Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On 1/14/2012 1:20 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote: As you can see, the situation for highways / interstates is particularly bad in SC / GA. I'd say that is a priority if you want to help out. I've not had any reply back from my 'Decliner'-contact in SC about a public domain option. At this point, it does not look hopeful. He has done a huge amount of TIGER fixup on highways, and stitched up all the county borders in SC to become routable; and did detailed road work centered in the Columbia, SC area. With work, I probably won't have time to do any remapping before April 1. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On 1/13/12 10:49 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: If your own area is clean, please consider helping out in more heavily affected areas. The Capital District of NY is in pretty good shape and i cleaned up the things that were going to be the worst problems already. i know Martijn has a bunch of issues out in the SLC area, so i'm volunteering to take assignments from him to do cleanups out there. i suggest more of us should assess our areas and then either seek help or offer to help. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 10:06 AM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: On 1/13/12 10:49 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: If your own area is clean, please consider helping out in more heavily affected areas. The Capital District of NY is in pretty good shape and i cleaned up the things that were going to be the worst problems already. i know Martijn has a bunch of issues out in the SLC area, so i'm volunteering to take assignments from him to do cleanups out there. Thanks. I'm asking for help on the main infrastructure in particular. I cleaned up most of I-80 but stretches of I-215 and I-15 are still tainted. Also some primary and secondary roads, but unless you have local knowledge I'd rather people not touch those, as I see it as an opportunity to improve them in other ways too. Also, some of the railroads are tainted, I'd love some help with that. i suggest more of us should assess our areas and then either seek help or offer to help. In general, I'd advise to look at the BADMAP layer of Cleanmap. (Yay we can do permalinks now!) http://cleanmap.poole.ch/?zoom=7lat=34.2972lon=-82.53687layers=00B As you can see, the situation for highways / interstates is particularly bad in SC / GA. I'd say that is a priority if you want to help out. -- martijn van exel geospatial omnivore 1109 1st ave #2 salt lake city, ut 84103 801-550-5815 http://oegeo.wordpress.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On 1/14/12 1:20 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote: On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 10:06 AM, Richard Weltyrwe...@averillpark.net wrote: i know Martijn has a bunch of issues out in the SLC area, so i'm volunteering to take assignments from him to do cleanups out there. Thanks. I'm asking for help on the main infrastructure in particular. I cleaned up most of I-80 but stretches of I-215 and I-15 are still tainted. i will start looking at I 15 from the junction with US 89 (between Ogden and SLC) working south, and will also look at the RR tracks that run parallel to I 15. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Kristian M Zoerhoff zoerh...@sdf.org wrote: On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 12:06:37PM -0500, Richard Welty wrote: On 1/13/12 10:49 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: If your own area is clean, please consider helping out in more heavily affected areas. The Capital District of NY is in pretty good shape and i cleaned up the things that were going to be the worst problems already. i know Martijn has a bunch of issues out in the SLC area, so i'm volunteering to take assignments from him to do cleanups out there. i suggest more of us should assess our areas and then either seek help or offer to help. I'm doing this in the Chicago region now. I have stumbled onto one really odd changeset, though, and could use some assistance; it appears the original creator has deleted their OSM account: http://osm.mapki.com/history/way.php?id=3869570 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/143258 Am I reading the history correctly? What do we do in thic case? I think this is an anonymous user. This was an option early in OSM history that was done away with a while ago. They can still agree... but obviously we have no way of contacting them so chances are they will stay undecided. Users are never fully deleted. The closest thing is when the user name is changed to user_x Toby ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
Hi, On 01/14/2012 08:14 PM, Toby Murray wrote: I think this is an anonymous user. This was an option early in OSM history that was done away with a while ago. They can still agree... but obviously we have no way of contacting them Not correct; anonymous users are know to OSM with their e-mail address and user name, it's just that these details are never revealed through the API. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On 1/14/2012 1:20 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote: As you can see, the situation for highways / interstates is particularly bad in SC / GA. I'm still checking the PD option for most of one of the SC decliner's work - I should hear back this weekend. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 1:29 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, On 01/14/2012 08:14 PM, Toby Murray wrote: I think this is an anonymous user. This was an option early in OSM history that was done away with a while ago. They can still agree... but obviously we have no way of contacting them Not correct; anonymous users are know to OSM with their e-mail address and user name, it's just that these details are never revealed through the API. Right, which is exactly what is happening in this case, isn't it? User name is simply not revealed to the deep history viewer or in the /browse pages on osm.org. I was just saying that OSM used to allow users to go anonymous with a checkbox but that option is no longer available. It is however still honored for users who selected it back when it was available. Toby ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
