Re: [Talk-us] Update on remapping
FYI guys, the server is now back up and accepting edits. As for my TN I-81 rebuild, I got to just shy of Exit #50. I think that was pretty good over the last few days doing it in my spare time. So, I'm uploading what I have done and will continue on it from there. At least with being online when the server came out of read-only mode, I didn't have to worry about any conflicts with this rebuild of TN I-81. :) -- James ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Richard Weait rich...@weait.com [2012-04-04 01:09 -0400]: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:33 AM, Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com wrote: * Chris Lawrence lordsu...@gmail.com [2012-04-03 10:21 -0400]: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=37.13887lon=-80.34525layers=B0 http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=37.19653lon=-80.22878layers=B0 Try those URLs again Wow. Vertical pairs. Looks nice, and switches back to horizontal as the line orientation changes. :-) I stayed up way too late last night. Try visiting those URLs again. (Once again, most of the map will rerender after you've looked at it so the way to see the changes in different areas is to look at them once then come back as much as a half hour later.) Other places that I know are rerendered include these: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=37.27562lon=-79.93635layers=B0 http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=13lat=40.12983lon=-74.71446layers=B0 -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- ps axh -o%p | xargs perl -e '`kill -9 $ARGV[rand @ARGV]`' --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com wrote: I stayed up way too late last night. Try visiting those URLs again. (Once again, most of the map will rerender after you've looked at it so the way to see the changes in different areas is to look at them once then come back as much as a half hour later.) Other places that I know are rerendered include these: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=37.27562lon=-79.93635layers=B0 http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=13lat=40.12983lon=-74.71446layers=B0 Amazing, this looks fantastic! Can't wait to see this as the official map of OSM US. Is this something that could be used in a Carto stylesheet, or does it use special syntax only supported by XML? I know it's not really relevant to this thread, but since you have a separate stylesheet from the standard OSM one, maybe you could reduce the prominence of standard highway labels on residential/unclassified highways: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=15lat=38.78332lon=-77.30564layers=B0 https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4183 -Josh ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/2/2012 11:35 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: For things like Florida's toll roads, we currently treat that as a separate network, so a route relation tagged as network=US:FL:Toll, ref=528 would get the toll shield. I've done this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/11177509 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-04 10:41 -0400]: On 4/2/2012 11:35 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: For things like Florida's toll roads, we currently treat that as a separate network, so a route relation tagged as network=US:FL:Toll, ref=528 would get the toll shield. I've done this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/11177509 The server's a bit overloaded at the moment, so already-rendered tiles might take a while to rerender and show the shields, but new renderings of not-yet-present tiles are given priority, so I was able to get some fresh tiles at zoom 15: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=15lat=28.4117lon=-80.82026layers=B0 -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- He won't be able to summon a demon THAT quick... -- Famous Last Words, #879 --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/4/2012 11:49 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: * Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-04 10:41 -0400]: On 4/2/2012 11:35 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: For things like Florida's toll roads, we currently treat that as a separate network, so a route relation tagged as network=US:FL:Toll, ref=528 would get the toll shield. I've done this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/11177509 The server's a bit overloaded at the moment, so already-rendered tiles might take a while to rerender and show the shields, but new renderings of not-yet-present tiles are given priority, so I was able to get some fresh tiles at zoom 15: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=15lat=28.4117lon=-80.82026layers=B0 Just noticed it in the Orlando area. Cheers. (By the way, if it wasn't clear, you've done some good work here.) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com [2012-04-04 08:55 -0400]:
Is this something that could be used in a Carto stylesheet, or does it
use special syntax only supported by XML?
I'm not sure, because I don't really know Carto. Most of the magic comes
from two places: first, there are PostgreSQL functions that take a way ID
and return a string that gives the path to the shield for that way;
second, there's the path expression syntax added to Mapnik2 that lets you
use database fields in image filenames. If you can represent both of
those in Carto, you don't need to touch an XML stylesheet.
