Re: [Tango-L] Interesting question
Different situations often call for different techniques. A stage dancer often stylizes with very specific foot placement, but a social dancer typically uses the whole foot (depending of course!) For example: - in order to pivot, the follower must obviously lift the heel. - when walking backwards, the follower will be lighter if she passes her weight across the foot: ball - heel - release. - when walking backwards, a follower who stretches her floating leg’s heel downwards will have a more relaxed, stretched (not reached) leg. - when walking forwards, a heal - ball stride will allow passing the weight across the foot for more control. Many stage dancers and teachers will tell leaders to land with the ball of the foot. Again, on stage you may have specific stylistic needs. But, most social dancers will walk by passing the weight across the heel and then the ball. This is not often obvious in the moment, as their foot appears to land flat. And, frequently teachers will say one thing even while they do the other! -Original Message- From: Lois Donnay Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 10:53 PM Help! A tango teacher told me to keep my heels on the floor - I should use the heels on my tango shoes to stand on. I've been working hard to do that, even though it didn't feel very natural…. - that was me) says I should keep my heels just slightly off the floor - only if I really need balance should they touch the floor. What is right?? And why do teachers seem to contradict each other so often? Ever heard of that - a teacher who tells followers to keep their heels on the floor your shoes have heels for a reason! Lois ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Criteria for choosing teachers
Political issues sometimes makes it hard for a community organization to make subjective judgements. One objective criterion is the degree of professionalism offered by the teacher: (1) Do they have regular, on-going, group classes? How many? (2) Do they have a website, email, phone number? (3) Do they have liability insurance (like a yoga teacher would!)? (4) Do they have an actual resume and curriculum on file with the club? (5) How many years have they been teaching? One way to get past the political issues, is to have two tiers of teachers. You can list all the self-declared teachers who meet the minimum of being a member of the organization. But, only highlight as Professional Teachers those who meet a higher standard of professionalism according to objective criteria like those listed above. Maybe the enhanced listing on your website gets a picture, a link to their website, and the days times of their classes. You can list the Other Teachers with less information. If one of the less-professional teachers upgrades their profile, then let them move to the highlighted tier. I think the most important measure is whether the teacher offers ongoing classes. When a newcomer comes into the community, you want to refer them to teachers who can deliver a year of training. (Ballroom tango is not Argentine tango; that is not a hard boundary to enforce.) On Jan 10, 2013, at 1:44 PM, Lois Donnay wrote: What do you think should be the criteria of the local tango club for the instructors that it chooses for their Argentine Tango instructor list? The club wants to be fair, but is also aware that everyone who teaches Argentine Tango is not necessarily qualified to do so (If you ask any Arthur Murray franchise if they teach A. Tango, they will say yes despite having no knowledge of it.) Lois Minneapolis Tom Stermitz c: 303-725-5963 http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
Walking is not at all hard. The average guy has spent a lifetime walking around the planet without falling over. If the guys are having problems walking, I would suggest that the teacher has created a situation where the men are unable to reference that life-long skill. In short: have them walk normal. They already know how to do that! The main problem comes when they think they have to do something different or special to dance. If you can get them just walking (heel ball, on the beat), you have solved 90% of the problem. The rest of the problem comes because they are worried about stepping on the followers' feet. You have to make sure the followers are getting out of the way, with or without good technique. If they are trapping the leaders, the tangle of feet will reinforce the worry about stepping on the followers' feet. Musicality is a different matter from walking, but confident musicality is key to confident walking. Musical walking first means walking on the beat. A normal walk has a stride and a tempo close enough to the tango beat, so walking on the beat isn't that hard. The typical QQS pattern isn't too hard, so you can get walking and rhythm on the first day. Musicality also means movement energy corresponding to the phrase of the music. I teach walking to the phrase from day one, but I don't think many teachers do that. Usually, I see beginners walking around the room on the slow beat moving like robots: no commas, no periods, no acceleration, no suspension. Coming to a together step at the commas and periods of the phrasing builds in musical movement. Back to confident musicality. If it feels right, i.e. the movements correspond to the music, then you get good, confident beginner walking. I guess if you had confident musicality, you might also get good walking from the advanced dancers. On Jun 16, 2011, at 3:13 PM, Sharon Pedersen wrote: I've been watching some new leaders in our community, and they struggle with walking. Huge steps leading with their legs, or holding themselves in an awkward contorted stance and walking with always-bent legs, or taking very wide steps when walking forwards, or being unable to coordinate to a relatively slow beat and having to hover the foot in the air waiting for the beat to catch up before putting it down. Why is it so hard for people to walk? ... How do you help your beginners to walk reasonably and musically? Tom Stermitz c: 303-725-5963 http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
On Jun 16, 2011, at 4:41 PM, sherp...@aol.com wrote: North Americans do not have a culture of walking, just walking with style down the street, with grace, attitude and good carriage I stand by my statement that men (even North American men), have spent a lifetime walking around the planet without falling over. They arrive at tango with that skill. Grace, attitude, posture are not cultural issues. so we have to learn to walk in counterposcione before we can even begin to learn tango steps. I do not quite understand this sentence. What would be the English translation of counterposcione? And, why would that be a pre-requisite for learning tango? Just go to Spain, France, Italy, Argentina and look how the people walk, stroll, saunter with attitude and statement and dignity along the sidewalks. Casual walking is an artform in many cultures, so they have a leg up on the tango walk(no pun intended). Sherrie I don't buy into all these cultural comments. It is true that most Argentines have grown up listening to tango and seeing it, at least a little. But, there are lots of Argentines who do not have good technique in their tango. This concept of getting the followers out of the way is the wrong concept to put in the lead's headhe will step on her if he does not place his foot directily in front of his stationary foot. iI he walks astride the woman rather than directly towards her center line, he will step on her...it is not a question of getting her out of the way, it is a question of proper foot placement. No Argentine teacher would ever make references like this..sherrie And yes, if the follower does not get out of the way, she will be stepped on. That isn't the whole story, but it is a necessary requirement. I'm not Argentine, but then, human bodies and physics is not an Argentine concept. Tom Stermitz c: 303-725-5963 http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Flat foot, heel first or toe first?
My opinion is different. First, smoothness in the walk is almost completely about the usage of the hip, knee and ankle joints rather than toe vs heel leads. To prove this, it is obvious that you can walk camel or smooth with a toe lead; you can walk smooth or choppy with a heel lead. Second, I don't think many tango dancers actually use a toe lead. I'm not talking about stage dancers trained to present a specific appearance and line. I know that many tango teachers SAY lead with the toe, but if you watch them they aren't actually doing that. (They are repeating what they think they are supposed to say.) Most tango dancers land with the foot flat, but their weight hits the heel first, then passes across the foot. Usage of the whole foot gives the leader more control over balance and smoothness, as well as the ability to provide extremely subtle messages to the follower, such as asking her to slow down the collection the legs, micro decorations, and weight changes. This is particularly true of social dancers. As we can see from their resumes, most tango teachers from Argentina, notably the ones with the credentials to travel, are performance dancers, not social dancers. Some of them might social dance, but that isn't their primary interest or training. On May 5, 2011, at 9:14 AM, hbboog...@aol.com wrote: Jack Tango can be walked two ways. Like a cat or a camel. The cat would be smooth leading out with the toe. The camel would be abrupt leading with the heel. It doesn't matter what we call it John Wayne Cat Camel or whatever every leader steps forward on his toe or his heel. Watch any video and pay attention to the man’s feet and you will see the smoother dancers all take the toe lead the others all lead with the heel. The way it was explained to me is when you move forward with the toe you can control the length of the step to the music and dance more smoothly. If you step forward on your heel the step is shorter so it’s harder to dance to slower music and be smooth. Most of the close embrace BsAs style dancing is heel leads good salon dancers use the toe lead. When I watch tango danced the main thing I look at is the man’s foot placement. If he’s dancing on his heels his movements are quick and his feet don't seem to be in total control. Watch a man leading with his toes and you'll see a totally different dancer with every foot movement exact and in control. I'm not judging here just pointing out how I see tango danced. David Tom Stermitz c: 303-725-5963 http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango without music?
Almost all beginners can step on the beat, with a little (decent) instruction. Dancing to the music means movement energy corresponds to musical energy, which is about the beat plus the phrase. When a beginner moves WITH the phrase of the music, the movements feel right, and he has more confidence. When a beginner takes steps that don't correspond to the phrase, he feels lost and confused. Usually, he says I can't hear the beat, but he means he can't feel the phrase of the music. So, I'm with Martin, not Huck on this one. Sounds like Huck took a class with a teacher who doesn't know how to explain musical movement. A lot of teachers are intuitive about music, but have no idea how to teach it. On Apr 25, 2011, at 12:28 PM, Huck Kennedy wrote: On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Nussbaum, Martin mnuss...@law.nyc.gov wrote: Totally disagree with all those who want to isolate tango instruction from the music. The only reason to dance IS the music. While I absolutely agree that music is the only reason to dance, learning a movement and practicing aren't dancing. So overall I disagree with Martin, and believe those who say learning technique should come separately from trying to apply musicality are correct. When trying to master basic movement, musicality can be a distraction. ... Now having said all that, and at the risk of sounding like I'm contradicting myself, I agree with Martin that musicality still needs to be introduced from the very beginning, even if it's just practicing simple walking expressed musically. Huck Tom Stermitz c: 303-725-5963 http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Right hand lead?
Oh my aching back! Without taking anything away from those great older dancers, it is more pleasant to dance with a partner who has good technique. Tango is a social dance, and Sergio is correct that there are many techniques. But the hand technique mentioned can be quite harsh and painful. Trini explains it well, and places the hand lead problem in the historical perspective. Some of the older gentlemen of tango use strong, rigid muscles in the arms. When I was learning tango in the 90s, many of the women of Buenos Aires were habituated to dance with strength or rigidity in their arms, because that is what they were expecting. Even today, in Buenos Aires it is apparent that a lot of women have learned on the dance floor and clearly haven't taken lots of lessons. (They have many other superlative qualities, such as embrace, feeling and musicality; it isn't all about technique.) The only thing I would add is that in Buenos Aires Tango is viewed as a social dance, with the implication that you don't need lots of lessons. An Argentine who doesn't do tango typically knows something about the music and what it looks like. It isn't strange that a woman in Buenos Aires would have the view that you can just go dance and the guys will make everything work. On Nov 22, 2010, at 9:18 AM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: I've been the victim of that many times. It's rather unpleasant. It was still being taught in the 90's, but I'm glad that it's gone out of fashion. It's useful to remember that the women way back when didn't take classes like the women today. The attitude of the man was that the women didn't need to learn anything, they just followed. When the first women's technique class in BsAs started in the 90's, the men scoffed at it. ... Given that environment, I appreciate the difficulty someone like Susana Miller had to go through just to be able to teach the man's role. It would take an incredibly strong character. Trini de Pittsburgh Tom Stermitz c: 303-725-5963 http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Cabeceo
On Oct 19, 2010, at 2:59 AM, Vince Bagusauskas wrote: On the matter of cabeceo in general, I doubt it would work at many milongas in Australia, because either for seating arrangement or because of the very turned down light levels. And oh some women who take their glasses off for the night :) Vince In Melbourne Why are the lights turned down low? How can you see the dances and the women eagerlly looking at you for dances? The cabaceo isn't a strange ritual. How do you get the waiter's attention at a nice restaurant? Do you physically go into the kitchen to retrieve him. Tom Stermitz c: 303-725-5963 http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] floor craft -2
On Oct 14, 2010, at 2:04 AM, Jack Dylan wrote: - Original Message From: Sandhill Crane grus.canaden...@yahoo.com A phenomenon that I've observed at festivals in the US (saw it just this last weekend in Portland) is that a solid line forms at the edge of the floor, and the rest of the floor is more sparsely filled. It's nice to have a clean outer lane. It's even nicer to also have a clean second lane. Straddling the lanes or Zig-zagging between lanes is problematic. Some people just don't belong in the ronda, eg. beginners who haven't yet developed the necessary skills to improvise on any given step and others, often skilled dancers, who want to dance more fancy figures that take up a lot of space and those who want to dance Nuevo. ... Jack Beginners can do fine in the outer lane. It does depend on what they have been taught. Simple walking steps are within their control, whereas ochos and turns aren't. In my beginner classes I make sure they have the foundational vocabulary for handling the outer lane, and we repeatedly practice navigating the dance floor in the first weeks and months. Then these new dancers feel successful when they go to the dances. The intermediates are the main navigational hazard. They know too much vocabulary that they can't mange for navigation, and get stuck out in the middle like swooping of dying tango swans who gobble up all the floor space. Some people stay intermediate for years. Tom Stermitz c: 303-725-5963 http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] floor craft -2
There is the problem that so many leaders do not dance up near the edge of the dance floor. Not to mention the problem that so many milongas don't have a well-marked edge, or else have people walking on the dance floor next to the tables. If there is room on between them and the edge of the dance floor, then it makes some sense to go past on the right. That may have the effect of pushing this, lesser-experienced guy into the second lane. A more serious navigational hazard are the leaders zig-zagging between the first and second lane. Imagine if on a highway you have a semi- trailer truck straddling two lanes in the highway, or worse some drunk weaving back and forth. Yes, my right is my blind side, but usually I'm rotating around enough to keep track of incoming missiles, like a sonar screen in an old war movie... piu-piu-piu. On Oct 7, 2010, at 6:04 AM, Myk Dowling wrote: On 07/10/10 16:23, Jack Dylan wrote: Interesting! I was told the opposite - that when overtaking is absolutely necessary [for reasons already given], you should overtake on the inside but never on the outside. The reason given was that, due to the embrace, the man is blind on his right side and to overtake a man where he cannot see you increases the risk of a collision. This makes sense to me. I was also told that one reason why milongueros always dance in the outer ronda is because of this 'blindness' on their right side, i.e. they know that there are no dancers there to disturb him or his partner. I would agree wholeheartedly with this. Someone sneaking past me on the outside when I'm in the outer ring causes more collisions than any other approach on the floor. I can see ahead and to my left. To my right, I keep track of how much space I have to the edge of the floor (or of my lane if I'm not on the outside ring). Nothing annoys me more than suddenly finding someone intruding into that (usually fairly small) space. Myk, in Canberra ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Tom Stermitz c: 303-725-5963 http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Basic
Yes. It is important to add the idea that you need to be good, DAMNED GOOD, with walking, ochos, giros/sacadas (Turns, not greek sandwiches!), music. In fact, if you are really good at those things, cool moves and workshops are really easy. If you aren't really good with those things, then you are wasting a $30 master workshop and the teachers have to slow down the class and dumb down the material. To be a little rude, if you think this doesn't apply to you, it probably does. I also want to give a shout out to LOCAL TEACHERS. You get good at the basics through lots and lots of repetition, week after week, in group classes, practices and private lesson with someone better than you. On Jul 7, 2010, at 6:36 PM, Keith Elshaw wrote: I pressed send by mistake! Walking, ochos, gyros. With the music. So many people learn all the fancy stuff on top of that they they never learn the real basics. If the above three were all you knew and could do well, you could dance all night with anybody in the world (except people who had been taught how to dance tango). Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why are you dancing tango if you don't like tango?
