Re: [Talk-us] Odd road / odd structure

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Steve Friedl  wrote:
>
> The Irvine GIS guy told me that Paisley Place also servers as a utility
> easement, which may have impacted some of the design.  These are quite
> pretty little walkways, with a nice gate to enter, it’s just odd that it’s
> a street.
>

Huh?  The only thing I could see that could be remotely construed as a
through walkway is the concrete gutter, which would make a natural break at
the planter that for all practical purposes breaks up the street as a
traffic calming measure, and appears to have barely slowed down the Google
car, much less anyone on foot.


> But regarding the big water catchment surface:
>
>
>
> Ø  Depending on the cant and the surface, it could actually be some sort
> of French drain or infiltration pad designed as potentially an emergency
> helipad.  I, personally, would make no assumption as to what it was without
> at least cursory knowledge of the region's drainage and/or rescue tropes …
>
>
>
> I have some of that cursory knowledge, plus I actually hiked up there and
> checked it out myself – there’s no question that it’s there to collect
> water, drain it into the two cisterns to the southeast, and there’s a water
> tap a little farther to the southwest.
>
>
>
> What you can’t see from the satellite imagery is that it’s at the top of a
> hill, the only water it can possibly collect is rainwater.  It’s also clear
> that this isn’t being used any more, but back in the forties I’m certain it
> was a great place to water your horse.
>
>
>
> I think it would serve as a fine helipad, though these were constructed
> before helicopters were in widespread enough use to be considered for
> that.  I’m going to ask the local fire agency if they have records of using
> that spot for helo.
>

Very interesting edge case; I'd honestly be surprised based on aerial
imagery if the cisterns aren't still in use as at least an emergency water
supply, given that particular stretch of hills' propensity for fire.  It
has a dry climate, some plants that depend on fire for reproduction, and
eucalyptus, which the AU crowd can testify sets itself on fire for like, no
reason.
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Re: [Talk-us] Odd road / odd structure

[Paul Johnson]

On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 10:19 PM, Bill Ricker  wrote:

>
> ​While 'livable street'​
>
> ​is an Urban Design term of at for the concept in some areas, I don't see
> it in OSM wiki or taginfo ? [5] .  OSM seems to use the similar
> highway=living_street  [6]  for low speed limits, pedestrian as primary but
> not exclusive, which doesn't seem to be the case in the grassy-and-walk
> shared front yards shown by the original question on thread here (but
> without Mews/alley in rear).
>

While I agree mostly with this, I don't think the grass is even remotely
intended as a pedestrian facility in this case, but what passes for a front
yard in what would almost certainly be a mews or alleyway.  This particular
execution of the concept would fall into the territory of "I could do this,
but don't expect me to cut the grass ever" and "butthurt HOAs" from
experience, as if literally anyone spends time on the street side of their
home in this kind of layout, much less enough to even remotely care that
someone's lawn is...really anything even remotely close to fire code height.

The living_street examples in OSM wiki appear to be extreme traffic calming
> to restore in-street playability to 1950s suburban, 1930s urban level but
> still tolerate commuter cars returning home and a UPS delivery through the
> street-ball play, which is not the feature exhibited by original post.​


There just plain isn't a direct mapping to the source material (ie, UK)
concept and the US concept at all, and the US is a weirdly variable system,
so there's a lot of approximation in play.  I'm not saying there isn't room
for negotiation for certain concepts (trunk versus motorway versus primary;
service versus living street versus residential are seemingly vi vs emacs
arguments in the American OSM community when these have very clearly
identifiable mappings in the UK OC).  However, I believe that things like
apartment driveways and this particular way are strong candidates for the
closest American equivalent to a living street, in much the same sense that
a trunk maps relatively nicely to surface expressways (New Englanders and
urban midwesterners would call it a parkway, folks in the pacific northwest
would call it an expressway) whereas motorway maps immaculately to roads
that meet the Eisenhower Interstate standard with extremely rare
exception).  And then there's footway/path/cycleway issues.

