Re: [Talk-us] Find missing roads plugin - JOSM

[Martijn van Exel]

Mike — There was an incident with the server side of the plugin which we are 
already addressing, and we will look at plugin behavior in these instances as 
well. We will deploy the new server version next week, and the behavior you 
have been noticing should be gone then. So please feel free to re-install ;)

Martijn

> On Dec 9, 2015, at 8:04 PM, Mike N  wrote:
> 
> On 12/9/2015 9:58 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote:
>> Thanks for reporting Mike - I will pass this on to our dev right away so we 
>> can look into it.
>> Any additional contextual information that may help reproduce is more than 
>> welcome.
>> 
>> Martijn
> 
> 
>  I checked it again - the problem has cleared up on the server for now.I 
> think it can be reproduced by either firewalling off access to that server so 
> that a connect takes a long time, otherwise the dev will need to connect to a 
> dummy instance of the server that holds the connection but never responds.
> 
>  It's possible that the plugin function needs to be asynchronous or release 
> some resource so that the rest of JOSM isn't affected by a future server or 
> network problem.
> 
>  Regards,
> 
>  Mike Nice
> 


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Re: [Talk-us] Find missing roads plugin - JOSM

[Mike N]

On 12/9/2015 9:58 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote:

Thanks for reporting Mike - I will pass this on to our dev right away so we can 
look into it.
Any additional contextual information that may help reproduce is more than 
welcome.

Martijn



  I checked it again - the problem has cleared up on the server for 
now.I think it can be reproduced by either firewalling off access to 
that server so that a connect takes a long time, otherwise the dev will 
need to connect to a dummy instance of the server that holds the 
connection but never responds.


  It's possible that the plugin function needs to be asynchronous or 
release some resource so that the rest of JOSM isn't affected by a 
future server or network problem.


  Regards,

  Mike Nice


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Re: [Talk-us] Find missing roads plugin - JOSM

[Martijn van Exel]

Thanks for reporting Mike - I will pass this on to our dev right away so we can 
look into it.
Any additional contextual information that may help reproduce is more than 
welcome.

Martijn

> On Dec 8, 2015, at 6:59 PM, Mike N  wrote:
> 
> I ran into a small problem with the missing roads plugin in JOSM.   When I 
> have it selected, it goes active when I first download something. There is 
> some sort of problem with the missing roads search web service at
> 
> http://missingroads.skobbler.net/missingGeoService
> 
>  Wireshark shows that the server goes into some sort of error sequence with 
> duplicate ACKs and retransmissions.
> 
>  I'm CC'ing the list because JOSM shows some strange behavior when this 
> happens - the missingroads server conversation must first time out (several 
> minutes) before anything can be uploaded or downloaded again. No error 
> message until the timeout - dialogs just disappear with no action.
> 
> 
>  I've uninstalled the plugin for now.
> 
>  Thanks,
> 


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[Talk-us] Find missing roads plugin - JOSM

[Mike N]

I ran into a small problem with the missing roads plugin in JOSM.   When 
I have it selected, it goes active when I first download something. 
There is some sort of problem with the missing roads search web service at


 http://missingroads.skobbler.net/missingGeoService

  Wireshark shows that the server goes into some sort of error sequence 
with duplicate ACKs and retransmissions.


  I'm CC'ing the list because JOSM shows some strange behavior when 
this happens - the missingroads server conversation must first time out 
(several minutes) before anything can be uploaded or downloaded again. 
No error message until the timeout - dialogs just disappear with no action.



  I've uninstalled the plugin for now.

  Thanks,


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Re: [Talk-us] Find missing roads

[Martijn van Exel]

Paul,
 
The GPS data is from Scout (US as well as Skobbler / Global) users. It is 
collected during navigation sessions as well as in Scout Global ‘free drive’ 
mode.

The fact that you see incomplete sets is to do with pretty high thresholds we 
set for the validity of a tile as a whole. We want to prevent that we present 
too many false positives that would make the experience frustrating.

