Re: [Tango-L] Frankie Manning, r.i.p.
Trini de Pittsburgh. Although you made good points, I do want to comment specifically on: Frankie Manning is a good example of a dance genre perhaps being defined too narrowly stylistically Perhaps. However Lindy, and vernacular jazz dance in the braoder sense, has been informed by _many_ besides Frankie. I mean to take nothing from him. But Al Mims, Dean Collins, and host of others have all contributed to the current understanding of Lindy. You might want to check out Peter Loggins' (At least I think it's Peter's) history page, http://www.dancehistory.org/ for additional insight. yet aerials are now an accepted part of Lindy Hop. Someone else can comment on their social acceptability. Actually, NOT acceptable socially. And rather dangerous. I recall an aerials class I took years ago from an outstanding couple. Their comment was: If you do aerials, you WILL get hurt. The only questions are when and how badly. I'm sure all veterans of the LA swing scene recall Rusty Frank, a very good dancer ( this Rusty Frank - http://rustyfrank.com/ ) going around in a neck brace / birdcage for frickin' ever. Good thing she even lived through that. David _ Rediscover Hotmail®: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
Ron wrote: Outside Argentina, nuevo is rapidly becoming the de facto standard of dancing at events advertised as 'milongas'. Non-tango music (including 'tango fusion') is becoming a standard part of the music played at these events, even becoming the predominnt form of music at some events labeled (or even not labeled) as 'alternative milongas'. true that there are still milongas outside Argentina where social tango dancing predominates and classic tango music is played. Actually, Ron, it is far worse than you might imagine. There are a large number of nuevo tango dancers who despise the neo-tango and electronic tango music. They by far prefer dancing to real, traditional, tango music. Preferring the music played at authentic milongas, those dancers invade the sanctity of the dance floor and, space permitting, perform all sorts of wild gyrations right there in plain sight of their putative elders. What's more, these dancers are generally younger and fitter than most of us old farts, and both the men AND THE WOMEN think that they are dancing socially with each other, with everything strictly improvised lead-follow, when in fact they are clearly trying out for the circus. OMG! I think that the only solution is bouncers! I have heard that they kick people out of the Authentic milongas in BsAs if they are misbehaving. Authenticity is the US will certainly be enhanced by having bouncers. Regards, D. David Thorn _ Rediscover Hotmail®: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tango Nuevo: Concepts and Musicality
Such statements as the following: - Tango nuevo: The emphasis on learning steps and figures, associated with the introduction of tango nuevo into the US, which offers new movement possibilities, has led to more dancers walking through steps disconnected with the music. continue to appear on Tango-L and seem to reveal a continued misunderstanding of nuevo and a confusion between nuevo and plain old bad dancing. Although many on the list get it, I think that a few comments regarding nuevo are appropriate. 1. Nuevo tango is not about figures any more than traditional milonguero style is. It is about concepts of energy, momentum, continuity of motion, flow and connection that are in addition to the traditional concepts. I now dance primarily nuevo and yet at least 75% of the time do so in close embrace on my floor tile and with no figures of over a single step except, perhaps, an ocho cortada or two. 2. Nuevo tango is not about ignoring the music. It simply adds movement tools to the arsenal that I have to express the music. If I am dancing to Biagi, just walking provides all the tools I need. If the DJ puts on a later Pugliese, I can draw from the addtional movements provided by Nuevo to deal effectively with the more dramatic style of the music. And if a non-tango piece is played, I don't need to grump off the floor. 3. Nuevo tango does not require large movements or space. E.g. a volcada or colgada can be easily danced on your floor tile in a close embrace. Boleos and ganchos (nothing new here) can be kept low and slow. Soltadas can be done in less space than an ocho cortada. Etc. As others have said before, it would truly help discourse if all styles, danced well, were accorded equal respect, and all styles, danced poorly, were accorded equal disdain. Bad navigation and disrespect for the floor are not the exclusive domain of those who choose to add the creative possibilities of nuevo into their dance. Thank you D. David Thorn _ Rediscover Hotmail®: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango Swing
Larry - The first half of the routine is simply very poor quality Balboa - Way TOO bouncy!! They throw in one or two Tango steps and then switch to a mix of Lindy and Charleston. One can easily do a MUCH better fusion than I see here. A local couple here in fact routinely does so, blending Tango and Balboa very smoothly. People who don't know any better tend to think that it is one dance rather than a mix of two. David. _ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_042009 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] The Truth About Tango Nuevo
larrynla wrote: A lot of stuff. Bravo and thank you. [rant] If we are not messing with other dancers or the line of dance, etc., what is wrong if we express our feelings as we wish through our dance? Is Tango an art form or is it merely a stilted, codified and over prescribed set of step patterns, as bad as the worst excesses that one might find in the ballroom world? Does it diminish you to let me dance tango as I wish? I think that it is the self appointed purists who fail to dance tango, and should rename their dance to Codified Tango. Larry and Rod both made the point that the by the time the second tango dancer hit the floor, tango had become Nuevo and it has remained so ever since. If you would like to copyright the term 'Tango', you are welcome to try. In the meantime, the word, and the dance, belongs to the world. [/rant] David _ Rediscover Hotmail®: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Storage1_042009 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] The Truth About Tango Nuevo
