Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import
Hi, On 12/17/12 04:02, Michal Migurski wrote: I pulled together some of the notes and imagery I've been posting here recently: http://www.openstreetmap.us/~migurski/green-means-go/ I take offense at your wording (on the page): Where in the United States could government imports improve OpenStreetMap? - you might add data to OSM but will you improve OSM? It's not the same, and equating the two is a mistake that insiders should not make. The wording Green squares show places where data imports are unlikely to interfere with community mapping. is also misleading; it has been shown that imports can very well interfere with *future* community mapping of which you would, naturally, not find traces in the data you analysed. The correct wording is: Green squares show places where little or no community mapping has taken place in the past. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Imports in Riley county, KS
Based on reaction to the mass buildings import (perceived as way too fast, and I agree), I would suggest that you have a 2 week review period From the latest time that there is either - a change in the processing script - new data being available - a substantive change in the procedure I think it also makes sense to do the import into the dev server and let people look at how it came out there. If it's not right, no real harm done. pgpRflQhNR1OI.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US
Folks, I know what it's like to be excited about OSM, and I know what it's like to be frustrated with OSM, struggling with low data quality, or lack of data altogether. And then you get access to a large dataset, and you know that having it in OSM would improve things. It would improve the quality, and maybe even get people mapping. At the same time, I think many of you have seen the damage that bad imports can do. The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by the import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are frstrated by the import process. So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide imports and large edits. This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data, and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback. When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one of the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's finally the amount of data and interest to justify it. What do folks think? - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:42 AM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: [...] So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide imports and large edits. [...] What do folks think? Excellent idea and a good time to do it. Cleaning up the wiki around US-related imports should be among the first tasks, and bringing together all the lessons learned from imports to date. -Josh ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US
On 12/17/12 9:42 AM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one of the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's finally the amount of data and interest to justify it. What do folks think? i think it's a necessary step, thanks for working to move it forward. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US
Interesting idea… trying to wrap my mind around this. On Dec 17, 2012, at 9:42 AM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide imports and large edits. What specifically would this committee (or point person or whatever it might be) offer? I'm asking this question as I'm thinking that our problem for guiding imports properly is quite simply this: time and/or money. Making a new committe won't solve either of these problems, but being very specific about what a more formal process would bring us could help us find the proper resources (likely volunteer resources but maybe we need to think bigger). This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data, and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback. I've seen that in the recent Mass GIS import there was broad feedback on the proposed import, I'm assuming that a mailing list based feedback process like that will continue to be a good idea in the future. What will a committee add to this process? Or how will it facilitate it? Can we describe the problem areas that arise when doing imports in more concrete terms so that we can delineate better what such a committee would do for us? Alex Barth http://twitter.com/lxbarth tel (+1) 202 250 3633 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US
Two more quesions just came to my mind: - Are there any volunteers who would love to run with guiding imports better? - Would also love to learn Jason Remillard's perspective of what could be done better given that he's in the middle of working on the MassGIS building import :) On Dec 17, 2012, at 9:42 AM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: Folks, I know what it's like to be excited about OSM, and I know what it's like to be frustrated with OSM, struggling with low data quality, or lack of data altogether. And then you get access to a large dataset, and you know that having it in OSM would improve things. It would improve the quality, and maybe even get people mapping. At the same time, I think many of you have seen the damage that bad imports can do. The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by the import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are frstrated by the import process. So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide imports and large edits. This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data, and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback. When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one of the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's finally the amount of data and interest to justify it. What do folks think? - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Alex Barth http://twitter.com/lxbarth tel (+1) 202 250 3633 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data, and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback. On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote: Excellent idea and a good time to do it. Cleaning up the wiki around US-related imports should be among the first tasks, and bringing together all the lessons learned from imports to date. -Josh What is stopping these this from happening without a committee? I appreciate the interest in reducing import frustration all around, but there's nothing stopping the wiki from being cleaned up in a way that fosters group discussion and there's nothing stopping people from turning lessons learned into well-defined rules. From the above example, what's the appropriate amount of time for the community to review the data? That seems like something we could define without a committee. I'm not saying we shouldn't have a committee, but I believe process definition - and not organizational structure is our current biggest issue with imports. Serge - thanks for taking the lead in bringing this idea forward. - Jeff -- Jeff Meyer Global World History Atlas www.gwhat.org j...@gwhat.org 206-676-2347 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US
Alex, You're asking good questions. Instead of trying to answer them point by point, let me try instead to give you a comprehensive answer. The community (US and broader worldwide community) have issues with imports. I won't rehash those issues now- we can do that another time but what we have are a lot of people, especially older, more respected members of the community, who are very anti-import. And on the other side, we have some really nice data resources. How do we bring these two together in a way that makes sense. And by make sense, I mean doesn't cause the kinds of problems that imports have caused in our past, which are well documented. We've tried documentation, but documentation alone hasn't worked. It's been partial and difficult to maintain and a bit hap-hazard. For the maintainers, it's difficult and frustrating and for the importers, it's vague and a bit confusing. The same goes for formalizing the process, which is just another way of saying documentation, but sounding more fancy. I'm suggesting a different approach, one where you have a proposed importer saying I have this data, they then take it to a committee/working group who has been blessed by the community to help with this process. They evaluate the data (license, quality, suitability, etc.) and then if it makes sense, work with the person making the import to get it done. That can mean documenting it, making sure the data is properly formatted, figuring out if there are conflation steps necessary to be taken, etc. Because this committee will be doing this somewhat frequently, and with a mandate of proper documentation to be presented to the US Chapter Board, then documentation will come out of it, born out of the actual experiences of the group, so it should be more concise, more practical, and more concise. The community gets a group of motivated people who want to make imports happen (where it makes sense). Importers get a process, and someone to work with. The board (and the US Community, as well as the larger OSM community) gets accountability. Does that answer your question? - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US
