Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Mike N]

On 7/15/2012 6:13 AM, Mike N wrote:


   The Columbia, SC area is about to be burned by Sherman's redactor.
Any help for the 'roads' will be welcome.


 A link:

http://cleanmap.poole.ch/?zoom=10&lat=34.04041&lon=-81.07156&layers=00B

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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Mike N]

On 7/13/2012 6:04 AM, Alexander Jones wrote:

Hello.

I have plently of spare time, and my home (San Antonio) has almost no
remapping to do. Where is my help most needed? I'm adept with relations, and
I practically redrew almost all of Visalia, CA. (100,000+ people) No GPS,
though. :(



  The Columbia, SC area is about to be burned by Sherman's redactor. 
Any help for the 'roads' will be welcome.


  I plan to review all the Interstate highways after readaction, so 
don't worry about the nodes or exits on the Interstate highways.


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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Alexander Jones]

Hello.

I have plently of spare time, and my home (San Antonio) has almost no 
remapping to do. Where is my help most needed? I'm adept with relations, and 
I practically redrew almost all of Visalia, CA. (100,000+ people) No GPS, 
though. :(

Alexander


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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Richard Welty]

On 7/12/12 4:24 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

On 7/12/2012 11:27 AM, Clay Smalley wrote:

I like this idea. That would encourage more people to TIGER-review
streets, as highway=road shows up pretty ugly on Mapnik, and people like
getting rid of ugly. What would be the drawbacks of doing this? It seems
like there would be some but I can't think of any.


The problem is that you can easily see that any old subdivision street 
is residential on an aerial, but you shouldn't remove tiger:reviewed 
unless you've verified the name.
another issue is that highway=road isn't handled consistently by data 
consumers. yes, it
shows up ugly on mapnik, but as far as i know, it's discarded by mkgmap, 
and i use Dave
Hansen's garmin maps of north america all the time to support my 
mapping; having these

roads disappear from the garmin would be a significant hindrance.

also, while mappers certainly are attracted to fixing up ugly, there are 
huge swaths of the
US which won't get fixed anytime soon, as there's no one working a lot 
of rural areas.
if this change is done, a lot of the US will turn ugly and stay that way 
for a while.


richard


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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Robert Kaiser]

Martijn van Exel schrieb:

I agree that residential is not the right classification, but
'unclassified' would be better than 'road', at least for halfway
built-up areas.


Well, "highway=road" means "road without classification" while 
"highway=unclassified" is an actual classification (yes, confusing) and 
actually means "minor roads in the public road network which are not 
residential and of a lower classification than tertiary".


That's why I proposed highway=road as it basically means "unknown 
classification". A lot of those I have encountered are better tagged as 
tracks than either residential or unclassified, but that needs review of 
people actually looking at some local info.


Robert Kaiser


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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Martijn van Exel]

Hi,

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Mike N  wrote:
>>
>> On 7/12/2012 11:26 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>> I like that idea, especially given the high number of obviously not
>>> urban roads that would be better off tagged as track or unclassified
>>> getting counted as residential (a more urban classification).  I'd be
>>> willing to extend this idea to any way tagged tiger:reviewed=no still,
>>> regardless of version number.
>>
>>
>> This seems like pointing a sledge hammer at an anthill.  We would actually
>> consider changing 99% of the roads, some of which have been reviewed for
>> name, type, and alignment but not for distance (I have done many of these),
>> just to address a 1% problem?
>
>
> I would hazard to guess that this is closer to being a 85% problem, given
> the sheer scale of the country and how few roads are actually urban in
> nature or paved at all.
>

As per June 13, about 44% of the ways in the US have tiger:cfcc=A41
(or 79% of ways that have the tiger:cfcc tag):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkZlPbUaMXdGdFE3TEhkOWw0RkRSOUg1VndxWjlfSEE

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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Kevin Kenny]

On 07/12/2012 12:01 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:

I'm still working on ones that should have been tagged
highway=imaginary. Ones that go over cliffs, splash along streambeds, or
otherwise do not and cannot ever have existed. (And I wonder just
how some of those made it into TIGER in the first place!)

--
73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin

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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Nathan Edgars II]

On 7/12/2012 11:27 AM, Clay Smalley wrote:

I like this idea. That would encourage more people to TIGER-review
streets, as highway=road shows up pretty ugly on Mapnik, and people like
getting rid of ugly. What would be the drawbacks of doing this? It seems
like there would be some but I can't think of any.