It's true that some people are only interested in shallow images and metaphors of tango, but you're really talking about tango music dance not just cool moves and pretense. I've noticed that some of the most fanatical Traditional Tango Music fans started out hating the music, but enticed if not loving the movements of tango and finding expression in music they already feel and understand, i.e. rock, world, jazz... whatever. I think key is to realize that great dance requires the person to have a passion for musical movement and an emotional attachment to music. 1940s tango is great music, but it is unfamiliar to 99% of people outside Argentina. It takes time to begin to understand tango, and to figure out how to attach feelings to movement. Precisely the SAME people with the greatest passion for music and movement, often discover that feeling first with non-tango music. When they finally figure out real tango music, they are capable of converting over. When I DJ, it is this conversion process that I'm trying to create. By good musical choices, the emotional energy of the crowd can be massaged and molded. For tango-experienced people, this is possible with tango music, but that is harder for a portion of the audience. Often, non-tango music works really well to get everybody into the right energy. On May 2, 2010, at 3:49 PM, Lois Donnay wrote: I heard the strangest thing last night, and am still puzzling over itBut then she asked me about the Nuevo scene we have. I said we didn't have too much, and I'm not fond of dancing to non-tango music myself. She said she dislikes tango. She much prefers to dance to tango Nuevo. She doesn't have much interest in dancing to traditional tango, and suggested that this may be the reason that young people in our community tend to create their own events. So my question is: why would someone get involved in tango dancing, so much so that they choose to teach, when they don't like tango? Lois Donnay Minneapolis, MN Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Rate of movement on crowded floors
What is your experience, Trini? I think some people's frustration with navigational issues (i.e. road rage) becomes painted as a universal truth, when it is mainly their personal complaint or personal difficulty with dancing small and musically. To be fair, until you gain experience with crowded conditions you feel cramped rather than comfortable. In my experience, in BOTH the US and Buenos Aires when it gets crowded, the line of dance doesn't progress very quickly. When it gets super crowded things slow to a crawl, but again that happens in both places. The bigger difference is when the dance floor is not so crowded. In the US, leaders sometimes race around athletically. Leaders who aren't racing frantically, still tend to travel fairly quickly around the floor with very few chewy pauses or slow-movements. In Buenos Aires, the leaders choose a more paced interpretation of the music. On Feb 9, 2010, at 7:38 AM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: Hola listeros! ... I've heard from a couple of people that there's a big difference in the speed at which people travel on the dance floors in BsAs versus the crowded festivals in the U.S. Basically, in the U.S., the LOD slows to a crawl. In BsAs, however, the LOD continues at its usual pace, even if it's heavily packed. One reason why this is that in the U.S. leaders tend to wait for the person ahead of them to move before they go into the space. In BsAs, people just dance along. One leader described it as being pulled along. ... Trini de Snowburgh Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Back to the 8CB
On the surface, this is a sensible defense of the 8CB w/DBS, but in the end I don't agree that the traditional 8CB teaches phrasing. Yes, the tango phrase can be counted, and matching MOVEMENT energy to the MUSICAL energy is a key aspect of musicality, but the 8CB is a poor framework for learning this. Tango phrasing is really 4+4=8, so these shorter phrases of 4+4=8 work better for teaching musicality. Here are a number of other points: (1) The 8CB matches 8 counts of the music only if your tango stays on the slow, walking beat. The other two rhythms of tango (after walking on the beat) are the QQS and dramatic pauses. So, once you go beyond the most basic walking, you need more tools to dance to the musical phrase. (2) The 8CB method of teaching typically jumps from the basic to ochos, and turns. These directly take you out of the phrasing, and the more you practice these figures, the further you get from the phrase. (3) Tango musicality relies to a great extent on suspension and acceleration, which means matching the musical phrase on Count #4 and #8 and Count #1 or #5, respectively. So, the traditional 8CB w/DBS is all wrong for matching the musical phrasing of tango because the acceleration and suspension steps are not with the acceleration and suspension of the music. (* see below) (4) In the end tango dancers have to depend on feel or intuition rather than counting in order to dance on the phrase. This isn't hard to teach, but you have to use simpler structures where students can feel the phrasing. (*) Can anyone explain why Step #1 of the traditional 8CB w/DBS is backwards? In terms of acceleration to match the musical energy, Step #1 should be to the side in terms of acceleration. Also, in social dancing, the first step is traditionally to the side. And, Step #4 should be at the cross because the musical phrasing calls for a suspension, which prepares us for accelerating forward again on Step #5. On Jan 14, 2010, at 5:05 PM, Tango22 wrote: The 8cb follows the structure of tango music, in that tango is composed in phrases of 8 beats, with the phrases arranged in particular sequences. Each phrase ends with a pause or a signal. This structure is carefully explained in Amenabar's book Dance Tango to the Music (currently only available in Australia, NZ and Europe). Amenabar is currently touring Europe and will be touring Australia in July where he will conduct music for dance workshops for the Milonga Para Los Niños charity ball. So the 8cb may have some value, in that it encourages the beginner to dance the phrases of the music, pausing at the end of each, or some phrases. The problem in my experience is that (a) beginners lock in to the sequence and find it an extremely difficult habit to break and, (b) most dancers and teachers do not understand the structure of the music or how to recognise the phrasing. I find it more convenient to impart this knowledge in a series of listening and simple walking exercises rather than a fixed sequence because students, especially beginners, do not have to concentrate on two things at once and it avoids the lock-in habit. ... Tomorrow it's Saturday. Let's dance. John Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] The dreaded back step
On Jan 7, 2010, at 6:04 AM, www.tango-argentino.info wrote: Hello dear tango dancers, I'm one of the teachers who teach his dancers the back step. Also in my videos courses I always dance the back step. ... I learned the back step of all my meastros: Pepito Avellaneda, Antonio Todaro, Rodolfo Dinzel, Lampazo, Copes, Eduardo, etc etc I think one of the most important things is that we dancers can't take the back step out of our dance. That would be terrible, when we are walking (caminar) we have 3 possibilities: for-, side-, backward. ... Ricardo El holandés Which of the listed teachers are primarily social dancers and which are stage dancers? Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] [SA] RE: San Diego close embrace Festival 2010 and floorcraft
On Jan 6, 2010, at 5:40 PM, Have to Tango wrote: In reply to Tony's mail about the San Diego festival: Maybe I'm missing something, somewhere... but, I've visited and carefully read each page. I can NOT find the term 'close embrace' used anywhere on the site... The website for the upcoming San Diego New Year's festival does not claim that it is close embrace, nor is there any hint of it. The ad for this past New Year's festival (http://tango.org/festivals/sandiego/2009sdtangofest ) says (and I quote): The 3rd Annual San Diego Tango Festival will be a Southern California treat for all tango dancers who love the social tango popular in the milongas of Buenos Aires: close, subtle romantic. (1) Isn't ALL tango close-embrace? Not counting stage tango, of course. Nuevo and Salon sometimes have a variable embrace, but they are also danced very close. (2) Isn't ALL tango improvisational? Not counting stage tango, again. (3) At this point 99% of us should agree that good dancing and good navigation are the issue, not style. I've been the organizer of the Denver and San Diego festivals for 10 years. Most people have a good time, and we get a lot of repeat dancers year after year. Dance quality is good but not perfect. Setting high aspirations is great, but expecting perfection is a sure set-up for failure. Originally I advertised the festivals as Milonguero, which was quite controversial in 1999 because at the time, 90% of tango teachers were stage dancers teaching stage figures. The Tango-L arguments went back and forth as to whether Milonguero Style even existed, or was just a marketing term. I had visited Argentina several times and it was obvious that tango AS DANCED IN ARGENTINA, was completely different from the stage figures presented in the US. I wanted people to know they could find that Buenos Aires experience in the US. These days, branding the Denver and San Diego festivals as presenting: social tango popular in the milongas of Buenos Aires: close subtle romantic should be obvious to everyone, and shouldn't be controversial. It says nothing about style, but says everything you need to know. THE MILONGA as a TRANSCENDENT DANCE CONTAINER How do you create the social dance conditions for people to achieve transcendent dance experiences? That is a much more interesting question than style or advertising verbiage. I've been talking with a friend who has experience with ritual dance, who believes that concepts of ritual and trance are essential for understanding the tango dance experience. Most (many? some?) tango dancers have experienced the tango high, that zen experience where time melts away into intuitive music and movement. It is like you are dancing consciously and unconsciously with your partner and the whole crowd. In terms from ritual dance, the milonga is the ritual container, and the DJ is the master of the ceremony or leader of the drum circle. How does an organizer set it up the right conditions? Can you really control things or just encourage them? (1) Physical space: Separate the dance floor from the sitting area. Hotel ballrooms are surprisingly good, with carpeted area for tables clearly delineated from the wooden dance floor. (2) Social space: Keep pedestrians separate from dancers; tables face the dance floor on multiple sides; convenient ebb and flow on and off the floor; tandas and cortinas to provide consistent social rules, (not rules really, agreed-upon structure?). (3) Crowd energy: Transcendence is a personal experience, but crowd energy is a powerful driver. Achieving an intuitive psychological experience comes from having an intuitive interaction with the dancers around you. This requires a certain density of dancers on the dance floor. Empty floors allow room for people to avoid interacting with the other dancers and provides space for some leaders to rocket around. Super-crowded conditions require higher skills from the leader. Merely very-crowded is good because everybody has to dance about the same consistent speed and rhythm. (4) DJ: The DJ has to know what it means to create the transcendent for the participants: Ebb and flow of energy from song-to-song and set- to-set; Arc of energy across the evening; psychological feeling of the songs chosen; (5) Expectations: The crowd has to know transcendence is both a possibility and be seeking it. That means some high percentage of the participants need to be pretty good and they need to have experienced tango transcendence. I think some of the expressions of tango road rage is a valid concern about disturbances to the tango dance-trance. These criticisms have frequently been directed at practitioners of Nuevo, but in truth, good nuevo dancers have the same goal as good milonguero or salon dancers. Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207
Re: [Tango-L] dreaded back step
Read the title of the emails, and notice that the name of the step is 8CB w/ DREADED BACK STEP. The temido paso atras is the dangerous thing. The 8CB does its own problem: The average guy arrives in tango capable of navigating a crowded bar or cocktail party with a couple of drinks in hand. The VERY FIRST thing some teachers do to him is remove that capability by teaching an 8 step choreography. Why start learning by going backwards? AFAIK, most of the teachers in the US no longer teach the classic 8CB w/DBS. Instead they teach tango in smaller, easy to improvise figures. In particular, teachers from the Nuevo Analysis or Milonguero Style typically use the small sequence methodology of teaching. It's true that many stage dancers construct choreographies out of the 8CB w/DBS. On stage these steps serve the function of filling up the stage with interesting movements, with a visual presentation toward the audience. If you are a stage dancer, the 8CB w/DBS is probably the way your teacher taught you, and maybe you haven't considered other methodologies. I hasten to add, there is nothing wrong with stage dancing, although in my experience, most guys coming to tango don't want to be on stage. On Jan 5, 2010, at 11:46 AM, Charles Roques wrote: I'm not sure why people are taught to step back as the first step in the 8-count basic as there is a danger of colliding with the person behind you. A step to the side as the first step is actually more traditional and is seen often in milongas in Bs. As. (but not of course in the nuevo milongas.) I have seen it for years and most people who teach it otherwise are usually interpreting it instead of following tradition. But it is also okay to step backward if the space is free. Also there is nothing dreaded about the basic 8- count and resolution, it is only a base foundation step, a sort of default step and generally universal. You start there Cheers, Charles Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No place left to dance
Maybe you'd have to attend in order to understand, instead of imagining that a single youtube carries the whole truth. We have seven milongas to try, each with a somewhat different focus. All of them are oriented to social dancing, i.e. non-show tango. They are pretty crowded, so large moves aren't very appropriate. Obviously you can't control everybody, so it is certainly possible to find a video of someone doing a big boleo at one of these festivals. If you wanted to sit out one of the milongas, you could. Or, you are free not to come at all. On Oct 24, 2009, at 5:34 PM, Chris, UK wrote: As the organizer for the Denver San Diego festivals, I can reassure you that the concept of festivals for social dancing remains: By Dancers; for Dancers. Please, Tom, explain how your: http://tango.org/2010sdfest The 4th Annual San Diego Tango Festival will be a Southern California treat for all tango dancers who love the social tango popular in the milongas of Buenos Aires: close, subtle romantic. squares with your: Sat, 3:00 - 07:00, DJ TBA, Alternative Music Milonga $15 and the likes of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS9sMTtozZI Or if the nuevo dancing at your festivals is any /less/ antithetic to BA-style social tango, please post a video to illustrate. -- Chris Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No place left to dance
As the organizer for the Denver San Diego festivals, I can reassure you that the concept of festivals for social dancing remains: By Dancers; for Dancers. The milongas are arranged for social dancing: good djs, rectangular dance floor with tables and chairs around the periphery, tandas of traditional social tango, and cortinas for partner changing. For Larry: Navigation is never as good as we would like; It's not really as bad as we fear; there are often a few loose cannons; tolerance helps. For Ron: Homer Ladas is famous as a skillful nuevo dancer. He is also extremely good at navigation and social dancing. Jaimes Friedgen is not far behind. Brigitta Winkler has studied extensively with Gustavo, has a long history at performance dance, and was instrumental in the introduction of milonguero to the US and Europe. So, yes, all three are famous for their nuevo talent, yet all three are extremely good social dancers. LOOK. There are good navigators and bad navigators, no matter what style. I'm well known as a milonguero teacher and organizer, but the navigation issue is about social dancing, and context (class, stage, practice, milonga), not style. The good nuevo dancers all know how to dance socially and courteously in the milonga context. I agree that the loose cannons can be irritating, but I have noticed a steady maturation of skill at the festivals over the years. I've also noticed as steady decline of navigation skill and courtesy in Buenos Aires milongas since I first went there almost 15 years ago. On Oct 19, 2009, at 10:37 PM, RonTango wrote: - Original Message From: Larry Richelli larryri...@yahoo.com This is good. I just wish we could have separate festivals. For instance, Denver is advertised as a close embrace festival but man, it is not longer this way. You have two or three guys that can dance open nuevo pretty good and 20 other guy that want to be just like them that can't. This has really screwed up this festival and the line of dance, even though they have an alt milonga on one afternoon. I've been to Denver twice, in 2004 and 2005, and to San Diego in 2007 (same festival concept). Navigation was pretty good in Denver the times I went, but some of the locals in San Diego didn't realize it was a festival for social dancing rather than showing how well you could weave quickly in and out of the line of dance. Now San Diego 2010 has 2 prominent nuevo instructors scheduled. One has to wonder if Denver will follow suit. It's beginning to look like there may no longer be any festivals in the US where a tango milonguero dancer can find solitude away from the nuevo invasion. It looks like we will have no other option than to go to Buenos Aires to find milongas with a supportive social dancing atmosphere. That wouldn't be bad if it weren't so far away. Ron Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
When I was learning tango in the mid-1990s, nuevo clearly referred to the work of Gustavo, Fabian and Chicho. Nuevo meant analysis and exploration. I know that these days some people use nuevo to mean a style (or even a music?... although that doesn't make any sense to at all). To me style is something you put on top of tango, and is a choice, as in choice of embrace, choice of figures, choice of appearance. If we're inventing, we could make up other names: Mis-tango, Meh- tango, Neo-Tango, and even Non-tango. I really liked Ecsedy's comment about Nuevo, reminding us that Nuevo is NOT a style or form of dancing. I agree with him that Nuevo is more appropriate to refer to a method of analysis. This restricted definition of nuevo FREES US UP to view tango as multi-dimensional. Analysis, technique and style are different dimensions. In other words, to me: - tango (the essence) is about feeling, intuition, musicality, energy, dynamics, relationship and culture. - steps are about analysis, mechanics, choreography, and decisions about how to move. - style is the look and appearance of tango. - history is the rich tradition of tango in it's time periods and neighborhoods. In my analysis, nuevo only usefully refers to the middle item. Stylistically: If milonguero (whatever that means) is my preferred style, my purpose is to express music, and the energy of partnership. Milonguero means in the choreographical sense, my steps are dictated by trying to maintain a very close connection at all times. Technically: Yes, I have studied and incorporate nuevo methodology in the gustavian sense. And as a teacher and dancer I really appreciate technical issues of axis and balance between axes, symmetry and mirrors, possibilities and technical analysis. Steps and technique are certainly helpful for expression. Essentially: But, the most important thing remains: dancing tango is mainly about expressing music and feelings. Historically, if we talk about Tango,it is so important that tango not lose its ties to its traditions and history. On Oct 4, 2009, at 12:13 PM, Ecsedy Áron wrote: This movement, sometimes called 'el puente' (bridge) can be seen now and then in Buenos Aires milongas, but one may have to wait an hour or so scanning the floor to see it. However, in this movement, the woman is not displaced from her position, i.e., her feet do not change position. It is not a 'volcada' (fall) as used in nuevo, where the off axis tilt is so extreme it causes the woman to fall off her axis and step forward. IMHO It is the same thing technically. The difference is only in the amount (which I believe is the question of personal preference = style). I believe that 'nuevo' became a term that doesn't describe a form of dancing. It doesn't really mean any type or style of dancing that could be identified without doubt just by looking. The few things that nuevo DOES mean is: - a structured way of building up your dancing (which rather a method of teaching of philosophy of learning) vs. building it up by imitation of sequences or moves only that was devised by the teacher (which probably never existed in a pure form in the first place) - a free, open way of thinking about tango as a dance, which means there is a POSSIBILITY of doing all moves possible by a couple in embrace to tango music vs. doing only a set of moves, form, or extent of moves and not doing others, as it is not in the tradition (of a certain teacher, style, area, community etc.) - goal in the structure of nuevo is to identify the simplest and smallest common technical elements that forms the basis of all and every tango style, that are intercompatible on a very wide domain of moves - another goal is to identify the ways to increase internal body awareness of these technical elements, to devise methods that make connection, communication between couple understandable for those who do not understand it yet Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Aron, I have a question about nuevo.