NANCY wrote: Here is my question: Who decides if you are messing with the other dancers or the line of dance? Indeed. That is THE question. If I am dancing simple close embrace but insist on pushing the couple ahead of me, I am messing with the line of dance. If I am dancing simple close embrace but am dawdling so as to create a large gap ahead of me and a pile up behind be, I am messing with the line of dance. If I am keeping my distance, neither pushing nor dawdling, and I am dancing entirely on my floor tile at any given instant, why should you care whether I am doing a series of rock steps waiting for traffic to clear, or a colgada waiting for traffic to clear? If traffic is moving at a good clip, why should you care whether I am walking in a conventional close embrace or, using Ron's example, Butt to Front? In my opinion, rude behavior on the dance floor is rude behavior, and considerate behavior is considerate behavior. I realize that this is not a new rant. The question is: Why the prejudiced attitudes that continue to pop up and warrant the rant, or perhaps we just have have trolls continuing to plague the list? In the world of skiing (my other passion), many snow boarders are obnoxious teenagers. They would be obnoxious on skis also. There are also many snow boarders who are considerate and are a pleasure to share the slopes with. In the past, a large number of ski areas took the path of prejudice and simply banned all snow boarders. Now, nearly all are more enlightened and ban bad behavior, whether on skis or snow boards, and permit safe and courteous users of the slopes, whether on skis or snow boards. Can't the tango world be as enlightened and kind as the ski world? David _ Quick access to your favorite MSN content and Windows Live with Internet Explorer 8. http://ie8.msn.com/microsoft/internet-explorer-8/en-us/ie8.aspx?ocid=B037MSN55C0701A ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] More new tango moves
Mario wrote: Would you want to be dancing behind this woman on a crowded floor? You should be so lucky! Paula is a lovely, lovely dancer. I have danced with her on a floor so crowded that it was later compared to waiting in line rather than dancing. She certainly accommodates her dance to the available space. Do you see anybody around her in the video? Didn't think so. Regards, David _ Internet Explorer 8 – Now Available. Faster, safer, easier. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/141323790/direct/01/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Leading with the heart and the core
I said to lead with the heart and the core in my last post with considerable deliberation, because that is what I do, or try to do, always. Yes, you are connected through the hands and arms, but they, as well as the chest, are merely extensions of your core, and of your heart, which is where you generate the care, the compassion, and the joy in the music that you must transmit to your partner. A relevant example of this is the lead of an under arm turn. I do not lead this with my arm. The arm exerts absolutely no, zero, force. An underarm turn is done with a very light finger-tip to finger-tip connection. The real lead comes from the set-up of the turn (the 'pre-lead') and from my invitation. It comes from the space I create for my partner to move into, the space that I block motion into, where I position my body throughout the turn, and where I position it to receive the turn. The lead may even include my smile and the path of my gaze. Does my right hand invite her back to move into it? Does my frame invite a chest-to-chest reconnection? All of that is part of the lead of an under arm turn. And if she rejects, or simply doesn't get, any of this, I follow her and we do something else. No big deal. But not with the arms. As to the use of the term traditional tango, it is not I who have observed that there is nothing new about nuevo tango, but rather many have commented on this. I simply try to dance tango with all of it's richness of connection, invention and musical interpretation, which is, I believe, strongly in the tradition of tango. I don't dance nuevo, I don't dance milonguero, but I try to dance inventivly and respectfully in the tradition of tango. So yes, I think that I dance traditional, even if it may not always look like it to your eye. And I am indeed a romantic. Otherwise, how could I dance tango? David _ Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_022009 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Definition of Social Tango
Shahrukh Merchant wrote: ... I really don't think that claiming a certain difference between nuevo tango and traditional tango, or claiming a certain definition of those or any other terms, is *automatically* offensive to others who may feel that they do a good job straddling both forms Agreed entirely. I guess that I have become hypersensitive due to the occasional use of the expression traditional as lead in to an attack on those who dance show tango when in fact, as you point out, many on the forum do dance very broadly. My bad. (1) FIRSTLY danced in a way considerate of everyone else on the dance floor... Agreed entirely. Again, what I am (over)reacting to is the occasionally presented position that unless one is dancing close embrace with simple steps, one is almost certainly dancing show tango and is _not_ being considerate. However since one can easily dance all of the everything in tango, including colgadas, back secadas, soltadas, etc, in a small considerate manner occupying literally no more space than is required for an ocho cortada or molinete, I indeed should not take this rather defensive stance. Yes, rude behavior on the dance floor is simply that - rude behavior. David _ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_022009 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] R-E-S-P-E-C-T