The problem is that you can easily see that any old subdivision street 
is residential on an aerial, but you shouldn't remove tiger:reviewed 
unless you've verified the name.


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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Mike N]

On 7/12/2012 11:43 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

I was wondering if something likehttp://frontdoor.cloudapp.net/  might be a
fun solution. Present some aerial imagery, the OSM data, and say "is this a
track or a road?". Kind of like HotOrNot for the OSM generation. (For extra
efficiency, have a button for "it's a track and in fact_everything_  on this
view is a track"... and a link to open it in P2 (or whatever) for the really
curious.)



  I like the idea of this type of app in general.   However armchair 
classification of tracks locally here will often fail, even with the 
improved Bing imagery.  They often curve about while being 90% obscured 
by tree cover, and cannot be distinguished from paved roads.


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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Mike N  wrote:

> On 7/12/2012 11:26 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
>
>> I like that idea, especially given the high number of obviously not
>> urban roads that would be better off tagged as track or unclassified
>> getting counted as residential (a more urban classification).  I'd be
>> willing to extend this idea to any way tagged tiger:reviewed=no still,
>> regardless of version number.
>>
>
> This seems like pointing a sledge hammer at an anthill.  We would actually
> consider changing 99% of the roads, some of which have been reviewed for
> name, type, and alignment but not for distance (I have done many of these),
> just to address a 1% problem?
>

I would hazard to guess that this is closer to being a 85% problem, given
the sheer scale of the country and how few roads are actually urban in
nature or paved at all.
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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Mike N]

On 7/12/2012 11:26 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:

I like that idea, especially given the high number of obviously not
urban roads that would be better off tagged as track or unclassified
getting counted as residential (a more urban classification).  I'd be
willing to extend this idea to any way tagged tiger:reviewed=no still,
regardless of version number.


This seems like pointing a sledge hammer at an anthill.  We would 
actually consider changing 99% of the roads, some of which have been 
reviewed for name, type, and alignment but not for distance (I have done 
many of these), just to address a 1% problem?


  It's a big problem at the edge of rural areas, but these should be 
surveyed firsthand or corrected by better public records.   The outer 
rural tracks change faster than normal highways by becoming abandoned 
and overgrown.


  A few of the TIGER roads were correctly set as 'track' by the source. 
  If we're saying it's to prevent incorrect routing, the result will 
either be that everything becomes un-routable until corrected, or that 
the same routing geometry and problems will still apply.


  Even limiting the changes to A4* is still too broad.   Others will be 
tempted to go back and undo the change with bots.


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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Martijn van Exel]

Hi,

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 6:29 AM, Robert Kaiser  wrote:
>>
>> Richard Weait schrieb:
>>
>>> Larger cleanups can be imposing at first glance.  Other mappers will
>>> understand that a single mapper can't do everything at once, so you
>>> shouldn't be criticized if you fix a few things but not others.
>>
>>
>> After having spent another vacation in the US (in Northern California this
>> time), I started wondering if there should be a mass edit to switch all the
>> highway=residential (or other highway values set en masse and mostly wrong)
>> that are from TIGER imports and still on v1 objects to highway=road instead.
>
>
> I like that idea, especially given the high number of obviously not urban
> roads that would be better off tagged as track or unclassified getting
> counted as residential (a more urban classification).  I'd be willing to
> extend this idea to any way tagged tiger:reviewed=no still, regardless of
> version number.
>

I personally hardly ever touch that tag unless I strip TIGER tags for
another reason. Can we assume that most people will?

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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Richard Fairhurst]

Robert Kaiser wrote:
> After having spent another vacation in the US (in Northern 
> California this time), I started wondering if there should be 
> a mass edit to switch all the highway=residential (or other 
> highway values set en masse and mostly wrong) that are from 
> TIGER imports and still on v1 objects to highway=road instead.

Funny you should say that. I was doing some backwoods editing recently and
wondering about the same problem.

I was wondering if something like http://frontdoor.cloudapp.net/ might be a
fun solution. Present some aerial imagery, the OSM data, and say "is this a
track or a road?". Kind of like HotOrNot for the OSM generation. (For extra
efficiency, have a button for "it's a track and in fact _everything_ on this
view is a track"... and a link to open it in P2 (or whatever) for the really
curious.)