Your question doesn't make sense to me. Nuevo is not a style of tango... Just like floorcraft is not a style of tango. See, we're mixing apples and gardening techniques. On Oct 4, 2009, at 5:00 PM, hbboog...@aol.com wrote: Aron, I have a question about nuevo. When you dance at milongas and the majority of the people are not dancing nuevo, do you stop and change directions and take up a great deal of space? If this is what you do, how do you feel about not following traditional tango etiquette rules? I'm asking you this question because I would really like an honest answer. I'm not against tango nuevo, it's just that I see nuevo dancers have a rather selfish approach to space and line of dance and they don't seem to care or have respect for others on the dance floor. Thanks, David Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? Milonga
Keith, note how Andrew says: The milonga we dance nowadays The milonga from the 19th century was a different music from the milonga that developed in the 1930s. The roots of tango may have been the older milonga, but today's (1930s and later) milonga came out of the tango of the 1920s, not the milonga of the 1890s, which which was two generations earlier. In other words the evolutionary tree split in the 1930s. Milonga and Tango did not go back to the 1890s as two separate musical forms. If you listen to the music of the 1920s, it is (in general) somewhat march-like. Some songs feel tango-ish and others feel milonga-ish, and a lot of them aren't very differentiated as milonga or tango. In the 1930s, tangos slowed down, added new musical elements, and developed along the de Darean (slower) and d'Arienzean (rhythmic) paths. In the 1930s, milongas sped up and had candombe and african-ish rhythms and lyrics added. The lyrics were full of this nostalgia for the good old days when black people lived in San Telmo, and danced under the torches. Are there examples of milonga candombera from the 1910s and 1920s? I'm going to assume we could find 1920s examples of canbombe in Uruguaya, but I'm not sure if these were part of the tango experience or whether they stayed with the african communities and carnivals of Uruguay. Our enjoyment of milonga is sort of double nostalgia. I guess, all this discussion is meta milonga. On Aug 1, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Keith Elshaw wrote: Milonga pre-dated tango. The milonga we dance nowadays [2 beats to the bar, fastish ,as in Milonga sentimental] only goes back to the 30's. The pre-dating one was a slow dirge played by the payadores towards the end on the 19th Century and hardly ever danced to. Piazzolla revived it in the 50's as Milonga Campera: Oblivion, Milonga del angel cTrue. the milonga campera eventually became more lively turned into tango - that could be danced. All the above is, I'm afraid, reproduction of myth and mis- information. Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
I think Steve's chart is reasonable. Taxonomies often have multiple overlapping branches, and we know that Tango always had cross fertilization, so I'm sure there is no single categorization scheme. You can muddy things if you lump too much together or if you split things into too many sub-styles. Steve doesn't mention more detailed styles like Villa Urquiza, but I still don't know how VU differs from the tango of other neighborhoods. Sergio says VU is the same as Traditional Salon tango, but that ignores the other neighborhoods. The only main thing I disagree with is that for me Nuevo Tango is more of an analysis than a style, and doesn't have much to do with non- tango music. Someone asked whether alterations or changes of direction existed before nuevo. I'm sure they did either as individual passing steps or certain sequences like chains. What nuevo brought was a discovery of all the possibilities. On Nov 13, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Vince Bagusauskas wrote: Is this relevant and accurate? http://www.tejastango.com/tangostyles.jpg ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Traditional Tango
On Nov 12, 2008, at 1:42 PM, Sergio Vandekier wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY Mario sent this example of tango dancing, some people think that what is shown has something of NUevo Tango. This is the most traditional tango salon that you can see. The tango as danced and taught in the 40s. and today by the most famous tango teachers such as It is the style as danced in Villa Urquiza and called by that name by some. In the video, what specifically makes this style Villa Urquiza, as opposed to some other style. Tom Stermitz Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango Styles
I always thought that there were a number of traditional salon (social) styles of tango, of which Villa Urquiza is just one, so I wanted to know how Villa Urquiza fit within that set of styles. The reason I say this, is that the tango of each neighborhood always had its own distinguishing aspects, and VU is just one neighborhood. In my mental organization of tango styles, milonguero is another subset of traditional social tango, as they say, a version of tango suited to crowded, downtown milongas. Now you are saying that Villa Urquiza IS tradtional salon tango, and Milonguero is not salon tango. Is that correct? Nuevo tango is another subset of traditional tango, with considerable influence from fantasy elements borrowed from Todaro to Zotto. Nuevo (to me) has nothing to do with non-tango music. But, I wouldn't really call Nuevo a style, rather it is an analysis of movements and a set of opportunities, just like fantasy is a set of moves and opportunities. Nuevo has nothing to do with a wide open embrace. Chicho (perhaps the bastard son of nuevo) is one end, but if you ever watch Gustavo (surely the godfather of nuevo) he normally dances with a very traditional salon appearance. Is fantasy a style? On Nov 12, 2008, at 10:24 PM, Sergio Vandekier wrote: How Villa Urquiza style (Traditional Tango) differentiates itself from the other styles: (in this video). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXU9nojcFQo Long Steps, Embrace in V, use of a varying embrace (elastic embrace) close, with little light to open, profuse use of embellishments, elegant erect posture. Elegant formal dressing. Tango walk with a narrow base, the feet brush heels as they pass each other, the foot lands either toe or heel first. Walking on a line with external rotation of the foot. 1 - Milonguero - Cacho Dante - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgWMs0rAcJk Shorter steps, embrace more frontal (where the V is less evident), close embrace only, different degree of elegance, Tango walk with a wider base, the feet are right under the hips, the feet do not brush heels as they pass each other, the foot land flat on the sole, walking on two lines, no external rotation of the foot. Less use of embellishments. 2 - Milonguero - Susana Miller- Same as #1 except that here the embrace is more in V, and there is more play with the rhythm. Use of ocho cortado. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Any40gQTc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odl9DBOQsYQfeature=related 3 - Nuevo Tango - Fabian Salas - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6inw_V_a1W0feature=related Tendency to use non traditional tango music. Very open embrace, colgadas, soltadas, volcadas, piernazos, changes of direction, changes in the embrace, profuse use of heel sacadas. Mariano Chicho Frumboli http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-5Bxtck3Uwfeature=related A very open embrace, profuse use of heel sacadas and changes of direction. Elegance is sacrificed in exchange for an element of surprise. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lro4WfRpzMfeature=related Tendency to use non traditional tango music (in this case Argentine flokloric music is used). Some piernazos, some volcada, a very open embrace, some soltadas. _ See how Windows® connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119463819/direct/01/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] New Electronic Posture Improving Device
All those tango teacher prayers have finally been answered. We can throw away our cattle prods and tasers. Announcing: The iPosture. http://www.iposture.com/index.php The iPosture is an intuitive electronic device designed to improve posture. Just over one inch in diameter, the iPosture automatically senses when the body slouches, and it alerts the user with brief vibrations to correct it. All joking aside, this might actually be a useful teaching tool. Tom Stermitz http://tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Milongueando 2009
Several of my friends and students have attended this festival, even going back a second time. In contrast with many (most?) Tango Festivals, the instructional focus is on social dancing (not show tango), i.e. how they actually dance at milongas in Buenos Aires. They liked meeting all the people in classes (foreign and Argentine), and made a lot of good personal connections for dancing at the milongas later, or for when they attend festivals in Europe or the US. I notice that women who go to Buenos Aires often dance their feet off at the milongas and come back transformed and greatly improved. You can't always say the same about the men who return from Buenos Aires. Sometimes they learned a bunch of more steps without actually improving; Others return motivated by the realization that they don't know jack about tango, which is a frustrating, but possibly transformational experience. With respect to the Milongueando festival, the men I know who attended did come back very much improved in their tango. In particular, their sense of musicality and their feel, i.e. their feeling for the dance, as well as how they feel to dance with. As Cherie says, you don't need a Festival in Buenos Aires to get better, you could just dance all night, every night at the milongas. That is a good strategy if you are successful with social tango already, and are comfortable dancing at a festival when the floor gets crowded. On Oct 25, 2008, at 11:29 AM, Jack Dylan wrote: Does anyone know anything about Milongueando 2009? It's quite expensive but is it worth attending since I could be in BsAs at that time? Their website says it's the 3rd International Encuentro of Tango Milonguero in Buenos Aires. Did anyone attend either of the first two? Jack Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] How to dance the 3 3 2 form
Good question. This is different from the Habanero rhythm which is also embedded in tango: Bump-b-Dump-Bump, Bump-b-Dump-Bump, Bump-b-Dump-Bump, Or what I call the reverse habanero: Bump-Bump-b-Bump, Bump-Bump-b-Bump, Bump-Bump-b-Bump, As you note, the strong or walking beat is syncopated and you would typically step on the ONE, FOUR, SEVEN, but to do this all the time would start to become repetitious and lose the syncopated feel. An interesting song that focuses on the steady One, Four, Seven is Melingo's Leonel El Feo. One variation would be to step on the ONE and FOUR, holding across the SEVEN. However, instead of dancing steady, you need to mix in the rhythmic steps on the 2,3,5,6 or 8 which adds a nice counterpoint. It has to come from feel, or demonstration as it is difficult to explain and more difficult to do. For that listen to 40s Troilo, like Cachirulo. In addition, this 1,4,7 with 2,3,5,6,8 counterpoint will involve a lot of internal body motion: hips, tummy, spiral. In tango we might usually be stepping on the regular walking or rhythmic steps, while using syncopation internally. Now, for extra points (or brain damage), try dancing tango to the Ballroom rhythm of Half-and Half. On Oct 16, 2008, at 2:59 AM, mekimdung wrote: Hi you, --- Without going into musical notation to show the rhythm, the easiest way to describe it is to count out loud from 1 to 8, but emphasising or clapping the numbers underlined: One 2 3 Four Five 6 Seven 8. (http://www.totaltango.co.uk/Forms/tangomusic.pdf) --- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Lead and follow
On Oct 11, 2008, at 9:40 PM, Jack Dylan wrote: I'm still open to the idea, but I'm not convinced about any big improvement that the man will make by learning to dance the woman's role. Specifically: If you experience the movements of the follower, you feel what she does inside her body and you will find it far easier to figure out how to lead those movements. Leading another person well is a very deep experience, like a martial arts. Doing it yourself is extremely enlightening. That's the main benefit. There are a number of other reasons. For example - The follower learns technique sooner than the leader. - By following you feel what you are supposed to feel like. If you are dead set against it for ideological or psychological reasons... well, fine. You don't have to anything you don't want to. I'm just telling you what is extremely obvious to me. Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint
Of course the unmentioned but related problem is gender balance. Obviously, the women don't like sitting, and the men don't like being on the spot. Even if they aren't being pursued, they feel guilty. Both are negative feelings. In general, women are more likely to take privates and spend money to travel for good tango. Guys face some performance anxiety issues when faced with the intensity of a crowded, energetic dance floor. It's just more daunting for the guys, and he has to deal with launching ideas and managing the crowded floors. If each tango city sends 4 men and 5 women to a festival, it doesn't sound like a problem, but when this gets applied to 300 dancers, you have 30 extra women. BALANCE LOCALLY If the overall problem seems overwhelming, let's divide it into smaller pieces where individuals can have an impact. I urge all festival attendees (women AND men) to talk around with your friends to see who may be coming from their own community, and to make efforts to balance locally. Recognize that the guys may need a little coaxing, especially if it is their first road-trip. Work out car sharing or roommates to help with costs. At the festival, take classes to meet and mix. It does help to show off your friends, and introduce them around; but you don't have to dance with them the whole time... trade them off to ladies from other communities. SECOND REASON TO BALANCE LOCALLY The purpose of a festival is to meet lots of new and old friends, create an intense dance experience and feel the excitement you get with a room full of good dancers. This can be a transformative experience. (I find that for the few days after a festival, the world is a pastel and dreary place, a sort of tango hangover). You don't want the festival to be just a pleasant memory. You want the transformative experience to continue when you return home, and that requires BOTH men and women to carry the festival energy. On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:14 AM, NANCY wrote: I'm not going to mince words here. There is something happening at festivals and maybe at milongas that is not pretty. Too many women are being way too aggressive in asking, no! in demanding dances from leaders. Even from leaders they do not know. The men are complaining. They are trying to hide. They have turned down these women who have the nerve to return with hostility and ask again. These women are grabbing men on the dance floor before they have even disengaged from their current partners. They are lying in wait at the entrance to the ballroom to snag guys before they even enter the venue. I understand. We have come a long way and spent a lot of money to attend these events. But..what happened to 'waiting your turn'? What entitles YOU to dance more than I? The guys are great. They try to dance with old friends they have danced with over the years. They try to get around to everyone they know and then also ask the women who might otherwise sit. But I had four different men tell me the women in Albuquerque were being 'mean' and demanding and pushy. One even described being hurt so badly by a woman who tried stuff he had not led and she was not capable of executing so that he was disabled for the rest of the event - much to the chagrin of his wife. And I was not the only one who heard these complaints. delier Nat'l Monument. Nancy A veteran of this festival and several others ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint
On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:57 AM, robin tara wrote: Thanks, Nancy, By the way, does anyone know why there weren't any shoe vendors in Albuquerque? Robin Tara http://www.22tangoshoes.com Robin, you know this isn't true. In fact there were shoes and clothes for sale. Not to mention, yoga in the morning and massage for your aching feet. You also know that I've been happy to welcome you to my festivals regularly. I know that you love to dance tango and get to participate with everyone else. However, I admit that I don't really emphasized vendors. With all due respect to your business, my purpose is to honor the dancing and the participants. Even the teachers at my festivals are not the big-name show dancers, rather people who can entertain a large class and who focus on social dancing. The only exhibition is a group social dance honoring and presenting the teachers. I do feel that the DJs deserve special recognition. They are the ones who manage the social energy and keep you dancing for hours, even to dawn. Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Boleos - back and front
On Aug 8, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Jack Dylan wrote: - Original Message From: David Thorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] First few seconds. Liz is lead to spiral at the waist, her leg does float behind and then wraps around front, and then she is lead to settle onto her left foot.A front boleo??? A front ocho??? Simply a cross?? I'd say that Liz is dancing a small, low, Back Boleo because, as Tom says, her free leg is floating behind. In a classical Front Ocho, the man would lead the lady to collect, prior to rotation. IMHO, leading the change of rotation prior to collection is what causes the free leg to swing into a Boleo. After the Boleo, Liz dances a nice cross. Collecting i.e. stopping with her feet together will kill the boleo. The woman should do the opposite. She should NOT collect, she should pass by close. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] How to lead volcadas
What it tells us Jack is that some people have got the idea that one particular predefined sequence is the only thing that is called volcada... because that's the only volcada that those particular people are learning or teaching in class, and featuring in the promo videos you see. Volcada is a description. In real dancing, there are countless different volcadas. The word refers to any move that meets the description. Only in the world of paint-by-numbers tango classes does anyone mistake the word for the name of a single sequence. -- Chris Yes, of course Volcada just means lean. It comes from the Spanish. You can do a big lean, or do it small, break her back, or throw her to the ground. Or, maybe she throws you to the ground. Watching the older dancers, you see they are always changing around the angle of the lean, so volcada is nothing new. Same problem with learnung the boleo. Many people think boleo is a kick of the leg, when in fact the kick is a decoration of the boleo. The basic boleo is (usually) a spiral at the waist, that results in the supporting leg pivoting and the loose leg floating behind and perhaps wrap before coming around to the front. If you learn the boleo with one specific kick, then you are learning both the decoration and the boleo at the same time. This is less flexible than learning them separately. Certain fads sweep through tango every couple of years. I remember the dreadful parada, sandwich, shoe-shine, gancho scare of the mid 1990s. How kitsch that move looks today, as the woman rubs her shoe with pretend skankiness up his leg. A bunch of people will go to Buenos Aires and see a woman with her nose pressed against his cheek, or her left shoulder cranked up with elbow poking up at the ceiling, or her butt sticking way out, and start imitating it. Each year it seems like a particular new move is the rage: big sweeping volcadas (2003), or a 45 degree plank (1995). Tom Stermitz Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado, marketing
On Jun 29, 2008, at 9:45 AM, Sergio Vandekier wrote: Clarin, the major Buenos Aires daily paper, called her one of the four most important influences on contemporary tango... I've heard this is a fabrication. Does anyone actually have a copy of any Clarin article that said this? --Chris I've read the article Chris is referring to, but it isn't saved in my email archives. His fabrication comment is a fabrication. I searched the archives of Clarin Newspaper from the year 1997 till today and found only one mention of Susana Miller . See the article below from Aug 8, 1999. I was first exposed to the close, rhythmic style of dancing at Almagro in 1996. On that first visit I learned the important lesson that I didn't know jack about tango, and I would have to work a lot harder to get it. Cacho Dante also started to teach that style, and fairly soon most non-Argentine instructors did the same. Where are your statistics on this? Maybe 4 or 5 out of 15-20 Denver teachers teach or emphasize a very close, rhythmic style, 5 or 6 nuevo/modern (following Gustavo/Salas or adding elements from swing), 7 or 8 some variation along the classic salon to fantasy spectrum (sometimes its hard to classify). More important is the fact that most people in Denver vary their personal style, depending on the situation, partner or mood. In any given week have different venues: lessons, practicas, milongas and sometimes performances. By Irene Amuchastegui and Laura Falcoff Clarin NespaperSunday, August 8, 1999 NEW STYLES OF DANCE GENERATE CONFRONTATIONS AND POLEMICS BETWEEN MILONGUEROS For ten years, the proliferation of teachers and schools have been modifying the way to dance tango. Although the change is evident, it has heterogeneous forms. As a result of that, there is a new paradigm: today, anyone can dance. The static postcard of the milongas today, with its colorful mixture of hippyoungster and old time historical habitues united in the ritual of the dance, is not more than that: a flat image that rarely reveals something more than a repertoire of archetypes. Behind that frozen scene, nevertheless, an unsuspected and burning world exists where the old can be new, the novelty can be obsolete, a simple thing can be difficult, and the excessive is insufficient. And in that, on the other hand, all these values are in permanent change. Ten years ago, and in a symptomatic coincidence with the world-wide triumph of the musical review Tango Argentino, the social dance of tango began to rise from the ashes in which it had been almost buried for decades. It is known that throughout these last ten years, the panorama was modified completely. Today, hundreds of instructors shape thousands of dancers who attend tens of milongas. In order to have an idea, it is enough to take a look at anyone ofthe specialized publications (Tangauta, B.A. Tango), or to consider that at a single school (Estrella-LaViruta) there is an enrollment of 600 students. But beyond the numbers factor, the phenomenon of the contemporary milongas marks a historical change in another sense: a new change of direction in the continuous transformation of the styles of dance throughout the century. What is being favored today on the dance floor? If it is what can be observed with more frequency, one would say that three tendencies are disputing for supremacy: the Urquiza style, the Almagro style and the Naveira style, as the fans know them, - implying a neighborhood, a club and a teacher. They are not difficult to distinguish. Make yourself comfortable on a stool by the bar and you will see them move over the waxed surface: a couple that advances with long steps, touching the floor as if they are wearing gloves on their feet (Urquiza), is followed by other couple closely embraced and whose short steps adjust synchronously to the beat (Almagro), and behind, a third couple that unfolds all the imaginable variety of figures which the previous couples can do without (Naveira). Adding to that, there will be another couple schooled in the style of Antonio Todaro and belonging to an elite with technical formation, that alternates between the social dancing at the milongas and the professional stage performances. The fans are simultaneously protagonists and judges of the prevailing tendencies. In some halls, one or another one dominates. But on several pistas the practitioners of different styles mix with each other, they watch each other out, they appraise each other, they admire themselves or they condemn the others. The commentaries can be listened to between the tables, but they can be tracked all the way down to the Internet (currently a Tangolist site burns with opinions like: So and so's dancing, looks like a cowboy with hemorrhoids). Miguel Angel Zotto and Milena Plebs led the first changes at the beginning of the 90's. When
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo, Apilado, marketing
I think I was clear. I'm saying that I have read it, but I do not have a copy on my computer. You can go find it if you like. On Jun 29, 2008, at 11:03 AM, Chris, UK wrote: I've read the article Chris is referring to, but it isn't saved in my email archives. You're saying you have no evidence it of it at all, Tom? I searched the archives of Clarin Newspaper from the year 1997 till today and found only one mention of Susana Miller . ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype?
Naaah, not fraud. It's just the same Superlative Crisis that has been sweeping the world these last few years. There just aren't enough superlatives to deal with all the extra- ordinary, far beyond mortal, Gods among mere god-lets that we have in tango. If the last great master was beyond amazing, then the next one has to be a master of masters. Sure, he's just a shoe salesman, but he's hushed-aweARGENTINE/ hushed-awe. Where will this nuclear arms race ever end!? On Jun 9, 2008, at 7:24 PM, Chris, UK wrote: Marketing or hype? Too polite to call it fraud, Janis? ;) Sadly this is one aspect of tango which some Brits do every bit as well as the Argentines. E.g. this UK teaching couple http://tinyurl.com/ 5pmbh4 who claim to have won the World Argentine Tango Show Championship. Despite there being no record of a World Argentine Tango Show Championship ever having been held. -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] More Nuevo bashing. Why??
I think there are two or more definitions of nuevo tango. (1) I learned from Gustavo, Fabian and Chicho back in the last century, and as far as I understand, they taught Argentine Tango. They developed a method for analyzing, learning and training in Argentine Tango. They tried steps on both sides, or reversed the leader's step to the follower, and examined what you had to change for things to work. Sometimes that meant compromising the embrace, or sometimes that meant dropping the embrace. Of particular value to me from that training was the concept of axis, and maintaining a balance between the axis of the partners. I use this concept whether I'm dancing open or close, and it is immensely useful for diagnosis of technical flaws when learning new moves or teaching. But, all those concepts are about learning traditional Argentine Tango, as well as the techniques which make it easy and make a wide variety of steps possible. If you watch Gustavo dance, his style of dancing appears very much in the school of traditional salon or salon/ fantasy tango. He has a knack for making an extremely difficult move appear super-easy. (2) Now, if I understand correctly, some people these days are using the term Nuevo Tango to mean a different style of tango, or tango danced to non-tango music, or tango danced without respect for the dance floor, or tango as a collection of cool moves (like the the mermaid move, where the leader picks up the follower and swings her legs around in a giant circle while she flips her feet like fins; Laugh away, I've seen it!) To me, this second definition of Nuevo Tango isn't really about tango. I mean, at a practice or on stage dance to whatever music you want, or dance whatever style you want, or do whatever cool moves you want. It's a free world. There are no rules about what steps are legal or aren't. C (3) A milonga is something different from stage or a practice floor. A milonga is a social setting in which there are certain rules and conventions. Mostly, these can be boiled down to: respecting the people around you, fitting into the social environment and energy of the crowd, listening and dancing to the music, taking care of your partner and using good floor-craft. Or am I wrong? Are there actually people who advocate that you can do whatever you want at a milonga: running into people or racing around or zig-zagging between lanes? On May 12, 2008, at 1:44 PM, David Thorn wrote: I may be a 60 something close embrace dancer, but I am almost embarrassed by the curmudgeonly attitudes expressed by my fellow dancers. I remain totally unable to comprehend the animosity towards what is merely an extension of traditional tango, and which is danced by many (including Andres his wife Meredith) to traditional tango music with beauty, grace, and musicality. Is it jealousy? Is it fear of change? Is it bad tribal behavior? Evolutionary biology meets grouchy old people? I'm clueless! Cheers, D. David Thorn ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango Teaching and certification
I completely changed my curriculum when I went to learn a new dance. I tried Lindy, but the concepts were too random. I tried West Coast swing (basically the same as Lindy, only slower and straightened out). Same concepts as Lindy, but the instructional methdology was much more directed and clear. At the basic level, WCS is taught as a set of 6 or 8 basic patterns that fit the music as a 6 or 8 count moves. A leader can attend a month of classes and pick up most of these patterns one by one, and immediately start dancing. Yes, he's wooden, and yes, he's just repeating patterns. 2 or 6 months later (or maybe never), a miracle occurs, and the man is dancing intuitively, changing off the different patterns without thinking, swapping in and out new moves, and ready to start learning more stuff. So, I changed from an analytical approach: walking, turns, cross- footed theory, to a small-element approach. I also changed to a more directed approach: Here's the music, here are 8 or 10 short sequences that fit the music. If you have memorized 3 or 4 moves, you are already qualified to get up and dance. Yes, their wooden. Yes, 2 or 6 (or never) months later a miracle occurs But, as they say in Perl, there is more than one way to do it, that is, tango is also a Pathologically Eclectic Rubish Lister. On May 2, 2008, at 6:58 AM, Paul Shrivastava wrote: As a life long academic also involved in building educational institutions let me throw in my 2-cents into this conversation. I have reviewed all the formal syllabuses that I could find online (about 20) and outlines of about 50 workshops by all sorts of Tango teachers from US and BA. The lack of uniformity and standards is apparent event to a casual observer. Tango to me is simultaneously a dance, a music and a culture. Just learning the steps without knowing the emotional and cultural and intellectual meanings behind the dance, is like learning to bake cakes from a ready-made mix, instead of using basic ingredients. You may still get a cake out of it, but it is not the same. Most Tango teaching today focuses on steps, some teacher/workshops pay some attention musicality and emotionality. But, there as no standards. ... Paul ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Communities
I like a quote attributed to Clay: There's more than enough to go around. In other words, tango communities are not a zero sum game. There is ALWAYS a new angle, a different venue or an audience nobody else is reaching: high school, prisons!, gays. My quote (I don't know whether I invented it): Nobody is at their best when they are insecure.: People do all kinds of wierd, anxious, even self-destructive things when they don't trust their own competence. Really, if you are all that good, than you are going to succeed, even if they get in your way. On Apr 29, 2008, at 11:38 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you, Ron, for the nice words about Portland in your recent post about communities. We were extremely fortunate to have Clay Nelson as our original resident teacher and primary organizer in the mid-90's. His If it's good for tango, it'll be good for the community approach has remained a significant factor in sustaining Portland's positive attitude toward, and acceptance of, multiple styles of dancing and teaching. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Are they really Tango Gods?.. or could it be me?