In the interest of civility of discussion on this list, I would like to suggest that we all think carefully about our use of certain loaded expressions. Two that come immediately to mind are the terms traditional tango and social tango. Whose tradition are you talking about? Tango as danced in 1920? 1930? Villa Urqueza? BsAs today? And by which dancer or set of dancers? It appears to me that both traditional tango and social tango are often used as code to mean 'close embrace all the time tango'. Such use would seem to ignore the fact that, as has been oft noted in this list, the nuevo style of tango actually contains no new movements! All modern tango movement can be found, or its roots found, in the dance of years past. So perhaps nuevo is actually quite traditional and perhaps it is insulting to those who dance modern tango to be told that they are not dancing with respect for the traditions of tango. Similarly, the use of social tango to mean only close embrace, or at least to exclude a number of the modern tango movements, appears to reflect ignorance of the fact that modern tango is not based on choreography and patterns. It is not show tango. Rather, it is purely lead-follow, is danced socially for your self and your partner, and is based on invention to a degree at least equal to that of close embrace all the time tango. To suggest otherwise can be quite insulting to one who has worked to attain the level of skill required to dance modern. A simple example that should be clear to all on this list is the volcada. This is not a pattern at all. Every degree of sweep of the woman's leg, the amount of extension, the timing, whether it goes to cross, steps out without the cross or is reversed mid sweep, every aspect is led. So why should one who has worked to attain the requisite skill level to lead or follow this be told that he/she is not dancing socially? The level of heart-to-heart connection required to execute a beautiful volcada is certainly equal to that required to execute a beautiful ocho cortada. And the volcada, as is true with any other modern motion, need not occupy any more floor space than an ocho cortada. Finally, I'll mention the lead. A good modern tango dancer nearly always leads with his chest, his core and his heart. If my partner is to my side, I still lead with my heart and my core. I don't ever shove her with my arms. The arms are merely the extension of my core and provide the instantaneous connection between my heart and hers. Yes, I do use my arms, my wrists, my fingers, but the lead is from my core. The rest just adds nuance. Again, it is both insulting and inaccurate to say that modern tango, when danced well, is not led with the heart and the chest. Although we may differ in our preferred styles, I think that we should respect our fellow dancers and think carefully about our language. Yours in tango D. David Thorn _ Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Faster_022009 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Very smooth tango= foxtrot, Klaus
Martin Nussbaum wrote: Klaus, I think you should aim higher than the leader in the clips you chose. Musical? Yes. Smooth? Absolutely. Connected? ... maybe, but he might as well have been dancing foxtrot. For whatever it is worth, I believe that this dancer placed 3rd in the 2007 Australian Stage Tango Competition. Clearly, there are some who do like this style. But, here I have to agree with Martin that, for me also, this doesn't have the feel of tango. There are a fair number of modern/nuevo tango instructors I have seen who dance similarly. Very smooth, good musicality, clear lead, cool stuff, but a very boxy disconnected look. I don't see the feeling I expect from tango. From such I too try to learn the parts that I do like. But I want my dance to look more like I am feeling the music at my core. OTOH, I probably look like the stiff, middle aged, uptight white guy that I am and would do well to convey half the feeling that this dancer does. Oh well David _ Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_022009 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] How tango evolves
It appears to me that some on the list would have us believe that tango was born in the Golden Age and always had the set of attributes that we now associate with tango. We walk around small, look elegant, are musical, keep our head and eyes up etc. One of the interesting things about Petroleo, and indeed all of the first, or second, or third ... generation tango dancers is that many probably danced in a way that any number on this list would find objectionable and call not Argentine. I suggest that posters reflect on this 'ere they post remarks too critical of their fellow dancers and the way that they dance. It can be insulting to those of us who chose not, or are simply unable, to dance like your favorite Porteno. Yours in dance, but perhaps not in YOUR dance, David _ Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_access_112008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] (no subject)
Nina wrote: If other cultures insist on taking credit for transforming and evolving tango, they should stop calling it Argentine and call it something else instead, like no longer Argentine tango, or something like that. If asked what language I speak, I generally say English. I don't say 21st century American- English with both NYC and West Coast influences, and with a smidgen of south Louisiana creole influence for lagniappe. That would sound silly and rather pedantic to my ears. So what do you say? David. _ Get more done, have more fun, and stay more connected with Windows Mobile®. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642556/direct/01/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
I would Mario wrote: love to see a video of this give and take between partners...even Chichi Fromboli doesn't do this..he leads and she follows.. In full knowledge that the flame throwers are in alignment, here goes: Mario - Yes, compelling me to slow down, speed up, etc as contributions to musicality are certainly part of this. But it can reach much deeper if one chooses to allow it to. Although I give this example in open embrace, we (my regular partner I) dance similarly, but with much more subtlety, in close embrace. And yes, probably 60% of the time we are apilado/close and 40% of the time open - or something like that. Spose I lead a back ocho to my right (follow's standing leg is her left). My lead indicates the degree to which rotates. I.e. - do we keep moving LOD? does she go side to side and we make no progress LOD? etc. As she rotates I step to my right to receive the ocho, but I give the lead indication for her to step prior to my stepping (I generally try to lead so that her foot moves prior to mine.) Spose that she sees that the floor behind me is clear (we DO NOT run into people or even threaten to!!!) and wants to play a little. She might over-rotate, stepping into me, and compelling my receiving step to actually be counter LOD. She has even been known to WAY over rotate and back secada my left (leaving) foot as I step to receive her ocho. Yes, that TOTALLY breaks frame, but so what? I am however compelled to deal with it, for example by leading her to subsequently pivot 180 deg CCW while I step right outside with my left foot. Now we are back in the embrace, but facing counter LOD. I now deal with it and get back to moving LOD. etc. Possibly not AT, but a hellovalota fun to dance like this: I lead, she follows in her own manner, I deal with it and then lead the next step, and she does something, and I deal with it... etc. Cheers, David _ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] (no subject)