Hi, On 01/15/2012 12:16 AM, Toby Murray wrote: Not correct; anonymous users are know to OSM with their e-mail address and user name, it's just that these details are never revealed through the API. Right, which is exactly what is happening in this case, isn't it? A sorry. I thought that when you said we have no way of contacting them you meant we the project, which would have been wrong - in fact these people *have* all been contacted, most of them twice I believe -, but if you say we the API users then yes, we have no way of contacting them. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
Hi all, The final phase of the license changeover to the Open Database License[1] from our current CC-BY-SA is drawing near. From April 1[2], current OpenStreetMap data will only be available under the new license. This means that all data that was contributed by those who did not agree to the new Contributor Terms (CT) will be removed by then. Although the vast majority of contributors have agreed to the CT, some 'tainted' data is in jeopardy of being lost. Have a look at the CleanMap[3] and Acceptance Statistics[4] tools to get a sense of what we're talking about. There's even significant stretches of interstate among the jeopardized data. There are several things we can do together to minimize the data loss and ensure a smooth changeover to the new license: * Contact mappers who have declined or not agreed yet. Use the OSM Inspektor[5] to identify those users in your area and contact them using the messaging function on the OSM web site. I'd highly recommend to start doing that first. Mappers who are no longer active may have just overlooked the invitation email to accept the CT. Experience shows that a little effort contacting them can yield quick progress. Mappers who have already declined have made that conscious decision, but I'd try contacting them anyway. * Remap data that remains at risk of being removed, following the guidelines on the wiki (see links below). If your own area is clean, please consider helping out in more heavily affected areas. The OSM wiki provides more background and excellent, up to date resources[6][7]. You'll find answers to most questions you may have there. Best, Martijn [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Database_Licence [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Implementation_Plan [3] http://cleanmap.poole.ch/?zoom=5lat=38.94lon=-97.04 [4] http://odbl.poole.ch/ [5] http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=wtfelon=-99.80273lat=39.46504zoom=4 [6] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Remapping [7] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Help_preparing_for_the_license_change -- martijn van exel geospatial omnivore 1109 1st ave #2 salt lake city, ut 84103 801-550-5815 http://oegeo.wordpress.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On 1/13/2012 10:49 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: * Remap data that remains at risk of being removed, following the guidelines on the wiki (see links below). Assuming that the April 1 delete is a smart delete, is it better to wait until afterward? I'm thinking of this - 1 TIGER - agreer 2 Bridges, etc - decliner 3 Attribution - Maxspeed, lanes, etc. - agreer Rather than just deleting the road and starting over from aerial or TIGER, will the April 1 roll back the decliner's edits, thus preserving the agreer's contributions? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Mike N nice...@att.net wrote: On 1/13/2012 10:49 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: * Remap data that remains at risk of being removed, following the guidelines on the wiki (see links below). Assuming that the April 1 delete is a smart delete, is it better to wait until afterward? I'm thinking of this - 1 TIGER - agreer 2 Bridges, etc - decliner 3 Attribution - Maxspeed, lanes, etc. - agreer Rather than just deleting the road and starting over from aerial or TIGER, will the April 1 roll back the decliner's edits, thus preserving the agreer's contributions? I agree that it makes more sense to clean up the map after the deletes from the license change have taken affect. As far as I know, it's still being sorted out exactly which portions of the map will be deleted. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On 1/13/2012 12:39 PM, Peter Dobratz wrote: I agree that it makes more sense to clean up the map after the deletes from the license change have taken affect. Except that the April Fools change will not preserve a lot of the additions (if a non-agreer splits a way, and you add a maxspeed, how is the OSMF to know if the maxspeed should apply to the entire way?). As far as I know, it's still being sorted out exactly which portions of the map will be deleted. Exactly, and this is the big problem with any remapping efforts. Not only may some of it be useless (though, arguably, this whole exercise is), but also some ways that are currently marked clean may be found not to be (through a closer look at splits, merges, etc.). ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: There are several things we can do together to minimize the data loss and ensure a smooth changeover to the new license: * Contact mappers who have declined or not agreed yet. I've heard this theme over and over again, that the majority of undecided users have likely just changed email addresses, and aren't even aware that their contributions are going to be lost. Why don't we try and do a little PR campaign? Make up a press release, and at least try and get some of the nerd-friendly sites (Slashdot comes to mind) to carry a prominent article/post with a catchy headline like Ever contributed to OpenStreetMap? If you don't act by April 1 your work will be lost. Create a simple list of the names of undecided users so people can quickly search for usernames they typically use, in case they forgot. Who knows, this might catch a lot of people. -Josh ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Peter Dobratz pe...