I don't think that's all there is. It is also undoubtedly true that BsAs. has had quite some time to develop an ethos of tango that different cultures have a hard time to develop or even embrace - certainly the ultra- individualistic and undoubtedly more abrasive USA (where in-your-face assertiveness is seen much more as a virtue). WTF? You've been watching too much US television and too many of our Conservative politicians. In the cultural sense, individual N. Americans are more likely to be relatively conflict averse. We have other negative stereotypes that I'm willing to admit to over beers. Too much pseudo-self-esteem, perhaps. Argentine culture has some common stereotypes as well. Across Latin America, they tell jokes about it, hell, even Argentines repeat these same jokes. Anyway, you will find that on the individual level, people are pretty warm and friendly, no matter what the culture. Tom Stermitz Denver Tango Festivals http://LaEternaMilonga.com Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change')
On Apr 28, 2008, at 10:01 AM, Oleh Kovalchuke wrote: In the way I dance tango, weight shifting per se is not a lead at all. I lead the follower by moving her body axis. As long as I don't move her axis, I can do all kind of steps with my feet: shift weight, do grapevine, whatever, and my partner will not step ... Your dance style might differ. And its OK. -- Oleh Kovalchuke Argentine Tango : Connection, Balance, Rhythm http://tangospring.com Oleh also points out that you can disassociate your legs from your body, which opens up a whole bunch of possibilities to prevent or ask for a weight change. Of course, there are multiple methods of causing her to change weight, from coarse to sublime: - leader changes weight - follower steps on the slow beat unless prevented - leader shifts axis - leader lifts shoulder (uggh!) - leader bends axis - leader settles hips - leader pushes hips out - leader rotates (spirals) - leader rotates (pivots) - leader lifts and set down follower with arm - leader uses tummy to lift and set down - leader uses hands to move follower The good leader uses multiple techniques at the same time, which can make the lead extremely subtle, yet extremely clear. Some of the above techniques could feel really bad if too large or in isolation, but as part of the whole gestalt of weight change, they are all viable or useful depending on the situation. I think the only one I really don't use is the shoulder lift or the bending axis. In my tango I don't like an axis that buckles. Some tango dancers do use movement ideas from swing dancing, which includes a bending axis. FOOTFALLS As for the thought that a good follower or leader can always feel their partner's footsteps. An excellent dancer can soften the weight change and maintain a stable enough axis that their partner can't feel it. This is difficult at the highest levels, but good axis control and quality of weight change is a characteristic of all the great dancers I know. As for the footfall itself... that deserves a world of technique in itself. Tom Stermitz Denver Tango Festivals http://LaEternaMilonga.com Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Are they really Tango Gods?.. or could it be me?
Off topic, off list. Look, I'm not thin skinned, and I'm not sensitive about criticism of my country. There's plenty to criticize; I'll be first, but again over beers, not in email, which never is a good forum for solving problems. I'm just surprised at your stereotypes. Working for a go-getter US high-tech company might not present you with many typical americans. I'm imagining the CEO of my last company storming into your office... but I digress. Speaking of stereotype, are you saying that N. Americans (Canadians too?) are aggressive, while Argentines are conflict averse? On Apr 28, 2008, at 12:41 PM, Alexis Cousein wrote: Tom Stermitz wrote: You've been watching too much US television and too many of our Conservative politicians. Uhm - I happen to work for a US based company, you know. I *am* familiar with more than the stereotypes. In the cultural sense, individual N. Americans are more likely to be relatively conflict averse. Yes, but not actually in the same *way* that someone from BsAs. would be. For one thing, they're much less afraid of losing face, which fosters a more direct method of communication (in which you don't pussyfoot around in a conversation). ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance in Tango
In the beginner classes, the gender ratios are always close to 50/50. The problem is in the upper level classes. I don't want to be harsh, but look at the Adv-beginner and Intermediate classes for the different teachers in one community. Some are 50/50 some are 80/20. In other words, the problem is methodological and intentional (or ignorant). Retention rates in tango are low, so the filtering process is determines the gender ratios. Out of a new beginner class, maybe 90% quit. If the rejection rate is unbalanced, say 90% women and 95% men, the teacher is creating double the number of women. In other words, the filtering is so drastic that very small changes in the filtering process has a huge effect down the road. It therefore pays off critically if you can figure out how to change that situation, which specifically means increasing the number of men who succeed. If there are extra guys, the number of women will increase to fill the slots. Women have multiple ways to become excited about tango, and in N. America women are more likely to have danced as children. A beginner woman can get a pretty amazing dance from an advanced leader, so she is more likely to see the rewards of sticking it out. It is difficult to create the equivalent for the man. Performance anxiety, in terms of social success and in getting her to do the dance steps, is probably the biggest obstacle for the men. After teaching for 12 years, I've arranged and rearranged the experience for beginner guys to ensure that they walk out of each class, and each class series feeling successful. Retention of the guys happens if the teacher can create the following learning experience: At the end of a one hour class, most of the guys can walk their partner through a dance at a regular milonga. They are still beginners, but they can manage (feel they are in control of) their simple vocabulary, they aren't running into people or stopping in confusion, and they feel like they are almost dancing. Notice it is about whether they FEEL successful. There are several specific things that help this: - Simplify; tango takes time - I use simple steps repeated until the men feel their movements are easy - I attach the simple steps to the musical phrase so that they feel right - Improvisation is built by swapping short sequences; it is harder to split up longer sequences. - I don't teach fancy figures, as that leads men to frustration. - I don't teach long sequences, as that turns tango into an intellectual experience, and avoids the intuitive, physical learning. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance in Tango
Thanks for the flattery, but as they say, there's more than one way to do it. You can't provide a formula that exactly works for everyone. My suggestions are useful for teachers to try things, fail and try again, and think through their methods. I mean, it's easy for me to say Make the guys feel successful, but in practice each teacher has to make it work with their own personality, and their own culture. I think the biggest problem is that teachers present material at the level they understand it, not in the layers that make it easy for beginners to achieve success. I've worked with some teachers. The group in Ann Arbor asked me to help build a curriculum. They have taken my ideas, made them their own, and gone much further than me. On Apr 24, 2008, at 9:19 AM, Mario wrote: The above makes SUPER good sense to me! ..I remember when first seeing and becoming 'hooked' on AT, the only thing that I prayed for, was to be able to navigate a revolution of the dance floor..much as Tom describes it. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] on open-embrace teaching (was something on inventing steps)
On Apr 5, 2008, at 1:30 PM, Tango For Her wrote: Again, across the great USA, the teachers with the most successful classes are going out and finding 6 or 8 step patterns that are tricky or elegant and bringing them back home. Why? Because that is how you keep men in your classes. The men don't, as a norm, see that they are learning finnesse. They see that they are learning a pattern that they can show off. In my experience, this is false. I see the opposite, i.e. men don't stay for tricky figures, rather they stay when the material is presented in a way that makes them feel successful. Teaching complicated figures causes men to quit out of frustration. Women have more patience, are more willing to take privates, and improve by dancing with the teacher. Tango is difficult for the guys, especially at the beginning. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] subjects that never etc.
On Apr 2, 2008, at 1:13 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robin wrote: Especially interested in two holds that I observe these days in the milongas in BA. First the draping of the woman's left arm down across the shoulder of the man with elbow pointed at the ceiling and the other with the woman's left arm placed very low, almost around the man's waist. Personally, I think the elbow up and arm coming back down looks really weird. It also raises the shoulder which can have back injury consequences. My understanding is that these women are copying an individual style or one-off they saw someone in Buenos Aires do. It's a common enough story: A new, pretty young thing becomes belle of the ball for the year, she has a personal quirk or distinctive mark, which gets copied and starts a new style. I heard the same thing with the nose pressed into the leader's cheek. They saw someone do it, then copied it. Women with their butt sticking up and arched lower back is another new style. On that one, all I can say is, these 20-somethings are simply not yet injured. As to women looking to the right with the man, I prefer it and teach it. (Danel and Maria taught it that way, said it was classic tango de salon style whereas looking over the man's shoulder evolved more from the milonguero camp.) But I never correct a woman who doesn't do it, because most don't. It doesn't seem to be that much of an issue to me. If I were choreographing something I might prefer the head that way, but at the social milonga it's no big deal. Cheers, Charles In Buenos Aires I've seen the woman facing the same way as the man or different directions over each other's shoulders. Probably 75 or 85% look over each other's shoulders. I don't have a stylistic opinion about either pose. But I am fairly short, so for me, the look the same direction is just not functional. It cuts of half of my vision. It also feels more asymmetric, which makes my back hurt. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] followers expressiveness
I've always felt that the follower's role teaches technique at first, while the leader's role teaches musicality. One disadvantage of the follower's role, is the emphasis on being adaptive and doing nothing more that what is lead. This can make it harder to discover a voice, and the spaces where the follower contributes. Learning to lead can help follower's learn how to impose musicality on the dance, find a stronger voice, as well as discover what other follower's feel like. It takes an experienced follower (and leader!) to realize that the follower isn't just an obedient puppet. One of the discoveries when you dance with women in Argentina is that they are oh-so-adaptive, yet oh-so-alive. The just following is a myth at the higher level, at least in close-embrace. On Mar 18, 2008, at 6:52 AM, jackie ling wong wrote: now, i have led many followers... and there are followers who just follow which is nice and then there are followers who dance with you who dance melodically... and hear the notes that are emphasized and can translate that to their dance. it feels like they are reading my mind because my expression in the dance becomes so easy. her/his boleo considers not only the time of the movement but the energy, how the beat is used (emphasized at the beg. of the beat...etc)... it feels like painting. ... my question... how do you teach this? is there an exercise that can help people understand what i am saying? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] tall men in close embrace
They (both leader and follower) have to rearrange their concept of leg length. Both leader and follower have the SAME leg length, if you measure length from the connection point, i.e. the tummy or solar plexus or wherever it is. In other words, the leg actually goes up into the tummy. It is as simple as just thinking about it differently. Also, it hurts if the followers reach back, instead they need to stretch downward, and let the legs pass by more slowly, like a pendululm. Long strides come from the supporting leg, not the moving leg. Also, the leader has to maintain posture with hips and body forward. The moment the leader tries to compensate for her short legs by holding his hip backward, the partners lose the connection. Finally, the leader's and follower's legs may almost brush at the thighs (and tummy, if need be). This keeps legs more synchronized in their movements. Actually touching thighs may feel trapped, but almost brushing feels nestled. On Mar 10, 2008, at 10:34 AM, jackie ling wong wrote: i have two very tall guys... like alex krebs... in my beginner close embrace class. i have tried everything and still they come very close to stepping on their partner's feet. i can dance with them because i really extend but others have problems. they are beginners so i understand the problems with leaning extension, intention etc at that level. i also explain that you have to find the connection with every partner you dance with because size, height, embrace is different with each person. but... does anyone have any special advice that they find resonates with the giants? are there any differences? in emphasis? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] What Argentine Tango is, and what it is not.