I may (and probably should) flesh out a blog post with my examples for each
in a US perspective at this point, even if my regions of expertise are
largely Hawaii plus what is part of the NBA Northwest Division or the
Canadian Hockey League's Western League, with a strong specialization at
this point for southern plains situations as a summarization.  I'm not
saying my way is the right way, but we've all run into this "bad congruence
to the original concept" situation with the UK's immaculate equivalences to
OSM tagging by definition that I'd like to compare fleshed out
perspectives...
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Re: [Talk-us] Odd road / odd structure

[Kevin Kenny]

One more try - I'm still getting used to this 'gmail alias' stuff. My
apologies if people are getting multiple copies - I'm getting
bouncemail.

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Steve Friedl  wrote:
> I have some of that cursory knowledge, plus I actually hiked up there and
> checked it out myself – there’s no question that it’s there to collect
> water, drain it into the two cisterns to the southeast, and there’s a water
> tap a little farther to the southwest.

It sounds as if it's a landuse=basin.

None of the basin types on the Wiki seem right for it, though; I might
tag it basin=catchment or some such.

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Re: [Talk-us] Odd road / odd structure

[Steve Friedl]

I appreciate the many thoughtful replies here, thank you.

 

For the street that’s not a street, somebody else had added it as a footway, 
which feels like exactly the right thing anyway. 

 

But, to the Civil Engineer :)

 

*  Ugh...this actually pains me as a civil engineer.  Not for the traffic 
calming effort but the fact that they very evidently designed this whole thing 
with AutoCAD blocks without any thought whatsoever, to the point of running the 
concrete gutter through the green space without so much as considering a 
bollard and french drain instead, amongst many possible alternatives

 

The Irvine GIS guy told me that Paisley Place also servers as a utility 
easement, which may have impacted some of the design.  These are quite pretty 
little walkways, with a nice gate to enter, it’s just odd that it’s a street.

 

But regarding the big water catchment surface:

 

*  Depending on the cant and the surface, it could actually be some sort of 
French drain or infiltration pad designed as potentially an emergency helipad.  
I, personally, would make no assumption as to what it was without at least 
cursory knowledge of the region's drainage and/or rescue tropes …

 

I have some of that cursory knowledge, plus I actually hiked up there and 
checked it out myself – there’s no question that it’s there to collect water, 
drain it into the two cisterns to the southeast, and there’s a water tap a 
little farther to the southwest.

 

What you can’t see from the satellite imagery is that it’s at the top of a 
hill, the only water it can possibly collect is rainwater.  It’s also clear 
that this isn’t being used any more, but back in the forties I’m certain it was 
a great place to water your horse.

 

I think it would serve as a fine helipad, though these were constructed before 
helicopters were in widespread enough use to be considered for that.  I’m going 
to ask the local fire agency if they have records of using that spot for helo.

 

Thanks for the really useful input.

 

Steve

 

From: Paul Johnson [mailto:ba...@ursamundi.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 2:19 PM
To: Steve Friedl <st...@unixwiz.net>
Cc: OpenStreetMap talk-us list <talk-us@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Odd road / odd structure

 

 

 

On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Steve Friedl <st...@unixwiz.net 
<mailto:st...@unixwiz.net> > wrote:

Hi all,

 

I have two things that I just don’t quite know how to map.  Sorry that I have 
to provide Google Maps views to demonstrate.

 

1)  How does one represent a named street which is really a greenbelt: 
never been drivable, was assigned a name just to allow attaching a street name 
to the houses on either side.

 

Example: In Irvine California there’s a residential area shown here:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7298257,-117.7572128,19z

 

I’m referring to Paisley Place, which is shown as a named alley connecting 
Garden Gate Lane and Winslow Lane.

 

After surveying the area and seeing that the City of Irvine GIS showed Paisley 
as that greenbelt, I reported it as an error (as I’ve done dozens of times for 
other things), but the very helpful GIS manager reported that this is correct 
(but certainly odd), and the two street-like things on either side of it are 
just unnamed alleys.

