Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: [OSM-dev] Licence redaction ready to begin
On 7/10/2012 5:43 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: Oh, and South Carolina. Not going to touch that. Don't Tread on Us - LOL. The state capital region of Columbia, South Carolina will be a prime test of the Do empty areas attract contributors? theory for some time to come. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: [OSM-dev] Licence redaction ready to begin
Hi, On 07/11/12 13:59, Mike N wrote: The state capital region of Columbia, South Carolina will be a prime test of the Do empty areas attract contributors? theory for some time to come. Why, is someone planning to remove the TIGER import in that area? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: [OSM-dev] Licence redaction ready to begin
On 7/11/2012 8:38 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, On 07/11/12 13:59, Mike N wrote: The state capital region of Columbia, South Carolina will be a prime test of the Do empty areas attract contributors? theory for some time to come. Why, is someone planning to remove the TIGER import in that area? Bye Frederik No, just removing a prolific decliner's work - BadMap removal: http://cleanmap.poole.ch/?zoom=11lat=34.03016lon=-81.17525layers=00B For a close-up: http://cleanmap.poole.ch/?zoom=15lat=33.99334lon=-81.24366layers=00B There are many other things that could be undone, such as joining county borders in the state, and many individual node alignments that don't show up in the overview map. Not the end of the world, but routing consumers will need to adjust their expectations for a period of time. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: [OSM-dev] Licence redaction ready to begin
On 7/11/2012 8:38 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, On 07/11/12 13:59, Mike N wrote: The state capital region of Columbia, South Carolina will be a prime test of the Do empty areas attract contributors? theory for some time to come. Why, is someone planning to remove the TIGER import in that area? Yes, wherever those TIGER ways were either outright deleted or combined with other ways. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: [OSM-dev] Licence redaction ready to begin
Hi, On 07/11/12 15:20, Nathan Edgars II wrote: The state capital region of Columbia, South Carolina will be a prime test of the Do empty areas attract contributors? theory for some time to come. Why, is someone planning to remove the TIGER import in that area? Yes, wherever those TIGER ways were either outright deleted or combined with other ways. Obviously my comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek; I am personally convinced that the unedited TIGER landscape - i.e. a map of which virtually nothing is correct and once you start to work somewhere you have to touch almost every single object if you want an acceptable result - is the worst situation for attracting mappers. Therefore, returning an area to how it was after TIGER (and deleting selected objects for good measure) is certainly not creating an empty area in the sense of the do empty areas attract contributors theory. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: [OSM-dev] Licence redaction ready to begin
On 7/11/2012 9:31 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, On 07/11/12 15:20, Nathan Edgars II wrote: The state capital region of Columbia, South Carolina will be a prime test of the Do empty areas attract contributors? theory for some time to come. Why, is someone planning to remove the TIGER import in that area? Yes, wherever those TIGER ways were either outright deleted or combined with other ways. Obviously my comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek; I am personally convinced that the unedited TIGER landscape - i.e. a map of which virtually nothing is correct Nope. and once you start to work somewhere you have to touch almost every single object if you want an acceptable result - is the worst situation for attracting mappers. Therefore, returning an area to how it was after TIGER (and deleting selected objects for good measure) is certainly not creating an empty area in the sense of the do empty areas attract contributors theory. My comment was serious. Where an ungood user has done a lot of editing to TIGER ways, the OSMF will not return it to the TIGER state, but will leave a horrible mess of half-deleted TIGER. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: [OSM-dev] Licence redaction ready to begin
On 07/11/2012 09:31 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Obviously my comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek; I am personally convinced that the unedited TIGER landscape - i.e. a map of which virtually nothing is correct and once you start to work somewhere you have to touch almost every single object if you want an acceptable result - is the worst situation for attracting mappers. Therefore, returning an area to how it was after TIGER (and deleting selected objects for good measure) is certainly not creating an empty area in the sense of the do empty areas attract contributors theory. I'd be fine with trying to clean up unedited TIGER - or even a horrible mess of half-deleted TIGER - if the expectations of the results weren't quite so daunting. We seem to have come around to seeking perfection rather than improvement - which is death to crowdsourcing. The culture of OSM seems to be veering from bad data happens, and when it does, other mappers