Jeff Meyer wrote On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Serge Wroclawski lt; emacsen@ gt; wrote: What is stopping these this from happening without a committee? Probably nothing. Although a committee might not strictly be necessary, it can give an additional boost of motivation and sense of responsibility to get through times when the work is necessary but less rewarding. It can also make things easier (better defined) for people with data to approach the committee rather than random individuals. But really, from the OSMF committees I have worked on, they are mostly just a bunch of people that would be doing things anyway now meet regularly on irc instead of on an random and adhoc basis. So it really doesn't make much of a difference and so if it helps with motivation, one might as well. Overall, I think it is a great idea. It seems clear that in general the US community is in favor and is (and has been) going down the direction of large scale imports. As imports are technically challenging and difficult, it is great to see if technically capable people deeply routed in the community take charge of the import process to ensure that they are done to the highest technical standard, instead of just standing on the sidelines and complaining that imports are bad and leaving the imports to people who are less familiar with the community standards and tools doing it anyway. Which leads to the poor execution of imports we have unfortunately seen so often in the past. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Imports-and-Mass-Edits-in-the-US-tp5740698p5740730.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Imports in Riley county, KS
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 7:58 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Based on reaction to the mass buildings import (perceived as way too fast, and I agree), I would suggest that you have a 2 week review period From the latest time that there is either - a change in the processing script - new data being available - a substantive change in the procedure I think it also makes sense to do the import into the dev server and let people look at how it came out there. If it's not right, no real harm done. Fair enough. The borders and parks data is simple enough (under 90 ways) that I was just going to get it out of the way but I can wait. And like I said, the address file needs a fair bit of work anyway. I will definitely send an update when I get closer to having a finished product there. So at this point I guess nothing is likely to happen until January. Toby ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import
Nice. Suggestions; - kill water somehow - Information density at low zoom levels implies that basically everywhere is green. But you zoom to the bay area and see this isn't the case. So, change the coloring? Modulate it by population density? Steve On Dec 16, 2012, at 8:32 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: OK this is plain awesome. Great work Mike. One note of caution though - the title may suggest that you can just go ahead and import away, but folks would still have to follow the import guidelines and contact the OSM community at large, come up with a solid proposal and discuss that, even if there is no local community. I know it says it on the tin, but it's kind of tucked away at the bottom. Have you looked into full history planet parsing to get a fuller picture of editing history? I took a stab at full history user metrics some time ago using osmjs; https://github.com/mvexel/OSMQualityMetrics/blob/master/UserStats.js - this produces one set of metrics for the entire .osh file you feed it but it may prove useful for future work. I haven't touched this in a while but it should still work :/ On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Michal Migurski m...@teczno.com wrote: I pulled together some of the notes and imagery I've been posting here recently: http://www.openstreetmap.us/~migurski/green-means-go/ It's a map of 1km×1km squares covering the continental United States. Green squares show places where data imports are unlikely to interfere with community mapping. Raw data is linked at the bottom. Three things that would make this better: - Regular updates with archived older versions. - Renders for specific counties, intended for local GIS communities. - Some awareness of full planet history. The OSM-US server has data for regular updates. -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import
While I like the idea of being able to identify and possibly do imports for one-kilometer-square (why not miles?) chunks of the map, I think it needs to be accompanied with lots of cautionary language about assessing the area thoroughly before taking any such action. We could give people examples of what to look for to see if the area really is a TIGER desert, and what to check before making a move. May be it would be better if a group of squares are identified using criteria set up by the Data group or someone similarly experienced. Then, the square kilometers could be presented in a Maproulette kind of format, but with a chance to choose which one you take on. That way, you could choose square kilometers that are near where you are working anyway or near areas with which you are familiar. Best, Charlotte At 12:22 PM 12/17/2012, you wrote: Nice. Suggestions; - kill water somehow - Information density at low zoom levels implies that basically everywhere is green. But you zoom to the bay area and see this isn't the case. So, change the coloring? Modulate it by population density? Steve On Dec 16, 2012, at 8:32 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: OK this is plain awesome. Great work Mike. One note of caution though - the title may suggest that you can just go ahead and import away, but folks would still have to follow the import guidelines and contact the OSM community at large, come up with a solid proposal and discuss that, even if there is no local community. I know it says it on the tin, but it's kind of tucked away at the bottom. Have you looked into full history planet parsing to get a fuller picture of editing history? I took a stab at full history user metrics some time ago using osmjs; https://github.com/mvexel/OSMQualityMetrics/blob/master/UserStats.js - this produces one set of metrics for the entire .osh file you feed it but it may prove useful for future work. I haven't touched this in a while but it should still work :/ On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Michal Migurski m...@teczno.com wrote: I pulled together some of the notes and imagery I've been posting here recently: http://www.openstreetmap.us/~migurski/green-means-go/ It's a map of 1km×1km squares covering the continental United States. Green squares show places where data imports are unlikely to interfere with community mapping. Raw data is linked at the bottom. Three things that would make this better: - Regular updates with archived older versions. - Renders for specific counties, intended for local GIS communities. - Some awareness of full planet history. The OSM-US server has data for regular updates. -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techl...@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady The Four Internet Freedoms Freedom to visit any site on the Internet Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would affect the first three freedoms. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import
On Dec 16, 2012, at 8:32 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote: OK this is plain awesome. Great work Mike. One note of caution though - the title may suggest that you can just go ahead and import away, but folks would still have to follow the import guidelines and contact the OSM community at large, come up with a solid proposal and discuss that, even if there is no local community. I know it says it on the tin, but it's kind of tucked away at the bottom. You're right, I've emphasized that up near the top, thanks. Have you looked into full history planet parsing to get a fuller picture of editing history? I took a stab at full history user metrics some time ago using osmjs; https://github.com/mvexel/OSMQualityMetrics/blob/master/UserStats.js - this produces one set of metrics for the entire .osh file you feed it but it may prove useful for future work. I haven't touched this in a while but it should still work :/ I have downloaded a copy and given it a beginning look. I'm new to parsing things of that magnitude; my first thought was to use the full history file for creations/modifications/deletions on nodes and add that to what I'm doing already for ways on the osm2pgsql tables. Does that sound reasonable? I'll check out your parser; what kinds of metrics does it produce? -mike. On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Michal Migurski m...@teczno.com wrote: I pulled together some of the notes and imagery I've been posting here recently: http://www.openstreetmap.us/~migurski/green-means-go/ It's a map of 1km×1km squares covering the continental United States. Green squares show places where data imports are unlikely to interfere with community mapping. Raw data is linked at the bottom. Three things that would make this better: - Regular updates with archived older versions. - Renders for specific counties, intended for local GIS communities. - Some awareness of full planet history. The OSM-US server has data for regular updates. -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import