 

How do I represent this in OSM?  It’s not a street that doesn’t allow access, 
it’s not really even a street!

 

I wouldn't really call that a greenbelt.  In the American context, this is an 
edge case, big time.  I would lean towards livable_street, since there's no 
separate sidewalk, no reasonable expectation you're going to go more than 
cycleway speed, and the main entries to buildings are on it.  Given my 
experience with most developments, if they literally had another street with 
the front doors, this would be highway=service, service=alley instead of being 
a worst-of-both-worlds example of trying to make a pedestrian and bicycle 
friendly space in a car-centric area by force...I don't even know what to call 
the planter midway down anything but stupid, though I would probably go 
barrier=block, vehicle=no, though it seems we have evidence that the Google Car 
has just squeezed between the trees (and there's obvious evidence that 
literally anyone that isn't a full-track vehicle and some that are go through 
there anyway).  And I don't think there's anything legally stopping you from 
stepping over the planter on foot.

 

Ugh...this actually pains me as a civil engineer.  Not for the traffic calming 
effort but the fact that they very evidently designed this whole thing with 
AutoCAD blocks without any thought whatsoever, to the point of running the 
concrete gutter through the green space without so much as considering a 
bollard and french drain instead, amongst many possible alternatives..

 

In the Santa Ana Mountains in Southern California, the satellite views show 
something that looks exactly like a helipad:

 

https://www.goo

Re: [Talk-us] Odd road / odd structure

[Rihards]

On 2016.05.25. 06:19, Bill Ricker wrote:


On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 5:18 PM, Paul Johnson > wrote:

In the American context, this is an edge case, big time.
​

​What is old is new again.

Officer housing at old Fort Hamilton (Brooklyn, the Narrows) were laid
out with a Livable Street design before that was a name.  (They had
service alley or mews in the rear and grassy forecourts. The officers
were expected to walk to work on-base in the 1880's - 1910's.) I am
familiar with this because my favorite (maternal) uncle's favorite
(maternal) uncle lived off-post/on-post in old Officers Quarters after
the base perimeter had contracted but it was still Officer country
(1928-1930) ... he lived on the eponymous ​Hamilton Way [1] which is
coded highway=footway [2] , which page on our wiki suggests
highway=pedestrian [3] if wider, and cross-references [4] Path Controversy.
(Per OSM, the house still stands.)

​​ I would lean towards livable_street, since there's no separate
sidewalk, no reasonable expectation you're going to go more than
cycleway speed, and the main entries to buildings are on it​


​While 'livable street'​
​is an Urban Design term of at for the concept in some areas, I don't
see it in OSM wiki or taginfo ? [5] .  OSM seems to use the similar
highway=living_street  [6]  for low speed limits, pedestrian as primary
but not exclusive, which doesn't seem to be the case in the
grassy-and-walk shared front yards shown by the original question on
thread here (but without Mews/alley in rear). The living_street examples
in OSM wiki appear to be extreme traffic calming to restore in-street
playability to 1950s suburban, 1930s urban level but still tolerate
commuter cars returning home and a UPS delivery through the street-ball
play, which is not the feature exhibited by original post.​


to give a different perspective, that looks like a highway=service from 
both sides, with a footway potentially connecting them. if desired, 
service=driveway could be added.


living_street in most european countries is an officially designated 
area with a sign like this :

http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/QNfHdIXQdxCA8Cy1eSphxw/photo

it usually means maxspeed=20 km/h and giving way to pedestrians/cyclists 
(everywhere)



​[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/5677149 ​
[2] ​http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway=footway?uselang=en-US ​
[3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpedestrian
[4] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Path_controversy
[5a] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=livable#values
[5b] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=livable_street#values
[5c] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=pedestrian#values
[6a] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway=living_street
[6b]
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:living_street%3Dyes

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Re: [Talk-us] Odd road / odd structure

[Bill Ricker]

On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 5:18 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> In the American context, this is an edge case, big time.
> ​
>

​What is old is new again.