It turns out that Scout is in fact used a fair bit by commercial drivers, so 
you’ll see a bunch of tiles depicting access=private service roads on factory 
lots and so on. There’s not really a great way for us to filter those out up 
front, other than convincing drivers to shut down their nav session before they 
enter a private road ;)

If you look closely you’ll also see traces from trains, airplanes etc. People 
use Scout in some places we had not really imagined! We try to filter these out 
based on speed and we’re improving the algorithm to filter out traces that 
match to railways in the future as well.

Thanks for sharing your observations!
Martijn

> On Sep 30, 2015, at 12:40 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 10:11 AM, Martijn van Exel  > wrote:
> Our OSM team cooked up something new. A missing roads plugin for JOSM. I 
> think it's pretty nice but I would really like to hear what you think. 
>  
> Neat, has potential.
> 
> You can read some more about it on my diary (http://bit.ly/missingroads 
> ) but it's basically what it says on the tin. The 
> plugin will show where we think roads are missing from OSM based on GPS data 
> so you can add them :)
> 
>  Based on whose GPS data from where?  I trust the source in this question is 
> completely halal, kosher, gluten-free, vegan, organic, free-range, 
> all-natural data, but some of the output I'm getting from it is rather odd.  
> Take, for example, this screenshot in JOSM near node 148319848 
>  in my 
> neighborhood.
> 
> 
> ​
> Other than highlighting my own inadvertently selective blindness (what with 
> having not mapped the large and aging chain link fence factory on the 
> northeast corner of the intersection; Brinks behind my favorite QuikTrip 
>  only 
> recently appeared on Bing), I do find two things remarkable about this 
> plugin's output:
> It seems to have picked out an incomplete set based on the paths relative to 
> imagery.
> I have no way of being able to survey the exact location of the GPS output 
> from the plugin from the ground (it's inside a fence factory, of course it's 
> fenced off!), so I can only assume the GPS was located on one of those big 
> diesel-powered forklifts.
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Find missing roads

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> Paul,
>
> The GPS data is from Scout (US as well as Skobbler / Global) users. It is
> collected during navigation sessions as well as in Scout Global ‘free
> drive’ mode.
>
> The fact that you see incomplete sets is to do with pretty high thresholds
> we set for the validity of a tile as a whole. We want to prevent that we
> present too many false positives that would make the experience frustrating.
>
> It turns out that Scout is in fact used a fair bit by commercial drivers,
> so you’ll see a bunch of tiles depicting access=private service roads on
> factory lots and so on. There’s not really a great way for us to filter
> those out up front, other than convincing drivers to shut down their nav
> session before they enter a private road ;)
>

I actually consider this a good thing since private roads are something
that are underserved right now.  It would be nice to be able to enable a
more complete data layer in order to see what was filtered out to avoid a
false positive, however, since it can be hard to determine if a driveway is
the one commonly used or if a driveway with a gate on it is manned or
simply there for the convenience of a fire crew to crash open in an
emergency (is my region the only one where fire trucks are equipped with
ramming bumpers and fire crews prepared to run over fences and locked
gates?)


> If you look closely you’ll also see traces from trains, airplanes etc.
> People use Scout in some places we had not really imagined! We try to
> filter these out based on speed and we’re improving the algorithm to filter
> out traces that match to railways in the future as well.
>

Granted, plane might not be very useful, but for the other modes, having
some kind of color coding to share what vehicle type is being used would be
awesome.

As a Scout user, I'd really find it handy if it had some of the warning
alarms and lane guidance that Osmand has...I'd really love to be able to
hold an Android app up as a real Garmin killer in terms of functionality.
Maybe include a truck mode where you can enter vehicle width, height,
weight and length so those restrictions can be taken into consideration as
well.  Osmand has a truck mode, given the people I've met on the road
driving a truck myself, I think Osmand in general is probably a lot too
fiddly for the segment of "commercial drivers who aren't GIS nerds", which
is only slightly larger than the segment of "commercial drivers who are not
me."
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Re: [Talk-us] Find missing roads

[Martijn van Exel]

Shawn — 

Thanks for sharing your observations, I will take them, together with other 
ideas and reports in this thread, back to the team. We will then see how we can 
improve on what we have.

My response to Paul hopefully answers your question on the ‘partial’ traces. 
It’s a matter of setting pretty aggressive thresholds in order to prevent too 
many false positives.