On Dec 17, 2012, at 1:58 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, On 12/17/12 04:02, Michal Migurski wrote: I pulled together some of the notes and imagery I've been posting here recently: http://www.openstreetmap.us/~migurski/green-means-go/ I take offense at your wording (on the page): Where in the United States could government imports improve OpenStreetMap? - you might add data to OSM but will you improve OSM? It's not the same, and equating the two is a mistake that insiders should not make. The wording Green squares show places where data imports are unlikely to interfere with community mapping. is also misleading; it has been shown that imports can very well interfere with *future* community mapping of which you would, naturally, not find traces in the data you analysed. The correct wording is: Green squares show places where little or no community mapping has taken place in the past. How about something like this? Green squares show places where data imports are unlikely to conflict with past community mapping. I think in the case of the US, the previous government data is so bad relative to what's currently out there that a fresh import will necessarily improve OSM, if I can make the green areas more reflective of the true state of edited places. Full history is a means to this; I've got some off-list responses from people who don't think that their own mapping efforts are accurately reflected in the green squares. -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import
Information density: maybe a different grid for lower zoom levels, e.g. 5km, 10km, etc.? It would have the opposite effect of what's there now I think, which is look at all that green! -mike. On Dec 17, 2012, at 12:22 PM, Steve Coast wrote: Nice. Suggestions; - kill water somehow - Information density at low zoom levels implies that basically everywhere is green. But you zoom to the bay area and see this isn't the case. So, change the coloring? Modulate it by population density? Steve On Dec 16, 2012, at 8:32 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: OK this is plain awesome. Great work Mike. One note of caution though - the title may suggest that you can just go ahead and import away, but folks would still have to follow the import guidelines and contact the OSM community at large, come up with a solid proposal and discuss that, even if there is no local community. I know it says it on the tin, but it's kind of tucked away at the bottom. Have you looked into full history planet parsing to get a fuller picture of editing history? I took a stab at full history user metrics some time ago using osmjs; https://github.com/mvexel/OSMQualityMetrics/blob/master/UserStats.js - this produces one set of metrics for the entire .osh file you feed it but it may prove useful for future work. I haven't touched this in a while but it should still work :/ On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Michal Migurski m...@teczno.com wrote: I pulled together some of the notes and imagery I've been posting here recently: http://www.openstreetmap.us/~migurski/green-means-go/ It's a map of 1km×1km squares covering the continental United States. Green squares show places where data imports are unlikely to interfere with community mapping. Raw data is linked at the bottom. Three things that would make this better: - Regular updates with archived older versions. - Renders for specific counties, intended for local GIS communities. - Some awareness of full planet history. The OSM-US server has data for regular updates. -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import
Agreed. What I *really* want is a version of this map that's tailored to meaningful jurisdictions, Census places and counties. It's one thing to see an all-over view but if you're a city GIS guy and you have a file of data that you want to input, it'd be useful for you to see just your specific area with some guidance on how to proceed: 1. How much is green vs. not green, and the likelihood of improvement. 2. OSM users who are responsible for existing work in your area. 3. Non-highway data in the area, e.g. POIs and such. Christine White from Esri, who attended SOTM-US in Portland, told me that at the annual user conference she gets a regular stream of these people approaching her with blobs of official data, a desire to donate it to OSM, and no knowledge about how to proceed or what effect it would have. We should help her and them! -mike. On Dec 17, 2012, at 12:39 PM, Charlotte Wolter wrote: While I like the idea of being able to identify and possibly do imports for one-kilometer-square (why not miles?) chunks of the map, I think it needs to be accompanied with lots of cautionary language about assessing the area thoroughly before taking any such action. We could give people examples of what to look for to see if the area really is a TIGER desert, and what to check before making a move. May be it would be better if a group of squares are identified using criteria set up by the Data group or someone similarly experienced. Then, the square kilometers could be presented in a Maproulette kind of format, but with a chance to choose which one you take on. That way, you could choose square kilometers that are near where you are working anyway or near areas with which you are familiar. Best, Charlotte At 12:22 PM 12/17/2012, you wrote: Nice. Suggestions; - kill water somehow - Information density at low zoom levels implies that basically everywhere is green. But you zoom to the bay area and see this isn't the case. So, change the coloring? Modulate it by population density? Steve On Dec 16, 2012, at 8:32 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: OK this is plain awesome. Great work Mike. One note of caution though - the title may suggest that you can just go ahead and import away, but folks would still have to follow the import guidelines and contact the OSM community at large, come up with a solid proposal and discuss that, even if there is no local community. I know it says it on the tin, but it's kind of tucked away at the bottom. Have you looked into full history planet parsing to get a fuller picture of editing history? I took a stab at full history user metrics some time ago using osmjs; https://github.com/mvexel/OSMQualityMetrics/blob/master/UserStats.js - this produces one set of metrics for the entire .osh file you feed it but it may prove useful for future work. I haven't touched this in a while but it should still work :/ On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Michal Migurski m...@teczno.com wrote: I pulled together some of the notes and imagery I've been posting here recently: http://www.openstreetmap.us/~migurski/green-means-go/ It's a map of 1km×1km squares covering the continental United States. Green squares show places where data imports are unlikely to interfere with community mapping. Raw data is linked at the bottom. Three things that would make this better: - Regular updates with archived older versions. - Renders for specific counties, intended for local GIS communities. - Some awareness of full planet history. The OSM-US server has data for regular updates. -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techl...@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady The Four Internet Freedoms Freedom to visit any site on the Internet Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would affect the first three freedoms. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import
On Dec 17, 2012, at 12:45 PM, Michal Migurski m...@teczno.com wrote: Information density: maybe a different grid for lower zoom levels, e.g. 5km, 10km, etc.? It would have the opposite effect of what's there now I think, which is look at all that green! I prefer modulating by population, since a sea of green in Wyoming (with apologies to those in Wyoming) really doesn't matter since nobody lives there. The question is, where is the population / edits ration low, not the absolute edits numbers. Maybe ask people from CloudMade what they did 3 years ago. Also, I wouldn't ask the question(s) in a vacuum. I suspect, but cannot confirm, that if you did a similar analysis of NT or TA data in the US you'd see exactly the same thing; a natural economic bias in the metrics to mapping places with high population density. Steve -mike. On Dec 17, 2012, at 12:22 PM, Steve Coast wrote: Nice. Suggestions; - kill water somehow - Information density at low zoom levels implies that basically everywhere is green. But you zoom to the bay area and see this isn't the case. So, change the coloring? Modulate it by population density? Steve On Dec 16, 2012, at 8:32 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: OK this is plain awesome. Great work Mike. One note of caution though - the title may suggest that you can just go ahead and import away, but folks would still have to follow the import guidelines and contact the OSM community at large, come up with a solid proposal and discuss that, even if there is no local community. I know it says it on the tin, but it's kind of tucked away at the bottom. Have you looked into full history planet parsing to get a fuller picture of editing history? I took a stab at full history user metrics some time ago using osmjs; https://github.com/mvexel/OSMQualityMetrics/blob/master/UserStats.js - this produces one set of metrics for the entire .osh file you feed it but it may prove useful for future work. I haven't touched this in a while but it should still work :/ On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Michal Migurski m...@teczno.com wrote: I pulled together some of the notes and imagery I've been posting here recently: http://www.openstreetmap.us/~migurski/green-means-go/ It's a map of 1km×1km squares covering the continental United States. Green squares show places where data imports are unlikely to interfere with community mapping. Raw data is linked at the bottom. Three things that would make this better: - Regular updates with archived older versions. - Renders for specific counties, intended for local GIS communities. - Some awareness of full planet history. The OSM-US server has data for regular updates. -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US