@dobratz.us wrote: On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Mike N nice...@att.net wrote: On 1/13/2012 10:49 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: * Remap data that remains at risk of being removed, following the guidelines on the wiki (see links below). Assuming that the April 1 delete is a smart delete, is it better to wait until afterward? I'm thinking of this - 1 TIGER - agreer 2 Bridges, etc - decliner 3 Attribution - Maxspeed, lanes, etc. - agreer Rather than just deleting the road and starting over from aerial or TIGER, will the April 1 roll back the decliner's edits, thus preserving the agreer's contributions? I agree that it makes more sense to clean up the map after the deletes from the license change have taken affect. As far as I know, it's still being sorted out exactly which portions of the map will be deleted. Even if you don't do any pre-emptive remapping, I would still encourage everyone to try and contact a few non-decided mappers. I have had pretty good luck sending a message throught he OSM message system and then finding what I suspect are the same users on various other sites and asking them if they are the owner of the OSM account and asking them to log in and check their messages if they are. I have gotten positive responses via twitter, facebook and flickr resulting in 5 users accepting the new terms. This took both Topeka and Lawrnece from being massive red blobs to being 99% ODbL ready. And at least one of the users made his first changeset in 2 years so that's a nice bonus. As for remapping efforts, if you want to wait for the hammer to drop in your area, that's fine. However I am trying to ensure that at least the major nationwide road networks don't become completley unroutable on April 1st. I think this would be a major blow to the credibility of OSM. I have detailed my remapping efforts as it relates specifically to interstates in a blog post which I will shamelessly plug here: http://ksmapper.blogspot.com/2012/01/license-change-mapping.html Toby ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Peter Dobratz pe...@dobratz.us wrote: [ ... ] it makes more sense to clean up the map after the deletes from the license change have taken affect. I disagree. It's always better to go mapping than to not go mapping. That's the core value of OSM; improve the data. If nothing else, be aware of the license-status of objects while you map. Use the deep-diff history tool and the OSMI license status display while you are doing your everyday mapping. When you find that you have an object to improve; consider the license status and clean it as well. I'm sure that with motivated mappers cleaning as well as mapping, we'll leave little to fix at the end with the scripts. I'm equally sure that motivated mappers will do a better job of making the best data from all appropriate sources. We already know that mappers are better than scripts. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Peter Dobratz pe...@dobratz.us wrote: On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Mike N nice...@att.net wrote: On 1/13/2012 10:49 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: * Remap data that remains at risk of being removed, following the guidelines on the wiki (see links below). Assuming that the April 1 delete is a smart delete, is it better to wait until afterward? I'm thinking of this - 1 TIGER - agreer 2 Bridges, etc - decliner 3 Attribution - Maxspeed, lanes, etc. - agreer Rather than just deleting the road and starting over from aerial or TIGER, will the April 1 roll back the decliner's edits, thus preserving the agreer's contributions? I agree that it makes more sense to clean up the map after the deletes from the license change have taken affect. As far as I know, it's still being sorted out exactly which portions of the map will be deleted. As far as I know there is no authoritative source telling us what data is going to be deleted and how smartly that is going to be done. What I do know is that the License Working Group has started an 'official' campaign in the UK for preparing for the license change and they basically encourage the same steps: contact users, remap. They also list the same resources (CleanMap, OSM Inspektor) to guide remapping efforts. I know that Richard W (LWG) has carried this initiative over to Canada. So as far as authoritativeness goes, this is it. If we wait, we are going to have a map with gaping holes on April 1. I think that is a Very Bad Thing. People and organizations are actually using OpenStreetMap data. Those people and organizations may not be aware of our internal processes, and will be extremely unpleasantly surprised when they download a planet after that date that lacks hundreds of miles of the interstate system. People may even have auto-replication set up for their local OpenStreetMap stacks, depending on those updates to generally be improvements. Imagine their surprise when they're suddenly serving up a significantly inferior map to their customers. So no, I don't think we can afford to wait. -- martijn van exel geospatial omnivore 1109 1st ave #2 salt lake city, ut 84103 801-550-5815 http://oegeo.wordpress.