On Mar 7, 2008, at 4:17 AM, Alexis Cousein wrote: Floyd Baker wrote: I believe and have been told by people here that it is very much what Tango is.., and what it is not. Tango, imho, is such an entirely separate entitity from ballroom that I do not even consider it a dance at all. I don't consider ballroom a dance, but a sport much like figure skating is ;). I'm not sure I understand this discussion. It doesn't correspond to my experiences with ballroom. I learned ballroom dancing (not learn in a studio) before I learned AT: Foxtrot, One-step, Peabody, Half-and-Half, Waltz, Tango. These are all improvised social dances, not choreographies. Before that, I danced a little country western, two-step and things that were basically improvised foxtro In the United States, ballroom dancing has a social tradition that goes back to the 1910s. Country Western pretty much has an unbroken lineage back to the 1940s. In the Western US there were working CW bands and multiple dance venues even in small towns up through the 1980s. This sort of collapsed in the 1990s to a handful of venues in bigger cities after Nashville got a hold of CW and turned it into a rockified genre with sappy red-neck ballads, big hats and bigger hair. Ballroom did get really messed up with the studio system and their Bronze, Silver, Gold marketing, but even there, the studios always held, and still hold, social dances every Saturday. Most of the clientele consists of married couples or Dance Widows hiring a professional to dance her at the occasional showcases. I think you guys are discussing International Style Competition Ballroom. That is it's own sub genre, that doesn't have much to do with social ballroom dancing. But again, I would expect any decent International Ballroom dancer to be able to dance socially with improvised movements. Argentine Tango also has its choreographed side, the stage tango that may have been more popular during certain decades. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango Dancer Census
I think you are a bit random on your numbers and cities. 500 in New York? Admittedly it is hard to define passionate, vs regular vs newcomer vs got-a-new-boyfriend-who-doesn't-dance. It can't be too restrictive like regularly attends festivals or multiple trips to Buenos Aires. There are a lot of people who do tango regularly as a past time, but not as a dedicated part of their life. I used to keep a good mailing list and tracking in Denver, but now that there are so many others who teach, my stats aren't so complete. It used to have 300 regular dancers, 400 if you included those who came out less often. A couple obvious things: there is a lot of churn in the newcomers; And, longer term dancers often reduce their attendance from 2-3 times per week to something more reasonable like 1-2 times per month. Also, a mature community gets a bit more spread out over all the different milongas by geography and time. You might think someone isn't coming anymore, but they have a different favorite milonga. Maybe your benchmark city has the following pattern of milonga attendance: DISTINCT ATTENDANCE: 100 Once or twice per week 200 Once per month 400 Once per six months I think you can approximately double this to count group classes and privates. Denver is a medium-sized city with a population of 3 million within a 60 mile (100 km) radius). So, if you compare Denver to the benchmark, we could ask whether it has 200 DIFFERENT people attending milongas, practicas or classes once or more per week. I think that is too low; I'd say 300-400 different people do one or more tango events per week. We have a lot of milongas and a lot of teachers, so it is hard to add up all the different places, and harder still to count distinct people. TOTAL WEEKLY ATTENDANCE CALCULATION Probably an easier calculation would be to simply add up the total attendance at all the milongas/practices or the classes per week. Separate out the newcomers left over from the beginner class, and just count just the paid attendance if you want. By that measure, Denver might have 400 dancers each week. I think we have a classroom census almost as high (we have a lot of teachers, and a lot of classes per week, although attendance varies). On Mar 5, 2008, at 2:02 PM, Alex wrote: If you narrow the search to people who are passionate about it, perhaps obsessed by it, dance (or take classes) every week or at least once or twice a month... I will start in the U.S... Take Denver...I would estimate 200-300 dancers there that fit this passionate category ...although this figure might be high... Let's use 200 for the average large city... Here's a rough table... Denver200 Seattle 500 Portland 500 San Francisco 500 Los Angeles 200 San Diego 100 Phoenix/Tuscon100 Austin50 Dallas50 Houston 50 Chicago 100 St. Louis 50 Baton Rouge/New Orleans 50 Birmingham50 Atlanta 100 Miami 200 Ann Arbor 100 New York 200 Boston200 Small towns x 50 states 500 Passionate Total3800 Round up 5000 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
I don't think you are being anti-american; just angry and rude. I don't understand the anger. Rudeness can occur in any culture. I do not teach the 8CB. I don't do the 8CB. It does not work on a social dance floor. Try it Oops, ran into this guy; oops ran into that guy; oops why the heck is that guy stepping backwards onto me. Watch the poor beginners with the 8CB struggle, become frustrated, and quit. If you an avoid imprinting the 8CB on beginners, you can at least doubles your retention rate. I've been to Buenos Aires a number of times. Frankly? There are a lot of bad dancers in Argentina. It was better 10 years ago, although maybe I've improved as much as the quality there has declined. I will say that, in general, even the bad Argentine dancers usually have an understanding of the feel, music and meaning of tango. There are several fairly significant differences (generally speaking) between Argentine teachers and US teachers. First, Tango isn't taught in a weekend workshop. It is a week-after- week practice. The master of the month blows in like the wind, and leaves no trace but a few wacky ganchos, bruised ankles and injured backs. (Actually, there is a strange marketing arms race of superlatives about each and the next master of the masters.) (1) Teaching in Argentina, the students are more likely to know the music, and know what the dance looks and feels like. Arriving at the typical milonga, the failure of the 8CB is immediately obvious. You could almost get away with just teaching steps, knowing that the students just need a framework. In the US, we are faced with teaching the cultural package of tango, not just steps. Here is the music; here is what it looks like and feels like; here is how the posture is; here is how a milonga is organized. I think most Argentine teachers have no concept of how to teach the cultural aspects to foreigners and just throw up their hands. (2) Most (not all) Argentines who travel have achieved mastery and acclaim in Buenos Aires. This normally means they are great stage dancers or they are good at the athletic, nuevo style. A super-skilled dancer is not always the best person to teach normal-skilled people. Nothing wrong with nuevo or stage, but 99% of my students are normal, people, doing tango for fun. They are never going to be on stage, and they would need lots of training (and to subtract 20 years off their age) to achieve the fancy nuevo vocabulary. As a result many (not all) US teachers and I focus on social style of tango. (3) Most Argentines don't have the experience of creating and nurturing a tango community from scratch. Advertising; gathering in beginner students; getting them to stick and learn; creating the transition from beginner to Intermediate; watching them figure out how to dance in a milonga setting. You learn a few things in 10 years of teaching week-in, week-out, multiple levels of class, watching your students go out onto the dance floor, even watching some of them succeed in Argentina. De donde sos vos?, Como es, que no bailas como estranjero, Who was your teacher?, Who taught you to dance like an Argentine?. On Feb 13, 2008, at 7:49 AM, Keith wrote: I'm not being disrespectful, but I really, really have trouble understanding the Americans on this List. I assume you'll freely admit that no American can dance anywhere near the level of the Argentines.And yet you still insist on teaching Tango your way and not the Argentine way. Why is that? Do you really think you know better? If you do, it's OK, just say so. ... I'm sorry if you think I'm being anti-American, as I've been accused before on this List. I'm not - but you're trying to change Tango for the worse and I just don't like what you're doing. Why can't you just do things the Argentine way? I guess that's my question. Keith, HK On Wed Feb 13 1:07 , Tom Stermitz sent: On a social dance floor, the 8CB w/DBS is COMPLETELY non functional. When you are social dancing, you have to break the pattern every two steps, so why bother to learn a useless pattern. For a beginner, it is harmful: - It creates rote-patterns, - It takes away their prior ability to just walk around the room - It doesn't feel like dancing - It is impossible for them to dance it with grace and musicality. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
It depends on the situation. On stage, no problem. For an advanced dancer, no problem. On a social dance floor, the 8CB w/DBS is COMPLETELY non functional. When you are social dancing, you have to break the pattern every two steps, so why bother to learn a useless pattern. For a beginner, it is harmful: - It creates rote-patterns, - It takes away their prior ability to just walk around the room - It doesn't feel like dancing - It is impossible for them to dance it with grace and musicality. It is completely possible to take a brand new dancer, and in one-hour teach them to walk musically around the room. The 8CB w/DBS forces them into months of lessons before they achieve the walk around the room, and many months or years before they come back to the music. OH WAIT! Maybe it is a business strategy. It's like teaching patterns in Ballroom Dance: Bronze, Silver, Gold. Restrain their learning so they keep buying expensive lessons. Instill bad habits so they have to take lots of private lessons. On Feb 12, 2008, at 9:44 AM, Keith wrote: Mash, To break a habit is not difficult - just stop doing it and stop whining. Problem solved. There's nothing wrong with the 8-step basic. But if you've been doing it over and over until it became a habit, that's ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the paso basico.
Milonga steps come along so quickly that you don't have time to think. I notice that people become intuitive-impvorisational dancers more quickly in milonga. Then the challenge is to translate that over to tango. A rhythmic dance in crowded conditions is one way to force that intuitive-improvisation. When you have longer sequences on an empty floor, you have every opportunity to complete the same-old, practiced sequence. When you are forced to rock-step out of trouble, and change your idea on the fly, then you are forced out of the routine. Yes, it is more challenging. Use simpler steps. Only by challenging your well-laid plans will you learn adaptability. On Feb 12, 2008, at 9:43 AM, 'Mash wrote: On Tue, Feb 12, 2008 at 08:20:55AM -0700, Tom Stermitz wrote: Also, I've found that beginners confidence improves tremendously when they feel that the movements make sense. This increases retention. Longer sequences force the dancers into more intellectual or merely rote relationship with dance. When the leader doesn't feel like he is DANCING, he is more likely to quit. Exactamente! You are completely right. For someone like myself who has always danced because of how the music moves me and not because how the dance moves me makes learning tango horrendous at times. It is very rare that I just feel like I am dancing Tango, Milonga YES, that is why I love it. The problem with Tango that I see is that for some reason there is this pressure to know how to do steps and that if you don't do the steps correctly then you let down your partner and those watching. If somone asked me what my least favourite thing to do right now is, it would be to go to a milonga. Practica, fine, perfect even as everyone is just mucking about and enjoying themselves. Milonga, no thank you it feels like I am going to a job interview. ... To sum everything up, Tango has yet to become a dance for me and I am trying to find out why. ... 'Mash London,UK ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the paso basico.
Mash says nobody he knows was NOT taught the 8CB w/DBS? How strange! I thought teachers in most places had moved to more modern methods. Are these Argentines or non-Argentines? Stage dancers or social dancers? Nuevo, Salon or Milonguero? That sequence is useful for creating choreographies on stage, but gets in the way for social dancing. At the upper level it isn't so harmful; teachers can use it or any number of other sequences for presenting an idea, although then it is a teaching framework, not a basic. Mash has noticed that his 8-count pattern is awkward, partly because it is rote because more importantly, because the movements aren't connected to the music. That is a huge insight. The basic musical phrasing of tango is 4+4=8. At the beginner level, working with 4-count pieces gives the leader smaller, simpler sequences that allows him to just walk, but walk on the phrase of the music. This teaches musicality at the same time as basic steps. Also, I've found that beginners confidence improves tremendously when they feel that the movements make sense. This increases retention. Longer sequences force the dancers into more intellectual or merely rote relationship with dance. When the leader doesn't feel like he is DANCING, he is more likely to quit. On Feb 12, 2008, at 6:35 AM, 'Mash wrote: On Tue, Feb 12, 2008 at 12:44:00PM +, Chris, UK wrote: 'Mash London,UK wrote: paso basico. ... I really wish I never learnt the damn pattern Wow. I didn't know there was still anyone in London teaching that kind of thing. -- Chris This is not a reflection on my current teachers but on my first 2 months experiance of Tango a year ago. To be honest I know noone who when starting Tango is not taught the paso basico in some form or another. You fall back onto what you know the best and this basic step sequence must have been etched into my head when I first started learning. I am just wondering if anyone else has ever experianced this and how they broke out of the sequence. 'Mash London,UK ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Kizomba Canyengue together at last....
The rivers of culture often divide far back in time. They may meet again, but sometimes it is just morphological coincidence. From all these videos, Kizomba seems more closely related to salsa and african club dancing than it is to tango. African club music got back to Lisbon following the collapse of the Portuguese colonial empire. I saw some awesome african music in Lisbon nightclubs in the mid-eighties. Not like any of the other afro-pop stuff, like King Sunny Ode. Kwende Lima's accent is totally portuguese, rather than Brazilian. Very odd to my ears, as the Brazilian is so musical and the portuguese so chopped-up and like Spain spanish. This suggests to me that he is of Portuguese African heritage, meaning that he might know kizomba, but would never have known canyengue, unless he learned it via tango. He clearly knows some tango. In that videos he does ochos, sandwiches and other specifically tango elements. Frankly, I think he is combining his knowledge of Kizomba and tango to make a show, something new. I mean, you've got people mixing west-coast swing (RB music) with tango. Sure, both dances have african roots, but it is a bit reductionist to claim that the connecting thread is African. The direct connecting thread comes from a few dancers (or maybe a single dancer... guess who?) in the US in the 1990s who knew both dances. On Feb 5, 2008, at 4:28 PM, m i l e s wrote: Hi, ... In my neophyte tango mind, there can be no doubt that the two dances are connected by a very clear thread. Tango's roots are buried forever in the stream of time, trade routes, and royal decrees. What we have today is what we have. And we're working with that. However, to me, the roots of both Canyengue and Kizomba in Tango are clear as day. And that's what I'm goin with. Miles. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] [TangoDJ] DJ'ing with an Ipod
Sort of, but you have to become familiar enough that you don't make mistakes. You can set it up with multiple playlists, one for each orchestra/ style, like 1940s Di Sarli Tangos, or D'Arienzo Waltzes. Then, you can choose the playlist you want for the upcoming tanda. Start playing on the song you want, and at the end click to choose the next song if you dislike the preset order. As you come to the end of the tanda, you can move to another playlist to trigger the curtain. I would suggest a mini-mixer so you can handle volume adjustments with a real knob. Possibly use two iPods so you can play one while fiddling with the other. On Feb 1, 2008, at 8:06 AM, masatoshi ono wrote: Hola pinchadiscos, I have to DJ on a place where going with my laptop would not be reasonable. I'm looking forward to buy an Ipod Classic 80 G for that venue and similar others to come. Does anybody know if it's possible to DJ with an Ipod ? Is it possible to modify a play list on the fly without interrupting the music that's playing ? Gracias desde ya Leonardo Beker-Gomez __ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (2)Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Calendar To write or reply to the whole group, make sure the recipient address [EMAIL PROTECTED] Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe RECENT ACTIVITY • 1 New Members Visit Your Group Y! Entertainment World of Star Wars Rediscover the force. Explore now. Search Ads Get new customers. List your web site in Yahoo! Search. Best of Y! Groups Check out the best of what Yahoo! Groups has to offer. . __,_._,___ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Bruno Alfonso post re Chicho's embrace