Serge, This is a good idea. I have a large file of data from the Acoma tribe, but my efforts to negotiate the import wiki have been fruitless. I can't made heads or tails of it. Further, I don't know if it's the kind of data we want (though they say it is public domain and gave permission in writing). It is road center lines for the whole reservation. I remember a remark somewhere in this forum that center lines are not the best data. At any rate, I'm not a good judge of whether or not it is what we want. In addition, I've already done work on the main roads, though often I'm lacking a name or number. And, I don't have tools to exmine a data file to see if it is congruent with what OSM can use. So, for many reasons, having a knowledgeable group take this on seems to me like a great idea. Best, Charlotte At 06:42 AM 12/17/2012, you wrote: Folks, I know what it's like to be excited about OSM, and I know what it's like to be frustrated with OSM, struggling with low data quality, or lack of data altogether. And then you get access to a large dataset, and you know that having it in OSM would improve things. It would improve the quality, and maybe even get people mapping. At the same time, I think many of you have seen the damage that bad imports can do. The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by the import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are frstrated by the import process. So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide imports and large edits. This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data, and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback. When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one of the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's finally the amount of data and interest to justify it. What do folks think? - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techl...@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady The Four Internet Freedoms Freedom to visit any site on the Internet Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would affect the first three freedoms. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Fwd: Re: More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import
X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-RR-Connecting-IP: 97.74.135.185 Delivered-To: techl...@techlady.com X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AogCAKN8z1BZELOWlGdsb2JhbABFFoJWXLpXCBYOAQEBAQkLCQkUBCOCHgEBAQMBAQEBPQEBBAoeCwECAgEBAgYBCxgmCAMBIwEMAQUBHAYTBQ+HeQYBAwibWIp0hDoBBY5+Boxdg2JhiC81inuDSoRPiH0/hDU DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=asklater.com; s=google; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=2nLuO7eTB6RvHegtilzC/gZRaRmYHSpTPIcZmnGU67M=; b=UBBnklUjHcNAyFGRK94nFa+Cb6JdjAcw4xUpnz6fYfx6bCdl2jQ5VDCPRbBcKvdq9U QIGlHQbOdBLwjy2MhhU1FOT2+v0asyYeqKo5zEbrHLsukwsQBX9OHDCgExS13rrKAt6I jkMfgRdmug79A9CaJlfHVPWuO3Cc3H6L3w/Lo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=2nLuO7eTB6RvHegtilzC/gZRaRmYHSpTPIcZmnGU67M=; b=a+nMSrmhY+QNA4VCT1J2xx5WvLhEtX1NmsgLn1adR3IRb1C5hFapbHgB//kl4g3RHK YfEbED9LUE5zmXmsk/MQky0AeptM8cPRWMW4k93RcFzL+f9jnn88t7GwXofkS/hxkbhR CEXQ4AyiO0VtBiscU50czWeazOQc0pL0X7lTEXwt1nquycumfnUvAmD9id4NziUQCRJR O6SVAq0fg9bH1DGnUg7KT1uqzYAZkE4ZdBuUzHvvGdi2mhe39tY6oUca3yYd+LU17Zsi wAMxlOxzAxTBWcpuNahSB/LTi32F3guui5uklJVA5a3keY6A3s79Kr5IPv2HLXLi5VFQ r8dg== From: Steve Coast st...@asklater.com Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 12:22:10 -0800 To: Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm0Rt9I+V6dfilQQhg55d4OkdlZV6dxrjtO+Mn7M4hJZS9fcuwPrlc4iLMpMN8trGrLfVXS Cc: Michal Migurski m...@teczno.com, OpenStreetMap US Talk talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import X-BeenThere: talk-us@openstreetmap.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 List-Id: OpenStreetMap USA talk-us.openstreetmap.org List-Unsubscribe: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/options/talk-us, mailto:talk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=unsubscribe List-Archive: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us List-Post: mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org Hi Mike, I was looking at the web page yu created. One problem is that I'm not sure which green, light or dark or kinda light or kinda dark, means an untouched kilometer. Also, what does black mean? Then I checked an area I edited extensively: Chinle, Arizona. Again, I was puzzled because I have worked on most of the area, but some is dark green, some light green and some black. However, the basic idea seems great. It just needs a little more interpretation, I think, and maybe different colors? Best, Charlotte List-Help: mailto:talk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=help List-Subscribe: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us, mailto:talk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=subscribe Nice. Suggestions; - kill water somehow - Information density at low zoom levels implies that basically everywhere is green. But you zoom to the bay area and see this isn't the case. So, change the coloring? Modulate it by population density? Steve On Dec 16, 2012, at 8:32 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: OK this is plain awesome. Great work Mike. One note of caution though - the title may suggest that you can just go ahead and import away, but folks would still have to follow the import guidelines and contact the OSM community at large, come up with a solid proposal and discuss that, even if there is no local community. I know it says it on the tin, but it's kind of tucked away at the bottom. Have you looked into full history planet parsing to get a fuller picture of editing history? I took a stab at full history user metrics some time ago using osmjs; https://github.com/mvexel/OSMQualityMetrics/blob/master/UserStats.js - this produces one set of metrics for the entire .osh file you feed it but it may prove useful for future work. I haven't touched this in a while but it should still work :/ On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Michal Migurski m...@teczno.com wrote: I pulled together some of the notes and imagery I've been posting here recently: http://www.openstreetmap.us/~migurski/green-means-go/ It's a map of 1km×1km squares covering the continental United States. Green squares show places where data imports are unlikely to interfere with community mapping. Raw data is linked at the bottom. Three things that would make this better: - Regular updates with archived older versions. - Renders for specific counties, intended for local GIS communities. - Some awareness of full planet history. The OSM-US server has data for regular updates. -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
[Talk-us] King County Address Imports
Now that King County, WA has given us access to use their GIS data as Jeff Meyer reported, I have converted their address data for the entire county into smaller blocks. These are available on my Dropbox account if anyone would like to review the data. Just send me an email with your request. The data is broken up by city and in Seattle, the data is further broken up by neighborhood. The unincorporated areas are in one file. The following tags are populated for each address - addr:city (except for unincorporated areas) - addr:housenumber - addr:postcode (zip5) - addr:street (fully expanded) - source = King County GIS We are not ready to start the import process at this time. Final process steps and training on how to properly import using JOSM are key steps we expect to complete shortly. -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] King County Address Imports
I'd like a look at the unincorporated data, which is where I live :-) Steve On Dec 17, 2012, at 1:04 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: Now that King County, WA has given us access to use their GIS data as Jeff Meyer reported, I have converted their address data for the entire county into smaller blocks. These are available on my Dropbox account if anyone would like to review the data. Just send me an email with your request. The data is broken up by city and in Seattle, the data is further broken up by neighborhood. The unincorporated areas are in one file. The following tags are populated for each address addr:city (except for unincorporated areas) addr:housenumber addr:postcode (zip5) addr:street (fully expanded) source = King County GIS We are not ready to start the import process at this time. Final process steps and training on how to properly import using JOSM are key steps we expect to complete shortly. -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import
On Dec 17, 2012, at 1:01 PM, Charlotte Wolter wrote: Hi Mike, I was looking at the web page yu created. One problem is that I'm not sure which green, light or dark or kinda light or kinda dark, means an untouched kilometer. Also, what does black mean? Then I checked an area I edited extensively: Chinle, Arizona. Again, I was puzzled because I have worked on most of the area, but some is dark green, some light green and some black. However, the basic idea seems great. It just needs a little more interpretation, I think, and maybe different colors? Green generally means untouched, based the user IDs attached to ways. I think I'm undercounting participation from people who edited nodes whose changes don't show up in the line table. -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US
Hi, On 17.12.2012 19:55, Kai Krueger wrote: it is great to see if technically capable people deeply routed in the community take charge of the import process to ensure that they are done to the highest technical standard That is one thing. Another thing that will usually distinguish an acceptable import from those, quote we have unfortunately seen so often in the past. is also the relationship of the person doing the import with the land. You will get better results if someone imports his own city quarter than if you allow him to import a whole county he's never set foot in, for two reasons - (a) he's familiar with what he's importing and has a better chance to spot problems; (b) he's more likely to actually care for what he's importing. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Tribal boundaries