Officer housing at old Fort Hamilton (Brooklyn, the Narrows) were laid out
with a Livable Street design before that was a name.  (They had service
alley or mews in the rear and grassy forecourts. The officers were expected
to walk to work on-base in the 1880's - 1910's.) I am familiar with this
because my favorite (maternal) uncle's favorite (maternal) uncle lived
off-post/on-post in old Officers Quarters after the base perimeter had
contracted but it was still Officer country (1928-1930) ... he lived on the
eponymous ​Hamilton Way [1] which is coded highway=footway [2] , which page
on our wiki suggests highway=pedestrian [3] if wider, and cross-references
[4] Path Controversy.
(Per OSM, the house still stands.)

​​ I would lean towards livable_street, since there's no separate sidewalk,
> no reasonable expectation you're going to go more than cycleway speed, and
> the main entries to buildings are on it​
>

​While 'livable street'​

​is an Urban Design term of at for the concept in some areas, I don't see
it in OSM wiki or taginfo ? [5] .  OSM seems to use the similar
highway=living_street  [6]  for low speed limits, pedestrian as primary but
not exclusive, which doesn't seem to be the case in the grassy-and-walk
shared front yards shown by the original question on thread here (but
without Mews/alley in rear). The living_street examples in OSM wiki appear
to be extreme traffic calming to restore in-street playability to 1950s
suburban, 1930s urban level but still tolerate commuter cars returning home
and a UPS delivery through the street-ball play, which is not the feature
exhibited by original post.​

​[1]  http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/5677149 ​
[2] ​http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway=footway?uselang=en-US ​
[3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpedestrian
[4] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Path_controversy
[5a] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=livable#values
[5b] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=livable_street#values
[5c] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=pedestrian#values
[6a] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway=living_street
[6b]
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:living_street%3Dyes
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Re: [Talk-us] Odd road / odd structure

[Paul Johnson]

On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Steve Friedl  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I have two things that I just don’t quite know how to map.  Sorry that I
> have to provide Google Maps views to demonstrate.
>
>
>
> 1)  How does one represent a named street which is really a
> greenbelt: never been drivable, was assigned a name just to allow attaching
> a street name to the houses on either side.
>
>
>
> Example: In Irvine California there’s a residential area shown here:
>
>
>
> https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7298257,-117.7572128,19z
>
>
>
> I’m referring to Paisley Place, which is shown as a named alley connecting
> Garden Gate Lane and Winslow Lane.
>
>
>
> After surveying the area and seeing that the City of Irvine GIS showed
> Paisley as that greenbelt, I reported it as an error (as I’ve done dozens
> of times for other things), but the very helpful GIS manager reported that
> this is correct (but certainly odd), and the two street-like things on
> either side of it are just unnamed alleys.
>
>
>
> How do I represent this in OSM?  It’s not a street that doesn’t allow
> access, it’s not really even a street!
>

I wouldn't really call that a greenbelt.  In the American context, this is
an edge case, big time.  I would lean towards livable_street, since there's
no separate sidewalk, no reasonable expectation you're going to go more
than cycleway speed, and the main entries to buildings are on it.  Given my
experience with most developments, if they literally had another street
with the front doors, this would be highway=service, service=alley instead
of being a worst-of-both-worlds example of trying to make a pedestrian and
bicycle friendly space in a car-centric area by force...I don't even know
what to call the planter midway down anything but stupid, though I would
probably go barrier=block, vehicle=no, though it seems we have evidence
that the Google Car has just squeezed between the trees (and there's
obvious evidence that literally anyone that isn't a full-track vehicle and
some that are go through there anyway).  And I don't think there's anything
legally stopping you from stepping over the planter on foot.

Ugh...this actually pains me as a civil engineer.  Not for the traffic
calming effort but the fact that they very evidently designed this whole
thing with AutoCAD blocks without any thought whatsoever, to the point of
running the concrete gutter through the green space without so much as
considering a bollard and french drain instead, amongst many possible
alternatives..

