Re: [Talk-us] Discussion culture Re: Imports and Mass Edits in the US

2012-12-17 Thread Jeff Meyer
I agree with Ian's points, but we shouldn't give up on email.

I fear that for many potential mappers & newcomers, even IRC might be
daunting. (*ducks* while people say, "If you can't do IRC, you shouldn't be
allowed to edit a map...")

Phone and hangouts require greater than your average amount of coordination
than might be required for casual questions. Forums are probably better for
async communications, but email is the most proximate client for most
people.

Community is often cited as one of the primary goals of OSM. If we want to
make it a community that's appealing for others to join, every community
media - IRC, forums, email, phones, hangouts, meetups, etc. - should all be
friendly.

My suggestion? Follow the immortal words of Dalton from "Road House," "Be
nice." There's no reason email can't be a friendlier environment.

And, when people aren't being nice, they should be called out as exhibiting
unacceptable behavior. A corollary of Ian's comments about the strengths of
IRC, etc. is that people are unfriendlier on email because they can be.
Unless we don't allow it.


On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Ian Dees  wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 10:19 PM, Alex Barth  wrote:
>
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2012, at 9:15 PM, Jason Remillard 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > For my import, 80% of the
>> > useful feedback was off list in private emails because people don't
>> > want to deal with the rude behavior in the list. I made a bunch of
>> > decisions that might seem weird to people that just follow the list.
>> > But I assure you that I cared a whole lot what the 4 people who signed
>> > up actually help thought about all of the issues.
>>
>> This I find very interesting. To some extent it reflects my first
>> impressions with OSM mailing lists. I know many people who are too daunted
>> to subscribe, I find that is a shame. If it wasn't for friends in the
>> offline world who got me started on OSM, I would have been way too
>> intimidated by the lists to just jump in. Why is this? What can we improve?
>
>
> OSM is complex and the people willing to stick around long enough to know
> it are usually intimidating to the people who are new and uncertain about
> it. This imbalance is particularly strong on the mailing lists because it's
> so easy for a response to come off in the wrong way or for a huge number of
> people to respond in a flurry of "OMG don't import that!" Also, the
> asynchronous nature of the mailing list means pointless arguments are very
> easy to start and very hard to finish.
>
> I would much rather see people conversing in real time on
> IRC/phone/hangout where you're more immediately accountable for what you
> say or asking questions via the forums where it's a bit easier for threads
> to stay on topic.
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
>


-- 
Jeff Meyer
Global World History Atlas
www.gwhat.org
j...@gwhat.org
206-676-2347
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Discussion culture Re: Imports and Mass Edits in the US

2012-12-17 Thread Ian Dees
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 10:19 PM, Alex Barth  wrote:

>
> On Dec 17, 2012, at 9:15 PM, Jason Remillard 
> wrote:
>
> > For my import, 80% of the
> > useful feedback was off list in private emails because people don't
> > want to deal with the rude behavior in the list. I made a bunch of
> > decisions that might seem weird to people that just follow the list.
> > But I assure you that I cared a whole lot what the 4 people who signed
> > up actually help thought about all of the issues.
>
> This I find very interesting. To some extent it reflects my first
> impressions with OSM mailing lists. I know many people who are too daunted
> to subscribe, I find that is a shame. If it wasn't for friends in the
> offline world who got me started on OSM, I would have been way too
> intimidated by the lists to just jump in. Why is this? What can we improve?


OSM is complex and the people willing to stick around long enough to know
it are usually intimidating to the people who are new and uncertain about
it. This imbalance is particularly strong on the mailing lists because it's
so easy for a response to come off in the wrong way or for a huge number of
people to respond in a flurry of "OMG don't import that!" Also, the
asynchronous nature of the mailing list means pointless arguments are very
easy to start and very hard to finish.

I would much rather see people conversing in real time on IRC/phone/hangout
where you're more immediately accountable for what you say or asking
questions via the forums where it's a bit easier for threads to stay on
topic.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


[Talk-us] Discussion culture Re: Imports and Mass Edits in the US

2012-12-17 Thread Alex Barth

On Dec 17, 2012, at 9:15 PM, Jason Remillard  wrote:

> For my import, 80% of the
> useful feedback was off list in private emails because people don't
> want to deal with the rude behavior in the list. I made a bunch of
> decisions that might seem weird to people that just follow the list.
> But I assure you that I cared a whole lot what the 4 people who signed
> up actually help thought about all of the issues. 

This I find very interesting. To some extent it reflects my first impressions 
with OSM mailing lists. I know many people who are too daunted to subscribe, I 
find that is a shame. If it wasn't for friends in the offline world who got me 
started on OSM, I would have been way too intimidated by the lists to just jump 
in. Why is this? What can we improve?

Alex Barth
http://twitter.com/lxbarth
tel (+1) 202 250 3633





___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US

2012-12-17 Thread Alex Barth

Jason -

Would you be interested in joining the import / large edit committee? Given how 
you just went through a pretty ad-hoc import process it would be great to have 
your concrete input.

I'm seeing this committee as preliminary and exploratory. We don't have the 
answers yet. I'd love the committee to be constructive, forward looking and 
iterative. It ideally focuses in a first phase on aiding imports that are in 
the planning phase (would not include the ongoing MassGIS work) while 
parallelly building up solid guidelines for the US community and a plan to make 
this work sustainable.
 
On Dec 17, 2012, at 10:30 PM, Jason Remillard  wrote:

> Hi Serge ,
> 
> I am sorry for being negative. I am feeling grumpy from the building
> import ruckus, I probably just need to take break from this for bit.
> The US import process is clearly borked right now, and I will support
> 110% you and anybody that is trying to fix it.  Please ignore my
> snarky email(s) and accept my apologies.
> 
> Thanks
> Jason.
> 
> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 10:07 PM, Jason Remillard
>  wrote:
>> Hi Serge,
>> 
>> You are tougher man than me :-)
>> 
>> How about this, nobody on the committee that has not personally done
>> at least 1 large import. If you do that, I am happy. Like I said,
>> these imports require a bunch of specialized skills, it would be good
>> to build up an expertise in it.
>> 
>> Thanks
>> Jason.
>> 
>> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Serge Wroclawski  wrote:
>>> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Jason Remillard
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
 If you setup a user group to "help" with the imports, I think it will
 be overrun with people that don't like all imports or are terrified of
 them being screwed up.
>>> 
>>> I haven't received any negative feedback about this committe except
>>> for yours, so I think maybe your judgement's a bit premature.
>>> 
 It will be like the UN human rights committee.
 More hostility, but now with an official sounding group name. In a
 sane world, there would be mappers that would be dedicated to imports.
>>> 
>>> You seem to have your mind made up about a group that hasn't had its
>>> first meeting.
>>> 
 They would build up expertise in licensing, data conversion, batch
 imports, large scale reverts, OSM processes, merging, efficiently
 communicating with locals, etc. However, if you came out and said "I
 do only imports", you would be getting hazed by the two groups of
 people all of the time. Does not sound like fun to me.
>>> 
>>> Only do things you enjoy, so if it doesn't sound like fun to you, then
>>> I say don't join.
>>> 
>>> - Serge
> 
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Alex Barth
http://twitter.com/lxbarth
tel (+1) 202 250 3633





___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US

2012-12-17 Thread Jason Remillard
Hi Serge ,

I am sorry for being negative. I am feeling grumpy from the building
import ruckus, I probably just need to take break from this for bit.
The US import process is clearly borked right now, and I will support
110% you and anybody that is trying to fix it.  Please ignore my
snarky email(s) and accept my apologies.

Thanks
Jason.

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 10:07 PM, Jason Remillard
 wrote:
> Hi Serge,
>
> You are tougher man than me :-)
>
> How about this, nobody on the committee that has not personally done
> at least 1 large import. If you do that, I am happy. Like I said,
> these imports require a bunch of specialized skills, it would be good
> to build up an expertise in it.
>
> Thanks
> Jason.
>
> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Serge Wroclawski  wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Jason Remillard
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> If you setup a user group to "help" with the imports, I think it will
>>> be overrun with people that don't like all imports or are terrified of
>>> them being screwed up.
>>
>> I haven't received any negative feedback about this committe except
>> for yours, so I think maybe your judgement's a bit premature.
>>
>>> It will be like the UN human rights committee.
>>> More hostility, but now with an official sounding group name. In a
>>> sane world, there would be mappers that would be dedicated to imports.
>>
>> You seem to have your mind made up about a group that hasn't had its
>> first meeting.
>>
>>> They would build up expertise in licensing, data conversion, batch
>>> imports, large scale reverts, OSM processes, merging, efficiently
>>> communicating with locals, etc. However, if you came out and said "I
>>> do only imports", you would be getting hazed by the two groups of
>>> people all of the time. Does not sound like fun to me.
>>
>> Only do things you enjoy, so if it doesn't sound like fun to you, then
>> I say don't join.
>>
>> - Serge

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Tribal boundaries

2012-12-17 Thread Paul Johnson
Not having the bandwidth to give it a proper examination at the moment, I
would expect, based on description, that this would be a map of lands held
in trust for various tribes (that which are the subject of the recent
Cobell vs United States case) as opposed to national boundaries of tribes
as they currently exist.