fix it, to we have to protect the map from the mappers. The data checks in JOSM and Potlatch2 are fine in that they all indeed highlight potential problems. But the sum total of them is just overwhelming. Right now, it feels as if I need to rectify every problem in any object that I've downloaded, to silence all the complaints from the tools. They seem to lack even the idea of forward motion - this part of the map isn't perfect, but at least it's better than what was there before. Instead, the UI at default settings appears (to a novice) to insist on perfection. This becomes even worse if someone is working on, say, a piece of the NHD import. There seems to be the expectation that if I'm importing a sub-basin, I'll go out and visit every place where a road and a stream meet, to get the levels right and either mark the road as a bridge or the stream as a culvert. If I fail to do so (and that fine distinction may not be obvious even in the field!) I'll get raft of warnings for crossing ways. I won't have broken rendering. I won't have broken routing. But I'll have failed to verify personally that the resulting rendering and routing are actually correct in every detail. The fact that TIGER was of questionable quality and was done as a bulk import isn't really the problem, as I see it. Even half-deleted TIGER isn't really the issue. We'd have had exactly the same situation if the street network had been created by an army of novice mappers doing their own neighbourhoods - and possibly leaving part way through the job: a mountain of data of variable quality and completeness, and a scolding from the tools when you attempt a small fix without cleaning up everything. How do other mappers deal with the perfectionism that pervades the community? I'm actually starting to keep tables in my personal PostGIS of things that I've mapped, but can't push upstream without fixing tons of things that I haven't mapped. Or things that I've copied and pasted from public domain sources, but haven't verified with boots on the ground. Or things that I can't quite figure out how to tag. I know I've been advised in the past, just do it. People complain, but they don't revert good data. Is that still sound advice? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping more
On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 10:20 AM, Kevin Kenny kken...@nycap.rr.com wrote: I'd be fine with trying to clean up unedited TIGER - or even a horrible mess of half-deleted TIGER - if the expectations of the results weren't quite so daunting. [ ... ] Larger cleanups can be imposing at first glance. Other mappers will understand that a single mapper can't do everything at once, so you shouldn't be criticized if you fix a few things but not others. How do other mappers deal with the perfectionism that pervades the community? Treasure it :-) Of course we may have as many different flavours of perfectionism as we have mappers. Some will have an unnatural interest in baseball diamonds and others in bicycle amenities. Each of those mappers might consider the home range of the other to be imperfect. That diversity is a strength of OSM, overall. If you are finding it overwhelming to consider a large repair, start with a few easy bits, or those bits that most-interest you. For example, if the road network in your town is badly aligned, start perhaps with fixing just the main street that bisects it. Now, rather than one large problem, you have two smaller problem areas, with a good baseline between. Then perhaps sub-divide it further into manageable bites. Back before we had good aerial imagery in my area, it seems that new mappers popped up and started contributing when a framework of arterial roads was mapped. Those provided a boundary of neighbourhoods for new mappers to adopt and map. Perhaps you'll see something similar. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: [OSM-dev] Licence redaction ready to begin
Kevin, On 07/11/12 16:20, Kevin Kenny wrote: The data checks in JOSM and Potlatch2 are fine in that they all indeed highlight potential problems. As RichardF has pointed out, Potlatch2 sorely lacks any kind of data check. With the exception of unconnected road ends flashing aggressively. But the sum total of them is just overwhelming. Right now, it feels as if I need to rectify every problem in any object that I've downloaded, to silence all the complaints from the tools. One has to to take them as nagging-but-wanting-to-help tools rather than as commanders. Sometimes it says road without name and I go oops, right, forgot that; sometimes I go shut the f%$ up, if I knew the name I'd have entered it!. I think doing something half-good and letting others (or the future self) fix it is perfectly all right. With one exception: It is not all right to import crap hoping that others will somehow make it non-crap. The bar for imports is much, much higher than the bar for human edits. This becomes even worse if someone is working on, say, a piece of the NHD import. There seems to be the expectation that if I'm importing a sub-basin, I'll go out and visit every place where a road and a stream meet, to get the levels right and either mark the road as a bridge or the stream as a culvert. That's because someone has imported crap and is now relying on you to make it non-crap. They shouldn't have done that. But if I were in your situation I'd ignore all the warnings. It might not be a bad idea to have the validator run once data has been downloaded, and then when you upload, only have it show *new* problems caused by you. I'll float the idea on josm-dev. I know I've been advised in the past, just do it. People complain, but they don't revert good data. Is that still sound advice? I must say that I have rarely seen real people complain about things like you mention - crossing ways etc.; it's just the validator that does that. People will complain about other things. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: [OSM-dev] Licence redaction ready to begin