Just for reference, here's a relevant extract from the XML we're using:
Style name=roads-text-ref
Rule
Filter[highway] = 'motorway' and [route_shield] lt;gt;
''/Filter
maxscale_zoom13;
minscale_zoom18;
ShieldSymbolizer file=shields;/[route_shield].png
minimum-distance=30 no-text=true placement=line spacing=640
fontset-name=book-fonts size=10 fill=whitenull/ShieldSymbolizer
/Rule
!-- ... --
/Style
Layer name=roads-text-ref status=on srs=osm2pgsql_projection;
StyleNameroads-text-ref/StyleName
Datasource
Parameter name=table
(SELECT way, highway, aeroway, ref, char_length(ref) as length,
CASE WHEN bridge IN ('yes','true','1') THEN 'yes'::text
ELSE bridge END AS bridge,
route_shield(osm_id) route_shield
FROM prefix;_line
WHERE (highway IS NOT NULL OR aeroway IS NOT NULL)
AND ((ref IS NOT NULL AND char_length(ref) BETWEEN 1 AND
8) OR
route_refs(osm_id) IS NOT NULL)
) AS roads
/Parameter
datasource-settings;
/Datasource
/Layer
I know it's not really relevant to this thread, but since you have a
separate stylesheet from the standard OSM one, maybe you could reduce
the prominence of standard highway labels on residential/unclassified
highways:
http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=15lat=38.78332lon=-77.30564layers=B0
https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4183
Ooof. I'm trying to limit the stylesheet changes to just what's needed to
put our shields on properly, but I can probably tweak the font settings on
those a little. They do kind of need it.
--
...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/
PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2
--- --
Like the ski resort full of girls hunting for husbands and husbands
hunting for girls, the situation is not as symmetrical as it might seem.
-- Alan MacKay
--- --
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Re: [Talk-us] Network tag Re: Highway Shield Rendering
Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com: It seems that many people see the network tag as not representing a network but a shield design. Does this sound accurate? No, because, where shield designs differ by agency for the same logical network classification, the network tag does not change, despite the differing shields. One of many examples: Maryland uses a unique green-on-white shield for US Business routes, but those roads still get tagged as network=US:US:Business, not network=US:US:Business:MD or somesuch. The renderer would have to detect which agency the road is in, and render the agency-specific shield accordingly. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Network tag Re: Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/4/2012 12:14 PM, Craig Hinners wrote: Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com: It seems that many people see the network tag as not representing a network but a shield design. Does this sound accurate? No, because, where shield designs differ by agency for the same logical network classification, the network tag does not change, despite the differing shields. One of many examples: Maryland uses a unique green-on-white shield for US Business routes, but those roads still get tagged as network=US:US:Business, not network=US:US:Business:MD or somesuch. The renderer would have to detect which agency the road is in, and render the agency-specific shield accordingly. So your belief is that there is such a thing as a U.S. Highway Business network, despite AASHTO considering business routes to be part of the main U.S. Highway network? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Network tag Re: Highway Shield Rendering
Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 4/4/2012 12:14 PM, Craig Hinners wrote: Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com: It seems that many people see the network tag as not representing a network but a shield design. Does this sound accurate? No, because, where shield designs differ by agency for the same logical network classification, the network tag does not change, despite the differing shields. One of many examples: Maryland uses a unique green-on-white shield for US Business routes, but those roads still get tagged as network=US:US:Business, not network=US:US:Business:MD or somesuch. The renderer would have to detect which agency the road is in, and render the agency-specific shield accordingly. So your belief is that there is such a thing as a U.S. Highway Business network, despite AASHTO considering business routes to be part of the main U.S. Highway network? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us You just answered your own question. The business routes are part of the main U.S. highway network, rather than making up a separate U.S. Highway Business network. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Network tag Re: Highway Shield Rendering
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 4/4/2012 12:14 PM, Craig Hinners wrote: Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com: It seems that many people see the network tag as not representing a network but a shield design. Does this sound accurate? No, because, where shield designs differ by agency for the same logical network classification, the network tag does not change, despite the differing shields. One of many examples: Maryland uses a unique green-on-white shield for US Business routes, but those roads still get tagged as network=US:US:Business, not network=US:US:Business:MD or somesuch. The renderer would have to detect which agency the road is in, and render the agency-specific shield accordingly. Why not network=US:US:Business:MD ? :-) So your belief is that there is such a thing as a U.S. Highway Business network, despite AASHTO considering business routes to be part of the main U.S. Highway network? Who cares about AASHTO? When did they become the bosses of OSM ? Sure we're free to consider their opinions but doing so at the expense of OSM is stupid. I've seen the network tag, from the start as a way to