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: I will even pre-emptively delete stuff that I know would otherwise get deleted automatically, because that way I am in control, I see what happens, I see the side effects, and can repair where necessary. The other option is waiting for some bot to do something and then try and find out what happened afterwards. I do that too. There is of course a small chance of the decliner changing his or her mind, so I only delete data that is tainted by a decliner that I have personally been in touch with about the license change and my best judgement is that his / her decision is final. We often improve or remap the work of other mappers without seeking permission first. So contacting mappers in advance of cleaning an area is not required. I check in with no-response accounts as I check an area. I'm not contacting every decliner when I clean objects they touched but I do try to send a note to each non-responder. Decliners have stated their position and I'm not interested in haranguing them. I've found some non-responders who didn't remember that they had contributed data to OSM. And some who have started mapping again. That's awesome. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 12:44:30PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: I do that too. There is of course a small chance of the decliner changing his or her mind, so I only delete data that is tainted by a decliner that I have personally been in touch with about the license change and my best judgement is that his / her decision is final. Speaking of, has anyone talked to balrog-kun yet? I know he was at one point insanely prolific and I often stumble across his data, he's currently a decliner. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 12:44:30PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: I do that too. There is of course a small chance of the decliner changing his or her mind, so I only delete data that is tainted by a decliner that I have personally been in touch with about the license change and my best judgement is that his / her decision is final. Speaking of, has anyone talked to balrog-kun yet? I know he was at one point insanely prolific and I often stumble across his data, he's currently a decliner. You can often find him on #osm irc.oftc.net with a similar handle. While he has declined, he has also granted that his mechanical / mass edits are ODbL-clean. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On 1/13/2012 4:50 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: Speaking of, has anyone talked to balrog-kun yet? I know he was at one point insanely prolific and I often stumble across his data, he's currently a decliner. I don't have a clue what the below statement means, since he hasn't said he'll make his edits Public Domain. http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/balrog-kun All of my contributions* made through this account are ODbL-compatible. You are free to use my contributions under the terms of either CC-By-SA or ODbL* licenses at your preference, and you are free to sublicense my contributions under ODbL 1.0 without attributing me other than as OpenStreetMap contributors. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
If you really want to understand this you will need to ask a lawyer. or start a discussen on talk-legal to me it looks like some political game and splitting hairs about some of the CT details. Considering balrog-kun has a new account where CT is accepted and this declaration then all the data can be adopted by any mapper and declared odbl clean. all the bot edits are already declared odbl clean at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Quick_History_Service#Changeset_Overrides and my interpretation is that the whole user account can be adopted On Jan 13, 2012, at 2:07 PM, Mike N wrote: On 1/13/2012 4:50 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: Speaking of, has anyone talked to balrog-kun yet? I know he was at one point insanely prolific and I often stumble across his data, he's currently a decliner. I don't have a clue what the below statement means, since he hasn't said he'll make his edits Public Domain. http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/balrog-kun All of my contributions* made through this account are ODbL-compatible. You are free to use my contributions under the terms of either CC-By-SA or ODbL* licenses at your preference, and you are free to sublicense my contributions under ODbL 1.0 without attributing me other than as OpenStreetMap contributors. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On 13 January 2012 22:50, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 12:44:30PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: I do that too. There is of course a small chance of the decliner changing his or her mind, so I only delete data that is tainted by a decliner that I have personally been in touch with about the license change and my best judgement is that his / her decision is final. Speaking of, has anyone talked to balrog-kun yet? I know he was at one point insanely prolific and I often stumble across his data, he's currently a decliner. I'm balrog-kun, if you see my data in the US you can add odbl=clean* because I haven't used any non-ODbL sources outside of Europe. But I have used such sources in Europe and so (Richard Weait says..) this is not compatible with CT 1.2.4. This is not the main reason I have declined CT, but in any case all of my own work is ODbL compatible and me saying that probably has more legal value than a half-automatic click-through.. well, unless I'm not balrog-kun, but then I couldn't have put it on the user page. I'm not in Oregon these days which is why no new data is appearing from me. Cheers * provided other authors in the history also license their contributions ODbL, which old LWG minutes say is *not* implied by CT acceptance. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Getting ready for the license change
On 14 January 2012 01:19, Andrew Cleveland evil.salt...@gmail.com wrote: So every TIGER way in the western US will require the odbl=clean tag? No, the bot edits are assumed by LWG to not deserve protection, plus additionally all the related changesets are on Frederik Ramm's whitelist which I think is likely to be used during the license switch should it happen. Cheers ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