On Monday, December 17, 2012, Clifford Snow wrote:

> You might check out
> nationalatlas.gov/maplayers.html?openChapters=chpbound#chpbound for
> boundaries. They have Indian Lands listed.  The data should be Public
> Domain. The layer shows areas of 640 acres or larger administered by the
> Bureau of Indian Affairs.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 4:33 PM, Charlotte Wolter 
> wrote:
>
>  Paul,
>
> ****Golly, I have no idea.
> ****I would think that the Bureau of Indian Affairs might be a
> good source.
> ****I just took a quick look at the boundary between national
> forest and the Navajo Reservation east of Flagstaff. Though the national
> forest is green under the View tab, no boundary shows up under the Edit
> tab. I have no idea why that is.
> ****Do you have any suggestions?
>
>
> At 03:57 PM 12/17/2012, you wrote:
>
> How do we handle tribal administrative boundaries?  This is kind of a big
> one for the US, Canada and Australia..
> On Dec 17, 2012 2:51 PM, "Charlotte Wolter"  wrote:
>  Serge,
>
> This is a good idea.
> I have a large file of data from the Acoma tribe, but my efforts
> to negotiate the import wiki have been fruitless. I can't made heads or
> tails of it.
> Further, I don't know if it's the kind of data we want (though
> they say it is public domain and gave permission in writing). It is road
> center lines for the whole reservation. I remember a remark somewhere in
> this forum that center lines are not the best data. At any rate, I'm not a
> good judge of whether or not it is what we want.
> In addition, I've already done work on the main roads, though
> often I'm lacking a name or number.
> And, I don't have tools to exmine a data file to see if it is
> congruent with what OSM can use.
> So, for many reasons, having a knowledgeable group take this on
> seems to me like a great idea.
>
> Best,
>
> Charlotte
>
> At 06:42 AM 12/17/2012, you wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> I know what it's like to be excited about OSM, and I know what it's
> like to be frustrated with OSM, struggling with low data quality, or
> lack of data altogether.
>
> And then you get access to a large dataset, and you know that having
> it in OSM would improve things. It would improve the quality, and
> maybe even get people mapping. At the same time, I think many of you
> have seen the damage that bad imports can do.
>
> The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by the
> import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are frstrated
> by the import process.
>
> So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide
> imports and large edits.
>
> This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data,
> and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback.
>
> When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one of
> the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's
> finally the amount of data and interest to justify it.
>
> What do folks think?
>
> - Serge
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
>  Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>  http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
>
> Charlotte Wolter
> 927 18th Street Suite A
> Santa Monica, California
> 90403
> +1-310-597-4040
> techl...@techlady.com
> Skype: thetechlady
>
> The Four Internet Freedoms
> Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
> Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
> Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
> Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would
> affect the first three freedoms.
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
>  Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>
> --
> Clifford
>
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
>
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US

2012-12-17 Thread Jason Remillard
Hi Serge,

You are tougher man than me :-)

How about this, nobody on the committee that has not personally done
at least 1 large import. If you do that, I am happy. Like I said,
these imports require a bunch of specialized skills, it would be good
to build up an expertise in it.

Thanks
Jason.

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Serge Wroclawski  wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Jason Remillard
>  wrote:
>
>> If you setup a user group to "help" with the imports, I think it will
>> be overrun with people that don't like all imports or are terrified of
>> them being screwed up.
>
> I haven't received any negative feedback about this committe except
> for yours, so I think maybe your judgement's a bit premature.
>
>> It will be like the UN human rights committee.
>> More hostility, but now with an official sounding group name. In a
>> sane world, there would be mappers that would be dedicated to imports.
>
> You seem to have your mind made up about a group that hasn't had its
> first meeting.
>
>> They would build up expertise in licensing, data conversion, batch
>> imports, large scale reverts, OSM processes, merging, efficiently
>> communicating with locals, etc. However, if you came out and said "I
>> do only imports", you would be getting hazed by the two groups of
>> people all of the time. Does not sound like fun to me.
>
> Only do things you enjoy, so if it doesn't sound like fun to you, then
> I say don't join.
>
> - Serge

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Tribal boundaries

2012-12-17 Thread Paul Johnson
Indeed, I think it's long overdue that we revisit the issue, though I would
propose that we find a way to make this fit into the existing
administrative boundary structure we use for other, similar administrative
regions, such as cities, counties, states and countries.

Essentially, the reason I really don't like the aboriginal lands tag is two
pronged:

Various degree of tribal control is glossed over.  My major beef with this
gross oversimplification is that tagging tribal areas the same way we would
a curiosity of nature trivializes and misrepresents what is much more
significantly an administrative boundary of variable significance.  You
have everything from small, relatively subjugated nations that have roughly
the same status as an incorporated town all the way up to tribes that have
their own customs checkpoints with the surrounding region, and everything
in between.  Ramifications of entering or leaving such a region is much
closer to that of crossing any other political boundary than it is crossing
a land management boundary (like a National Forest or State Park).

We're talking about people and authority, not land and resource management,
for the most part.  What makes American and Australian aboriginals so
special that they get a rather dismissive tagging scheme, whereas North
Ireland, Wales and Scotland don't?

On Monday, December 17, 2012, Mikel Maron wrote:

> This is what I've found in the Wiki. An old recommendation and discussion,
> but useful re-starting point
>  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Daboriginal_lands
>
> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
>
>   --
> *From:* Paul Johnson  'ba...@ursamundi.org');>>
> *To:* OpenStreetMap talk-us list  'cvml', 'talk-us@openstreetmap.org');>>
>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 17, 2012 6:57 PM
> *Subject:* [Talk-us] Tribal boundaries
>
> How do we handle tribal administrative boundaries?  This is kind of a big
> one for the US, Canada and Australia..
> On Dec 17, 2012 2:51 PM, "Charlotte Wolter" 
> >
> wrote:
>
>  Serge,
>
> ****This is a good idea.
> ****I have a large file of data from the Acoma tribe, but my
> efforts to negotiate the import wiki have been fruitless. I can't made
> heads or tails of it.
> ****Further, I don't know if it's the kind of data we want
> (though they say it is public domain and gave permission in writing). It is
> road center lines for the whole reservation. I remember a remark somewhere
> in this forum that center lines are not the best data. At any rate, I'm not
> a good judge of whether or not it is what we want.
> ****In addition, I've already done work on the main roads, though
> often I'm lacking a name or number.
> ****And, I don't have tools to exmine a data file to see if it is
> congruent with what OSM can use.
> ****So, for many reasons, having a knowledgeable group take this
> on seems to me like a great idea.
>
> Best,
>
> Charlotte
>
> At 06:42 AM 12/17/2012, you wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> I know what it's like to be excited about OSM, and I know what it's
> like to be frustrated with OSM, struggling with low data quality, or
> lack of data altogether.
>
> And then you get access to a large dataset, and you know that having
> it in OSM would improve things. It would improve the quality, and
> maybe even get people mapping. At the same time, I think many of you
> have seen the damage that bad imports can do.
>
> The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by the
> import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are frstrated
> by the import process.
>
> So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide
> imports and large edits.
>
> This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data,
> and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback.
>
> When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one of
> the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's
> finally the amount of data and interest to justify it.
>
> What do folks think?
>
> - Serge
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org  'Talk-us@openstreetmap.org');>
>  http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
> **
> ** Charlotte Wolter
> 927 18th Street Suite A
> Santa Monica, California
> 90403
> +1-310-597-4040
> techl...@techlady.com  'techl...@techlady.com');>
> Skype: thetechlady
>
> *The Four Internet Freedoms*
> Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
> Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
> Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
> Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would
> affect the first three freedoms.
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org  'Talk-us@openstreetmap.org');>
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
>
>

Re: [Talk-us] Tribal boundaries

2012-12-17 Thread Clifford Snow
You might check out
nationalatlas.gov/maplayers.html?openChapters=chpbound#chpbound for
boundaries. They have Indian Lands listed.  The data should be Public
Domain. The layer shows areas of 640 acres or larger administered by the
Bureau of Indian Affairs.