On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 10:20 AM, Kevin Kenny kken...@nycap.rr.com wrote: The culture of OSM seems to be veering from bad data happens, and when it does, other mappers fix it, to we have to protect the map from the mappers. Not from mappers, from disruptive bots. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: [OSM-dev] Licence redaction ready to begin
Hi, On 11.07.2012 17:44, Frederik Ramm wrote: As RichardF has pointed out, Potlatch2 sorely lacks any kind of data check. With the exception of unconnected road ends flashing aggressively. I have been informed that I have no clue, and P2 never did that. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: [OSM-dev] Licence redaction ready to begin
Frederik Ramm wrote: I have been informed that I have no clue Actually the phrase I used was that Frederik clearly knows as much about Potlatch as I do about JOSM. (But I suspect more.) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Fwd-OSM-dev-Licence-redaction-ready-to-begin-tp5715740p5716138.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: [OSM-dev] Licence redaction ready to begin
The newer TIGER 2011 data is a BIG improvement over the original TIGER data that was put in the US. When the roads for Columbia, SC are deleted by the license bot, someone could go in and upload the TIGER 2011 data for Columbia. Of course, things like footways and parks may be deleted as well, but at least having the roads in there is better than nothing. -Compdude -Original Message- From: Frederik Ramm [mailto:frede...@remote.org] Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 6:31 AM To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: [OSM-dev] Licence redaction ready to begin Hi, On 07/11/12 15:20, Nathan Edgars II wrote: The state capital region of Columbia, South Carolina will be a prime test of the Do empty areas attract contributors? theory for some time to come. Why, is someone planning to remove the TIGER import in that area? Yes, wherever those TIGER ways were either outright deleted or combined with other ways. Obviously my comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek; I am personally convinced that the unedited TIGER landscape - i.e. a map of which virtually nothing is correct and once you start to work somewhere you have to touch almost every single object if you want an acceptable result - is the worst situation for attracting mappers. Therefore, returning an area to how it was after TIGER (and deleting selected objects for good measure) is certainly not creating an empty area in the sense of the do empty areas attract contributors theory. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping more
If people don't want to do the TIGER fixup all over again, they could import the TIGER 2011 data which is of MUCH better quality than the TIGER data that was originally imported into OSM (though not quite perfect). In fact, I sometimes use the TIGER data overlay to get the names of roads that have been built recently after having traced them from the satellite image. This uploading of new TIGER 2011 data would be a much better use of peoples' time than having to do the TIGER fixup all over again. Just an idea... Compdude -Original Message- From: Richard Weait [mailto:rich...@weait.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 8:19 AM To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping more On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 10:20 AM, Kevin Kenny kken...@nycap.rr.com wrote: I'd be fine with trying to clean up unedited TIGER - or even a horrible mess of half-deleted TIGER - if the expectations of the results weren't quite so daunting. [ ... ] Larger cleanups can be imposing at first glance. Other mappers will understand that a single mapper can't do everything at once, so you shouldn't be criticized if you fix a few things but not others. How do other mappers deal with the perfectionism that pervades the community? Treasure it :-) Of course we may have as many different flavours of perfectionism as we have mappers. Some will have an unnatural interest in baseball diamonds and others in bicycle amenities. Each of those mappers might consider the home range of the other to be imperfect. That diversity is a strength of OSM, overall. If you are finding it overwhelming to consider a large repair, start with a few easy bits, or those bits that most-interest you. For example, if the road network in your town is badly aligned, start perhaps with fixing just the main street that bisects it. Now, rather than one large problem, you have two smaller problem areas, with a good baseline between. Then perhaps sub-divide it further into manageable bites. Back before we had good aerial imagery in my area, it seems that new mappers popped up and started contributing when a framework of arterial roads was mapped. Those provided a boundary of neighbourhoods for new mappers to adopt and map. Perhaps you'll see something similar. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