Martijn

> On Oct 1, 2015, at 12:40 AM, Shawn K. Quinn  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 2015-09-30 at 15:11 +, Martijn van Exel wrote:
>> Hi all, 
>> 
>> 
>> Our OSM team cooked up something new. A missing roads plugin for JOSM.
>> I think it's pretty nice but I would really like to hear what you
>> think. 
>> 
>> 
>> You can read some more about it on my diary
>> (http://bit.ly/missingroads) but it's basically what it says on the
>> tin. The plugin will show where we think roads are missing from OSM
>> based on GPS data so you can add them :)
>> 
>> 
>> Take it for a spin and let me know what you think, what we could
>> improve, or just if you like it!
> 
> First observations:
> 
> I had to use the browser first instead of hunting for an area in JOSM.
> Once I did, I noticed most tiles only showed part of a road, not the
> whole thing.
> 
> The JOSM plugin really should allow selections of multiple types instead
> of restricting one to parking *or* roads *or mixed.
> 
> That said, I see the potential for this to be very useful. I added a
> couple of roads with it in the Houston, TX, area already.
> 
> -- 
> Shawn K. Quinn >
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Find missing roads

[Martijn van Exel]

:D

We may need to add this to the disclaimer: ‘may contain traces of nuts’!

Martijn

> On Sep 30, 2015, at 11:45 PM, Jack Burke  wrote:
> 
> Clearly, your sample contained nuts. 
> 
> 
> On September 30, 2015 2:40:37 PM EDT, Paul Johnson  
> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 10:11 AM, Martijn van Exel  > wrote:
> Our OSM team cooked up something new. A missing roads plugin for JOSM. I 
> think it's pretty nice but I would really like to hear what you think. 
>  
> Neat, has potential.
> 
> You can read some more about it on my diary (http://bit.ly/missingroads 
> ) but it's basically what it says on the tin. The 
> plugin will show where we think roads are missing from OSM based on GPS data 
> so you can add them :)
> 
>  Based on whose GPS data from where?  I trust the source in this question is 
> completely halal, kosher, gluten-free, vegan, organic, free-range, 
> all-natural data, but some of the output I'm getting from it is rather odd.  
> Take, for example, this screenshot in JOSM near node 148319848 
>  in my 
> neighborhood.
> 
> 
> ​
> Other than highlighting my own inadvertently selective blindness (what with 
> having not mapped the large and aging chain link fence factory on the 
> northeast corner of the intersection; Brinks behind my favorite QuikTrip 
>  only 
> recently appeared on Bing), I do find two things remarkable about this 
> plugin's output:
> It seems to have picked out an incomplete set based on the paths relative to 
> imagery.
> I have no way of being able to survey the exact location of the GPS output 
> from the plugin from the ground (it's inside a fence factory, of course it's 
> fenced off!), so I can only assume the GPS was located on one of those big 
> diesel-powered forklifts.
> 
> 
> 
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Typos courtesy of fancy auto-spell technology.
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Re: [Talk-us] Find missing roads

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On Wed, 2015-09-30 at 15:11 +, Martijn van Exel wrote:
> Hi all, 
> 
> 
> Our OSM team cooked up something new. A missing roads plugin for JOSM.
> I think it's pretty nice but I would really like to hear what you
> think. 
> 
> 
> You can read some more about it on my diary
> (http://bit.ly/missingroads) but it's basically what it says on the
> tin. The plugin will show where we think roads are missing from OSM
> based on GPS data so you can add them :)
> 
> 
> Take it for a spin and let me know what you think, what we could
> improve, or just if you like it!

First observations:

I had to use the browser first instead of hunting for an area in JOSM.
Once I did, I noticed most tiles only showed part of a road, not the
whole thing.

The JOSM plugin really should allow selections of multiple types instead
of restricting one to parking *or* roads *or mixed.

That said, I see the potential for this to be very useful. I added a
couple of roads with it in the Houston, TX, area already.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 


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Re: [Talk-us] Find missing roads

[Mike N]

On 9/30/2015 2:40 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:

 I do find two things remarkable about this plugin's
output:

 1. It seems to have picked out an incomplete set based on the paths
relative to imagery.
 2. I have no way of being able to survey the exact location of the GPS
output from the plugin from the ground (it's inside a fence factory,
/of course/ it's fenced off!), so I can only assume the GPS was
located on one of those big diesel-powered forklifts.