In the Santa Ana Mountains in Southern California, the satellite views show
> something that looks exactly like a helipad:
>
>
>
> https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7875181,-117.5805174,419m/data=!3m1!1e3
>
>
>
> But it’s not. That whole huge surface – paved in asphalt – is tilted
> slightly so that rainwater water will collect and fill the two cisterns to
> the left (zooming in you can barely see the pipe from the big pad to the
> cisterns.
>
>
>
> I cannot find anything that’s even close to describing what this is, but
> it’s so prominent on the maps (and interesting to visit) that I seems like
> it should be there even if to make note that it’s not a helipad.
>

Depending on the cant and the surface, it could actually be some sort of
French drain or infiltration pad designed as potentially an emergency
helipad.  I, personally, would make no assumption as to what it was without
at least cursory knowledge of the region's drainage and/or rescue tropes,
since along those lines here, retention ponds and rooftop drainage cisterns
are far more common (as areas where there's been a petrolium well blowout
has probably rendered much of the groundwater and surface runoff unsafe,
making raingutter cisterns the norm for *household* tapwater in those
cases, often with an aerial visible collection and filtration system
apparent, with any nearby surface ponds that might have been used for
irrigation or drinking water prior to the well blowout instead used for
wastewater collection).
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Re: [Talk-us] Odd road / odd structure

[Martijn van Exel]

Hi Steve, 

It looks like there is garage access, so I would tag it highway=service, 
possibly with an appropriate access= tag if access is restricted. 
https://bit.ly/1WNyjdd 

If you are referring to the foot access to the west of that, I’d do 
highway=footway (perhaps with bicycle=yes if appropriate) and name it Paisley 
Place as well, if that name refers to that side of the homes also.

Martijn

> On May 23, 2016, at 10:41 AM, Steve Friedl  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
>  
> I have two things that I just don’t quite know how to map.  Sorry that I have 
> to provide Google Maps views to demonstrate.
>  
> 1)  How does one represent a named street which is really a greenbelt: 
> never been drivable, was assigned a name just to allow attaching a street 
> name to the houses on either side.
>  
> Example: In Irvine California there’s a residential area shown here:
>  
> https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7298257,-117.7572128,19z 
> 
>  
> I’m referring to Paisley Place, which is shown as a named alley connecting 
> Garden Gate Lane and Winslow Lane.
>  
> After surveying the area and seeing that the City of Irvine GIS showed 
> Paisley as that greenbelt, I reported it as an error (as I’ve done dozens of 
> times for other things), but the very helpful GIS manager reported that this 
> is correct (but certainly odd), and the two street-like things on either side 
> of it are just unnamed alleys.
>  
> How do I represent this in OSM?  It’s not a street that doesn’t allow access, 
> it’s not really even a street!
>  
> 2)  How do I represent a parking-lot-sized area that’s intended to 
> collect rainwater that fills a cistern?
>  
> In the Santa Ana Mountains in Southern California, the satellite views show 
> something that looks exactly like a helipad:
>  
> https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7875181,-117.5805174,419m/data=!3m1!1e3 
> 
>  
> But it’s not. That whole huge surface – paved in asphalt – is tilted slightly 
> so that rainwater water will collect and fill the two cisterns to the left 
> (zooming in you can barely see the pipe from the big pad to the cisterns.
>  
> I cannot find anything that’s even close to describing what this is, but it’s 
> so prominent on the maps (and interesting to visit) that I seems like it 
> should be there even if to make note that it’s not a helipad.
>  
> Thanks,
>  
> Steve – who hopes the links above work.
> --- 
> Stephen J Friedl  | Security Consultant | UNIX Wizard | 714 345-4571
> st...@unixwiz.net  | Southern California | Windows 
> Guy |  unixwiz.net 
>  
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Re: [Talk-us] Odd road / odd structure

[Jack Burke]

For Paisley Place, maybe: 

abandoned:highway = residential 
access = no
name = Paisley Place
note = Your description of what the GIS people say. 

Since it needs to exist for addresses, it needs to be there. 