This sort of game-like edit, basically harnessing people's boredom, could be
a nice way to get the casual user into OSM.

cheers
Richard



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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Martijn van Exel]

Hi,

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Robert Kaiser  wrote:
> Richard Weait schrieb:
>
>> Larger cleanups can be imposing at first glance.  Other mappers will
>> understand that a single mapper can't do everything at once, so you
>> shouldn't be criticized if you fix a few things but not others.
>
>
> After having spent another vacation in the US (in Northern California this
> time), I started wondering if there should be a mass edit to switch all the
> highway=residential (or other highway values set en masse and mostly wrong)
> that are from TIGER imports and still on v1 objects to highway=road instead.
> The reason for this is that we have a ton of dirt/gravel roads through the
> woods that are mapped as "residential" and therefore are highly misleading
> for both routing services as well as people looking at a map and trying to
> figure out which way to go "manually".
> Note that this is just an idea, and I wouldn't be the one actually doing
> this as I have no ideas about how to do mass edits in a good way. I just
> wanted to bring this up with the US community.
> AFAIK, the highway=road tag for "unspecified road, needing someone to review
> and switch to correct classification" did not exist back when those imports
> were made initially and would be the right choice for such imports nowadays.
>
> Robert Kaiser

I agree that residential is not the right classification, but
'unclassified' would be better than 'road', at least for halfway
built-up areas.
But I could live with turning highway=residential into highway=road
for all TIGER A4* roads that are still at v1.

Martijn

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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Clay Smalley]

I like this idea. That would encourage more people to TIGER-review streets,
as highway=road shows up pretty ugly on Mapnik, and people like getting rid
of ugly. What would be the drawbacks of doing this? It seems like there
would be some but I can't think of any.

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Robert Kaiser  wrote:

> Richard Weait schrieb:
>
>  Larger cleanups can be imposing at first glance.  Other mappers will
>> understand that a single mapper can't do everything at once, so you
>> shouldn't be criticized if you fix a few things but not others.
>>
>
> After having spent another vacation in the US (in Northern California this
> time), I started wondering if there should be a mass edit to switch all the
> highway=residential (or other highway values set en masse and mostly wrong)
> that are from TIGER imports and still on v1 objects to highway=road instead.
> The reason for this is that we have a ton of dirt/gravel roads through the
> woods that are mapped as "residential" and therefore are highly misleading
> for both routing services as well as people looking at a map and trying to
> figure out which way to go "manually".
> Note that this is just an idea, and I wouldn't be the one actually doing
> this as I have no ideas about how to do mass edits in a good way. I just
> wanted to bring this up with the US community.
> AFAIK, the highway=road tag for "unspecified road, needing someone to
> review and switch to correct classification" did not exist back when those
> imports were made initially and would be the right choice for such imports
> nowadays.
>
> Robert Kaiser
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 6:29 AM, Robert Kaiser  wrote:

> Richard Weait schrieb:
>
>  Larger cleanups can be imposing at first glance.  Other mappers will
>> understand that a single mapper can't do everything at once, so you
>> shouldn't be criticized if you fix a few things but not others.
>>
>
> After having spent another vacation in the US (in Northern California this
> time), I started wondering if there should be a mass edit to switch all the
> highway=residential (or other highway values set en masse and mostly wrong)
> that are from TIGER imports and still on v1 objects to highway=road instead.


I like that idea, especially given the high number of obviously not urban
roads that would be better off tagged as track or unclassified getting
counted as residential (a more urban classification).  I'd be willing to
extend this idea to any way tagged tiger:reviewed=no still, regardless of
version number.
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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Robert Kaiser]

Richard Weait schrieb:

Larger cleanups can be imposing at first glance.  Other mappers will
understand that a single mapper can't do everything at once, so you
shouldn't be criticized if you fix a few things but not others.


After having spent another vacation in the US (in Northern California 
this time), I started wondering if there should be a mass edit to switch 
all the highway=residential (or other highway values set en masse and 
mostly wrong) that are from TIGER imports and still on v1 objects to 
highway=road instead.
The reason for this is that we have a ton of dirt/gravel roads through 
the woods that are mapped as "residential" and therefore are highly 
misleading for both routing services as well as people looking at a map 
and trying to figure out which way to go "manually".
Note that this is just an idea, and I wouldn't be the one actually doing 
this as I have no ideas about how to do mass edits in a good way. I just 
wanted to bring this up with the US community.
AFAIK, the highway=road tag for "unspecified road, needing someone to 
review and switch to correct classification" did not exist back when 
those imports were made initially and would be the right choice for such 
imports nowadays.