  I had a look at the plugin - it does find some interesting things.  I 
find that truckers use the Scout App, and the profile where they drive 
around a huge factory to pick up / drop off a load appears the same as 
if a car is going through a previously unknown subdivision.


  So once the plugin identifies an area of interest, confirm with 
imagery or TIGER for the next step

   - add driveways to a factory
   - Add new road(s) from TIGER
   - Schedule the area for a survey


  The odd cloud of points comes from random inaccuracies of a 
smartphone inside a vehicle, and excluded for a certain distance from 
existing roads to minimize false positives.



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Re: [Talk-us] Find missing roads

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 2:37 PM, Mike N  wrote:

> On 9/30/2015 2:40 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:
>
>>  I do find two things remarkable about this plugin's
>> output:
>>
>>  1. It seems to have picked out an incomplete set based on the paths
>> relative to imagery.
>>  2. I have no way of being able to survey the exact location of the GPS
>> output from the plugin from the ground (it's inside a fence factory,
>> /of course/ it's fenced off!), so I can only assume the GPS was
>> located on one of those big diesel-powered forklifts.
>>
>
>   I had a look at the plugin - it does find some interesting things.  I
> find that truckers use the Scout App, and the profile where they drive
> around a huge factory to pick up / drop off a load appears the same as if a
> car is going through a previously unknown subdivision.
>

Wow, that's both awesome and a little toe-curling, though would be nice if
Scout had some of the alarm and vehicle parameter options of Osmand.


>   So once the plugin identifies an area of interest, confirm with imagery
> or TIGER for the next step
>- add driveways to a factory
>

Done.  Might have to check


>   The odd cloud of points comes from random inaccuracies of a smartphone
> inside a vehicle, and excluded for a certain distance from existing roads
> to minimize false positives.
>

OK, that makes a bit of sense.  Wonder if there's a way to enable that edge
case data to see other routable approaches.
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Re: [Talk-us] Find missing roads

[Jack Burke]

Clearly, your sample contained nuts. 


On September 30, 2015 2:40:37 PM EDT, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 10:11 AM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
>>
>> Our OSM team cooked up something new. A missing roads plugin for
>JOSM. I
>> think it's pretty nice but I would really like to hear what you
>think.
>>
>
>Neat, has potential.
>
>You can read some more about it on my diary
>(http://bit.ly/missingroads)
>> but it's basically what it says on the tin. The plugin will show
>where we
>> think roads are missing from OSM based on GPS data so you can add
>them :)
>>
>
>Based on whose GPS data from where?  I trust the source in this
>question
>is completely halal, kosher, gluten-free, vegan, organic, free-range,
>all-natural data, but some of the output I'm getting from it is rather
>odd.  Take, for example, this screenshot in JOSM near node 148319848
>
>in my
>neighborhood.
>
>
>​
>Other than highlighting my own inadvertently selective blindness (what
>with
>having not mapped the large and aging chain link fence factory on the
>northeast corner of the intersection; Brinks behind my favorite
>QuikTrip
>
>only
>recently appeared on Bing), I do find two things remarkable about this
>plugin's output:
>
>   1. It seems to have picked out an incomplete set based on the paths
>   relative to imagery.
> 2. I have no way of being able to survey the exact location of the GPS
>output from the plugin from the ground (it's inside a fence factory,
>*of
> course* it's fenced off!), so I can only assume the GPS was located on
>   one of those big diesel-powered forklifts.
>
>
>
>
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[Talk-us] Find missing roads

[Martijn van Exel]

Hi all,

Our OSM team cooked up something new. A missing roads plugin for JOSM. I
think it's pretty nice but I would really like to hear what you think.

You can read some more about it on my diary (http://bit.ly/missingroads)
but it's basically what it says on the tin. The plugin will show where we
think roads are missing from OSM based on GPS data so you can add them :)

Take it for a spin and let me know what you think, what we could improve,
or just if you like it!

Martijn
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