describe the sign with increasing specificity and an opportunity to gracefully fall back to a reasonable default. So if I'm not rendering the green-variant US:US:Business:MD I can fall back to US:US:Business, or even to US:US. Does one renderer or another want to do something smart with other local variants? If it's tagged, they can. Our North American highway signs inspired no interest from our European cousins so this solution is entirely ours. Overloading highway with modifier=business, truck=yes,loop=yes, alt=yes, or whatever, just seems silly. To describe a single, awesome sign. By analogy, you could map a business by placing a node: amenity=fuel. Or by tracing a building=yes, amenity=fuel. Same thing: you want a generic lozenge shield? ref=123 You want a right, clustered shield? network=US:US:Business:MD, ref=123 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Network tag Re: Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/4/2012 1:05 PM, Richard Weait wrote: By analogy, you could map a business by placing a node: amenity=fuel. Or by tracing a building=yes, amenity=fuel. Same thing: you want a generic lozenge shield? ref=123 You want a right, clustered shield? network=US:US:Business:MD, ref=123 And you'd specify the type of fuel using a different tag, not amenity=fuel:diesel. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Network tag Re: Highway Shield Rendering
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: And you'd specify the type of fuel using a different tag, not amenity=fuel:diesel. name= would be a separate tag, so would fuel. Don't choke on the bones. Enjoy the chicken. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Network tag Re: Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/4/2012 1:38 PM, Richard Weait wrote: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com wrote: And you'd specify the type of fuel using a different tag, not amenity=fuel:diesel. name= would be a separate tag, so would fuel. Indeed. How this is a valid analogy for cramming non-network details into the network tag, I don't know. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Network tag Re: Highway Shield Rendering
* Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-04 11:54 -0400]: It seems that many people see the network tag as not representing a network but a shield design. Does this sound accurate? That matches my sense of what people have said about the tagging. I've been thinking of them in terms of subsets of a larger network, but since the subset is largely determined by how it's signed, it amounts to the same thing. * Craig Hinners cr...@hinnerspace.com [2012-04-04 09:14 -0700]: One of many examples: Maryland uses a unique green-on-white shield for US Business routes, but those roads still get tagged as network=US:US:Business, not network=US:US:Business:MD or somesuch. It seems to me that network=US:US:Business:MD is the logical extension of a scheme that has US:US and US:US:Business. I had actually planned on attaching Maryland's US Business shields to the US:US:Business:MD network once I made them, but I haven't gotten to those yet. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- vees my htaccess ban finger is twitching -- seen on #umbclinux --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-04 11:51 -0400]: (By the way, if it wasn't clear, you've done some good work here.) Thank you. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- There's a frood who really knows where his towel is. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Network tag Re: Highway Shield Rendering
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com wrote: * Craig Hinners cr...@hinnerspace.com [2012-04-04 09:14 -0700]: One of many examples: Maryland uses a unique green-on-white shield for US Business routes, but those roads still get tagged as network=US:US:Business, not network=US:US:Business:MD or somesuch. It seems to me that network=US:US:Business:MD is the logical extension of a scheme that has US:US and US:US:Business. I had actually planned on attaching Maryland's US Business shields to the US:US:Business:MD network once I made them, but I haven't gotten to those yet. Personally (and you can take my thoughts here with a grain of salt) my original thinking was (whether clearly communicated or not): network=* should represent a broad shield type, roughly corresponding with the core sign design in question (which is largely universal, in the sense that all numbered routes are part of some network - N routes in France or Ireland, federal highways in Mexico, whatever) ref=* what varies on the shield itself between routes in the same network (maybe the number/designation... maybe the number with a suffix, like bis in several European countries). modifier=* would represent MUTCD-type banners attached to the shield (which are largely a North American thing - in retrospect I probably should have just called it banner) and/or weird stuff like Georgia's CONN. that you need to distinguish but would look silly at the same size as the ref. That said it may be easier to combine modifiers/banners into the network as subtypes. Renderers can fallback to the longest left-anchored substring they understand for weird things they don't understand. Whatever folks want to do (including modifier - banner) would be fine with me; it's not like there are thousands of relations that would need to be changed to the consensus that emerges. As far as non-AASHTO stuff like US 70A (which I'm pretty sure AASHTO considers Alternate US 70), my gut feeling is to tag how it's signed in the field even if it's not technically correct - e.g. network=US:US, ref=70A - as long as we're talking about single-letter suffixes. I still haven't really thought through what to do about Arkansas' irritating redundant signing style (Truck AR 7T), although there again field signing (ref=7T, network=US:AR:Truck or ref=7T, network=US:AR, modifier=Truck) is probably less likely to result in data consumer confusion based on naive rendering than doing something technically correct - presumably at some point AR 7 and Truck AR 7T intersect, so you'd want the map or your GPS app to distinguish clearly which one is which. Chris ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