I've noticed that excellent dancers of all styles use all kinds of embraces: - apilado to vertical, - touching to open, - almost symmetrical to slightly V to extremely V - light arms to rigid arms. - always close to variable embrace - balance between independent axis or locking the axis using a strong frame. Each embrace has its benefits or restrictions. But, the embrace is primarily a stylistic choice. Certainly, remaining in a very close embrace makes the no-pivot ochos crossing behind a useful technique. Conversely, spiraling and opening slightly allows clearance for the woman's hips so she can pivot. To me the woman's technique of doing ochos is the primary differentiation between open and close embrace: does she have to crank the pivot, or can she just float the leg. From what I have noticed, it appears to me that dancers in Buenos Aires have a MODERATE TENDENCY to use a little more V in the Frame and a little more tilt to the apilado when compared with foreigners. They have a STRONG TENDENCY to dance in a very close embrace, whether always apilado or variable salon embrace. V-Frame. Not more versatile, just different. This is certainly beneficial when one or the other of the partners has a large stomach, or when the follower is a lot shorter than the leader. Gustavo's partner is shorter than he is. I also notice that Gustavo chooses a tango pinta (look) that matches the traditional salon, even while his technique and training allow non-traditional elements. In general, the asymmetry of V-Frame makes a number of things more difficult. Walking to the right of the follower may be easier, but walking to the left is harder (requires a bigger twist). It is harder to do the same thing to left and right The biggest issue I have with V-Frame is that learning tango in a V creates an asymmetrical foundation. When I dance with followers who are locked into a hard V-frame, it feels rigid and hurtful to my back. The traditional tango embrace is already a bit asymmetrical, so I feel it is better to start with things as symmetric as possible, and then use a slight V (in my preferred case), as a pose on top of symmetry. On Jan 28, 2008, at 11:43 AM, Nussbaum, Martin wrote: Bruno, the embrace used in the Chicho Poema clip is known as a V embrace. It is actually used quite a lot by traditional salon dancers, as well as more modern masters, such as Gustavo. It is much more versatile than the flat-on, chest on chest embrace, in that transitions and turns that might require a slight loosening of the embrace- to what I call a semi-open embrace, result in an effect similar to the breathing of the bandoneon, bellows opening and closing. From the square on apilado embrace, such changes are more rare, if they occur at all, because they would be far more abrupt and noticeable, also because those who dance it really want to keep the apilado throughout the piece. The v embrace also allows the woman to maintain her separate axis more, especially if it is opened a little further in a giro. I am sure we will see a lot of posts disagreeing with this, but I think the v embrace sued by chicho lets the follower rotate her hips more in a turn, and take bigger steps which allow for things like sacadas, whereas follower in apilado tend to turn with hips kept facing more toward leader, which causes turn steps to look like short back crosses. I may not be explaining this very well, but you should experiment with different types of embraces, you may find that you prefer a particular embrace for some partners but not others, and for some music but not others. Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Belle Epoque apartments for temporary rental in Buenos Aires
I have stayed at Laura's apartment at the corner of Ayacucho Lavalle. It is a clean, lovely (not quite elegant), medium-sized apartment in a historic building with an iron elevator. Buenos Aires has a lot of these pretty, ca 1900 Paris-style buildings It is quite centrally located. Easy to walk downtown or to several milongas. Not easy to walk to Nino Bien, but you probably want to use a taxi to that neighborhood. Corrientes is one block over. The street corner is full of traffic, but that description covers about 99% of centrally-located Buenos Aires corners. For quiet anywhere near the center of town, you need to choose an interior courtyard. Also, approximately 99% of central Buenos Aires streets have lots of shopping and restaurants on the main floor. Welcome to city life. It is certainly worthwhile getting personal recommendations about any place you intend to stay. Someone like Laura or a rental agency has enough of a track record that you aren't going to be screwed on refund of deposit. Some of these places insist on cash for all or partial rent and deposit. You may have more recourse if you can pay by credit card. As I recall, Laura had you pay to her US bank account (she is American). Breaking into the milongas is a completely different issue. The boleo-gancho-back-sacada sequences don't get you very far at most milongas. Yeah, El Beso is a bit tough to break into, even if you dance reasonably well. That can be true at a number of other milongas, (unless you are young and blonde, but that's not telling you anything new). Some of the afternoon milongas are fairly easier to break into, assuming you have fundamentally decent skills. Not to get into a polemic about it, but that means, close, tidy, musical social dancing the way they do it in Buenos Aires. If you dance this way, it is still a surprise to a lot of Buenos Aires dancers. They still have this prejudice that foreigners have no clue about tango They probably have plenty of bad examples to generalize from. To be even handed, I've noticed that a lot of social dancers in Buenos Aires have pretty bad technique (ow, my aching back). I would say that is an illustration of why women shouldn't try to learn just dancing. On Jan 23, 2008, at 11:25 AM, Janis Kenyon wrote: Jerry wrote: Does anybody know anything about these apartments? I've heard several unhappy stories that they are not what they seem. I'm curious because a tanguera friend ... I know the street corner of Ayacucho and Lavalle, but I have never seen the apartments. If you want to sleep after being out dancing until 3:00 in the morning, this isn't the location for you. There are bus lines on both streets. That means constant traffic and pollution. If you have heard this from those who have rented there, then believe it. The apartments are advertised as being in Barrio Norte. They are located in the El Once wholesale shopping district of the barrio Balvanera, one block from Corrientes which is the main street to downtown. The apartments are two blocks to El Beso, but that is one of the most difficult milongas to break into as a tourist. They are close to La Nacional, but the milonga is not worth attending. Nino Bien is mainly tourists. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Belle Epoque apartments for temporary rental in Buenos Aires
I have found that the natives are relatively friendly at El Arranque. That location is in use several times per week, presumably under different organizers. On Jan 23, 2008, at 2:24 PM, Dubravko Kakarigi wrote: Talking about milongas in the neighborhood - El Arranque, an excellent afternoon milonga, is just three blocks away on the other side of Corrientes. Also, there are several places within easy walking distance of Ayachucho y Lavalle where various good teachers teach group classes. ...dubravko ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango is a dance of collections or pivots
On Jan 21, 2008, at 12:56 PM, Tango For Her wrote: I say that tango is a dance of collections or pivots rather than a walking dance. I say this to change to focus of the dance to where the real tango takes place. I disagree that this technical explanation gets at the real tango. Music and feel are more important than technique. You can do a spectacular real tango by dropping one or any number of these technical elements. I use the term pivot to indicate the point in a step where the feet are collected. You are describing a staccato form of pivoting. This is a perfect example of repeating what teachers SAY instead of looking at what they ACTUALLY DO. Normally, when walking or doing ochos, you want to pass-by-close or pass-by-while-pivoting or pass-by-then-pivot or pivot-then-pass- by, not snap to the collect, pivot, snap to the reach. The default movement for walking or ochos should be a flowing, not a staccato. Staccato is an interesting decoration, but flowing is a better foundation for walking and ochos. Women who have been taught the staccato collect-pivot-reach have a hard time doing the flowing pass-by-while-pivoting motion. It disables boleos, which are more commonly accomplished with flowing motions, rather than staccato ones. Even the word itself COLLECT causes a lot of problems by making women (men also) think they need to snap to the middle of each step. The sultry quality of movement is better evoked using the words: PASS BY CLOSE. And if you look at the actual dancers, from nuevo to milonguero, you see that 95% of the time they are passing by close, not collecting. Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org 2525 Birch St Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] teaching technique vs. choreography
Jay makes some good points. The most important point he makes is: Beginning students are anxious to start dancing. This goes double for retaining the men. Men quit tango when they are frustrated or unconfident. Complicated patterns keep men in that frustrated, complicated mindset. It is not a personality flaw on the part of the man; rather the teacher who forgets the beginner mindset. Walking a beautiful woman around the room can be taught in a one hour class. He leaves excited, thrilled, confident, happy, successful. The SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT RULE for retaining men is to recognize this, and make sure they leave each class, each month, each workshop, each series feeling confident and successful. On Jan 18, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Jay Rabe wrote: I agree that technique (how to walk/step, posture, balance, how to lead, how to follow) is the most important thing to teach. But, some comments: 1. Learning technique is a life-long process. There are dozens if not hundreds of individual technique principles. It's not something you learn once and then you're done. You may quickly learn some key points, but refinement and fine-tuning continues for years/ decades. 2. Pure technique is pretty boring, and hardly qualifies as dancing. Beginning students are anxious to start dancing. 3. Simple steps can be executed with pretty sloppy technique. More complicated steps/patterns require more refined, more precise technique. ... I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you can't effectively teach JUST technique without boring and losing all but the most die- hard students. You have to embed the technique instruction into a dancing context of some step or pattern. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Two of My Teaching Pet Peeves
I share your two pet peeves (three if you think about it): - How to walk in a straight line. - How not to step on her feet. How not to get stepped on. - How to walk to the cross without going too far outside. (part 2) WALKING IN A STRAIGHT LINE As your body moves forward, your foot should land under your center of balance. If she is in front of you, then you are also stepping under her center of balance. This is true by stupid definition: It is called walking without falling over. But, there is a real reason why leaders have difficulty with balance and walking in a straight line. He is trying to avoid stepping on her, and compensates by moving his feet to either side. On the follower's side, she tries to overstep backwards to get her feet out of the way. Solutions: Leader needs to move forward in a natural side walk stride. A purposeful, upright, bold stride of the leader helps everything: Land heel-ball, end with the weight transfer with his hips, heart and head over the ball of the foot. This keeps his posture forward, upright and on balance. The follower's connection to his body moves her backward, and her feet can naturally float to catch her body. Landing on the ball of the foot is a stylistic treatment, that is a direct contradiction of 20 or 40 years of daily walking. Maybe it's desirable for some versions of tango (stage, for example), but for regular social dancing it is so much better to work with normal, natural movements. If you teach a class of beginners to lead with the toes or ball of the foot, you will produce a class of guys worried about their feet and mincing across the room instead of moving their bodies boldly. WALKING BACKWARDS GRACEFULLY Walking naturally backwards means that the ACTIVE leg is the supporting leg, the one that pushes her body through space, and the FLOATING leg stretches downwards and back, rather than reaching. Reaching and engaging the butt muscles, digs into her SI joints. The recently popular, culo alegre style of arching the lower back makes this much worse. Maybe the 20-year old ballerina is not yet injured, but for normal women, the wear and tear on the back is really harmful. Consider also that pregnancy loosens a woman's joints, and has a specific impact on the SI joints. There is a simple way to address this: Keep your heels downward, almost grazing the floor. A gently straight leg comes from keeping a soft butt, stretching the inner thigh, psoas and lower tummy, and stretching the achilles. Quick survey: How many women have sore backs after a workshop weekend? - Do you reach back or stretch downwards? - Is your butt soft or tight muscles? - Are you trying to take big steps? - How's your core support? - Is your belly-button pulled toward your backbone? - Is your heel pointed downward? Secondly, reaching way back, away from the leader disconnects the woman's leg from herself. She is guessing how long the stride will be, rather than matching the float of her leg to his forward movement. The most connected strides come when the leader's and follower's legs match speed and distance. One of the best exercises I have to discover this is for the follower to almost brush his thigh as it comes forward. If she can slow down her float to match his tempo, she will always be out of his way, and never out of connection, both internal and with him. Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Two of My Teaching Pet Peeves
I share your two pet peeves (three if you think about it): - How to walk in a straight line. - How not to step on her feet. How not to get stepped on. - How to walk to the cross without going too far outside. These are real issues for all newcomers to dance, and it is understandable that it would take some effort to resolve them. Teachers can and should figure out how to speed the learning process and correct bad technique earlier on. Sensible body mechanics are often compromised by stylistic ideas, which can even lead to injury. The followers back and SI joint is a weak point. First, to sympathize with the newcomer to tango: - The new leader is really afraid of stepping on her, so he typically overcompensates. - Walking backwards gracefully is difficult and certainly much more unfamiliar than walking forward. - Spiraling movements (moving outside to the left of her) are much harder to do than walking straight forward - He sees the teacher's movement, but has a tendency to exaggerate it. (Part 1) SPIRALING AND WALKING OUTSIDE (TO THE CROSS) My pet peeve is leaders who over-lead the cross. They walk way outside and their movement shouts: I'M GOING TO CROSS N!. That habituates the followers to gross, even grotesquely exaggerated movements. I know. It is popular to teach that he should lead her cross with a spiral. I prefer leading the cross mostly with the axis. I think of the leader FOLLOWING her with his spiral as he walks outside, leading the cross with the axis shifting slightly diagonal, and then un- spiraling to follow her as she moves to the cross. Again, sympathy for the beginner is important. Walking in a straight line is much easier than rotational movements: spiraling, pivoting and ochos. Walking to the cross introduces two difficult things at once: walking off to the side which has to be coordinated with a spiraling movement. The beginner visually picks it up the teacher's movement, but then exaggerates it when they try to replicate it. My solution is to keep the walk to the cross much more gentle, more linear and with less twisting. On Jan 17, 2008, at 6:27 PM, Tango For Her wrote: But, I have a few pet peeves about a lot of tango teachers. Look. You want your beginning leaders and intermediate leaders to stop knocking their followers off balance? Find ways to teach them to have their left foot step in front of them rather than off to the left. They ALL do it! STOP THEM! Why go on with your classes if you are going to keep letting them step slightly off to the left with their left foot? ... Someone, PLEASE, tell me why s many teachers teach young followers to s-s-s-s-stretch their leg out, really far, in a backstep!!! Is that the only way to teach them to have a straight knee and a beautiful leg? Can't they have it with a shorter backstep like, say, in the same county? ... Whew I'm okay. Now. Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango Co-op?