On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 4:33 PM, Charlotte Wolter wrote:

>  Paul,
>
> ****Golly, I have no idea.
> ****I would think that the Bureau of Indian Affairs might be a
> good source.
> ****I just took a quick look at the boundary between national
> forest and the Navajo Reservation east of Flagstaff. Though the national
> forest is green under the View tab, no boundary shows up under the Edit
> tab. I have no idea why that is.
> ****Do you have any suggestions?
>
>
> At 03:57 PM 12/17/2012, you wrote:
>
> How do we handle tribal administrative boundaries?  This is kind of a big
> one for the US, Canada and Australia..
> On Dec 17, 2012 2:51 PM, "Charlotte Wolter"  wrote:
>  Serge,
>
> This is a good idea.
> I have a large file of data from the Acoma tribe, but my efforts
> to negotiate the import wiki have been fruitless. I can't made heads or
> tails of it.
> Further, I don't know if it's the kind of data we want (though
> they say it is public domain and gave permission in writing). It is road
> center lines for the whole reservation. I remember a remark somewhere in
> this forum that center lines are not the best data. At any rate, I'm not a
> good judge of whether or not it is what we want.
> In addition, I've already done work on the main roads, though
> often I'm lacking a name or number.
> And, I don't have tools to exmine a data file to see if it is
> congruent with what OSM can use.
> So, for many reasons, having a knowledgeable group take this on
> seems to me like a great idea.
>
> Best,
>
> Charlotte
>
> At 06:42 AM 12/17/2012, you wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> I know what it's like to be excited about OSM, and I know what it's
> like to be frustrated with OSM, struggling with low data quality, or
> lack of data altogether.
>
> And then you get access to a large dataset, and you know that having
> it in OSM would improve things. It would improve the quality, and
> maybe even get people mapping. At the same time, I think many of you
> have seen the damage that bad imports can do.
>
> The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by the
> import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are frstrated
> by the import process.
>
> So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide
> imports and large edits.
>
> This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data,
> and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback.
>
> When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one of
> the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's
> finally the amount of data and interest to justify it.
>
> What do folks think?
>
> - Serge
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
>  Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>  http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
>
> Charlotte Wolter
> 927 18th Street Suite A
> Santa Monica, California
> 90403
> +1-310-597-4040
> techl...@techlady.com
> Skype: thetechlady
>
> The Four Internet Freedoms
> Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
> Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
> Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
> Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would
> affect the first three freedoms.
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
>  Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>  http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>  http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us **
>
> ** Charlotte Wolter
> 927 18th Street Suite A
> Santa Monica, California
> 90403
> +1-310-597-4040
> techl...@techlady.com
> Skype: thetechlady
>
> *The Four Internet Freedoms*
> Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
> Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
> Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
> Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would
> affect the first three freedoms.
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
>


-- 
Clifford

OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


[Talk-us] Imports and Large Edit Committee Meeting 12/20

2012-12-17 Thread Serge Wroclawski
Hi all,

During the OSM US Board meeting today, we discussed the new Import and
Large Edit Committee.

We will have it on 12/20 at 8:30pm EST on a Google Hangout, which is a
format that's worked well in the past.

If you're like to join the Hangout, please drop me a line.

Or if you'd like to join, and Google+ is a problem, please drop me a line.

Thanks,

- Serge

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US

2012-12-17 Thread Serge Wroclawski
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Jason Remillard
 wrote:

> If you setup a user group to "help" with the imports, I think it will
> be overrun with people that don't like all imports or are terrified of
> them being screwed up.

I haven't received any negative feedback about this committe except
for yours, so I think maybe your judgement's a bit premature.

> It will be like the UN human rights committee.
> More hostility, but now with an official sounding group name. In a
> sane world, there would be mappers that would be dedicated to imports.

You seem to have your mind made up about a group that hasn't had its
first meeting.

> They would build up expertise in licensing, data conversion, batch
> imports, large scale reverts, OSM processes, merging, efficiently
> communicating with locals, etc. However, if you came out and said "I
> do only imports", you would be getting hazed by the two groups of
> people all of the time. Does not sound like fun to me.

Only do things you enjoy, so if it doesn't sound like fun to you, then
I say don't join.

- Serge

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US

2012-12-17 Thread Jason Remillard
Hi,

There are some technical issues that make imports more complicated
than needed. First is the entire user account thing. I don't
understand why it is needed. If something gets screwed up, either way,
we are reverting the change set. Besides discouraging people form the
import, I don't know we benefit it brings. It is like a residual limb
that we needed before we had change sets, but keep seem to bring
ourselves to let it go. The second technical issue that the apparent
JOSM will upload a large change set that can't be easily reverted. It
would be good, if ether JOSM would chop up large changes below the
actual change set limit, or the 50K limit eliminated on the server
side. Not being able to revert something in JOSM is a big issue. We
can't be all relaxed about things if we can't do reverts.

Some people think all imports are are bad, some are just worried they
will be screwed up, in either case the result is the same, a hostile
mob waiting for you on lists. This has the effect of driving most of
the constructive import discussion off list. For my import, 80% of the
useful feedback was off list in private emails because people don't
want to deal with the rude behavior in the list. I made a bunch of
decisions that might seem weird to people that just follow the list.
But I assure you that I cared a whole lot what the 4 people who signed
up actually help thought about all of the issues. For example, I was
upset/surprised today that Greg said we went too fast. I had to weight
peoples opinions on the list much lower because they don't have any
skin in the game (not helping do the work, not from MA, they have an
agenda contrary to the project goal, and they are not in the loop).
Regardless, this is not that much fun, why go through this.

If you setup a user group to "help" with the imports, I think it will
be overrun with people that don't like all imports or are terrified of
them being screwed up. It will be like the UN human rights committee.
More hostility, but now with an official sounding group name. In a
sane world, there would be mappers that would be dedicated to imports.
They would build up expertise in licensing, data conversion, batch
imports, large scale reverts, OSM processes, merging, efficiently
communicating with locals, etc. However, if you came out and said "I
do only imports", you would be getting hazed by the two groups of
people all of the time. Does not sound like fun to me.

This is my most important point. The map in US is not mature. We need
people right now more than we need a good map. I would accept a
screwed map of MA in the short term in return for 20 new dedicated MA
mappers. We should be optimizing everything we do to get more help,
and if the map needs to get screwed up occasionally to accomplish that
I am 110% OK with that tradeoff. This project is not going to take in
the US without a ton more mappers. The population of MA, is 6.5
million people. My little tiny itty bitty state is larger than
Denmark, Slovakia, Finland, Ireland, Lithuania, Latvia, ,etc, etc. I
am not sure we even have 25 active mappers in the state.

Until the people that are still angry about the tiger import from 5
years ago let it go, and the people that are scared of screw ups,
decided that right now, building the community is more important than
the map, nothing is going to change. I think we are likely stuck in
this rut for a long while. I might as well be wishing for world peace.

Jason.


On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Alex Barth  wrote:
> Two more quesions just came to my mind:
>
> - Are there any volunteers who would love to run with guiding imports better?
> - Would also love to learn Jason Remillard's perspective of what could be 
> done better given that he's in the middle of working on the MassGIS building 
> import :)
>
> On Dec 17, 2012, at 9:42 AM, Serge Wroclawski  wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> I know what it's like to be excited about OSM, and I know what it's
>> like to be frustrated with OSM, struggling with low data quality, or
>> lack of data altogether.
>>
>> And then you get access to a large dataset, and you know that having
>> it in OSM would improve things. It would improve the quality, and
>> maybe even get people mapping. At the same time, I think many of you
>> have seen the damage that bad imports can do.
>>
>> The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by the
>> import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are frstrated
>> by the import process.
>>
>> So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide
>> imports and large edits.
>>
>> This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data,
>> and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback.
>>
>> When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one of
>> the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's
>> finally the amount of data and interest to justify it.
>>
>> What do folks think?
>>
>> - Serge
>>
>> 

Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US

2012-12-17 Thread Greg Troxel

  The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by the
  import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are frstrated
  by the import process.

  [import/mechanical-edit committee proposal]

I agree with your broad sentiments.

Having observed some recent discussion, I think we have two fundamental
problems:

  1) the import guidelines don't adequately describe what is actually
  expected (reasonably so) by the more experienced people

  2) people who want to import are very enthusiastic and often do not
  fully appreciate the difficulty of doing it right and the benefits of
  review and care, and aech new would-be importer needs to have the
  norms communicated to them

I have a concern that while there is wide agreement that imports must be
careful, there is also a view (which I perceive to be a minority view)
that all imports are harmful.  For the committee and "import with care"
effort to be socially successful, I think it has to be separated from
the "do not import at all" view.  I think your note expresses that
separation (or rather, only expresses the view that imports must be done
with care, and I am speculating that you did that on purpose), but I
wanted to mention this explicitly.

I realize my proposals below may come across as strict, but I am
actually in favor of careful imports of high-quality data, when done by
people with a sense of stewardship for the affected area.  (I'm in
Massachusetts, and most of the MassGIS data is very high quality, so
that's my implicit reference point.)  So I am not trying to stop
imports; rather, I think that with more care and especially more delays
for review, we'll get a better outcome in terms of the ratio of map
utiltity to total volunteer time.

My thinking is heavily influenced by the experience of leading a
~20-person software team, with a loose analogy of preparing changes on
branches and then merging to master with approval.  I know imported data
isn't software, but in terms of preparing bits and then changing the
shared code/data base, I think it's quite analagous.