How do we handle tribal administrative boundaries? This is kind of a big one for the US, Canada and Australia.. On Dec 17, 2012 2:51 PM, Charlotte Wolter techl...@techlady.com wrote: Serge, ****This is a good idea. ****I have a large file of data from the Acoma tribe, but my efforts to negotiate the import wiki have been fruitless. I can't made heads or tails of it. ****Further, I don't know if it's the kind of data we want (though they say it is public domain and gave permission in writing). It is road center lines for the whole reservation. I remember a remark somewhere in this forum that center lines are not the best data. At any rate, I'm not a good judge of whether or not it is what we want. ****In addition, I've already done work on the main roads, though often I'm lacking a name or number. ****And, I don't have tools to exmine a data file to see if it is congruent with what OSM can use. ****So, for many reasons, having a knowledgeable group take this on seems to me like a great idea. Best, Charlotte At 06:42 AM 12/17/2012, you wrote: Folks, I know what it's like to be excited about OSM, and I know what it's like to be frustrated with OSM, struggling with low data quality, or lack of data altogether. And then you get access to a large dataset, and you know that having it in OSM would improve things. It would improve the quality, and maybe even get people mapping. At the same time, I think many of you have seen the damage that bad imports can do. The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by the import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are frstrated by the import process. So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide imports and large edits. This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data, and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback. When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one of the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's finally the amount of data and interest to justify it. What do folks think? - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ** ** Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techl...@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady *The Four Internet Freedoms* Freedom to visit any site on the Internet Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would affect the first three freedoms. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import
On Dec 17, 2012, at 12:50 PM, Steve Coast wrote: On Dec 17, 2012, at 12:45 PM, Michal Migurski m...@teczno.com wrote: Information density: maybe a different grid for lower zoom levels, e.g. 5km, 10km, etc.? It would have the opposite effect of what's there now I think, which is look at all that green! I prefer modulating by population, since a sea of green in Wyoming (with apologies to those in Wyoming) really doesn't matter since nobody lives there. The question is, where is the population / edits ration low, not the absolute edits numbers. Maybe ask people from CloudMade what they did 3 years ago. Also, I wouldn't ask the question(s) in a vacuum. I suspect, but cannot confirm, that if you did a similar analysis of NT or TA data in the US you'd see exactly the same thing; a natural economic bias in the metrics to mapping places with high population density. I suspect the same, it makes sense given driving patterns and economic demand. -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US
The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by the import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are frstrated by the import process. [import/mechanical-edit committee proposal] I agree with your broad sentiments. Having observed some recent discussion, I think we have two fundamental problems: 1) the import guidelines don't adequately describe what is actually expected (reasonably so) by the more experienced people 2) people who want to import are very enthusiastic and often do not fully appreciate the difficulty of doing it right and the benefits of review and care, and aech new would-be importer needs to have the norms communicated to them I have a concern that while there is wide agreement that imports must be careful, there is also a view (which I perceive to be a minority view) that all imports are harmful. For the committee and import with care effort to be socially successful, I think it has to be separated from the do not import at all view. I think your note expresses that separation (or rather, only expresses the view that imports must be done with care, and I am speculating that you did that on purpose), but I wanted to mention this explicitly. I realize my proposals below may come across as strict, but I am actually in favor of careful imports of high-quality data, when done by people with a sense of stewardship for the affected area. (I'm in Massachusetts, and most of the MassGIS data is very high quality, so that's my implicit reference point.) So I am not trying to stop imports; rather, I think that with more care and especially more delays for review, we'll get a better outcome in terms of the ratio of map utiltity to total volunteer time. My thinking is heavily influenced by the experience of leading a ~20-person software team, with a loose analogy of preparing changes on branches and then merging to master with approval. I know imported data isn't software, but in terms of preparing bits and then changing the shared code/data base, I think it's quite analagous. Overall I suggest three concrete steps: 1) document the actual expectations on the wiki. Specifically a) The conversion process has to be described well enough to be considered High Level Design from a software viewpoint so that someone else could write the conversion scripts. This should address datum/projection issues. Most importantly, it should address how the import avoids new data that conflicts with old data. The plan should describe which tools will be used to put the data in the main database b) The actual data to be uploaded (with all pre-upload cleanup actually done, not the notion that each file will get manual cleanup before uploading) has to be posted for review. c) No data can be uploaded until the per-import page has met the standards, and the scripts and converted data that will be uploaded has been published, and there's been a 14 day review period, which is reset by any substantive change in the page or any change in the script or data. d) (probably) the data should be uploaded to some test server (assuming there is one) so that people can see what happens in the database and with rendering. Each person doing uploads should be expected to do the test server upload. e) Once the two weeks have passed, and there is rough consensus that the plan and data are adequate, a small amount of data (but bigger than can be examined 100% by hand) can be uploaded. The idea is to have something that is not that big in case there is trouble, but for which the process will be representative of the rest. An example would be a single town in Massachusetts, with thousands of buildings or address points or hundreds of roads. f) After the initial small upload, there is another 14 day review period, during which people can find issues with the data. If there are significant issues, the proposal, script and data should be fixed, and the 14-day review period in step c starts anew 2) Add the notion that when people talk about imports, the committee contacts them privately and makes sure they really understand point 1. Probably also a public note in response, briefer. Someone from the committee should stay in touch about judging when the consensus in (e) has happened. Overall, aside from documenting the norms, I see this as the main job of the committee. 3) For areas where it makes sense, consider sending private messages via the web site to registered active mappers in the area. For example, if after the MassGIS buildings import entered the 14-day review period (where all concerns had been met), it might make sense to message every Mass mapper who has edited in the last 90 days and point out the wiki page and that it's being discussed on
Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US
