Martijn,
Your reply illustrates what is wrong with with OSM's
approach to giving members, especially new ones, the tools they need.
The attitude that that information is there if you are
willing to look for it is very flawed. Any organization that wants to
be inclusive and to encourage others to participate needs to provide
them with information that is definitive and easy to access.
Otherwise, OSM runs the danger of being an exclusive club of insiders
who know all the secrets, while everyone else is essentially left out
of the party.
Long-term, this will lead to OSM's demise.
OSM needs to add a lot more people, if it is to meet its
goal of making a feature-rich accurate map of the world. But the idea
that a newer member should be willing to search through 10 to 12
information sources to find out how to map works completely counter
to that goal.
We need to create a Wiki that everyone can understand, use
and reply on.
I propose that we create a definitive wki, overseen by a
working group. This would not mean that the wiki never would change.
But it would enable a reliable, source of information for newcomers
and, I believe, would greatly improve map quality.
Charlotte Wolter
X-Cloudmark-Score: 0
X-RR-Connecting-IP: 97.74.135.183
Delivered-To: techl...@techlady.com
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result:
AswBAGuuv1BZELOWlGdsb2JhbABEgmy7MQgWDgEBAQEJCwkJFAQjgh4BAQEEAQEBNwYBBQoeBAcBAgECAQIGAQYFCwMKHggIAwEdAQUBDAEFARwGEwUPh2oDDwEDCKNhjy2FWg2JTgEFDItCaQuENgOIX4IqhRqDMliBVoEcihuDMBYphDOBTA
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date
:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type;
bh=6APdrewqDZZdLC2COWmiXxbtOSRGw63NurY1elHBvfo=;
b=lST4mlqEBn+pAkhJag1xnpsZ1OAkX0Lv2LPCuL37JcwGtcCbPPrIDpaWQ/leEhGRaL
4XD/AB6fXFN4UbSI68Rh8QnAJG8TyOcaQeYwwXmSlM5VPw6ZgduXiY6b1miSA2AYVEDd
mpKo3/1JPkE4E860JkpMqNXpboUnX7MG7Yme1RAmq0SROrBpt3kQm7bRu7CAdcNBwCfL
j7x+JY9bLiVntNzthGdpg27PEzEAIbwbu0GdV+k3XJQ0LyXXH6HZd0NhcJDUVpHmShwT
B1lFEVXZ56PebFnaPne+GF2+zjQi+9VuCSX1T5BT68QlVPMiZTGdXwEjZjyWy8talGf0
D4Bg==
From: Martijn van Exel <m...@rtijn.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 13:31:09 -0700
X-Google-Sender-Auth: P4ZS_exVjnbwoWPY7qx6us3fr34
To: Scott Rollins <organ...@gmail.com>
Cc: OpenStreetMap Talk Mailing List <t...@openstreetmap.org>,
Serge Wroclawski <emac...@gmail.com>, Jeff Meyer <j...@gwhat.org>,
OpenStreetMap US Talk <talk-us@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Role of the Wiki
X-BeenThere: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14
List-Id: OpenStreetMap USA <talk-us.openstreetmap.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/options/talk-us>,
<mailto:talk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us>
List-Post: <mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org>
List-Help: <mailto:talk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us>,
<mailto:talk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=subscribe>
No place to learn what to do? The wiki may be overwhelming, sometimes
outdated and incorrect, or even a vehicle for personal opinions on
tagging and whatnot, but there are definitely resources to help you
get started. All OSM editors have useful presets for common features,
you can't really go wrong with those. The Map Features page[1]
describes widely used common tags. learnosm.org is there to guide you
through first steps in OSM. And if you're looking for help or if you
don't feel confident about your edits, there's these and other mailing
lists, IRC, help.osm.org and forum.osm.org. OpenStreetMap US hosts
regular Virtual Mappy Hours you can join from anywhere. There's
Facebook, LinkedIn and Google+ pages where helpful members are always
willing to answer questions. Some of these resources may require a
little effort on your part, and they may not all be as well advertised
or interconnected as they should be, but you have to realize that
OpenStreetMap is eternally a work in progress, run entirely by
volunteers who are working really hard to keep up with and channel
that progress.
You are apparently willing to spend your time reading these mailing
lists, so why not be constructive about it and either ask questions to
help you along in your mapping efforts, or make some actionable
suggestions about how we can do a better job explaining mapping and
tagging to new contributors?
Best,
Martijn
[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features
On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Scott Rollins <organ...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'll just say that, whether "bug" or "feature," this message perfectly
> encapsulates why I am unwilling to spend my time working on OSM. I don't
> want to waste my time, and by not having a good place to learn
what to do, I
> have to do a whole lot of work to figure out whether the additions I'm
> making will be useful or simply clutter up the database.
>
> I love the concept of OSM, and I'm glad to have the ability to use maps
> based on OSM's work...but the setup of the project leaves me feeling unable
> to usefully contribute.
>
> Scott
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 9:02 AM, Serge Wroclawski <emac...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 8:44 PM, Jeff Meyer <j...@gwhat.org> wrote:
>> > Hi - N00b question here:
>> >
>> > What's the role of the wiki as a source of information in the OSM
>> > community?
>>
>> It's a mixed bag, some of the information is very good and of high
>> quality and some is outdated, and some is of low quality.
>>
>> The problem is that the wiki is not a single entity, but rather a
>> collection of the work of lots of people.
>>
>> And as others have said, those busy mapping often don't have
>> time/interest to document, and those people who love documentation and
>> process aren't always in the thick of the actual mapping- so they're
>> giving proscriptive orders on high, with little thought to reality.
>>
>> > In my brief period here, I've been told things like this:
>> >
>> > - For tags: RTFW
>>
>> Most tags are well documented. Remember, OSM is a folksonomy. Tags are
>> accepted by their use. If a tag is in heavy use, it will show up in
>> taginfo. Some tags are very accepted (highway=residential), and others
>> are controversial and others are just one person's opinion.
>>
>> In the end, "accepted" is a complex term in the OSM context. The
>> tagging list has a process that they follow, but that doesn't mean a
>> lot. I've had tags that I've used and propsed be argued against with
>> vehemence on that list, only to see them later be used by others,
>> appear as defaults in editors, etc. and still AFAIK not be on the
>> wiki, where I've also seen tags by the taggling list be on the wiki
>> but no one actually use.
>>
>> > - For relations: do NOT read the wiki & HELL YES read the wiki
>>
>> Relations are a complex topic. They're generally loved by those who
>> like to talk in theory but not in practice.
>>
>> The problem is they're very hard to work with.
>>
>> > - Imports: the wiki's out of date
>>
>> > (Also - I've received information off IRC that conflicts with both
>> > email &
>> > wiki)
>>
>> As it's been said, everyone will give you their own opinions. No
>> single member of our community is an authoritative source (not even
>> SteveC).
>>
>> > In general, is there a method to when the wiki is or is not relevant?
>>
>> You eventually get a feel for it, but it's hard to know as a newbie, for
>> sure.
>>
>> You can also find info at help.openstreetmap.org.
>>
>> - Serge
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
>
>
>
> --
> Scott Rollins, <organ...@gmail.com>
> Portsmouth, VA
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
--
Martijn van Exel
http://oegeo.wordpress.com/
http://openstreetmap.us/
_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Charlotte Wolter
927 18th Street Suite A
Santa Monica, California
90403
+1-310-597-4040
techl...@techlady.com
Skype: thetechlady
The Four Internet Freedoms
Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that
would affect the first three freedoms.
_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