Ngày 2012-04-02 5:25 AM, Phil! Gold viết: I'm not an expert on every state, so I'm particularly interested in whether things look good to the natives of each state and, if not, what could make them look better. More requests: in addition to its circular-shield state highway system, Kentucky also has an ad-hoc parkway network. [1] At least some of them are tagged `network=US:KY:Parkway` with a shield URL in `symbol`. Unfortunately, Kentucky has made these highways' shield designs more and more intricate over the years, most recently for the state's Unbridled Spirit tourism campaign, to the point that they're more appropriate as entire guide signs than shields. I know you prefer to keep true to the official signage, but the various shields are simply illegible at the current size. One way to simplify them would be to use the routes' two-letter abbreviations. [2] At least some of the abbreviations (WK, BG) do appear in everyday usage because old shields once used them. Adding to the mess, the AA Highway is a special case that I *think* belongs in `network=US:KY` as `ref=AA` (but correct me if I'm wrong, NE2). [3] It'd be nice to get that shield on the map, too. Finally, I just added `network=US:OH` and `symbol` to the Ohio Turnpike, à la Pennsylvania. [4] Looks like the Indiana Toll Road has no relation yet. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kentucky#Kentucky_parkways [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Parkways_and_named_roads_in_Kentucky#List_by_designation [3] http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/409222 [4] http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1661720 -- Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org AIM: trycom2000; Jabber: m...@1ec5.org; Blog: http://notes.1ec5.org/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Network tag Re: Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/4/2012 2:43 PM, Chris Lawrence wrote: Renderers can fallback to the longest left-anchored substring they understand for weird things they don't understand. Bad idea. Google Maps does something like this and it results in 'bannered' routes appearing without banners. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Network tag Re: Highway Shield Rendering
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 4/4/2012 2:43 PM, Chris Lawrence wrote: Renderers can fallback to the longest left-anchored substring they understand for weird things they don't understand. Bad idea. Google Maps does something like this and it results in 'bannered' routes appearing without banners. Meh. I was mostly referring to weird stuff like US:TX:FM:Business or US:US:Business:MD. To me, US:US:Business:MD falling back on US:US:Business is fine. Tagwatch processes should catch common cases like US:US:Alternate and US:US:Business and ensure they get rendered correctly. Besides, if we slapped the info in the ref tag, our naive data consumers would just render a foot-wide shield with 460 Business in it. Or break at the space and do the exact thing Google's doing with bannered routes already. Stupid data consumers are stupid data consumers; there's no technical solution for it. Chris ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 5:55 AM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com wrote: I stayed up way too late last night. Try visiting those URLs again. (Once again, most of the map will rerender after you've looked at it so the way to see the changes in different areas is to look at them once then come back as much as a half hour later.) Other places that I know are rerendered include these: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=37.27562lon=-79.93635layers=B0 http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=13lat=40.12983lon=-74.71446layers=B0 Amazing, this looks fantastic! Can't wait to see this as the official map of OSM US. Given that trailblazers vary country-to-country, there's no reason this couldn't be applicable worldwide. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Network tag Re: Highway Shield Rendering
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Chris Lawrence lordsu...@gmail.com wrote: Meh. I was mostly referring to weird stuff like US:TX:FM:Business or US:US:Business:MD. To me, US:US:Business:MD falling back on US:US:Business is fine. Tagwatch processes should catch common cases like US:US:Alternate and US:US:Business and ensure they get rendered correctly. OK, I'll bite. How is putting banners in the network tag preferential? why not something like... network=US:TX:FM modifier=Business network=US:US modifier=Business is_in=Maryland ...instead? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
There seems to be a problem here with US 17-92: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=12lat=28.96029lon=-81.31906layers=B0 Change over to sign style and a bunch of shields appear. Example tiles (to avoid loading the whole thing): http://elrond.aperiodic.net/mtiles/cutouts/12/1122/1704.png http://elrond.aperiodic.net/mtiles/shields/12/1122/1704.png ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/4/2012 10:23 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: There seems to be a problem here with US 17-92: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=12lat=28.96029lon=-81.31906layers=B0 Change over to sign style and a bunch of shields appear. Example tiles (to avoid loading the whole thing): http://elrond.aperiodic.net/mtiles/cutouts/12/1122/1704.png http://elrond.aperiodic.net/mtiles/shields/12/1122/1704.png Er - upon rerendering, they don't appear in sign style anymore. That definitely says there's a problem now. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