Hi, There are some technical issues that make imports more complicated than needed. First is the entire user account thing. I don't understand why it is needed. If something gets screwed up, either way, we are reverting the change set. Besides discouraging people form the import, I don't know we benefit it brings. It is like a residual limb that we needed before we had change sets, but keep seem to bring ourselves to let it go. The second technical issue that the apparent JOSM will upload a large change set that can't be easily reverted. It would be good, if ether JOSM would chop up large changes below the actual change set limit, or the 50K limit eliminated on the server side. Not being able to revert something in JOSM is a big issue. We can't be all relaxed about things if we can't do reverts. Some people think all imports are are bad, some are just worried they will be screwed up, in either case the result is the same, a hostile mob waiting for you on lists. This has the effect of driving most of the constructive import discussion off list. For my import, 80% of the useful feedback was off list in private emails because people don't want to deal with the rude behavior in the list. I made a bunch of decisions that might seem weird to people that just follow the list. But I assure you that I cared a whole lot what the 4 people who signed up actually help thought about all of the issues. For example, I was upset/surprised today that Greg said we went too fast. I had to weight peoples opinions on the list much lower because they don't have any skin in the game (not helping do the work, not from MA, they have an agenda contrary to the project goal, and they are not in the loop). Regardless, this is not that much fun, why go through this. If you setup a user group to help with the imports, I think it will be overrun with people that don't like all imports or are terrified of them being screwed up. It will be like the UN human rights committee. More hostility, but now with an official sounding group name. In a sane world, there would be mappers that would be dedicated to imports. They would build up expertise in licensing, data conversion, batch imports, large scale reverts, OSM processes, merging, efficiently communicating with locals, etc. However, if you came out and said I do only imports, you would be getting hazed by the two groups of people all of the time. Does not sound like fun to me. This is my most important point. The map in US is not mature. We need people right now more than we need a good map. I would accept a screwed map of MA in the short term in return for 20 new dedicated MA mappers. We should be optimizing everything we do to get more help, and if the map needs to get screwed up occasionally to accomplish that I am 110% OK with that tradeoff. This project is not going to take in the US without a ton more mappers. The population of MA, is 6.5 million people. My little tiny itty bitty state is larger than Denmark, Slovakia, Finland, Ireland, Lithuania, Latvia, ,etc, etc. I am not sure we even have 25 active mappers in the state. Until the people that are still angry about the tiger import from 5 years ago let it go, and the people that are scared of screw ups, decided that right now, building the community is more important than the map, nothing is going to change. I think we are likely stuck in this rut for a long while. I might as well be wishing for world peace. Jason. On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Alex Barth a...@mapbox.com wrote: Two more quesions just came to my mind: - Are there any volunteers who would love to run with guiding imports better? - Would also love to learn Jason Remillard's perspective of what could be done better given that he's in the middle of working on the MassGIS building import :) On Dec 17, 2012, at 9:42 AM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: Folks, I know what it's like to be excited about OSM, and I know what it's like to be frustrated with OSM, struggling with low data quality, or lack of data altogether. And then you get access to a large dataset, and you know that having it in OSM would improve things. It would improve the quality, and maybe even get people mapping. At the same time, I think many of you have seen the damage that bad imports can do. The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by the import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are frstrated by the import process. So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide imports and large edits. This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data, and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback. When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one of the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's finally the amount of data and interest to justify it. What do folks think? - Serge
Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Jason Remillard remillard.ja...@gmail.com wrote: If you setup a user group to help with the imports, I think it will be overrun with people that don't like all imports or are terrified of them being screwed up. I haven't received any negative feedback about this committe except for yours, so I think maybe your judgement's a bit premature. It will be like the UN human rights committee. More hostility, but now with an official sounding group name. In a sane world, there would be mappers that would be dedicated to imports. You seem to have your mind made up about a group that hasn't had its first meeting. They would build up expertise in licensing, data conversion, batch imports, large scale reverts, OSM processes, merging, efficiently communicating with locals, etc. However, if you came out and said I do only imports, you would be getting hazed by the two groups of people all of the time. Does not sound like fun to me. Only do things you enjoy, so if it doesn't sound like fun to you, then I say don't join. - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Imports and Large Edit Committee Meeting 12/20
Hi all, During the OSM US Board meeting today, we discussed the new Import and Large Edit Committee. We will have it on 12/20 at 8:30pm EST on a Google Hangout, which is a format that's worked well in the past. If you're like to join the Hangout, please drop me a line. Or if you'd like to join, and Google+ is a problem, please drop me a line. Thanks, - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Tribal boundaries
You might check out nationalatlas.gov/maplayers.html?openChapters=chpbound#chpbound for boundaries. They have Indian Lands listed. The data should be Public Domain. The layer shows areas of 640 acres or larger administered by the Bureau of Indian Affairs. On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 4:33 PM, Charlotte Wolter techl...@techlady.comwrote: Paul, ****Golly, I have no idea. ****I would think that the Bureau of Indian Affairs might be a good source. ****I just took a quick look at the boundary between national forest and the Navajo Reservation east of Flagstaff. Though the national forest is green under the View tab, no boundary shows up under the Edit tab. I have no idea why that is. ****Do you have any suggestions? At 03:57 PM 12/17/2012, you wrote: How do we handle tribal administrative boundaries? This is kind of a big one for the US, Canada and Australia.. On Dec 17, 2012 2:51 PM, Charlotte Wolter techl...@techlady.com wrote: Serge, This is a good idea. I have a large file of data from the Acoma tribe, but my efforts to negotiate the import wiki have been fruitless. I can't made heads or tails of it. Further, I don't know if it's the kind of data we want (though they say it is public domain and gave permission in writing). It is road center lines for the whole reservation. I remember a remark somewhere in this forum that center lines are not the best data. At any rate, I'm not a good judge of whether or not it is what we want. In addition, I've already done work on the main roads, though often I'm lacking a name or number. And, I don't have tools to exmine a data file to see if it is congruent with what OSM can use. So, for many reasons, having a knowledgeable group take this on seems to me like a great idea. Best, Charlotte At 06:42 AM 12/17/2012, you wrote: Folks, I know what it's like to be excited about OSM, and I know what it's like to be frustrated with OSM, struggling with low data quality, or lack of data altogether. And then you get access to a large dataset, and you know that having it in OSM would improve things. It would improve the quality, and maybe even get people mapping. At the same time, I think many of you have seen the damage that bad imports can do. The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by the import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are frstrated by the import process. So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide imports and large edits. This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data, and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback. When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one of the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's finally the amount of data and interest to justify it. What do folks think? - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techl...@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady The Four Internet Freedoms Freedom to visit any site on the Internet Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would affect the first three freedoms. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ** ** Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techl...@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady *The Four Internet Freedoms* Freedom to visit any site on the Internet Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would affect the first three freedoms. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Tribal boundaries
Indeed, I think it's long overdue that we revisit the issue, though I would
propose that we find a way to make this fit into the existing
administrative boundary structure we use for other, similar administrative
regions, such as cities, counties, states and countries.
Essentially, the reason I really don't like the aboriginal lands tag is two
pronged:
Various degree of tribal control is glossed over. My major beef with this
gross oversimplification is that tagging tribal areas the same way we would
a curiosity of nature trivializes and misrepresents what is much more
significantly an administrative boundary of variable significance. You
have everything from small, relatively subjugated nations that have roughly
the same status as an incorporated town all the way up to tribes that have
their own customs checkpoints with the surrounding region, and everything
in between. Ramifications of entering or leaving such a region is much
closer to that of crossing any other political boundary than it is crossing
a land management boundary (like a National Forest or State Park).