Ernest wrote: Tango rules do not always apply to milonga, milonga-candombera and canyengue. In most cases these dances existed before the sublime rules associated with tango liso existed. These dances have different characteristics, so much so that they have different names. I think this is just a case of not understanding what the characteristics of milonga-candombera are and judging it through tango-liso eyes. Ernest: Thank you for your posting. I have very much enjoyed watching you dance, both on youtube and in person. You do actually dance! It looks like fun! There are some excellent and well researched books out there dealing with the history of tango, and explicitly with its African origins. That a number on this list lack the required education to understand the consequences of this history, and of the various styles that long predated modern Social Tango, is easily remedied. Read. Learn. You might for example start with Tango: The Art History of Love by Robert Farris Thompson. Cheers D. David Thorn _ See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint
Robin Tara wrote: By the way, does anyone know why there weren't any shoe vendors in Albuquerque? Wait - You mean the $150 shoes that my GF bought at the festival in Albuquerque were mythical?? Maybe the cash I gave her (glad they didn't take MC - the damage would certainly have been worse) ended up going for a massage or perhaps new dress from TangoLeva. The vendors were good! The classes were good! The milongas were good! The locals who provided transportation to the Sunday Milonga were wonderful. Thank you all. And especially, Tom - Thank you!! Paul (Albuquerque) - Thank you!! D. David Thorn _ See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out featured posts. http://www.windowslive.com/connect?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_connect2_082008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tangozone
Alex quoted: The state of being so completely immersed in the music and profoundly connected with your partner that movement flows from within the partnership uninhibited by conscious thought. Subject of course to the constraint that one must constantly monitor the floor for navigational purposes, and often respond in a conscious, thoughtful manner. So what has this got to do with tango?? Just sounds like partner dance to me. Every swing dancer, every two-stepper, every salsa-freak probably has the same goal. And it is easier to achieve in a spot dance where the navigational concerns are fewer. David _ Talk to your Yahoo! Friends via Windows Live Messenger. Find out how. http://www.windowslive.com/explore/messenger?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_yahoo_082008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Boleos - back and front
Tom Stermitz wrote: The basic boleo is (usually) a spiral at the waist, that results in the supporting leg pivoting and the loose leg floating behind and perhaps wrap before coming around to the front. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJUV2QwmflY First few seconds. Liz is lead to spiral at the waist, her leg does float behind and then wraps around front, and then she is lead to settle onto her left foot.A front boleo??? A front ocho??? Simply a cross?? I thought that the root of boleo meant to to throw or to launch. A bowling alley is a bolera. I was under the impression that a whipping action, or the appearance of such, whether lead fast or slowly, was integral to a boleo. If the word is actually voleo, I thought that the english cognate was related to volley, meaning to hit in the air. Again, not a simple spiral, but a more enthusiastic action. help? David _ Get more from your digital life. Find out how. http://www.windowslive.com/default.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Home2_082008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango
Trini wrote: Personally, I find it much easier to find a connection with someone if I know beforehand what style they dance or what they prefer. Do you dance only one style?? Or do you adjust your style to accommodate the available space, the music, your partner, your mood, etc... I think that there are too many dancers who view an individual's style as fixed and inflexible, which is often just not true. Cheers, David _ Your PC, mobile phone, and online services work together like never before. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108587394/direct/01/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
FWIW, my belief is that the physical aspect of the lead comes through the physical connection. Thus, in close embrace, since the physical connection is via the torso, hands and arms are not needed and perhaps not desirable. In open embrace, the physical connection is via the hands and arms. Thus the physical aspect of the lead can totally come from WELL EXECUTED lead with the arms or hands. The problem here is well executed. Using a body lead insures that the lead is asking the follow to move in a manner consistent with how the lead's body is moving. It almost automatically eliminates rough, jerky, abrupt movements. For a lead to have adequate sensitivity and control to lead as smoothly with hands or arms requires a lot of skill. Perhaps more than most, but certainly not all, possess. It is also the case that leading with the hands need not include a constant guiding of every motion of the follow any more than a torso lead includes constant guiding. That again is a skill issue, and not an absolute. Just M2CW Cheers D. David Thorn _ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mobile_072008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Open/crossed step uses?