The first and most important question is What is the purpose of the Club? In my opinion, the best role of a tango club is to nurture community, which means taking a neutral or encouraging stance with respect to local teachers. So, look carefully at whether your goal is to help or compete with local teachers. If you are doing workshops and classes, you will be setting up an antagonistic relationship with local organizers. Also, consider financial risk and liability (injuries from poor instruction or what to do when a creepy guy grabs a sixteen year old). There is a particular rule of thumb for community building: You need to have 25 couples in one room in order to create the critical mass for good social interaction and growth. Maybe there is enough Salsa in Buffalo so you can have five teachers with 50 people each, but tango is more specialized, and an individual teacher has a hard time creating the snowball effect. On the other hand, Teachers are usually better than organizations at one-on-one instruction, group classes and privates. Organizations are usually best at nurturing the broader community. Individual teachers should be able to succeed or fail on their own merits or personalities without causing a rift in the community. In cities without a broader organization, there is a tendency for the tango events to be silo-ed with individual teachers, (Class 1, Class 2, Milonga). Competitive instincts (and insecurity) motivate teachers to hold tight to their students and not inform them of other events. If you have a club that is neutral and serving the needs of all the teachers, then the confident teacher will want their students to mix in the community for marketing purposes. Economies of scale favor a larger organization when it comes to advertising expenses, relating to arts funding and grants, and renting a dance space. A club needs to serve the broader needs of all the dancers, so it may be constrained to serving the lowest common denominator. If the club is inviting teachers for workshops, they have to serve everybody, not just the young and athletic. An individual teacher can choose a tighter focus, for example, specializing in show dance or nuevo which are accessible to a smaller subset of the community. Also, an individual teacher can sponsor a workshop, and then offer specific, follow-on instruction so the visitor's contribution isn't just wind blowing through the grass. Tango Colorado follows the model of cooperating with and helping local teachers. The club doesn't really do anything, except organize the community- wide practices and a few special events. They rotate through the local teachers for beginner classes allowing them to pitch their on-going classes. If a newcomer doesn't fit with teacher X, they might fit with teacher Y. Teachers all have their own styles, but the students end up trying out different teachers and mixing with each other at the practices, so most people can dance a variety of styles, not just the one favored by their teacher. Tango Colorado can afford to rent a big space (actually we own it, now). It can afford advertising. Officially neutral, it lists all teachers, DJs and local organizers in good standing on its web site. Good standing pretty much means dues are paid up; it doesn't say anything about teaching ability, that is up to the wits of the individual teacher. A teacher has to be pretty egregious to be removed from approval. Yes, there is a behavior code, but again, nothing about skill or ability. There are other models around the country. One of the most successful is the U of Michigan tango club. For the past several years they have had three ongoing classes operating in adjacent rooms, followed by a practice. The Advanced and Intermediate classes come over to the Beginner room for the practice, so in effect, the community comes to the newcomers. If they have 50 beginners in the room, suddenly the social energy explodes to 100 people. I imagine that it takes good people skills for a club to manage the personalities of the different teachers. Boston Tango Society follows the model of a club that does a lot of teaching and workshop organizing. In the old days, they did not even permit professionals (income earning dance teachers) from belonging to the club. Maybe they have changed that policy. You'll have to ask people in Michigan and Boston how well their clubs work for the greater community. On Jan 15, 2008, at 8:06 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am sort of playing around with the idea of setting up a membership organization - but even if I do something like that, it's way, way far off - but I'd love to hear from anyone who has done itbasically I imagine folks pay some amount per year as members which entitles them to discounted workshops, free admission to milongas, etc. If you are a member of something like
Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance
On Jan 3, 2008, at 10:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom Stermitz had a nice post on TANGO-L about this sometime in 2006 or 2007. The crux of the matter seems to be selling the possibility of being the master of a situation: rather than being swept off their feet by passion, they are the ones doing the sweeping. Christopher Yes, the important thing for the guys is that they feel successful. Like they have achieved mastery of something, and have the knowledge and confidence to lead a beautiful woman into a dance. In tango nothing happens without the guy coming up with an idea and then executing. This is the crux of the performance anxiety problem. And in tango you are expecting him to succeed or fail in front of a woman, which loads it even more. You want to retain men? Leave them at the end of each class confident, with the new ideas well-integrated with things they already know. For a beginner, that might just be walking. The business strategy of teach something difficult so they will take privates, doesn't succeed with men. They'll just quit. Maybe they are cheap; But really they feel unsuccessful and frustrated. Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower ...keys Clasico vs. Nuevo
On Dec 17, 2007, at 12:51 PM, Tango For Her wrote: To difuse this a bit ... How do you make money in tango? Give what people want! The trick to filling your classroom AND keep them coming is to keep the attention of the intermediate and advanced leaders. Any teacher knows that! Intermediate dancers want to learn tricks and patterns. (This is only my observation. This is a genaralization. This is not meant to offend anyone!) So, if you are a visiting teacher, you had better be known for teaching cool moves! How do you make money in tango? Get students to take lot of privates. How do you get them to take privates? Teach really complicated figures that they can't learn in class. How do you get lots of privates? Focus on the women, as they are more willing to take privates. How do you get big classes? Follow the ballroom studio strategy, and create a vertical community: Classes, privates, dances under one roof. How do you keep them from going elsewhere? Teach them things that only work within your own circe. I prefer a different value: How do you build community? (1) Teach material that is accessible to a wide audience, not just the young or athletic. (2) Make sure the guys leave successful from each group class. (3) Work to build the wider community, not just your own milonga. (4) Do field trips with your students to the community milongas. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality
Musicality is essential, yet most of us learn it in a random, intuitive process over time. It works, but it shouldn't be left to chance. I am one who feels that musicality can be taught if the teacher strategizes the learning sequence. I would argue that EVERY class in tango should teach musicality, as music is so fundamental. In particular, the initial learning must be founded on music. This means BEAT (which is sort of obvious), but also feeling the PHRASES, and a sense of the flow. I learned tango with a rhythmic foundation, but now find myself more attracted to a more lyrical understanding. I have an affinity for that approach, as it starts relatively directed and moves toward experiential. I feel that complex layers fit on top of simpler or layers. So, let's organize the learning: start simple, then move complex. Musicality classes for an experienced dancer can be profound, interesting or useless, but that has more to do with the student than the teacher. If you are experienced it is always interesting to pick up on ideas from someone who followed a different path. If you think you already know everything, well, that is a definition of an intermediate. I've been on this journey for 12 years, and I find the classes on music and fundamentals FAR more interesting than a lesson on steps. On Dec 5, 2007, at 9:12 PM, Jay Rabe wrote: Random comments about recent thread on musicality: Like many, I have taken several musicality classes. I have not found them as totally worthless as some have posted. I agree an individual's amount of musicality in dancing is limited by the musicality they hear, which is like an innate skill, which is difficult/impossible to teach. But that being said, here's what worked for me and for other students I've talked to: At the most basic level, learning/hearing that musical phrases in tango are usually 8 or 16 beats, and putting a pause at the end of a phrase, or placing the last step of a pattern (eg a 3-step molinete) on the very last note/beat of the phrase, or starting a new phrase (esp if it comes on powerfully) at the very beginning of a phrase, were all worthwhile techniques that can be taught. ... But I completely agree that the clapping to the beat thing doesn't seem to do much at all. J TangoMoments.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
I have a simple description. Admittedly, you can find more complicated explanations: Musicality is when Movement Energy Corresponds to Musical Energy. Energy is still a fuzzy, undefined concept, but it includes various aspects of movement such as speed, force, size, suspension, acceleration, lift, grounded-ness. So musicality is about adjusting your physical movements to go with the music in a pleasing (again undefined) manner. To teach it, you have to provide examples of musicality in the exercises. The goal is to offer enough varied examples, that people can ultimately learn it how it feels in the kinesthetic sense. So, for example, I teach brand new beginners to walk with musicality by matching their short elements to the musical phrase. Tango is built on four plus four equals eight walking beats. Initiate movement (compression and accelerate or surge) on the one or five, and come together stationary on the four or eight (suspend, momentum = zero). I'm very deterministic, and really insist on beginning at one and ending at four. Wooden? Yes at first, but at least they are wooden WITH the music instead of walking woodenly and aimlessly around the room. The value here is that when movement energy corresponds to musical energy for these 4+4=8 steps, then they FEEL right, the leaders are more confident, the followers learn about their musicality (i.e. how they respond through the connection), and that all adds up to bringing people closer to kinesthetic awareness (i.e. achieving musicality through intuitive learning). On Nov 30, 2007, at 3:24 PM, Igor Polk wrote: Following Steve's thoughts, I have deepen more into that, and to my surprise have found that I can not really define what people understand under the term Musicality. I can not say what it is. I know that dancing supposed to be with music. ( And I believe I myself dance musically too ) But on a logical side, or rather sociological side I am confused. If it is so common, can one define what musicality is? What most people understand under musicality? So if one say: This is a musicality lesson what people expect? Those who come and those who do not? Another question is how to develop it. Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers
On Oct 15, 2007, at 9:29 AM, Astrid wrote: I have heard German men say that portenas are really strict about who they dance with and you hardly get a chance with them, unless you are really good, and they will brusquely turn you down if you have the nerve to ask them directly. ... maybe people could share more stories on this horror subject? ; ) It's quite simple, actually figure out how to dance, and you will get dances. The foreigner guys who can't get dances simply don't know how to dance the way the Argentine women want. If you show up to an afternoon milonga able to dance the way they do, then they accept you as a tango dancer. You get the first few dances, and the whispers go around the tables, Ooh, check out the new guy/girl, and they are looking right at you for a dance. You sometimes get the surprise: You don't dance like a foreigner, which maybe says something about all the bad foreigners out there. One correction. The issue isn't about being really good. Merely good is sufficient if you know how to dance appropriate to the particular Buenos Aires milonga. Overwhelmingly, this means milonguero or close salon, but some people claim there are a couple milongas or practicas where other styles are appropriate. Decent does NOT mean you have to know lots of giros and steps. Decent means: - Good embrace, confident movements, boldness (male and femaie) - Ability to navigate and deal with crowded conditions - Know the music, know the music, know the music Notice that steps, technique and posture aren't on the list. Frankly, a lot of Argentines are lacking in technique. But, they absolutely know the music and the embrace. Tango is about energy, presence, feel, musicality, not about style or steps. Steps are just the things you do while doing tango. I have made several trips in Buenos Aires over 12 years. I experienced a lot of failure the first time I went down. I returned determined to figure out how to do it right, and on subsequent trips I have had a lot of success. It does take a few days for people to start recognizing you. There are usually more women at a milonga in Buenos Aires, so the men can choose who they want, for good or shallow reasons. Some of the guys are really, really shallow. One reason they prey on the foreigners is the local women have stopped dancing with them. Another reason is that they are just hustling: lessons, dates, money. Almost all the Argentines who walk up to the table are in these categories, hustlers, creeps or can't dance. I think this is more of a problem in the milongas attended by lots of foreigners. Here's a true example of rude behavior. He gives her a really good first couple of dances. The next dance he causes her to stumble, and at the end of the set offers his business card for tango lessons to help her with her problems. Tom Stermitz Denver San Diego Tango Festivals http://LaEternaMilonga.com http://Tango.org ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
the answer. But what is the question? CONFIDENCE, not stuff. These guys end up long-term intermediates randomly zig-zagging around the middle of the floor. I've tried to teach some of the musicality, and they just don't get it because their brain is so full of stuff, that they can't comprehend the essence. Look at milongas or practicas in communities dominated by fancy tango (nuevo, fantasy, neo, non). You have lots of women, and not so many men. Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
I understand there is a problem, but disagree that it has to be a problem. Argentine Tango seems so improvisational and flexible that you can't find the structure. Specifically, the phrasing structure of Tango is 4 +4=8. This is easy count and easy to match with simple steps. But when you have too many steps, you lose the musicality. That is why it is so hard to teach musicality to intermediate and advanced dancers. The cool thing is: IT IS VERY EASY TO TEACH MUSICALITY TO BEGINNERS. On Oct 2, 2007, at 12:40 PM, Endzone 102 wrote: On 10/2/07, Tom Stermitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Teaching Musicality. So, when I teach I am highly focused on showing the men where the beat is and where the musical phrasing is. Change the music, repeat and rinse. It takes repetition and time, as this is a strange foreign genre to most. Basically, if they don't know the music, then they have to be shown exactly where it is, and how to make their movements relate to it. Musicality is when your energy matches the musical energy, the surge at the beginning of the phrase, the suspension at the end, the flow and wave of the waltz, the staccatto of D'Arienzo, the walk of Di Sarli, the drama of Pugliese. This tends to be the thing I find most guys around here struggle with. In ballroom dances, there's a known timing that you can find in the music. With Argentine Tango, there isn't. AT is more about feeling the music. That's a difficult concept to get across sometimes, especially when you're also trying to teach them how tango works. This gets more problematic when the music branches out away from traditional tango music. -Greg G ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
Thanks for recognizing the point I wanted to make. Let's start with confidence, and then masculine might mean something additional. That additional could be very interesting, but I think it is more subtle, complicated and cultural. Confidence as a foundation allows us to go on to other aspects of masculinity. Also, Femininity isn't about sugar and spice and pinkness. It is more of a diva-like quality. But, that is a different topic maybe. On Oct 2, 2007, at 1:07 PM, Caroline Polack wrote: So, essentially, weakness in leading is not masculine. Lack of confidence is not masculine. Worse of all are leaders who can't stop apologizing. Please just cut that out. A simple squeeze or stroke is more than apology enough. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
On Sep 22, 2007, at 4:15 PM, Krasimir Stoyanov wrote: I agree with Igor, but what is resistance? Should the follower forcefully resist? Or it is just the inertial resistance, according to the physics? Of course, connection can mean anything from light to heavy. This could be a light to heavy force, or light to heavy inertia, or light to heavy responsiveness, light or heavy groundedness. I personally agree with Igor that super-light is less helpful for connection, and I prefer that there be an actual, sometimes substantial sense of engaging (toning up?) between the partners. I have two points to make about this: (1) The woman (man also), has three important places of engagement: with the floor, with her partner, and within herself. Using these leverage points allows her to create a positive connection that can be used to communicate movement and other things. This connection can be modified in many ways. All the great followers I know use many or all of these possibilities: - by resisting movement or self-powering, - by allowing stationary or moving momentum to slow the changes of tempo - by leaning or being more vertical, - by pushing into the floor or pushing off, - by allowing a slower response or a more sprightly response. - by slowing or speeding up the speed of the moving leg - by resisting or releasing early or late in the movement - by resisting or releasing early or late in the music - by leaving a step or arriving to a step early or late with respect to the music or lead. (2) The manner in which the woman engages with her partner IS THE FIRST AND MOST INTERESTING decoration in tango. It is one of the most significant ways for the woman to express musicality. Decorating the connection is far more interesting than the visible decorations we usually think about. Tom Stermitz Denver San Diego Tango Festivals http://www.tango.org ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Should automatic crossing, or automatic anything, be discouraged?
People keep talking at cross-purposes, but Laurie's coments below point out that things are different for different people, different situations, different levels and different styles. What is necessary for a beginner is insufficient for an intermediate, and doesn't makes sense for an advanced. Most teachers tend to analyze things teach at THEIR level rather than teaching in layers appropriate for the different levels. And, judging from this list, tango teachers are an analytical, over-educated, over- verbal bunchh RULE-LEAD vs AXIS-LEAD CROSS The RULE CROSS (aka after two steps outside...) functions for beginners, but I find it teaches them to count, and that is harder to learn than feeling for what signals the cross. For more experienced people the RULE applies in the sense that it is such a common move, she just comes to expect the cross whenever he goes outside. Therefore, the not-cross becomes a critical lead. AXIS: A far better instruction for beginners is to teach lead for the cross using a diagonal shift of the axis, which enables the in-line cross and very subtle right-side crosses as well as, leading the not- cross. A new beginner has the precision to lead and not lead crosses with great subtlety. SPIRAL: I'm very much against using the mans' spiral to lead the cross as I find this teaches very gross (if not grotesque) movements with the men over leading and the ladies losing their ability to follow the axis. For me, the spiral is how the man FOLLOWS the cross, not leads it. This is a very luscious connection that feels very connected. However it is an adv-beginner or intermediate skill. Comparing the RULE CROSS with the FOLLOW HIS AXIS CROSS, I find that it takes 30 or 40 minutes for new beginners to learn the RULE- LEAD, and five minutes to learn the AXIS-LEAD. That is 30 minutes lost where they could be learning rhythm or music or lead-follow. Also, the AXIS-LEAD is experiential and intuitive, whereas the RULE- LEAD is mental and analytical. I do everything possible to keep people moving, in their physical bodies, and not thinking too much. I'm in the school of Lead the cross; Lead the not-cross. This has the advantage that the ladies are taught to wait on the cusp of the decision, so the lead-follow can be more subtle. As followers get better, NUEVO ANALYSIS Gustavo and the others of the nuevo school are very analytical teachers, which is great fun for the teachers in this forum. But, to use the concept of the giro to explain the cross is useless for a beginner. They can hardly stand up, let alone learn ochos, and the giro has to come after ochos. In any case, depending on the situation, the giro is frequently distorted, (the cross is sort of a front ocho, theoretically) so only the curious really care whether the cross is part of the giro, a structured pattern, or an improvised walk. Yeah, it explains a few things, but who cares, really beyond Tango-L arguers? On Aug 26, 2007, at 2:09 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...In my view (and I'm from the UK not the USA), the lady should never cross automatically. In fact she should never do anything automatically (unless she has been given the 'over to you signal', or has indicated that she wishes to do firuletes or something else of her choice). ... On every step, the lady will have no idea what is going to come next. She has to wait for a lead. That wait is commonly only a fraction of a second, but it is a wait. ...Of course, with a a lady who walks to the beat (unless otherwise led) and does not cross until it is indicated, there are many more conversational and communicative possibilities. I’d happily discuss on another occasion the many possibilities that getting into and out of the cross present, but I have rabbited on long enough for one posting. Laurie (Laurence) 24 August 2007 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