Overall I suggest three concrete steps:

  1) document the actual expectations on the wiki.  Specifically

 a) The conversion process has to be described well enough to be
 considered High Level Design from a software viewpoint so that
 someone else could write the conversion scripts.  This should
 address datum/projection issues.  Most importantly, it should
 address how the import avoids new data that conflicts with old
 data.  The plan should describe which tools will be used to put the
 data in the main database

 b) The actual data to be uploaded (with all pre-upload cleanup
 actually done, not the notion that each file will get manual
 cleanup before uploading) has to be posted for review.

 c) No data can be uploaded until the per-import page has met the
 standards, and the scripts and converted data that will be uploaded
 has been published, and there's been a 14 day review period, which
 is reset by any substantive change in the page or any change in the
 script or data.

 d) (probably) the data should be uploaded to some test server
 (assuming there is one) so that people can see what happens in the
 database and with rendering.  Each person doing uploads should be
 expected to do the test server upload.

 e) Once the two weeks have passed, and there is rough consensus
 that the plan and data are adequate, a small amount of data (but
 bigger than can be examined 100% by hand) can be uploaded.  The
 idea is to have something that is not that big in case there is
 trouble, but for which the process will be representative of the
 rest.  An example would be a single town in Massachusetts, with
 thousands of buildings or address points or hundreds of roads.

 f) After the initial small upload, there is another 14 day review
 period, during which people can find issues with the data.   If
 there are significant issues, the proposal, script and data should
 be fixed, and the 14-day review period in step c starts anew

  2) Add the notion that when people talk about imports, the committee
 contacts them privately and makes sure they really understand point
 1.  Probably also a public note in response, briefer.  Someone from
 the committee should stay in touch about judging when the consensus
 in (e) has happened.  Overall, aside from documenting the norms, I
 see this as the main job of the committee.

  3) For areas where it makes sense, consider sending private messages
 via the web site to registered active mappers in the area.  For
 example, if after the MassGIS buildings import entered the 14-day
 review period (where all concerns had been met), it might make
 sense to message every Mass mapper who has edited in the last 90
 days and point out the wiki page and that it's being discussed on
 talk

Re: [Talk-us] Tribal boundaries

2012-12-17 Thread Mikel Maron
This is what I've found in the Wiki. An old recommendation and discussion, but 
useful re-starting point
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Daboriginal_lands
 
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


>
> From: Paul Johnson 
>To: OpenStreetMap talk-us list  
>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 6:57 PM
>Subject: [Talk-us] Tribal boundaries
> 
>
>How do we handle tribal administrative boundaries?  This is kind of a big one 
>for the US, Canada and Australia..
>On Dec 17, 2012 2:51 PM, "Charlotte Wolter"  wrote:
>
>Serge,
>>
>>This is a
good idea.
>>I have a
large file of data from the Acoma tribe, but my efforts to negotiate the
import wiki have been fruitless. I can't made heads or tails of it.
>>Further, I
don't know if it's the kind of data we want (though they say it is public
domain and gave permission in writing). It is road center lines for the
whole reservation. I remember a remark somewhere in this forum that
center lines are not the best data. At any rate, I'm not a good judge of
whether or not it is what we want.
>>In
addition, I've already done work on the main roads, though often I'm
lacking a name or number.
>>And, I
don't have tools to exmine a data file to see if it is congruent with
what OSM can use.
>>So, for
many reasons, having a knowledgeable group take this on seems to me like
a great idea.
>>
>>Best,
>>
>>Charlotte
>>
>>At 06:42 AM 12/17/2012, you wrote:
>>
>>Folks,
>>>
>>>I know what it's like to be excited about OSM, and I know what it's
>>>like to be frustrated with OSM, struggling with low data quality, or
>>>lack of data altogether.
>>>
>>>And then you get access to a large dataset, and you know that having
>>>it in OSM would improve things. It would improve the quality, and
>>>maybe even get people mapping. At the same time, I think many of you
>>>have seen the damage that bad imports can do.
>>>
>>>The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by
the
>>>import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are
frstrated
>>>by the import process.
>>>
>>>So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help
guide
>>>imports and large edits.
>>>
>>>This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import
data,
>>>and offer the larger community time to review and provide
feedback.
>>>
>>>When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one
of
>>>the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's
>>>finally the amount of data and interest to justify it.
>>>
>>>What do folks think?
>>>
>>>- Serge
>>>
>>>___
>>>Talk-us mailing list
>>>Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>>>http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>> Charlotte Wolter
>>927 18th Street Suite A
>>Santa Monica, California
>>90403
>>+1-310-597-4040
>>techl...@techlady.com
>>Skype: thetechlady
>>
>>The Four Internet Freedoms 
>>Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
>>Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
>>Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the
network
>>Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would
affect the first three freedoms.
>>
>>___
>>Talk-us mailing list
>>Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>>http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>
>>
>___
>Talk-us mailing list
>Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
>
>___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Tribal boundaries

2012-12-17 Thread Charlotte Wolter

Paul,

Golly, I have no idea.
I would think that the Bureau of Indian Affairs might be a 
good source.
I just took a quick look at the boundary between national 
forest and the Navajo Reservation east of Flagstaff. Though the 
national forest is green under the View tab, no boundary shows up 
under the Edit tab. I have no idea why that is.

Do you have any suggestions?


At 03:57 PM 12/17/2012, you wrote:

How do we handle tribal administrative boundaries?  This is kind of 
a big one for the US, Canada and Australia..
On Dec 17, 2012 2:51 PM, "Charlotte Wolter" 
<techl...@techlady.com> wrote:

Serge,

This is a good idea.
I have a large file of data from the Acoma tribe, but my 
efforts to negotiate the import wiki have been fruitless. I can't 
made heads or tails of it.
Further, I don't know if it's the kind of data we want 
(though they say it is public domain and gave permission in 
writing). It is road center lines for the whole reservation. I 
remember a remark somewhere in this forum that center lines are not 
the best data. At any rate, I'm not a good judge of whether or not 
it is what we want.
In addition, I've already done work on the main roads, 
though often I'm lacking a name or number.
And, I don't have tools to exmine a data file to see if it 
is congruent with what OSM can use.
So, for many reasons, having a knowledgeable group take 
this on seems to me like a great idea.


Best,

Charlotte

At 06:42 AM 12/17/2012, you wrote:

Folks,

I know what it's like to be excited about OSM, and I know what it's
like to be frustrated with OSM, struggling with low data quality, or
lack of data altogether.

And then you get access to a large dataset, and you know that having
it in OSM would improve things. It would improve the quality, and
maybe even get people mapping. At the same time, I think many of you
have seen the damage that bad imports can do.

The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by the
import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are frstrated
by the import process.

So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide
imports and large edits.

This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data,
and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback.

When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one of
the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's
finally the amount of data and interest to justify it.

What do folks think?

- Serge

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Charlotte Wolter
927 18th Street Suite A
Santa Monica, California
90403
+1-310-597-4040
techl...@techlady.com
Skype: thetechlady

The Four Internet Freedoms
Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that 
would affect the first three freedoms.


___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Charlotte Wolter
927 18th Street Suite A
Santa Monica, California
90403
+1-310-597-4040
techl...@techlady.com
Skype: thetechlady

The Four Internet Freedoms
Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that 
would affect the first three freedoms.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import

2012-12-17 Thread Michal Migurski
On Dec 17, 2012, at 12:50 PM, Steve Coast wrote:

> On Dec 17, 2012, at 12:45 PM, Michal Migurski  wrote:
> 
>> Information density: maybe a different grid for lower zoom levels, e.g. 5km, 
>> 10km, etc.? It would have the opposite effect of what's there now I think, 
>> which is "look at all that green!"
> 
> I prefer modulating by population, since a sea of green in Wyoming (with 
> apologies to those in Wyoming) really doesn't matter since nobody lives 
> there. The question is, where is the population / edits ration low, not the 
> absolute edits numbers.
> 
> Maybe ask people from CloudMade what they did 3 years ago.
> 
> Also, I wouldn't ask the question(s) in a vacuum. I suspect, but cannot 
> confirm, that if you did a similar analysis of NT or TA data in the US you'd 
> see exactly the same thing; a natural economic bias in the metrics to mapping 
> places with high population density.


I suspect the same, it makes sense given driving patterns and economic demand.

-mike.


michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html





___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


[Talk-us] Tribal boundaries

2012-12-17 Thread Paul Johnson
How do we handle tribal administrative boundaries?  This is kind of a big
one for the US, Canada and Australia..
On Dec 17, 2012 2:51 PM, "Charlotte Wolter"  wrote:

>  Serge,
>
> ****This is a good idea.
> ****I have a large file of data from the Acoma tribe, but my
> efforts to negotiate the import wiki have been fruitless. I can't made
> heads or tails of it.
> ****Further, I don't know if it's the kind of data we want
> (though they say it is public domain and gave permission in writing). It is
> road center lines for the whole reservation. I remember a remark somewhere
> in this forum that center lines are not the best data. At any rate, I'm not
> a good judge of whether or not it is what we want.
> ****In addition, I've already done work on the main roads, though
> often I'm lacking a name or number.
> ****And, I don't have tools to exmine a data file to see if it is
> congruent with what OSM can use.
> ****So, for many reasons, having a knowledgeable group take this
> on seems to me like a great idea.
>
> Best,
>
> Charlotte
>
> At 06:42 AM 12/17/2012, you wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> I know what it's like to be excited about OSM, and I know what it's
> like to be frustrated with OSM, struggling with low data quality, or
> lack of data altogether.
>
> And then you get access to a large dataset, and you know that having
> it in OSM would improve things. It would improve the quality, and
> maybe even get people mapping. At the same time, I think many of you
> have seen the damage that bad imports can do.
>
> The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by the
> import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are frstrated
> by the import process.
>
> So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide
> imports and large edits.
>
> This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data,
> and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback.
>
> When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one of
> the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's
> finally the amount of data and interest to justify it.
>
> What do folks think?
>
> - Serge
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>  http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
> **
>
> ** Charlotte Wolter
> 927 18th Street Suite A
> Santa Monica, California
> 90403
> +1-310-597-4040
> techl...@techlady.com
> Skype: thetechlady
>
> *The Four Internet Freedoms*
> Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
> Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
> Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
> Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would
> affect the first three freedoms.
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
>
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US

2012-12-17 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

On 17.12.2012 19:55, Kai Krueger wrote:

it is great to see if technically capable people deeply routed in the
community take charge of the import process to ensure that they are done to
the highest technical standard


That is one thing. Another thing that will usually distinguish an 
acceptable import from those, quote



we have unfortunately seen so
often in the past.


is also the relationship of the person doing the import with the land. 
You will get better results if someone imports his own city quarter than 
if you allow him to import a whole county he's never set foot in, for 
two reasons - (a) he's familiar with what he's importing and has a 
better chance to spot problems; (b) he's more likely to actually care 
for what he's importing.


Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import

2012-12-17 Thread Michal Migurski
On Dec 17, 2012, at 1:01 PM, Charlotte Wolter wrote:

>> Hi Mike,
> 
> I was looking at the web page yu created. One problem is that I'm not 
> sure which green, light or dark or kinda light or kinda dark, means an 
> untouched kilometer. Also, what does black mean?
> Then I checked an area I edited extensively: Chinle, Arizona. Again, 
> I was puzzled because I have worked on most of the area, but some is dark 
> green, some light green and some black. 
> However, the basic idea seems great. It just needs a little more 
> interpretation, I think, and maybe different colors?

Green generally means untouched, based the user IDs attached to ways. I think 
I'm undercounting participation from people who edited nodes whose changes 
don't show up in the line table.

-mike.


michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html





___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] King County Address Imports

2012-12-17 Thread Steve Coast
I'd like a look at the unincorporated data, which is where I live :-)

Steve



On Dec 17, 2012, at 1:04 PM, Clifford Snow  wrote:

> Now that King County, WA has given us access to use their GIS data as Jeff 
> Meyer reported, I have converted their address data for the entire county 
> into smaller blocks. These are available on my Dropbox account if anyone 
> would like to review the data. Just send me an email with your request. 
> 
> The data is broken up by city and in Seattle, the data is further broken up 
> by neighborhood. The unincorporated areas are in one file.
> 
> The following tags are populated for each address
> addr:city (except for unincorporated areas)
> addr:housenumber
> addr:postcode (zip5)
> addr:street (fully expanded)
> source = King County GIS
> We are not ready to start the import process at this time.  Final process 
> steps and training on how to properly import using JOSM are key steps we 
> expect to complete shortly.
> 
> -- 
> Clifford
> 
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
> 
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


[Talk-us] King County Address Imports

2012-12-17 Thread Clifford Snow
Now that King County, WA has given us access to use their GIS data as Jeff
Meyer reported, I have converted their address data for the entire county
into smaller blocks. These are available on my Dropbox account if anyone
would like to review the data. Just send me an email with your request.

The data is broken up by city and in Seattle, the data is further broken up
by neighborhood. The unincorporated areas are in one file.

The following tags are populated for each address

   - addr:city (except for unincorporated areas)
   - addr:housenumber
   - addr:postcode (zip5)
   - addr:street (fully expanded)
   - source = King County GIS

We are not ready to start the import process at this time.  Final process
steps and training on how to properly import using JOSM are key steps we
expect to complete shortly.

-- 
Clifford

OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


[Talk-us] Fwd: Re: More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import

2012-12-17 Thread Charlotte Wolter



X-Cloudmark-Score: 0
X-RR-Connecting-IP: 97.74.135.185
Delivered-To: techl...@techlady.com
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: 
AogCAKN8z1BZELOWlGdsb2JhbABFFoJWXLpXCBYOAQEBAQkLCQkUBCOCHgEBAQMBAQEBPQEBBAoeCwECAgEBAgYBCxgmCAMBIwEMAQUBHAYTBQ+HeQYBAwibWIp0hDoBBY5+Boxdg2JhiC81inuDSoRPiH0/hDU
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; 
c=relaxed/relaxed; d=asklater.com; s=google;

 h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc
 :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer;
 bh=2nLuO7eTB6RvHegtilzC/gZRaRmYHSpTPIcZmnGU67M=;
 b=UBBnklUjHcNAyFGRK94nFa+Cb6JdjAcw4xUpnz6fYfx6bCdl2jQ5VDCPRbBcKvdq9U
 QIGlHQbOdBLwjy2MhhU1FOT2+v0asyYeqKo5zEbrHLsukwsQBX9OHDCgExS13rrKAt6I
 jkMfgRdmug79A9CaJlfHVPWuO3Cc3H6L3w/Lo=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=google.com; s=20120113;
 h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc
 :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer
 :x-gm-message-state;
 bh=2nLuO7eTB6RvHegtilzC/gZRaRmYHSpTPIcZmnGU67M=;
 b=a+nMSrmhY+QNA4VCT1J2xx5WvLhEtX1NmsgLn1adR3IRb1C5hFapbHgB//kl4g3RHK
 YfEbED9LUE5zmXmsk/MQky0AeptM8cPRWMW4k93RcFzL+f9jnn88t7GwXofkS/hxkbhR
 CEXQ4AyiO0VtBiscU50czWeazOQc0pL0X7lTEXwt1nquycumfnUvAmD9id4NziUQCRJR
 O6SVAq0fg9bH1DGnUg7KT1uqzYAZkE4ZdBuUzHvvGdi2mhe39tY6oUca3yYd+LU17Zsi
 wAMxlOxzAxTBWcpuNahSB/LTi32F3guui5uklJVA5a3keY6A3s79Kr5IPv2HLXLi5VFQ
 r8dg==
From: Steve Coast 
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 12:22:10 -0800
To: Martijn van Exel 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499)
X-Gm-Message-State: 
ALoCoQm0Rt9I+V6dfilQQhg55d4OkdlZV6dxrjtO+Mn7M4hJZS9fcuwPrlc4iLMpMN8trGrLfVXS

Cc: Michal Migurski ,
 OpenStreetMap US Talk 
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import
X-BeenThere: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14
List-Id: OpenStreetMap USA 
List-Unsubscribe: ,
 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
Hi Mike,


I was looking at the web page yu 
created. One problem is that I'm not sure which 
green, light or dark or kinda light or kinda 
dark, means an untouched kilometer. Also, what does black mean?
Then I checked an area I edited 
extensively: Chinle, Arizona. Again, I was 
puzzled because I have worked on most of the 
area, but some is dark green, some light green and some black.
However, the basic idea seems great. It 
just needs a little more interpretation, I think, and maybe different colors?


Best,

Charlotte





List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: ,
 

Nice.

Suggestions;

- kill water somehow
- Information density at low zoom levels implies 
that basically everywhere is green. But you zoom 
to the bay area and see this isn't the case. So, 
change the coloring? Modulate it by population density?


Steve

On Dec 16, 2012, at 8:32 PM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> OK this is plain awesome. Great work Mike.
>
> One note of caution though - the title may suggest that you can just
> go ahead and import away, but folks would still have to follow the
> import guidelines and contact the OSM community at large, come up with
> a solid proposal and discuss that, even if there is no local
> community. I know it says it on the tin, but it's kind of tucked away
> at the bottom.
>
> Have you looked into full history planet parsing to get a fuller
> picture of editing history? I took a stab at full history user metrics
> some time ago using osmjs;
> https://github.com/mvexel/OSMQualityMetrics/blob/master/UserStats.js -
> this produces one set of metrics for the entire .osh file you feed it
> but it may prove useful for future work. I haven't touched this in a
> while but it should still work :/
>
> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Michal Migurski  wrote:
>> I pulled together some of the notes and 
imagery I've been posting here recently:

>>
>>http://www.openstreetmap.us/~migurski/green-means-go/
>>
>> It's a map of 1km×1km squares covering the 
continental United States. Green squares show 
places where data imports are unlikely to 
interfere with community mapping. Raw data is linked at the bottom.

>>
>> Three things that would make this better:
>>
>> - Regular updates with archived older versions.
>> - Renders for specific counties, intended for local GIS communities.
>> - Some awareness of full planet history.
>>
>> The OSM-US server has data for regular updates.
>>
>> -mike.
>>
>> 
>> michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
>> sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
>
>
> --
> Martijn 

Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US

2012-12-17 Thread Charlotte Wolter

Serge,

This is a good idea.
I have a large file of data from the Acoma tribe, but my 
efforts to negotiate the import wiki have been fruitless. I can't 
made heads or tails of it.
Further, I don't know if it's the kind of data we want 
(though they say it is public domain and gave permission in writing). 
It is road center lines for the whole reservation. I remember a 
remark somewhere in this forum that center lines are not the best 
data. At any rate, I'm not a good judge of whether or not it is what we want.
In addition, I've already done work on the main roads, 
though often I'm lacking a name or number.
And, I don't have tools to exmine a data file to see if it 
is congruent with what OSM can use.
So, for many reasons, having a knowledgeable group take this 
on seems to me like a great idea.


