Re: [Talk-us] Texas business route letter subscripts, or how I learned to stop arguing and ignore a certain user
On Friday, December 21, 2012, Clay Smalley wrote: In Texas, every business route has a unique letter attached to it. In this image from TxDOT, there are a few examples: http://onlinemanuals.txdot.gov/txdotmanuals/fsh/images/Figure%204-2.gif These are what show on the vast majority of highway signs. They are useful for navigation, and and official designation used by TxDOT for identifying which city a business route runs through. A while back, I took the liberty of adding these letters to the ref=* tags of these business routes, as well as their relations, to reflect this (e.g. ref=US 377A Business in the example). Along came an armchair retagger from outside of Texas. First he claimed that they're not part of the official route number, which is not true according to TxDOT's highway designation files, which are freely available and easily accessible online. So it sounds like you know the ground truth, and have done your homework. Good job. But my main problem came when he started removing them without notice whenever he made an edit to any of these ways. He also made a point that I 35E Business which goes through the town of Pearsall, Texas is not a business route of the I 35E that goes through Dallas. That made sense to me, so I'm going through and retagging all the business routes with hyphenation (e.g. ref=US 377-A Business). But he seemed to still have a problem with the business letters existing in the data. What sayest thou, community? I'm honestly tired of edit wars and pointless bickering, and would rather just get this question out of the way. Sounds like yet another problem brought to us by the letters N and E, and the number 2... ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Texas business route letter subscripts, or how I learned to stop arguing and ignore a certain user
On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Friday, December 21, 2012, Clay Smalley wrote: What sayest thou, community? I'm honestly tired of edit wars and pointless bickering, and would rather just get this question out of the way. Sounds like yet another problem brought to us by the letters N and E, and the number 2... bingo. So it's safe to assume the business letters can stay? I don't want hours of work deleted again. -- Clay ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Texas business route letter subscripts, or how I learned to stop arguing and ignore a certain user
On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 12:12 PM, Clay Smalley claysmal...@gmail.com wrote: [..] Sounds like yet another problem brought to us by the letters N and E, and the number 2... bingo. So it's safe to assume the business letters can stay? I don't want hours of work deleted again. They can, but there's unfortunately no guarantees that they will. From what I read I agree that the 'business' addition makes sense for the ref tag. -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Texas business route letter subscripts, or how I learned to stop arguing and ignore a certain user
On Saturday, December 22, 2012, Martijn van Exel wrote: On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 12:12 PM, Clay Smalley claysmal...@gmail.comjavascript:; wrote: [..] Sounds like yet another problem brought to us by the letters N and E, and the number 2... bingo. So it's safe to assume the business letters can stay? I don't want hours of work deleted again. They can, but there's unfortunately no guarantees that they will. From what I read I agree that the 'business' addition makes sense for the ref tag. Just so I'm on the same page...are we adding modifiers to ref=* or seperately in modifier=* in the relations? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Texas business route letter subscripts, or how I learned to stop arguing and ignore a certain user
On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: Just so I'm on the same page...are we adding modifiers to ref=* or seperately in modifier=* in the relations? The ref=* tags of the ways were originally e.g. US 377 Business and I'm changing them to US 377-A Business. The route relations have separate modifier=* and ref=* tags. The modifier=* tag will remain Business and the ref=* tag is being changed from 377 to 377-A. -- Clay ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Texas business route letter subscripts, or how I learned to stop arguing and ignore a certain user
I personally think that the letter shouldn't be stored in the ref tags on the ways as they could be considered as an internal designation that just happens to make it onto the route shields. Maybe the letters could be added as an additional tag like ref:txdot=I 35-V? They are so small that nobody but the roadgeeks are really going to notice or pay attention to them to be honest. I mean, do people in Texas really say take the next right @ I-35-V Business? I highly doubt it. I mean, I could seriously go around like crazy here in the Pittsburgh area (or anywhere else in PA) adding the little SR numbers into the ref tag that are on small little signs, but I don't. (example of one of those signs: http://goo.gl/maps/FFtfy) And if I do add them, I add them in a tag something like this: penndot_ref= (A way with this tag: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/171870239), but would have no problems changing them all to ref:penndot=SR (with or without the SR part). Those are considered internal route numbers (since they get reused in different districts) here. That said Clay, you've might have one of them wrong. This way (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/155807977/history), you labeled it as I 35-V Business. However, it's a Business route of I-35W, not mainline I-35 right there per this picture: http://www.flickr.com/photos/okroads/5161690779/ I personally think that the relations are fine as is as that's sensible IMO. But I wouldn't also mind if the route inventory letters were separate from the ref tag in that as well like how I mentioned above. Especially if routing software ever starts using the relations for routes. Also Clay, think how the routing software is going to handle this when they give directions, especially the speaking GPS's. I honestly think all of them are going to choke badly on the non-standard ref tags with the -V in them. That's why I think my suggestion above might be the best way to go for everybody. Leave the main routes in the Ref's, and add the route inventory letters into a separate tag or just the relation. -James ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Texas business route letter subscripts, or how I learned to stop arguing and ignore a certain user
On 12/22/12 10:39 PM, James Mast wrote: I personally think that the letter shouldn't be stored in the ref tags on the ways as they could be considered as an internal designation that just happens to make it onto the route shields. Maybe the letters could be added as an additional tag like ref:txdot=I 35-V? They are so small that nobody but the roadgeeks are really going to notice or pay attention to them to be honest. I mean, do people in Texas really say take the next right @ I-35-V Business? you can argue about what the ref tags should contain. as a practical matter, data consumers frequently assume that what's in the ref tag (on a way, different from ref tag on a route relation) can be rendered as is as the text on the highway shield. we need to accept that this is what it is and confine the ref tag to those things that are reasonably observable by the average motorist. this is why i am hostile, for example, to putting NYS reference routes in the ref tag, except for those four cases where the reference routes got actual NYS highway shields (for the most part, NYS reference route numbers are invisible to the normal driver.) richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
