [Talk-transit] maintenance is very time consuming on public transport routes

[Mike N]

On 12/1/2013 5:32 PM, Jo wrote:

Hmm, I was thinking of staying more or less within the lines of what we
have now, but take away the burden of 10, 20, 70 relations on the same
piece of road.


 I'm just curious - what type of data consumer could use information 
from OSM which contains 70 routes in a road segment?  It would seem to 
be too many to fit on a map display, but I suppose a device would be 
able to highlight a single route variation on demand.



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[Talk-transit] FYI - Creating GTFS data from OSM data

[Mike N]

This project falls in the Why would anybody want to do that? [1] 
category.

  - The OSM bus route paths and stops have all been surveyed in my area.
  - There is no GTFS feed, and the transit provider isn't planning one 
soon (no budget).
 - I wanted to apply the data to OpenTripPlanner for bicycle and 
transit routing.


  There are some free GTFS editors, some paid products, but none that 
start with maximum use of OSM data as a base to create an initial GTFS feed.


  I had toyed briefly with teaching the local transit provider how to 
maintain routes and stops in OSM, but a few passes at editing route 
relations quickly cured me of that idea - public transport route 
relation edits are way too complicated for most people.


  So I wrote a tool to read the OSM data, allow entry of the schedules, 
then it would create a GTFS dataset.   Future GTFS edits would be made 
by the transit provider with industry standard tools.


  The tool is written in C# / .NET - Winforms.  It is in alpha stage 
(Worked great for me), but it's a little rough around the edges, and 
probably would require running in the debugger to adapt for another 
public transit system or to determine if a problem is caused by the OSM 
data or a program bug.


  Let me know off list if you're interested in looking at the program. 
 After 1 or 2 people test it, I'll just check it into SVN.


-

1: 
http://www.ypass.net/blog/2009/06/an-app-to-manage-busrail-routes-in-gtfs-format-that-no-one-wanted/


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Re: [Talk-transit] Using route part relations in Route relations

[Mike N]

On 7/24/2012 6:38 AM, Jo wrote:

It would be a lot easier if it were possible to create route part
relations, for example from one stop to the next and then be able to use
these relations in the actual route relations. This would enable to map
deviations for longer lasting road works as well.


  There already exists relation type=route,route=bus. 
type=route_master then includes members of this relation.   Does this 
address your issue?


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:route_master


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Re: [Talk-transit] Using route part relations in Route relations

[Mike N]

On 7/24/2012 10:32 AM, Jo wrote:

Well, to be honest, I had hoped that everybody who is doing PT would
have been screaming for this by now.  It's a message on talk-fr by
somebody who wants to start doing this for cycle route relations that
triggered me into proposing it yet again. I have proposed it already
when the PT scheme was introduced, but they didn't want to include it
back then, as they feared it might be hard enough already to get it
passed, without it.

Of course it's an extra layer in the hierarchy, but it would be a lot
more logical than the way it's done now. As far as adding complexity
goes, it would actually reduce the number of relations a particular way
would be part of.

Somebody told me they got a bit scared after seeing this video:


  I see what you're referring to now.

  At one time I had fantasies of turning my OSM routes + a GTFS tool 
that works with OSM data over to the local transit authority to use with 
OpenTripPlanner.   However when I performed the steps to modify a route 
by adding a loop in the center, I was quickly corrected.


  While they'll be able to use OpenTripPlanner, their future work will 
be with some general GTFS management tool, not OSM.




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Re: [Talk-transit] Mapping public transport network in Port au Prince

[Mike N]

On 9/1/2011 10:02 AM, Peter Miller wrote:

My understanding is that these services vary from 'fixed route-variable
times' through to completely random routes. Another question is if the
services stop anywhere on the route or only at fixed points or possibly
there are some fixed points and then anywhere on the route in addition.


  I have already run into a local fixed route, pick up at any 
intersection on the route bus, as well as a fixed route, variable 
time, pick up at stop points bus.


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[Talk-transit] GTFS from OSM data?

[Mike N]

I have looked at Go-Sync (Great tool!) and have some questions about 
public transport and GTFS.   I am starting from perhaps the reverse of 
normal case: any agency data on routes and stops was way out of date and 
very incomplete.   The system is small and well within the scope of 
being surveyed from scratch and entered into OSM. It appears that 
Go-Sync is focused on stop synchronization, given the routes in 
routes.txt+trips.txt+shapes.txt .


  1.  Are there any tools to create routes.txt + trips.txt + shapes.txt 
from OSM public transport route relations?   If not, would such a tool 
be within the scope to add to Go-Sync, or should this just be a separate 
tool?


  2.  For bus routes, is there any value to adding 
public_transport=stop_position to the OSM data, in addition to 
highway=bus_stop?


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