Best,

Charlotte

At 06:42 AM 12/17/2012, you wrote:

Folks,

I know what it's like to be excited about OSM, and I know what it's
like to be frustrated with OSM, struggling with low data quality, or
lack of data altogether.

And then you get access to a large dataset, and you know that having
it in OSM would improve things. It would improve the quality, and
maybe even get people mapping. At the same time, I think many of you
have seen the damage that bad imports can do.

The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by the
import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are frstrated
by the import process.

So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide
imports and large edits.

This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data,
and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback.

When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one of
the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's
finally the amount of data and interest to justify it.

What do folks think?

- Serge

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Charlotte Wolter
927 18th Street Suite A
Santa Monica, California
90403
+1-310-597-4040
techl...@techlady.com
Skype: thetechlady

The Four Internet Freedoms
Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that 
would affect the first three freedoms.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import

2012-12-17 Thread Steve Coast

On Dec 17, 2012, at 12:45 PM, Michal Migurski  wrote:

> Information density: maybe a different grid for lower zoom levels, e.g. 5km, 
> 10km, etc.? It would have the opposite effect of what's there now I think, 
> which is "look at all that green!"

I prefer modulating by population, since a sea of green in Wyoming (with 
apologies to those in Wyoming) really doesn't matter since nobody lives there. 
The question is, where is the population / edits ration low, not the absolute 
edits numbers.

Maybe ask people from CloudMade what they did 3 years ago.

Also, I wouldn't ask the question(s) in a vacuum. I suspect, but cannot 
confirm, that if you did a similar analysis of NT or TA data in the US you'd 
see exactly the same thing; a natural economic bias in the metrics to mapping 
places with high population density.

Steve




> -mike.
> 
> On Dec 17, 2012, at 12:22 PM, Steve Coast wrote:
> 
>> Nice.
>> 
>> Suggestions;
>> 
>> - kill water somehow
>> - Information density at low zoom levels implies that basically everywhere 
>> is green. But you zoom to the bay area and see this isn't the case. So, 
>> change the coloring? Modulate it by population density?
>> 
>> Steve
>> 
>> On Dec 16, 2012, at 8:32 PM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
>> 
>>> OK this is plain awesome. Great work Mike.
>>> 
>>> One note of caution though - the title may suggest that you can just
>>> go ahead and import away, but folks would still have to follow the
>>> import guidelines and contact the OSM community at large, come up with
>>> a solid proposal and discuss that, even if there is no local
>>> community. I know it says it on the tin, but it's kind of tucked away
>>> at the bottom.
>>> 
>>> Have you looked into full history planet parsing to get a fuller
>>> picture of editing history? I took a stab at full history user metrics
>>> some time ago using osmjs;
>>> https://github.com/mvexel/OSMQualityMetrics/blob/master/UserStats.js -
>>> this produces one set of metrics for the entire .osh file you feed it
>>> but it may prove useful for future work. I haven't touched this in a
>>> while but it should still work :/
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Michal Migurski  wrote:
 I pulled together some of the notes and imagery I've been posting here 
 recently:
 
  http://www.openstreetmap.us/~migurski/green-means-go/
 
 It's a map of 1km×1km squares covering the continental United States. 
 Green squares show places where data imports are unlikely to interfere 
 with community mapping. Raw data is linked at the bottom.
 
 Three things that would make this better:
 
 - Regular updates with archived older versions.
 - Renders for specific counties, intended for local GIS communities.
 - Some awareness of full planet history.
 
 The OSM-US server has data for regular updates.
 
 -mike.
 
 
 michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
 sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html
 
 
 
 
 
 ___
 Talk-us mailing list
 Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Martijn van Exel
>>> http://oegeo.wordpress.com/
>>> http://openstreetmap.us/
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Talk-us mailing list
>>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>> 
> 
> 
> michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
> sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import

2012-12-17 Thread Michal Migurski
Agreed. What I *really* want is a version of this map that's tailored to 
meaningful jurisdictions, Census places and counties. It's one thing to see an 
all-over view but if you're a city GIS guy and you have a file of data that you 
want to input, it'd be useful for you to see just your specific area with some 
guidance on how to proceed:

1. How much is green vs. not green, and the likelihood of improvement.
2. OSM users who are responsible for existing work in your area.
3. Non-highway data in the area, e.g. POIs and such.

Christine White from Esri, who attended SOTM-US in Portland, told me that at 
the annual user conference she gets a regular stream of these people 
approaching her with blobs of official data, a desire to donate it to OSM, and 
no knowledge about how to proceed or what effect it would have. We should help 
her and them!

-mike.

On Dec 17, 2012, at 12:39 PM, Charlotte Wolter wrote:

> 
> While I like the idea of being able to identify and possibly do 
> imports for one-kilometer-square (why not miles?) chunks of the map, I think 
> it needs to be accompanied with lots of cautionary language about assessing 
> the area thoroughly before taking any such action. We could give people 
> examples of what to look for to see if the area really is a TIGER "desert," 
> and what to check before making a move. 
> May be it would be better if a group of squares are identified using 
> criteria set up by the Data group or someone similarly experienced. Then, the 
> square kilometers could be presented in a Maproulette kind of format, but 
> with a chance to choose which one you take on. That way, you could choose 
> square kilometers that are near where you are working anyway or near areas 
> with which you are familiar.
> 
> Best, 
> Charlotte
> 
> 
> At 12:22 PM 12/17/2012, you wrote:
>> Nice.
>> 
>> Suggestions;
>> 
>> - kill water somehow
>> - Information density at low zoom levels implies that basically everywhere 
>> is green. But you zoom to the bay area and see this isn't the case. So, 
>> change the coloring? Modulate it by population density?
>> 
>> Steve
>> 
>> On Dec 16, 2012, at 8:32 PM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
>> 
>> > OK this is plain awesome. Great work Mike.
>> > 
>> > One note of caution though - the title may suggest that you can just
>> > go ahead and import away, but folks would still have to follow the
>> > import guidelines and contact the OSM community at large, come up with
>> > a solid proposal and discuss that, even if there is no local
>> > community. I know it says it on the tin, but it's kind of tucked away
>> > at the bottom.
>> > 
>> > Have you looked into full history planet parsing to get a fuller
>> > picture of editing history? I took a stab at full history user metrics
>> > some time ago using osmjs;
>> > https://github.com/mvexel/OSMQualityMetrics/blob/master/UserStats.js -
>> > this produces one set of metrics for the entire .osh file you feed it
>> > but it may prove useful for future work. I haven't touched this in a
>> > while but it should still work :/
>> > 
>> > On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Michal Migurski  wrote:
>> >> I pulled together some of the notes and imagery I've been posting here 
>> >> recently:
>> >> 
>> >>http://www.openstreetmap.us/~migurski/green-means-go/
>> >> 
>> >> It's a map of 1km×1km squares covering the continental United States. 
>> >> Green squares show places where data imports are unlikely to interfere 
>> >> with community mapping. Raw data is linked at the bottom.
>> >> 
>> >> Three things that would make this better:
>> >> 
>> >> - Regular updates with archived older versions.
>> >> - Renders for specific counties, intended for local GIS communities.
>> >> - Some awareness of full planet history.
>> >> 
>> >> The OSM-US server has data for regular updates.
>> >> 
>> >> -mike.
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
>> >> sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> ___
>> >> Talk-us mailing list
>> >> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>> >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > -- 
>> > Martijn van Exel
>> > http://oegeo.wordpress.com/
>> > http://openstreetmap.us/
>> > 
>> > ___
>> > Talk-us mailing list
>> > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> Charlotte Wolter
> 927 18th Street Suite A
> Santa Monica, California
> 90403
> +1-310-597-4040
> techl...@techlady.com
> Skype: thetechlady
> 
> The Four Internet Freedoms 
> Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
> Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
> Freedom to attach any 

Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import

2012-12-17 Thread Michal Migurski
Information density: maybe a different grid for lower zoom levels, e.g. 5km, 
10km, etc.? It would have the opposite effect of what's there now I think, 
which is "look at all that green!"

-mike.