Larry wrote: I suspect their system [crossed vs open]is good for thinking up new ways of doing movements, but not for improvising them while dancing. I beg to differ. Generally, I can not tell you which (right or left) foot my follow is on, but I try to NEVER loose track of our body relationship as defined by 1) crossed vs parallel feet and 2) whether my follow's position is cross or open. Those two bits of information are what allow me to dance improvisationally, creating movements new to me on the fly, and to go beyond the simple rhythmic modulations and pattern modifications that often pass for improvisation. Cheers David _ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dividing Tango
Brick wrote These couples are obviously dancing for the audience, and not for each other. I think that one important source of the hateful views that I earlier lamented is the idea that you (the generic you) know what I am thinking. How do you know? How is that obvious? If what you are saying is that were _you_ posing, it would be for an audience, that's OK. But it seems a little presumptuous of you to say that you know what is going on in my head and in my partner's head, and that the pose we might strike is not something just between us. Are tango dancers generally so repressed that they can't express their feelings with / to their partners without first looking over their shoulders to see who might be watching??? Cheers D. David Thorn _ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Figures
Jack: To clarify a little, I was trying to illustrate that the volcada figure is really made up of a number of very small elements that can be rearranged so that the result does not resemble a volcada. I have come to believe that the essence of Nuevo is tiny elements, each no larger than a single walking step, that can be rearranged to serve the music, just as is the case with individual steps in close embrace style dancing, but with additional elements not commonly found in close embrace dancers, or at least with the elements used in different ways. To illustrate, I might (and in fact last night did) lead the following: 1. Place my partner on her right foot with, say, a back boleo. 2. Support my partner and take her off-axis towards me (ah-ha. I think it might be a volcada!). 3. As I do so, lead her to sweep her free leg (left) clockwise (see, I told you it was a volcada) 4. Now lead her to stop the sweep after only say 90 degrees. (Huhh?? Isn't that wrong) 5. Step into her so that she is back on her axis and do a side-step to my right (That is s wrong) We have just executed a left side step, albeit a rather uncommon one. One can take the nuevo elements that comprise the volcada figure (a teaching artifice, NOT to be confused with actual dancing) and create many, many responses to the music that do not resemble a volcada. That was the point that I was attempting to make. So yes, nuevo uses many figures in the teaching process, as does most Tango - think D8CB, or ocho-cortada. But, as has been pointed out repeatedly on this list, the D8CB should not be confused with dancing. Cheers David _ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow
Jack Dylan wrote But they appear to be figures that both of the couple must know. If the lady doesn't know how to dance Volcadas and Colgadas, they cannot be led by the man. Related to my point about nuevo consisting of elements, if a follow doesn't understand being tipped even while being lead (supported with suspension) to do so, she won't get it. If she doesn't understand how to follow the energy of the lead, she will miss the sweep, as well as linear boleos, etc Nuevo follows don't have to know any figures, but they do need the technique that allows them to hear and respond to the tiny elements that are part of nuevo. How is this any different from expecting your follow to wait, to not shuffle her feet unlead, etc.? Yes it does require the both the lead and follow have a whole additional set of skills, but it does not require that they have any figures in common. Cheers David _ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
And nuevo dancing implies that you look down and ogle your partner's outfit. Forget this outfit business Joe. I've been working very hard on my Tango Doble Frente http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tymrs60k3dU so that I could look down and ogle my partners backside, I mean, high-heels. Cheers, David _ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] (no subject)
Jack Dylan wrote It appears that Nuevo is more figure-oriented. Do you disagree with that? Actually, and perhaps surprisingly to some on this list, I do disagree strongly. I'll pick a two very simple examples. A volcada and a quick coldaga. In the volcada, every aspect is led and can be modified or reversed at absolutely any point in the figure. I can easily lead my follow to sweep large or small radius, lead her leg to stop prior to reaching my position and go back, lead her leg to stop in a (leaning) crusada position with or without a weight change, lead her to sweep her leg so that it stops near me and then convert the volcada into a front step, etc. ad infinitum. Quick Colgada: Say I lead a back ocho and step into my follow, placing one of my feet against 1/2 of her just landed foot and take her off axis (but supported) at the same time. I now have about a billion things I could lead from that position ranging from simply righting her and stepping out, to pivoting her in an outward leaning embrace, with all sorts of stuff in between. Thus every Neuvo element (not figure!) can, and should be, used to help interpret the music. Yes, figures do get used as learning tools, but that should not be confused with dancing. Honestly, I know no figures bigger than an ocho, a front step, a side step, a tip of my partner off axis, etc. I can dance an entire song, lead things I've never lead before, repeat nothing (except perhaps for a few of those pesky walking steps in between stopping to cause a traffic jam). I am also not even remotely unique in the world of leads who are, or are trying to learn to be (this be me), decent Nuevo leads who listen to and interpret the music, just as do dancers of all stripe. Cheers D. David Thorn _ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mobile_072008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Gratuitous insults and social tango
