Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Role of the Wiki
Hi Charlotte - Welcome thanks for speaking up - I believe many new members share your concerns those concerns should be addressed. I'm glad to see you've signed up for the Welcome Working Group. I'm not sure if the community is ready to implement your suggestions, as they are big big big : ), but I'm hopeful the WG will think of some ways to better serve the needs of newbies and then organize a plan to implement those methods. Looking forward to seeing what comes of it! Thanks, Jeff On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Charlotte Wolter techl...@techlady.comwrote: Martijn, ****Your reply illustrates what is wrong with with OSM's approach to giving members, especially new ones, the tools they need. ****The attitude that that information is there if you are willing to look for it is very flawed. Any organization that wants to be inclusive and to encourage others to participate needs to provide them with information that is definitive and easy to access. Otherwise, OSM runs the danger of being an exclusive club of insiders who know all the secrets, while everyone else is essentially left out of the party. ****Long-term, this will lead to OSM's demise. ****OSM needs to add a lot more people, if it is to meet its goal of making a feature-rich accurate map of the world. But the idea that a newer member should be willing to search through 10 to 12 information sources to find out how to map works completely counter to that goal. ****We need to create a Wiki that everyone can understand, use and reply on. ****I propose that we create a definitive wki, overseen by a working group. This would not mean that the wiki never would change. But it would enable a reliable, source of information for newcomers and, I believe, would greatly improve map quality. Charlotte Wolter X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-RR-Connecting-IP: 97.74.135.183 Delivered-To: techl...@techlady.com X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AswBAGuuv1BZELOWlGdsb2JhbABEgmy7MQgWDgEBAQEJCwkJFAQjgh4BAQEEAQEBNwYBBQoeBAcBAgECAQIGAQYFCwMKHggIAwEdAQUBDAEFARwGEwUPh2oDDwEDCKNhjy2FWg2JTgEFDItCaQuENgOIX4IqhRqDMliBVoEcihuDMBYphDOBTA DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=6APdrewqDZZdLC2COWmiXxbtOSRGw63NurY1elHBvfo=; b=lST4mlqEBn+pAkhJag1xnpsZ1OAkX0Lv2LPCuL37JcwGtcCbPPrIDpaWQ/leEhGRaL 4XD/AB6fXFN4UbSI68Rh8QnAJG8TyOcaQeYwwXmSlM5VPw6ZgduXiY6b1miSA2AYVEDd mpKo3/1JPkE4E860JkpMqNXpboUnX7MG7Yme1RAmq0SROrBpt3kQm7bRu7CAdcNBwCfL j7x+JY9bLiVntNzthGdpg27PEzEAIbwbu0GdV+k3XJQ0LyXXH6HZd0NhcJDUVpHmShwT B1lFEVXZ56PebFnaPne+GF2+zjQi+9VuCSX1T5BT68QlVPMiZTGdXwEjZjyWy8talGf0 D4Bg== From: Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 13:31:09 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: P4ZS_exVjnbwoWPY7qx6us3fr34 To: Scott Rollins organ...@gmail.com Cc: OpenStreetMap Talk Mailing List t...@openstreetmap.org, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com, Jeff Meyer j...@gwhat.org, OpenStreetMap US Talk talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Role of the Wiki X-BeenThere: talk-us@openstreetmap.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 List-Id: OpenStreetMap USA talk-us.openstreetmap.org List-Unsubscribe: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/options/talk-us, mailto:talk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=unsubscribetalk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=unsubscribe List-Archive: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us List-Post: mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org talk-us@openstreetmap.org List-Help: mailto:talk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=helptalk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=help List-Subscribe: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us, mailto:talk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=subscribetalk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=subscribe No place to learn what to do? The wiki may be overwhelming, sometimes outdated and incorrect, or even a vehicle for personal opinions on tagging and whatnot, but there are definitely resources to help you get started. All OSM editors have useful presets for common features, you can't really go wrong with those. The Map Features page[1] describes widely used common tags. learnosm.org is there to guide you through first steps in OSM. And if you're looking for help or if you don't feel confident about your edits, there's these and other mailing lists, IRC, help.osm.org and forum.osm.org. OpenStreetMap US hosts regular Virtual Mappy Hours you can join from anywhere. There's Facebook, LinkedIn and Google+ pages where helpful members are always willing to answer questions. Some of these resources may require a little effort on your part, and they may not all be as well advertised or interconnected as they should be, but you have to realize that OpenStreetMap is eternally a work in progress, run entirely by volunteers who are working really hard to
[Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Role of the Wiki