On Dec 17, 2012, at 12:22 PM, Steve Coast wrote:

> Nice.
> 
> Suggestions;
> 
> - kill water somehow
> - Information density at low zoom levels implies that basically everywhere is 
> green. But you zoom to the bay area and see this isn't the case. So, change 
> the coloring? Modulate it by population density?
> 
> Steve
> 
> On Dec 16, 2012, at 8:32 PM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
> 
>> OK this is plain awesome. Great work Mike.
>> 
>> One note of caution though - the title may suggest that you can just
>> go ahead and import away, but folks would still have to follow the
>> import guidelines and contact the OSM community at large, come up with
>> a solid proposal and discuss that, even if there is no local
>> community. I know it says it on the tin, but it's kind of tucked away
>> at the bottom.
>> 
>> Have you looked into full history planet parsing to get a fuller
>> picture of editing history? I took a stab at full history user metrics
>> some time ago using osmjs;
>> https://github.com/mvexel/OSMQualityMetrics/blob/master/UserStats.js -
>> this produces one set of metrics for the entire .osh file you feed it
>> but it may prove useful for future work. I haven't touched this in a
>> while but it should still work :/
>> 
>> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Michal Migurski  wrote:
>>> I pulled together some of the notes and imagery I've been posting here 
>>> recently:
>>> 
>>>   http://www.openstreetmap.us/~migurski/green-means-go/
>>> 
>>> It's a map of 1km×1km squares covering the continental United States. Green 
>>> squares show places where data imports are unlikely to interfere with 
>>> community mapping. Raw data is linked at the bottom.
>>> 
>>> Three things that would make this better:
>>> 
>>> - Regular updates with archived older versions.
>>> - Renders for specific counties, intended for local GIS communities.
>>> - Some awareness of full planet history.
>>> 
>>> The OSM-US server has data for regular updates.
>>> 
>>> -mike.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
>>> sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Talk-us mailing list
>>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Martijn van Exel
>> http://oegeo.wordpress.com/
>> http://openstreetmap.us/
>> 
>> ___
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> 
> 
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> 


michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html





___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import

2012-12-17 Thread Michal Migurski
On Dec 17, 2012, at 1:58 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On 12/17/12 04:02, Michal Migurski wrote:
>> I pulled together some of the notes and imagery I've been posting here 
>> recently:
>> 
>>  http://www.openstreetmap.us/~migurski/green-means-go/
> 
> I take offense at your wording (on the page): "Where in the United States 
> could government imports improve OpenStreetMap?" - you might add data to OSM 
> but will you improve OSM? It's not the same, and equating the two is a 
> mistake that insiders should not make.
> 
> The wording
> 
>> Green squares show places where data imports are unlikely to interfere with 
>> community mapping.
> 
> is also misleading; it has been shown that imports can very well interfere 
> with *future* community mapping of which you would, naturally, not find 
> traces in the data you analysed.
> 
> The correct wording is:
> 
> "Green squares show places where little or no community mapping has taken 
> place in the past."


How about something like this?
"Green squares show places where data imports are unlikely to conflict 
with past community mapping."

I think in the case of the US, the previous government data is so bad relative 
to what's currently out there that a fresh import will necessarily improve OSM, 
if I can make the green areas more reflective of the true state of edited 
places. Full history is a means to this; I've got some off-list responses from 
people who don't think that their own mapping efforts are accurately reflected 
in the green squares.

-mike.


michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html





___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import

2012-12-17 Thread Michal Migurski
On Dec 16, 2012, at 8:32 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote:

> OK this is plain awesome. Great work Mike.
> 
> One note of caution though - the title may suggest that you can just
> go ahead and import away, but folks would still have to follow the
> import guidelines and contact the OSM community at large, come up with
> a solid proposal and discuss that, even if there is no local
> community. I know it says it on the tin, but it's kind of tucked away
> at the bottom.

You're right, I've emphasized that up near the top, thanks.


> Have you looked into full history planet parsing to get a fuller
> picture of editing history? I took a stab at full history user metrics
> some time ago using osmjs;
> https://github.com/mvexel/OSMQualityMetrics/blob/master/UserStats.js -
> this produces one set of metrics for the entire .osh file you feed it
> but it may prove useful for future work. I haven't touched this in a
> while but it should still work :/

I have downloaded a copy and given it a beginning look. I'm new to parsing 
things of that magnitude; my first thought was to use the full history file for 
creations/modifications/deletions on nodes and add that to what I'm doing 
already for ways on the osm2pgsql tables. Does that sound reasonable?

I'll check out your parser; what kinds of metrics does it produce?

-mike.

> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Michal Migurski  wrote:
>> I pulled together some of the notes and imagery I've been posting here 
>> recently:
>> 
>>http://www.openstreetmap.us/~migurski/green-means-go/
>> 
>> It's a map of 1km×1km squares covering the continental United States. Green 
>> squares show places where data imports are unlikely to interfere with 
>> community mapping. Raw data is linked at the bottom.
>> 
>> Three things that would make this better:
>> 
>> - Regular updates with archived older versions.
>> - Renders for specific counties, intended for local GIS communities.
>> - Some awareness of full planet history.
>> 
>> The OSM-US server has data for regular updates.
>> 
>> -mike.
>> 
>> 
>> michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
>> sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Martijn van Exel
> http://oegeo.wordpress.com/
> http://openstreetmap.us/
> 
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html





___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import

2012-12-17 Thread Charlotte Wolter


While I like the idea of being able to 
identify and possibly do imports for 
one-kilometer-square (why not miles?) chunks of 
the map, I think it needs to be accompanied with 
lots of cautionary language about assessing the 
area thoroughly before taking any such action. We 
could give people examples of what to look for to 
see if the area really is a TIGER "desert," and 
what to check before making a move.
May be it would be better if a group of 
squares are identified using criteria set up by 
the Data group or someone similarly experienced. 
Then, the square kilometers could be presented in 
a Maproulette kind of format, but with a chance 
to choose which one you take on. That way, you 
could choose square kilometers that are near 
where you are working anyway or near areas with which you are familiar.


Best,
Charlotte


At 12:22 PM 12/17/2012, you wrote:

Nice.

Suggestions;

- kill water somehow
- Information density at low zoom levels implies 
that basically everywhere is green. But you zoom 
to the bay area and see this isn't the case. So, 
change the coloring? Modulate it by population density?


Steve

On Dec 16, 2012, at 8:32 PM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> OK this is plain awesome. Great work Mike.
>
> One note of caution though - the title may suggest that you can just
> go ahead and import away, but folks would still have to follow the
> import guidelines and contact the OSM community at large, come up with
> a solid proposal and discuss that, even if there is no local
> community. I know it says it on the tin, but it's kind of tucked away
> at the bottom.
>
> Have you looked into full history planet parsing to get a fuller
> picture of editing history? I took a stab at full history user metrics
> some time ago using osmjs;
> https://github.com/mvexel/OSMQualityMetrics/blob/master/UserStats.js -
> this produces one set of metrics for the entire .osh file you feed it
> but it may prove useful for future work. I haven't touched this in a
> while but it should still work :/
>
> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Michal Migurski  wrote:
>> I pulled together some of the notes and 
imagery I've been posting here recently:

>>
>>http://www.openstreetmap.us/~migurski/green-means-go/
>>
>> It's a map of 1km×1km squares covering the 
continental United States. Green squares show 
places where data imports are unlikely to 
interfere with community mapping. Raw data is linked at the bottom.

>>
>> Three things that would make this better:
>>
>> - Regular updates with archived older versions.
>> - Renders for specific counties, intended for local GIS communities.
>> - Some awareness of full planet history.
>>
>> The OSM-US server has data for regular updates.
>>
>> -mike.
>>
>> 
>> michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
>> sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
>
>
> --
> Martijn van Exel
> http://oegeo.wordpress.com/
> http://openstreetmap.us/
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Charlotte Wolter
927 18th Street Suite A
Santa Monica, California
90403
+1-310-597-4040
techl...@techlady.com
Skype: thetechlady

The Four Internet Freedoms
Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
Freedom to know all the terms of a service, 
particularly any that would affect the first three freedoms.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import

2012-12-17 Thread Steve Coast
Nice.

Suggestions;

- kill water somehow
- Information density at low zoom levels implies that basically everywhere is 
green. But you zoom to the bay area and see this isn't the case. So, change the 
coloring? Modulate it by population density?

Steve

On Dec 16, 2012, at 8:32 PM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> OK this is plain awesome. Great work Mike.
> 
> One note of caution though - the title may suggest that you can just
> go ahead and import away, but folks would still have to follow the
> import guidelines and contact the OSM community at large, come up with
> a solid proposal and discuss that, even if there is no local
> community. I know it says it on the tin, but it's kind of tucked away
> at the bottom.
> 
> Have you looked into full history planet parsing to get a fuller
> picture of editing history? I took a stab at full history user metrics
> some time ago using osmjs;
> https://github.com/mvexel/OSMQualityMetrics/blob/master/UserStats.js -
> this produces one set of metrics for the entire .osh file you feed it
> but it may prove useful for future work. I haven't touched this in a
> while but it should still work :/
> 
> On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Michal Migurski  wrote:
>> I pulled together some of the notes and imagery I've been posting here 
>> recently:
>> 
>>http://www.openstreetmap.us/~migurski/green-means-go/
>> 
>> It's a map of 1km×1km squares covering the continental United States. Green 
>> squares show places where data imports are unlikely to interfere with 
>> community mapping. Raw data is linked at the bottom.
>> 
>> Three things that would make this better:
>> 
>> - Regular updates with archived older versions.
>> - Renders for specific counties, intended for local GIS communities.
>> - Some awareness of full planet history.
>> 
>> The OSM-US server has data for regular updates.
>> 
>> -mike.
>> 
>> 
>> michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
>> sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Martijn van Exel
> http://oegeo.wordpress.com/
> http://openstreetmap.us/
> 
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Imports in Riley county, KS

2012-12-17 Thread Toby Murray
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 7:58 AM, Greg Troxel  wrote:
>
> Based on reaction to the mass buildings import (perceived as way too
> fast, and I agree), I would suggest that you have a 2 week review period
> From the latest time that there is either
>
>  - a change in the processing script
>  - new data being available
>  - a substantive change in the procedure
>
> I think it also makes sense to do the import into the dev server and let
> people look at how it came out there.  If it's not right, no real harm
> done.