Robert Kaiser


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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Mike N]

On 7/11/2012 3:56 PM, Evin Fairchild wrote:

If people don't want to do the TIGER fixup all over again, they could import
the TIGER 2011 data which is of MUCH better quality than the TIGER data that
was originally imported into OSM (though not quite perfect).  In fact, I
sometimes use the TIGER data overlay to get the names of roads that have
been built recently after having traced them from the satellite image.  This
uploading of new TIGER 2011 data would be a much better use of peoples' time
than having to do the TIGER fixup all over again.  Just an idea...


  I agree that TIGER 2011 is a great resource to use.   It is not 
practical to do any sort of mass upload and replace because all major 
highways have had many attributes added such as lanes, route 
designations, etc.   I would normally pull in new subdivisions this way, 
then bring the TIGER 2011 up to OSM standards.   Some of TIGER 2011 is 
usable as is, but some of it requires tweaking.


  I can imagine that much of the fixing would be to fill in missing 
road segments from aerial imagery.   Some of it will be wrong without 
local knowledge; the declining contributor originally split the road for 
a reason.   But having a road will allow routing to work again.


  Overall for a general region as large as Columbia SC, this represents 
many hours.  I don't have must local knowledge there any more, and I 
have much more interesting projects where I live.


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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Evin Fairchild]

If people don't want to do the TIGER fixup all over again, they could import
the TIGER 2011 data which is of MUCH better quality than the TIGER data that
was originally imported into OSM (though not quite perfect).  In fact, I
sometimes use the TIGER data overlay to get the names of roads that have
been built recently after having traced them from the satellite image.  This
uploading of new TIGER 2011 data would be a much better use of peoples' time
than having to do the TIGER fixup all over again.  Just an idea...

Compdude

-Original Message-
From: Richard Weait [mailto:rich...@weait.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 8:19 AM
To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 10:20 AM, Kevin Kenny  wrote:

> I'd be fine with trying to clean up unedited TIGER - or even a 
> "horrible mess of half-deleted TIGER" - if the expectations of the 
> results weren't quite so daunting.
[ ... ]

Larger cleanups can be imposing at first glance.  Other mappers will
understand that a single mapper can't do everything at once, so you
shouldn't be criticized if you fix a few things but not others.

> How do other mappers deal with the perfectionism that pervades the 
> community?

"Treasure it"  :-)

Of course we may have as many different flavours of perfectionism as we have
mappers.  Some will have an unnatural interest in baseball diamonds and
others in bicycle amenities.  Each of those mappers might consider the home
range of the other to be "imperfect".  That diversity is a strength of OSM,
overall.

If you are finding it overwhelming to consider a large repair, start with a
few easy bits, or those bits that most-interest you. For example, if the
road network in your town is badly aligned, start perhaps with fixing just
the main street that bisects it.  Now, rather than one large problem, you
have two smaller problem areas, with a good baseline between.  Then perhaps
sub-divide it further into manageable bites.

Back before we had good aerial imagery in my area, it seems that new mappers
popped up and started contributing when a framework of arterial roads was
mapped.  Those provided a boundary of neighbourhoods for new mappers to
adopt and map.  Perhaps you'll see something similar.

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[Talk-us] TIGER fixup and mapping "more"

[Richard Weait]

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 10:20 AM, Kevin Kenny  wrote:

> I'd be fine with trying to clean up unedited TIGER - or even a
> "horrible mess of half-deleted TIGER" - if the expectations of
> the results weren't quite so daunting.
[ ... ]

Larger cleanups can be imposing at first glance.  Other mappers will
understand that a single mapper can't do everything at once, so you
shouldn't be criticized if you fix a few things but not others.

> How do other mappers deal with the perfectionism that pervades the
> community?

"Treasure it"  :-)

Of course we may have as many different flavours of perfectionism as
we have mappers.  Some will have an unnatural interest in baseball
diamonds and others in bicycle amenities.  Each of those mappers might
consider the home range of the other to be "imperfect".  That
diversity is a strength of OSM, overall.

If you are finding it overwhelming to consider a large repair, start
with a few easy bits, or those bits that most-interest you. For
example, if the road network in your town is badly aligned, start
perhaps with fixing just the main street that bisects it.  Now, rather
than one large problem, you have two smaller problem areas, with a
good baseline between.  Then perhaps sub-divide it further into
manageable bites.

Back before we had good aerial imagery in my area, it seems that new
mappers popped up and started contributing when a framework of
arterial roads was mapped.  Those provided a boundary of
neighbourhoods for new mappers to adopt and map.  Perhaps you'll see
something similar.

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