Martijn, Your reply illustrates what is wrong with with OSM's approach to giving members, especially new ones, the tools they need. The attitude that that information is there if you are willing to look for it is very flawed. Any organization that wants to be inclusive and to encourage others to participate needs to provide them with information that is definitive and easy to access. Otherwise, OSM runs the danger of being an exclusive club of insiders who know all the secrets, while everyone else is essentially left out of the party. Long-term, this will lead to OSM's demise. OSM needs to add a lot more people, if it is to meet its goal of making a feature-rich accurate map of the world. But the idea that a newer member should be willing to search through 10 to 12 information sources to find out how to map works completely counter to that goal. We need to create a Wiki that everyone can understand, use and reply on. I propose that we create a definitive wki, overseen by a working group. This would not mean that the wiki never would change. But it would enable a reliable, source of information for newcomers and, I believe, would greatly improve map quality. Charlotte Wolter X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-RR-Connecting-IP: 97.74.135.183 Delivered-To: techl...@techlady.com X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AswBAGuuv1BZELOWlGdsb2JhbABEgmy7MQgWDgEBAQEJCwkJFAQjgh4BAQEEAQEBNwYBBQoeBAcBAgECAQIGAQYFCwMKHggIAwEdAQUBDAEFARwGEwUPh2oDDwEDCKNhjy2FWg2JTgEFDItCaQuENgOIX4IqhRqDMliBVoEcihuDMBYphDOBTA DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=6APdrewqDZZdLC2COWmiXxbtOSRGw63NurY1elHBvfo=; b=lST4mlqEBn+pAkhJag1xnpsZ1OAkX0Lv2LPCuL37JcwGtcCbPPrIDpaWQ/leEhGRaL 4XD/AB6fXFN4UbSI68Rh8QnAJG8TyOcaQeYwwXmSlM5VPw6ZgduXiY6b1miSA2AYVEDd mpKo3/1JPkE4E860JkpMqNXpboUnX7MG7Yme1RAmq0SROrBpt3kQm7bRu7CAdcNBwCfL j7x+JY9bLiVntNzthGdpg27PEzEAIbwbu0GdV+k3XJQ0LyXXH6HZd0NhcJDUVpHmShwT B1lFEVXZ56PebFnaPne+GF2+zjQi+9VuCSX1T5BT68QlVPMiZTGdXwEjZjyWy8talGf0 D4Bg== From: Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 13:31:09 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: P4ZS_exVjnbwoWPY7qx6us3fr34 To: Scott Rollins organ...@gmail.com Cc: OpenStreetMap Talk Mailing List t...@openstreetmap.org, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com, Jeff Meyer j...@gwhat.org, OpenStreetMap US Talk talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Role of the Wiki X-BeenThere: talk-us@openstreetmap.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 List-Id: OpenStreetMap USA talk-us.openstreetmap.org List-Unsubscribe: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/options/talk-us, mailto:talk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=unsubscribe List-Archive: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us List-Post: mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org List-Help: mailto:talk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=help List-Subscribe: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us, mailto:talk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=subscribe No place to learn what to do? The wiki may be overwhelming, sometimes outdated and incorrect, or even a vehicle for personal opinions on tagging and whatnot, but there are definitely resources to help you get started. All OSM editors have useful presets for common features, you can't really go wrong with those. The Map Features page[1] describes widely used common tags. learnosm.org is there to guide you through first steps in OSM. And if you're looking for help or if you don't feel confident about your edits, there's these and other mailing lists, IRC, help.osm.org and forum.osm.org. OpenStreetMap US hosts regular Virtual Mappy Hours you can join from anywhere. There's Facebook, LinkedIn and Google+ pages where helpful members are always willing to answer questions. Some of these resources may require a little effort on your part, and they may not all be as well advertised or interconnected as they should be, but you have to realize that OpenStreetMap is eternally a work in progress, run entirely by volunteers who are working really hard to keep up with and channel that progress. You are apparently willing to spend your time reading these mailing lists, so why not be constructive about it and either ask questions to help you along in your mapping efforts, or make some actionable suggestions about how we can do a better job explaining mapping and tagging to new contributors? Best, Martijn [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Scott Rollins organ...@gmail.com wrote: I'll just say that, whether bug or feature, this message perfectly encapsulates why I am unwilling to spend my time working on OSM. I don't want to waste my time, and by not having a good place to learn what to do, I have to do a whole lot of work to figure out whether the additions I'm making will be useful or simply clutter up the database. I love
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Role of the Wiki