We're talking about people and authority, not land and resource management,
for the most part. What makes American and Australian aboriginals so
special that they get a rather dismissive tagging scheme, whereas North
Ireland, Wales and Scotland don't?
On Monday, December 17, 2012, Mikel Maron wrote:
This is what I've found in the Wiki. An old recommendation and discussion,
but useful re-starting point
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Daboriginal_lands
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
--
*From:* Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'ba...@ursamundi.org');
*To:* OpenStreetMap talk-us list talk-us@openstreetmap.orgjavascript:_e({},
'cvml', 'talk-us@openstreetmap.org');
*Sent:* Monday, December 17, 2012 6:57 PM
*Subject:* [Talk-us] Tribal boundaries
How do we handle tribal administrative boundaries? This is kind of a big
one for the US, Canada and Australia..
On Dec 17, 2012 2:51 PM, Charlotte Wolter
techl...@techlady.comjavascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'techl...@techlady.com');
wrote:
Serge,
****This is a good idea.
****I have a large file of data from the Acoma tribe, but my
efforts to negotiate the import wiki have been fruitless. I can't made
heads or tails of it.
****Further, I don't know if it's the kind of data we want
(though they say it is public domain and gave permission in writing). It is
road center lines for the whole reservation. I remember a remark somewhere
in this forum that center lines are not the best data. At any rate, I'm not
a good judge of whether or not it is what we want.
****In addition, I've already done work on the main roads, though
often I'm lacking a name or number.
****And, I don't have tools to exmine a data file to see if it is
congruent with what OSM can use.
****So, for many reasons, having a knowledgeable group take this
on seems to me like a great idea.
Best,
Charlotte
At 06:42 AM 12/17/2012, you wrote:
Folks,
I know what it's like to be excited about OSM, and I know what it's
like to be frustrated with OSM, struggling with low data quality, or
lack of data altogether.
And then you get access to a large dataset, and you know that having
it in OSM would improve things. It would improve the quality, and
maybe even get people mapping. At the same time, I think many of you
have seen the damage that bad imports can do.
The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by the
import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are frstrated
by the import process.
So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide
imports and large edits.
This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data,
and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback.
When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one of
the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's
finally the amount of data and interest to justify it.
What do folks think?
- Serge
___
Talk-us mailing list
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'Talk-us@openstreetmap.org');
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
**
** Charlotte Wolter
927 18th Street Suite A
Santa Monica, California
90403
+1-310-597-4040
techl...@techlady.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'techl...@techlady.com');
Skype: thetechlady
*The Four Internet Freedoms*
Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would
affect the first three freedoms.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Re: [Talk-us] Tribal boundaries
Not having the bandwidth to give it a proper examination at the moment, I would expect, based on description, that this would be a map of lands held in trust for various tribes (that which are the subject of the recent Cobell vs United States case) as opposed to national boundaries of tribes as they currently exist. On Monday, December 17, 2012, Clifford Snow wrote: You might check out nationalatlas.gov/maplayers.html?openChapters=chpbound#chpbound for boundaries. They have Indian Lands listed. The data should be Public Domain. The layer shows areas of 640 acres or larger administered by the Bureau of Indian Affairs. On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 4:33 PM, Charlotte Wolter techl...@techlady.comwrote: Paul, ****Golly, I have no idea. ****I would think that the Bureau of Indian Affairs might be a good source. ****I just took a quick look at the boundary between national forest and the Navajo Reservation east of Flagstaff. Though the national forest is green under the View tab, no boundary shows up under the Edit tab. I have no idea why that is. ****Do you have any suggestions? At 03:57 PM 12/17/2012, you wrote: How do we handle tribal administrative boundaries? This is kind of a big one for the US, Canada and Australia.. On Dec 17, 2012 2:51 PM, Charlotte Wolter techl...@techlady.com wrote: Serge, This is a good idea. I have a large file of data from the Acoma tribe, but my efforts to negotiate the import wiki have been fruitless. I can't made heads or tails of it. Further, I don't know if it's the kind of data we want (though they say it is public domain and gave permission in writing). It is road center lines for the whole reservation. I remember a remark somewhere in this forum that center lines are not the best data. At any rate, I'm not a good judge of whether or not it is what we want. In addition, I've already done work on the main roads, though often I'm lacking a name or number. And, I don't have tools to exmine a data file to see if it is congruent with what OSM can use. So, for many reasons, having a knowledgeable group take this on seems to me like a great idea. Best, Charlotte At 06:42 AM 12/17/2012, you wrote: Folks, I know what it's like to be excited about OSM, and I know what it's like to be frustrated with OSM, struggling with low data quality, or lack of data altogether. And then you get access to a large dataset, and you know that having it in OSM would improve things. It would improve the quality, and maybe even get people mapping. At the same time, I think many of you have seen the damage that bad imports can do. The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by the import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are frstrated by the import process. So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide imports and large edits. This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data, and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback. When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one of the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's finally the amount of data and interest to justify it. What do folks think? - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techl...@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady The Four Internet Freedoms Freedom to visit any site on the Internet Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would affect the first three freedoms. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US
Hi Serge, You are tougher man than me :-) How about this, nobody on the committee that has not personally done at least 1 large import. If you do that, I am happy. Like I said, these imports require a bunch of specialized skills, it would be good to build up an expertise in it. Thanks Jason. On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Jason Remillard remillard.ja...@gmail.com wrote: If you setup a user group to help with the imports, I think it will be overrun with people that don't like all imports or are terrified of them being screwed up. I haven't received any negative feedback about this committe except for yours, so I think maybe your judgement's a bit premature. It will be like the UN human rights committee. More hostility, but now with an official sounding group name. In a sane world, there would be mappers that would be dedicated to imports. You seem to have your mind made up about a group that hasn't had its first meeting. They would build up expertise in licensing, data conversion, batch imports, large scale reverts, OSM processes, merging, efficiently communicating with locals, etc. However, if you came out and said I do only imports, you would be getting hazed by the two groups of people all of the time. Does not sound like fun to me. Only do things you enjoy, so if it doesn't sound like fun to you, then I say don't join. - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US