For the reservoir: 

landuse = reservoir 
intermittent = yes

-- 
Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology

On May 23, 2016 12:41:17 PM EDT, Steve Friedl  wrote:
>Hi all,
>
> 
>
>I have two things that I just don't quite know how to map.  Sorry that
>I
>have to provide Google Maps views to demonstrate.
>
> 
>
>1)  How does one represent a named street which is really a
>greenbelt:
>never been drivable, was assigned a name just to allow attaching a
>street
>name to the houses on either side.
>
> 
>
>Example: In Irvine California there's a residential area shown here:
>
> 
>
>https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7298257,-117.7572128,19z
>
> 
>
>I'm referring to Paisley Place, which is shown as a named alley
>connecting
>Garden Gate Lane and Winslow Lane.
>
> 
>
>After surveying the area and seeing that the City of Irvine GIS showed
>Paisley as that greenbelt, I reported it as an error (as I've done
>dozens of
>times for other things), but the very helpful GIS manager reported that
>this
>is correct (but certainly odd), and the two street-like things on
>either
>side of it are just unnamed alleys.
>
> 
>
>How do I represent this in OSM?  It's not a street that doesn't allow
>access, it's not really even a street!
>
> 
>
>2)  How do I represent a parking-lot-sized area that's intended to
>collect rainwater that fills a cistern?
>
> 
>
>In the Santa Ana Mountains in Southern California, the satellite views
>show
>something that looks exactly like a helipad:
>
> 
>
>https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7875181,-117.5805174,419m/data=!3m1!1e3
>
> 
>
>But it's not. That whole huge surface - paved in asphalt - is tilted
>slightly so that rainwater water will collect and fill the two cisterns
>to
>the left (zooming in you can barely see the pipe from the big pad to
>the
>cisterns.
>
> 
>
>I cannot find anything that's even close to describing what this is,
>but
>it's so prominent on the maps (and interesting to visit) that I seems
>like
>it should be there even if to make note that it's not a helipad.
>
> 
>
>Thanks,
>
> 
>
>Steve - who hopes the links above work.
>
>--- 
>
>Stephen J Friedl  | Security Consultant | UNIX Wizard | 714 345-4571
>
>  st...@unixwiz.net | Southern California |
>Windows Guy |  unixwiz.net
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>
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[Talk-us] Odd road / odd structure

[Steve Friedl]

Hi all,

 

I have two things that I just don't quite know how to map.  Sorry that I
have to provide Google Maps views to demonstrate.

 

1)  How does one represent a named street which is really a greenbelt:
never been drivable, was assigned a name just to allow attaching a street
name to the houses on either side.

 

Example: In Irvine California there's a residential area shown here:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7298257,-117.7572128,19z

 

I'm referring to Paisley Place, which is shown as a named alley connecting
Garden Gate Lane and Winslow Lane.

 

After surveying the area and seeing that the City of Irvine GIS showed
Paisley as that greenbelt, I reported it as an error (as I've done dozens of
times for other things), but the very helpful GIS manager reported that this
is correct (but certainly odd), and the two street-like things on either
side of it are just unnamed alleys.

 

How do I represent this in OSM?  It's not a street that doesn't allow
access, it's not really even a street!

 

2)  How do I represent a parking-lot-sized area that's intended to
collect rainwater that fills a cistern?

 

In the Santa Ana Mountains in Southern California, the satellite views show
something that looks exactly like a helipad:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7875181,-117.5805174,419m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

But it's not. That whole huge surface - paved in asphalt - is tilted
slightly so that rainwater water will collect and fill the two cisterns to
the left (zooming in you can barely see the pipe from the big pad to the
cisterns.

 

I cannot find anything that's even close to describing what this is, but
it's so prominent on the maps (and interesting to visit) that I seems like
it should be there even if to make note that it's not a helipad.

 

Thanks,

 

Steve - who hopes the links above work.

--- 

Stephen J Friedl  | Security Consultant | UNIX Wizard | 714 345-4571

  st...@unixwiz.net | Southern California |
Windows Guy |  unixwiz.net

 

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