Fair enough. The borders and parks data is simple enough (under 90
ways) that I was just going to get it out of the way but I can wait.
And like I said, the address file needs a fair bit of work anyway. I
will definitely send an update when I get closer to having a finished
product there. So at this point I guess nothing is likely to happen
until January.

Toby

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US

2012-12-17 Thread Kai Krueger
Jeff Meyer wrote
> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Serge Wroclawski <

> emacsen@

> > wrote:
> 
> What is stopping these this from happening without a committee?

Probably nothing. Although a committee might not strictly be necessary, it
can give an additional boost of motivation and sense of responsibility to
get through times when the work is necessary but less rewarding. It can also
make things easier (better defined) for people with data to approach the
committee rather than random individuals.

But really, from the OSMF committees I have worked on, they are mostly just
a bunch of people that would be doing things anyway now meet regularly on
irc instead of on an random and adhoc basis. So it really doesn't make much
of a difference and so if it helps with motivation, one might as well.

Overall, I think it is a great idea. It seems clear that in general the US
community is in favor and is (and has been) going down the direction of
large scale imports. As imports are technically challenging and difficult,
it is great to see if technically capable people deeply routed in the
community take charge of the import process to ensure that they are done to
the highest technical standard, instead of just standing on the sidelines
and complaining that imports are bad and leaving the imports to people who
are less familiar with the community standards and tools doing it anyway.
Which leads to the poor execution of imports we have unfortunately seen so
often in the past.

Kai




--
View this message in context: 
http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Imports-and-Mass-Edits-in-the-US-tp5740698p5740730.html
Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US

2012-12-17 Thread Serge Wroclawski
Alex,

You're asking good questions. Instead of trying to answer them point
by point, let me try instead to give you a comprehensive answer.

The community (US and broader worldwide community) have issues with
imports. I won't rehash those issues now- we can do that another time
but what we have are a lot of people, especially older, more respected
members of the community, who are very anti-import.

And on the other side, we have some really nice data resources.

How do we bring these two together in a way that makes sense. And by
make sense, I mean doesn't cause the kinds of problems that imports
have caused in our past, which are well documented.

We've tried documentation, but documentation alone hasn't worked. It's
been partial and difficult to maintain and a bit hap-hazard. For the
maintainers, it's difficult and frustrating and for the importers,
it's vague and a bit confusing. The same goes for "formalizing" the
process, which is just another way of saying documentation, but
sounding more fancy.

I'm suggesting a different approach, one where you have a proposed
importer saying "I have this data", they then take it to a
committee/working group who has been blessed by the community to help
with this process.

They evaluate the data (license, quality, suitability, etc.) and then
if it makes sense, work with the person making the import to get it
done. That can mean documenting it, making sure the data is properly
formatted, figuring out if there are conflation steps necessary to be
taken, etc.

Because this committee will be doing this somewhat frequently, and
with a mandate of proper documentation to be presented to the US
Chapter Board, then documentation will come out of it, born out of the
actual experiences of the group, so it should be more concise, more
practical, and more concise.

The community gets a group of motivated people who want to make
imports happen (where it makes sense). Importers get a process, and
someone to work with. The board (and the US Community, as well as the
larger OSM community) gets accountability.

Does that answer your question?

- Serge

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US

2012-12-17 Thread Jeff Meyer
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Serge Wroclawski  wrote:

> This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data,
> and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback.
>

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Josh Doe  wrote:

> Excellent idea and a good time to do it. Cleaning up the wiki around
> US-related imports should be among the first tasks, and bringing together
> all the lessons learned from imports to date.
> -Josh
>

What is stopping these this from happening without a committee?

I appreciate the interest in reducing import frustration all around, but
there's nothing stopping the wiki from being cleaned up in a way that
fosters group discussion and there's nothing stopping people from turning
lessons learned into well-defined rules.

>From the above example, what's the "appropriate amount of time for the
community to review the data"? That seems like something we could define
without a committee.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have a committee, but I believe process
definition - and not organizational structure is our current biggest issue
with imports.

Serge - thanks for taking the lead in bringing this idea forward.

- Jeff



-- 
Jeff Meyer
Global World History Atlas
www.gwhat.org
j...@gwhat.org
206-676-2347
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US

2012-12-17 Thread Alex Barth
Two more quesions just came to my mind:

- Are there any volunteers who would love to run with guiding imports better?
- Would also love to learn Jason Remillard's perspective of what could be done 
better given that he's in the middle of working on the MassGIS building import 
:) 

On Dec 17, 2012, at 9:42 AM, Serge Wroclawski  wrote:

> Folks,
> 
> I know what it's like to be excited about OSM, and I know what it's
> like to be frustrated with OSM, struggling with low data quality, or
> lack of data altogether.
> 
> And then you get access to a large dataset, and you know that having
> it in OSM would improve things. It would improve the quality, and
> maybe even get people mapping. At the same time, I think many of you
> have seen the damage that bad imports can do.
> 
> The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by the
> import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are frstrated
> by the import process.
> 
> So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide
> imports and large edits.
> 
> This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data,
> and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback.
> 
> When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one of
> the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's
> finally the amount of data and interest to justify it.
> 
> What do folks think?
> 
> - Serge
> 
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Alex Barth
http://twitter.com/lxbarth
tel (+1) 202 250 3633





___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US

2012-12-17 Thread Alex Barth
Interesting idea… trying to wrap my mind around this.

On Dec 17, 2012, at 9:42 AM, Serge Wroclawski  wrote:

> So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide
> imports and large edits.

What specifically would this committee (or point person or whatever it might 
be) offer?

I'm asking this question as I'm thinking that our problem for guiding imports 
properly is quite simply this: time and/or money. Making a new committe won't 
solve either of these problems, but being very specific about what a more 
formal process would bring us could help us find the proper resources (likely 
volunteer resources but maybe we need to think bigger).

> This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data,
> and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback.

I've seen that in the recent Mass GIS import there was broad feedback on the 
proposed import, I'm assuming that a mailing list based feedback process like 
that will continue to be a good idea in the future. What will a committee add 
to this process? Or how will it facilitate it?

Can we describe the problem areas that arise when doing imports in more 
concrete terms so that we can delineate better what such a committee would do 
for us?

Alex Barth
http://twitter.com/lxbarth
tel (+1) 202 250 3633





___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US

2012-12-17 Thread Richard Welty

On 12/17/12 9:42 AM, Serge Wroclawski wrote:

When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one of
the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's
finally the amount of data and interest to justify it.

What do folks think?


i think it's a necessary step, thanks for working to move it forward.

richard


___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US

2012-12-17 Thread Josh Doe
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:42 AM, Serge Wroclawski  wrote:

> [...]
> So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide
> imports and large edits.
> [...]
> What do folks think?
>

Excellent idea and a good time to do it. Cleaning up the wiki around
US-related imports should be among the first tasks, and bringing together
all the lessons learned from imports to date.
-Josh
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


[Talk-us] Imports and Mass Edits in the US

2012-12-17 Thread Serge Wroclawski
Folks,

I know what it's like to be excited about OSM, and I know what it's
like to be frustrated with OSM, struggling with low data quality, or
lack of data altogether.

And then you get access to a large dataset, and you know that having
it in OSM would improve things. It would improve the quality, and
maybe even get people mapping. At the same time, I think many of you
have seen the damage that bad imports can do.

The result is that folks like myself and others are frustrated by the
import process, and folks who have good, useful datasets are frstrated
by the import process.

So I'm proposing a new committee, run by the US Chapter, to help guide
imports and large edits.

This will give step by step guidance to those who want to import data,
and offer the larger community time to review and provide feedback.

When I helped create the US Chapter several years ago, this was one of
the main reasons I thought it should exist, but I think there's
finally the amount of data and interest to justify it.

What do folks think?

- Serge

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Imports in Riley county, KS

2012-12-17 Thread Greg Troxel

Based on reaction to the mass buildings import (perceived as way too
fast, and I agree), I would suggest that you have a 2 week review period
From the latest time that there is either

 - a change in the processing script
 - new data being available
 - a substantive change in the procedure

I think it also makes sense to do the import into the dev server and let
people look at how it came out there.  If it's not right, no real harm
done.


pgpRflQhNR1OI.pgp
Description: PGP signature
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] More on TIGER: Where it's likely safe to import

2012-12-17 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

On 12/17/12 04:02, Michal Migurski wrote:

I pulled together some of the notes and imagery I've been posting here recently:

http://www.openstreetmap.us/~migurski/green-means-go/


I take offense at your wording (on the page): "Where in the United 
States could government imports improve OpenStreetMap?" - you might add 
data to OSM but will you improve OSM? It's not the same, and equating 
the two is a mistake that insiders should not make.


The wording


Green squares show places where data imports are unlikely to interfere with 
community mapping.


is also misleading; it has been shown that imports can very well 
interfere with *future* community mapping of which you would, naturally, 
not find traces in the data you analysed.


The correct wording is:

"Green squares show places where little or no community mapping has 
taken place in the past."


Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us