Hi Serge , I am sorry for being negative. I am feeling grumpy from the building import ruckus, I probably just need to take break from this for bit. The US import process is clearly borked right now, and I will support 110% you and anybody that is trying to fix it. Please ignore my snarky email(s) and accept my apologies. Thanks Jason. On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 10:07 PM, Jason Remillard remillard.ja...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Serge, You are tougher man than me :-) How about this, nobody on the committee that has not personally done at least 1 large import. If you do that, I am happy. Like I said, these imports require a bunch of specialized skills, it would be good to build up an expertise in it. Thanks Jason. On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Jason Remillard remillard.ja...@gmail.com wrote: If you setup a user group to help with the imports, I think it will be overrun with people that don't like all imports or are terrified of them being screwed up. I haven't received any negative feedback about this committe except for yours, so I think maybe your judgement's a bit premature. It will be like the UN human rights committee. More hostility, but now with an official sounding group name. In a sane world, there would be mappers that would be dedicated to imports. You seem to have your mind made up about a group that hasn't had its first meeting. They would build up expertise in licensing, data conversion, batch imports, large scale reverts, OSM processes, merging, efficiently communicating with locals, etc. However, if you came out and said I do only imports, you would be getting hazed by the two groups of people all of the time. Does not sound like fun to me. Only do things you enjoy, so if it doesn't sound like fun to you, then I say don't join. - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US
Jason - Would you be interested in joining the import / large edit committee? Given how you just went through a pretty ad-hoc import process it would be great to have your concrete input. I'm seeing this committee as preliminary and exploratory. We don't have the answers yet. I'd love the committee to be constructive, forward looking and iterative. It ideally focuses in a first phase on aiding imports that are in the planning phase (would not include the ongoing MassGIS work) while parallelly building up solid guidelines for the US community and a plan to make this work sustainable. On Dec 17, 2012, at 10:30 PM, Jason Remillard remillard.ja...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Serge , I am sorry for being negative. I am feeling grumpy from the building import ruckus, I probably just need to take break from this for bit. The US import process is clearly borked right now, and I will support 110% you and anybody that is trying to fix it. Please ignore my snarky email(s) and accept my apologies. Thanks Jason. On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 10:07 PM, Jason Remillard remillard.ja...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Serge, You are tougher man than me :-) How about this, nobody on the committee that has not personally done at least 1 large import. If you do that, I am happy. Like I said, these imports require a bunch of specialized skills, it would be good to build up an expertise in it. Thanks Jason. On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Jason Remillard remillard.ja...@gmail.com wrote: If you setup a user group to help with the imports, I think it will be overrun with people that don't like all imports or are terrified of them being screwed up. I haven't received any negative feedback about this committe except for yours, so I think maybe your judgement's a bit premature. It will be like the UN human rights committee. More hostility, but now with an official sounding group name. In a sane world, there would be mappers that would be dedicated to imports. You seem to have your mind made up about a group that hasn't had its first meeting. They would build up expertise in licensing, data conversion, batch imports, large scale reverts, OSM processes, merging, efficiently communicating with locals, etc. However, if you came out and said I do only imports, you would be getting hazed by the two groups of people all of the time. Does not sound like fun to me. Only do things you enjoy, so if it doesn't sound like fun to you, then I say don't join. - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Alex Barth http://twitter.com/lxbarth tel (+1) 202 250 3633 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Discussion culture Re: Imports and Mass Edits in the US
On Dec 17, 2012, at 9:15 PM, Jason Remillard remillard.ja...@gmail.com wrote: For my import, 80% of the useful feedback was off list in private emails because people don't want to deal with the rude behavior in the list. I made a bunch of decisions that might seem weird to people that just follow the list. But I assure you that I cared a whole lot what the 4 people who signed up actually help thought about all of the issues. This I find very interesting. To some extent it reflects my first impressions with OSM mailing lists. I know many people who are too daunted to subscribe, I find that is a shame. If it wasn't for friends in the offline world who got me started on OSM, I would have been way too intimidated by the lists to just jump in. Why is this? What can we improve? Alex Barth http://twitter.com/lxbarth tel (+1) 202 250 3633 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Discussion culture Re: Imports and Mass Edits in the US
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 10:19 PM, Alex Barth a...@mapbox.com wrote: On Dec 17, 2012, at 9:15 PM, Jason Remillard remillard.ja...@gmail.com wrote: For my import, 80% of the useful feedback was off list in private emails because people don't want to deal with the rude behavior in the list. I made a bunch of decisions that might seem weird to people that just follow the list. But I assure you that I cared a whole lot what the 4 people who signed up actually help thought about all of the issues. This I find very interesting. To some extent it reflects my first impressions with OSM mailing lists. I know many people who are too daunted to subscribe, I find that is a shame. If it wasn't for friends in the offline world who got me started on OSM, I would have been way too intimidated by the lists to just jump in. Why is this? What can we improve? OSM is complex and the people willing to stick around long enough to know it are usually intimidating to the people who are new and uncertain about it. This imbalance is particularly strong on the mailing lists because it's so easy for a response to come off in the wrong way or for a huge number of people to respond in a flurry of OMG don't import that! Also, the asynchronous nature of the mailing list means pointless arguments are very easy to start and very hard to finish. I would much rather see people conversing in real time on IRC/phone/hangout where you're more immediately accountable for what you say or asking questions via the forums where it's a bit easier for threads to stay on topic. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Discussion culture Re: Imports and Mass Edits in the US
I agree with Ian's points, but we shouldn't give up on email. I fear that for many potential mappers newcomers, even IRC might be daunting. (*ducks* while people say, If you can't do IRC, you shouldn't be allowed to edit a map...) Phone and hangouts require greater than your average amount of coordination than might be required for casual questions. Forums are probably better for async communications, but email is the most proximate client for most people. Community is often cited as one of the primary goals of OSM. If we want to make it a community that's appealing for others to join, every community media - IRC, forums, email, phones, hangouts, meetups, etc. - should all be friendly. My suggestion? Follow the immortal words of Dalton from Road House, Be nice. There's no reason email can't be a friendlier environment. And, when people aren't being nice, they should be called out as exhibiting unacceptable behavior. A corollary of Ian's comments about the strengths of IRC, etc. is that people are unfriendlier on email because they can be. Unless we don't allow it. On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 10:19 PM, Alex Barth a...@mapbox.com wrote: On Dec 17, 2012, at 9:15 PM, Jason Remillard remillard.ja...@gmail.com wrote: For my import, 80% of the useful feedback was off list in private emails because people don't want to deal with the rude behavior in the list. I made a bunch of decisions that might seem weird to people that just follow the list. But I assure you that I cared a whole lot what the 4 people who signed up actually help thought about all of the issues. This I find very interesting. To some extent it reflects my first impressions with OSM mailing lists. I know many people who are too daunted to subscribe, I find that is a shame. If it wasn't for friends in the offline world who got me started on OSM, I would have been way too intimidated by the lists to just jump in. Why is this? What can we improve? OSM is complex and the people willing to stick around long enough to know it are usually intimidating to the people who are new and uncertain about it. This imbalance is particularly strong on the mailing lists because it's so easy for a response to come off in the wrong way or for a huge number of people to respond in a flurry of OMG don't import that! Also, the asynchronous nature of the mailing list means pointless arguments are very easy to start and very hard to finish. I would much rather see people conversing in real time on IRC/phone/hangout where you're more immediately accountable for what you say or asking questions via the forums where it's a bit easier for threads to stay on topic. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Jeff Meyer Global World History Atlas www.gwhat.org j...@gwhat.org 206-676-2347 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