Which I suspect is why many people enjoy Nuevo. No need to worry about that pesky walk :-) I know that there is a smiley face at the end of this statement, but this nevertheless seems to me a rather gratuitously insulting remark, creating more heat than light, and perhaps reflecting significant ignorance on the part of the author. I love the pesky walk in close embrace. I love the joy of the open, more intellectual connection that exists in Nuevo. What is the point of insulting the Nuevo dancers? And while I'm bitching, I often fail to understand the use of the word social in the context of Tango. To me, social dance is simply that which can be danced socially. Much of what comes under attack here as not social can be easily danced in a social environment IF there is room on the dance floor, and IF the lead is good, and IF the follow has the requisite skill and fitness. But lack of any of these doesn't make the style not social, it simply means that the floor is too crowded or that the lead or follow isn't up to his / her job. Cheers, David _ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mobile_072008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Gratuitous insults and social tango
Huck wrote: So you thought you'd top a light-hearted poke at a generalized style with a full-blown personal insult, calling Mr. Dylan ignorant? (Oh excuse me, perhaps ignorant.) Ooops. Touche. My apologies to Mr. Dylan. And although it does appear to be a time-honored tradition to mock other styles of Tango, that doesn't necessarily make it an honorable tradition. Cheers, D. David Thorn _ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mobile_072008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
Joe Grohens wrote: It would be like playing, I don't know, Giant Steps, at a swing dance. Indeed. Giant Steps is 290BPM and not difficult for a decent Balboa dancer (but nearly impossible for any but the most spectacular Lindy Hopper). However, even most Balboa dancers would turn up their noses at Giant Steps for reasons similar to those that cause many Tango dancers to call Piazzolla undanceable. I.e. - Many dancers do not have the skill to dance to Piazzolla (or Coltrane) because they don't listen to or dance to them. If your tango dance life revolves around the Golden Age, you might never acquire either the requisite listening or dance skills to dance to Piazzolla. Many swing dancers don't like the relative complexity of Coltrane or any of the other bop or post bop jazz musicians (they need that 4-on the floor beat of the swing era), just as many Tango dancers don't like the relative complexity of Piazzolla (they need the strong 1 and 3 walking beat). As Mr. Fox said regarding Oblivion - Where's the Beat? On the other hand, if you were to spend a few months dancing exclusively to Piazzolla (Coltrane), you might acquire those skills. It is one thing to say that I don't like to dance to Piazzolla, or I can't dance to Piazzolla, or that I have never heard Piazzolla played at a Milonga in BsAs, or even to say of course I can but why in the world would I ever want to?. It is an entirely different thing, and I think incorrect, to say that Piazzolla is not socially danceable. Cheers D. David Thorn _ Time for vacation? WIN what you need- enter now! http://www.gowindowslive.com/summergiveaway/?ocid=tag_jlyhm ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Changes of direction
Jack: You listed the 6 CODs as : Right foot front cross to left foot back cross; Right foot back cross to left foot front cross; Right foot open step to left foot open step; Left foot front cross to right foot back cross; Left foot back cross to right foot front cross; and Left foot open step to right foot open step I'm a little confused. I lead quite a number of other things that I think of as changes of direction. For Example: Left Front Cross (now pivot follow 180 deg CCW on left foot) to Right Back (Open). Backstep, not Sidestep. (This certainly can mess with women who don't follow since they are perhaps expecting that after the LFX they will either be led side to continue the turn or RFX as a front ocho.) This is essentially a rock step with a pivot in between. It is very akin to LFX (now both lead follow pivot 180 deg CW) BRX except that by not pivoting with my partner her back right is open and not cross. Cheers, D. David Thorn P.S. And yes Astrid - follows are not expected to get this. It does however represent the intellectual side of the lead process for at least some of us leads. P.P.S. I know that I left the list, but somehow my request to be removed was ignored and I just couldn't help asking this. _ Making the world a better place one message at a time. http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Will close embrace go the way of the dinosaur?
Mario: I'm not sure why you might ask this. All of the decent nuevo dancers that I know are entirely capable of dancing close embrace, often do dance close embrace, and in fact may change embrace a number of times during a song to incorporate various degrees of light. Although I am sure that they do exist, I personally know no, zero, nuevo dancers who think that they should not be proficient at all forms of dancing to tango music. It is possible that your perception of a dichotomy between the open and close embrace dancers is a boggyman, spawned by a vocal minority who seem to believe that nuevo is a bastard child of the one true tango. I, and most dancers that I know, think that it is all good, it is all fun, and the only question is: What is appropriate to a specific partner, a specific dance floor and a specific set of circumstances. And often it is indeed close embrace. Cheers D. David Thorn _ Making the world a better place one message at a time. http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Thank you for the good times.
I would like to thank the members of Tango-L for an entertaining few months reverifying what is commonly attributed to Henry Kissinger, but is perhaps more properly referred to as “Sayre’s Law”: In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the stakes at issue. Since 'there is only one [tango], and none other before [it]', the acceptable range of discussion on this list would appear to be quite limited, and not particularly useful were I interested in expanding my knowledge of dance (note that I didn't say tango) to include any aspect of the world of fake tango. It is also quite clear that tango, having been defined by a set of dancers in BaAs quite some time ago, must remain culturally pure and uncontaminated by other times, other places, other dances, and, more generally, by the hoi polloi. It is also good to know that when the level of discourse drops to serious name calling, it is conducted off-list (I hadn't realized that I was a sh|thead until fairly recently, but I can go with that.) With hopes that I never have the misfortune to encounter the level of intolerance shown on this list in my real life, This is D. David Thorn signing out. _ Make every e-mail and IM count. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ MakeCount ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] More Nuevo bashing. Why??