Hi, On 08.12.2012 20:32, Charlotte Wolter wrote: OSM needs to add a lot more people, if it is to meet its goal of making a feature-rich accurate map of the world. But the idea that a newer member should be willing to search through 10 to 12 information sources to find out how to map works completely counter to that goal. There are a number of good one-stop sources that will at least get you started. You won't be able to edit a complex public transport relation by just reading the beginner's guide but then again that's not necesssary. OSM has worked amazingly well and managed to attract a huge community in a number of countries despite all the flaws you mention, and at least from where I stand the demise of which you speak doesn't immediately threaten. We need to create a Wiki that everyone can understand, use and reply on. I propose that we create a definitive wki, overseen by a working group. You can create a new one or fix the existing one. switch2osm was one effort to take a thematic subset of information and present it in a nicer form outside of the wiki, and you could do something like that for tagging too. The manpower doesn't however just magically materialize by creating a working group - people will have to invest serious time. Plus, you have to make sure you don't kill off the flexibility that has made OSM the success it is - giving newbies the idea that there's a fixed feature catalogue would be wrong. The idea that there could be a true answer/rule for every mapping question is also quite simplistic by the way; I observe differnt mapping styles even in different cities of a relatively small and homogenous country like Germany, and when mapping I try to respect the local rules as far as I can discern them. No document can be authoritative enough to absolve you from the responsibility to look at what your peers are doing. Never underestimate the social aspect of OSM. OSM is not between you, your editing software, and your authoritative tagging guide; it's between you and the other mappers in your area. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Role of the Wiki
On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Charlotte Wolter techl...@techlady.com wrote: Martijn, Your reply illustrates what is wrong with with OSM's approach to giving members, especially new ones, the tools they need. Can we please stick to steps regarding moving forward, rather than blame and doomsaying? Such comments do not bring the conversation forward, but have a negative effect. The attitude that that information is there if you are willing to look for it is very flawed. Any organization that wants to be inclusive and to encourage others to participate needs to provide them with information that is definitive and easy to access. I think all of us are in agreement that good documentation is a worthwhile goal, the issues we encounter are: 1. We have no definitives. There is no oversight committe and those self-appointed committes we do have are often divorced from the actual data. The result is often that documentation aimed at newbies needs to be proscriptive, but documentation within the community needs to be descriptive. 2. Creating high quality documentation is difficult. It's enormously time consuming. Even my off the cuff videos were nothing but that. My intro video series is about two hours in length, but represented a sold month of work. If I had to do it in a written form, it would have taken many man hours. And maintenance of that would be even moreso. Otherwise, OSM runs the danger of being an exclusive club of insiders who know all the secrets, while everyone else is essentially left out of the party. Long-term, this will lead to OSM's demise. If this were true, then we would not be seeing the growth in OSM mappers and adopters. You may feel very strongly, but this comment comes off as a sort of scare tactic, where I'd prefer a more solution oriented discussion. We need to create a Wiki that everyone can understand, use and reply on. Sure, this is a worthwhile goal. I propose that we create a definitive wki, overseen by a working group. This would not mean that the wiki never would change. But it would enable a reliable, source of information for newcomers and, I believe, would greatly improve map quality. Are you proposing a new wiki, other than the existing one, or are you suggesting that there would be a cleanup effort on the existing wiki? If it's the former, then I don't think a wiki is necessarily what you want; instead, you probably want to be contributing to one of the many documentation projects that exist, including proprietary, commercial sources such as Frederik Ramm's high quality book, or Free sources, such as the OSM guide that HOT created. Sources like these are easy to curate, but as someone who put a great deal of effort into making documentation in the form of videos, I will tell you that these sources are often not seen by the general public. If it's the later, then that already happened, and that committee has disbanded, but if you are willing to put the time and effort forth to begin editing the wiki, then I'm sure others would join you and that you would soon have a group of dedicated editors. In other words, I suggest taking on the effort yourself, and seeing what comes of it, then as people take an interest, you can begin to re-formalize the process. - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