Mario wrote: hey Martin,, where did I say that I liked it?? I can't stand the critter... I'm just hoping that it drops the name 'Tango' altogether... I think it will someday I understand that nuevo tango is merely a means of analysis that enables us to identify the movements and combinations of movements that are common in traditional tango, and to re-use them in ways that are not common in traditional tango. - Andres Amarilla I may be a 60 something close embrace dancer, but I am almost embarrassed by the curmudgeonly attitudes expressed by my fellow dancers. I remain totally unable to comprehend the animosity towards what is merely an extension of traditional tango, and which is danced by many (including Andres his wife Meredith) to traditional tango music with beauty, grace, and musicality. Is it jealousy? Is it fear of change? Is it bad tribal behavior? Evolutionary biology meets grouchy old people? I'm clueless! Cheers, D. David Thorn _ Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_052008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] More Nuevo Bashing - why?
Keith Elshaw wrote: Explain about respectfully dancing in the ronda and keeping to your own space and not bumping and kicking - and all those good things? Although I would not attempt it my self, I have observed excellent and considerate nuevo dancers execute volcadas in no more space than I require for a puente. I watched last week while a nuevo follow executed a low linear back boleo in less space than my usual partner requires for her ocho-cortado. Etc. As far as I can tell, bad ronda behavior is not required by nuevo tango. And when they do go a little crazy, the good nuevo dancers that I have seen appear to do it in the middle of the floor, and not by a surprise pass on my outside as some of my fellow close embrace dancers are wont to do. Bumping and kicking is just plain rude, and I fail to see it as a one of the requirements for dancing nuevo tango. I might be wrong, but I don't think so. Cheers, D. David Thorn _ Get Free (PRODUCT) RED™ Emoticons, Winks and Display Pics. http://joinred.spaces.live.com?ocid=TXT_HMTG_prodredemoticons_052008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Middle of the floor
Keith Elshaw wrote: People in the ronda all-of-a-sudden found/find themselves being blind-sided from bodies coming out of nowhere. People dancing in the middle are ignorant, aggressive, rude people who inevitably bump respectful dancers who don't deserve it. Causing bad feelings. Keith - That appears to be a somewhat pompous and presumptuous statement. Although relatively new to Tango (3 years), I have many years of ballroom, country and other dance under my belt. It is quite common in most of the world of dance that spot dancers can occupy the center without creating conflict with those of us in line-of-dance. Although this may not be what you are supposed to do in tango, I have observed this work effectively in tango as well. And dancing in the middle, per se, doesn't create bad feelings in me and I don't see why it should in others. It sounds like you are presuming that any dancers who might be in the middle will dart in and out of the ronda without regard for the rest of us. I don't believe that is necessarily true. Or perhaps you are simply saying that the better and more experienced one becomes in tango the more one becomes intolerant of behavioral differences no matter how benign? Or perhaps are you stating that any dancer in the center who never even comes close to the ronda is ignorant, aggressive and rude no matter why they are in the middle of the floor. Say a dancer is a beginner who finds himself over his head in navigational complexities, is terrified of bumping into those in the ronda, and chooses to move to the center out of respect for the rest of us. Perhaps you are saying that it is better for him to remain in the ronda and crash into his neighbors? Perhaps all beginners should just stay home where they belong and not intrude on your dance? I absolutely do not understand the antagonistic attitude that you present. Cheers D. David Thorn _ Windows Live SkyDrive lets you share files with faraway friends. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_052008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Qualifying Tango Instructors.
I think we all have seen excellent tango dancers, with a through understanding of the dance, the mechanics of the dance, and the music, who can dance both roles, who should nevertheless not be teaching tango, or any other dance for that matter. They may, for example, not have a good understanding of the different ways that people learn a physical activity, and thus whatever they teach will be lost on many (read 'on me'). Etc. I think that this is a very hard and many layered question. I personally try to pick instructors based on how much invited teaching they do. Presumably festival organizers will quit asking instructors who are unacceptable to large numbers of students and will continue to invite back those who are effective. Perhaps bogus, but it is all I can figure out to do. I'm not sure that qualifications necessarily help. Look at the US public school system. Cheers, D. David Thorn _ Back to work after baby–how do you know when you’re ready? http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=5797498ocid=T067MSN40A0701A ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance
Although I am a lead, I contribute negatively to the gender imbalance situation. I am an adequately decent dancer, perhaps one of those terminal intermediates who prey on the beginners. I dance with beginning and with advanced follows. I almost never dance with the intermediate follows. When a beginner is dangling off my neck, pulling me over, clamping my arm or jumping from foot to foot and generally making my dance unpleasant, I will politely ask ask her to manage her own axis, or to wait, or whatever, and explain that I have a bad rotator cuff, or whatever. Thinking that I am a good dancer, she will say OK, do so, and then the dance is fine. The local follows who are advanced know that I am a good, but certainly not excellent, dancer. However I am good enough that I can give them a decent dance and they will have a good time. They can also manage their axis, they wait, don't clamp my arm, etc, and no requests are required. They say yes to my dance invitations and we have a fine dance. But the intermediate follows, which means most of them, or at least very many, often can not manage their axis, and or don't wait for a lead, and/or But, since they know that I am only an intermediate myself, are quite offended if I make any requests, even regarding my damaged rotator cuff. They KNOW that they are not clamping my arm. I have simply quit asking them to dance. Probably slightly passive aggressive, but it does avoid conflict, I can have an excellent evening of dance, and I only feel slightly bad about all those sad intermediate follows lined up against the wall looking hopefully out at the floor. Cheers D. David Thorn _ Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in the game. http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango-L Digest, Vol 24, Issue 16
Huck Kennedy wrote: The tanda structure is not an anachronism. Like other Argentine codigos, it evolved over time to what it is today because it serves a very useful purpose. What is most interesting is that, world wide, all other social dances seem to get along wonderfully without benefit of the codigos, even if the dances are quite complex. Without being disrespectful, one could easily imagine that the codigos evolved in a particular culture at a particular time in history to address particular cultural needs and social standards. But that doesn't make them universals. Recognizing that they are perhaps, for most modern cultures outside of Argentina, entirely arbitrary in no way demeans them. Nor does it say that they can't be employed in a Milonga irrespective of the location and date as simply a part of the tradition of the Milonga. But I do not understand the blind conservatism, in any life endeavor, that argues that we do it the way we do it because that is how we do it and then proceeds to defend it as being the only true way on this basis. Sorry, but this is probably the scientist nerd in me rearing its head. Regards, D. David Thorn _ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Los Mancifestas
What can anyone tell me about the Orquesta Los Mancifestas? Thank you D. David Thorn _ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your fix. http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] There is only tango...
Ron wrote: Forms of tango where the embrace is opened, often classified as 'tango fantasia' or 'tango nuevo' are reserved for the stage or for exhibitions at some milongas. I don't understand how ignoring comments from dancers who are intimately familiar with the world of tango in BaAs, c.f. Meredith Klein's comment [Tango-L] Different styles of tango in Buenos Aires (was: Now that I'm here in BA) on Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:18:29 -0800 contributes to our understanding or appreciation of tango. Pushing personal agenda despite evidence to the contrary is extraordinarily puzzling to me. Again, probably the scientist nerd in me. Well, enough reading and posting for the day (3!!! in one day). 'Till later. Cheers, D. David Thorn _ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] There is only tango...
Charles: In the spirit of full disclosure I have to admit that I have never been to BsAs and that _all_ of my knowledge is second hand. Also, since Meredith lives, dances and teaches there, and apparently (based on previous posts) dances in a wide variety of situations, I was placing more weight on her words than on those of mere visitors to BsAs. I was even placing more weight on her words than on those of other BsAs residents whose sole focus appears to be only on the close embrace style and on the Milongas that are exclusively close embrace. From Meredith's postings, and from having spent time understanding Andres' background ( andresamarilla.com ), I assume that Meredith has a fairly good and broad understanding of the entire BsAs tango world. In particular, I would need significantly more evidence than I have seen to believe that the under 40 year-old dancers, and especially the under 30 y.o. dancers, do not dance open / nuevo when a particular Milonga's etiquette permits. And her posts seem to indicate that at some Milongas, etiquette does so permit. The result is that I am very sceptical of such blanket remarks as: Forms of tango where the embrace is opened, often classified as 'tango fantasia' or 'tango nuevo' are reserved for the stage or for exhibitions at some milongas. But I certainly could be (and often am) wrong. Cheers, D. David Thorn _ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Origin of Tandas
I couldn't find this discussed in the archives and am very curious: Back in the golden age, when you danced the entire night to one Orquesta Tipica, did they play 3 or 4 songs and then some rock 'n roll (or whatever)?? What was a night of tango like back then?? Where did the tanda system as we know it come from? Did they change partners every song? Or never? I am utterly clueless. Cheers, D. David Thorn _ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your fix. http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Open Embrace Connection
Steve - There is a nuevo dancer couple that I see occasionally doing things that look impossible if both lead and follow are not managing their own axis and weight. Not being a 20 or 30-something, I don't expect to dance like they do, but some, I said some, of the things that they lead look musical and enjoyable. Doing them with weight sharing is currently beyond my understanding. I was mainly wondering how common it is for follows in open to insist on leaning. I really have no better word since they would most definitely fall over if I didn't hold them up. And they do tend to pull me off of my balance. I haven't yet had the courage to ask that particular nuevo follow for a dance ( I certainly can't dance in their preferred style and they tend not to dance socially - just with each other), but maybe I should ask her just to get a better sense of their connection. With respect to rotator cuff - the initial damage was due to weight lifting (military press with too much weight). It is rather easily re-injured by various linear, not rotational, forces. In particular, constant downward pressure on my right arm combined with a follow clamping down on it with her left is quite painful, even after only one tanda. Cheers, D. David Thorn IMO even in an open embrace there is SOME weight sharing going on. The amount of shared weight should be negotiated. PS Your rotator cuffs should be OK since there is no torque or twisting involved. I think. _ Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
