Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-29 Thread Luca
Thomas Fernandez:

 Luca wrote:
 L We're talking of a typing
 L syndrome. TB's MicroEd (any mode) requires a heavy modification of deeply
 L rooted and continuously practised typing habits. I could agree with you if
 L TB's way were common among all the other programs, or if I could use TB as 
 my
 L sole and only editor, but it isn't.
 
 Well, I for one like the way MicroEd behaves. However, I understand
 that you want an editor that behaves like Word, is that correct? 

Yes. In my specific case: Agent and Dialog or, if we're talking about word
processing, Open Office, as well as any editor of common use, excluding a
programmer's one, like MicroEd seems more to be.

Dialog in particular seems pretty close to perfection, for email and news
messages editing: it's capable to perform all the email related tasks that
MicroEd particularly does as well, without the alt+l/double return syndrome.

 However, there was a wish once that one should be able to use any
 external editor of choice, and some would want to use ViM. I don't
 know what became of that wish.

Ah yes, the external editor solution, but that way you loose any interaction
between the editor and the mail client. And what about specific email related
functions, e.g. quotes handling?

Definetly not a solution, IMO. Seems to me more like a programmer's
virtuosity, only an end to itself.

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Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-26 Thread Luca
Alexander S. Kunz:

 on 25-Dez-2005 at 18:33 you (Luca) wrote:
 
  Since you insist
 
 No, I do not insist. I tried to help by providing a workaround for the
 problem you have.

If I say I want to be able to hit return once and you say then hit it
twice, that's not what I'd call a workaround. 

Obviously, it's not only a one-key difference. We're talking of a typing
syndrome. TB's MicroEd (any mode) requires a heavy modification of deeply
rooted and continuously practised typing habits. I could agree with you if
TB's way were common among all the other programs, or if I could use TB as my
sole and only editor, but it isn't.

I can't stop using other programs and editors, and I can't be hunted for the
rest of my life by the alt-l/double return syndrome at every line I write,
both here and there, in a way and its opposit.

 I think we have a little bit of a misunderstanding here. I don't *want*
 anything. 
...
 All I'm saying is that *if* the WinEd continues to behave like it does
 (currently), format-flowed should be implemented correctly.

So, you do want something, at least something to be done just in case.
And that something, the way you're proposing it, would prevent other's
people needings to be fulfilled, since TB is very unlinkely going to get
a fourth editor. 

  Usually, paragraphs are separated with one return and, possibly,
  an indent.
 
 I assume we're still talking about email :-)

And I assume I'm talking with people who doesn't write only email and
only with TB. The keyword here is typing habits, as I wrote above.

See, you're minimizing the most repelling obstacle that people find on their
way starting to use TB coming from other programs. It's not a matter of
getting used to a new program. It comes to a TB or not TB, that's the
question. 

 Only a correct implementation of format-flowed (as in any word processor)

I don't want format flowed because in email - unlike in any word processor
format - you can't specify line lenght as a paragraph attribute. We'll ever
need hard returns at the end of each line to obtain wysiwyg in email.

-- 
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Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-26 Thread Alexander S. Kunz
Hello Luca,

please, go elsewhere and stop bothering me with your endless rants. You
don't want to understand, do you?

-- 
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Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-26 Thread Thomas Fernandez
Hello Luca,

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:40:28 +0100 GMT (26/12/2005, 17:40 +0700 GMT),
Luca wrote:

L Obviously, it's not only a one-key difference. We're talking of a typing
L syndrome. TB's MicroEd (any mode) requires a heavy modification of deeply
L rooted and continuously practised typing habits. I could agree with you if
L TB's way were common among all the other programs, or if I could use TB as my
L sole and only editor, but it isn't.

Well, I for one like the way MicroEd behaves. However, I understand
that you want an editor that behaves like Word, is that correct? I
would think that the Windows Editor does that, but apparently not.
Handing in a wish to the wishlist is the way to go.

L I can't stop using other programs and editors, and I can't be hunted for the
L rest of my life by the alt-l/double return syndrome at every line I write,
L both here and there, in a way and its opposit.

That's correct. There has been a request to make a stand-alone version
of MicroEd for those who want to use it outside of TB as well.

L So, you do want something, at least something to be done just in case.
L And that something, the way you're proposing it, would prevent other's
L people needings to be fulfilled, since TB is very unlinkely going to get
L a fourth editor. 

You could be right, I also don't think there will be a fourth editor.
However, there was a wish once that one should be able to use any
external editor of choice, and some would want to use ViM. I don't
know what became of that wish.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

FLATULANCE: Emergency vehicle that picks you up when you've been run
over by a steam roller
http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/

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Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-25 Thread Luca
Alexander S. Kunz:

 IMHO, the settings for the Windows editor should be separated from Microed.
 
 If one chooses to hard-wrap messages at column 72 or whatever, TB should do
 so before sending to supply the same WYSIWYG principle of Microed.
 
 But if one chooses to use the flowed format (aka the way the Windows
 editor is working now), it should a) add the flowed headers to the
 outgoing message and b) not cause the false impression of wrapping by
 formatting the text while typing (but using the fill window width just as
 well).

No. I don't want format flowed. I want at least one typing mode capable to
automatically reformat paragraphs separated by *one* hit of my return key when
I'm editing the message, *and* I want to send my messages with hard returns at
the end of each line. 

A proper solution, IMO, would be like the one proposed by Bill McQuillan in
the bug report page that you indicated.

If you don't want to call such an editor a wysiwyg one anymore, so be it. For
me, it is: what I /see/ is exactly what I'll get when I send the message. Is
what I /code/ that's different, and only while I'm typing, but who cares? TB
already has another what-you-/code/-is-what-you-get editor, so let's people
out here get at least one Agent-like editor, among the three (!) that TB
already has.

This thing is a must for a mail client, a primary and elemetary feature. There
are two reasons why I didn't give up long time ago with TB: (1) Ritlabs
introduced the Windows-like editor and I still hope they'll make it work the
way I hope, (2) I desperately need templates, macros and automations. If I
didn't need (2) I would have uninstalled The Bat and forgotten Ritlabs the
split moment I realized the way TB forces me to type.

-- 
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Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-25 Thread Alexander S. Kunz
Hello Luca  everyone else,

on 25-Dez-2005 at 11:46 you (Luca) wrote:

 No. I don't want format flowed. I want at least one typing mode capable to
 automatically reformat paragraphs separated by *one* hit of my return key when
 I'm editing the message, *and* I want to send my messages with hard returns at
 the end of each line. 

*shrug* Then use MicroEd and turn on auto-formatting.

-- 
Best regards,
 Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981)

Please, Lord, let me prove that winning the lottery won't spoil me.



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Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-25 Thread Luca
Alexander S. Kunz:

 on 25-Dez-2005 at 11:46 you (Luca) wrote:
 
  No. I don't want format flowed. I want at least one typing mode capable to
  automatically reformat paragraphs separated by *one* hit of my return key 
  when
  I'm editing the message, *and* I want to send my messages with hard returns 
  at
  the end of each line. 
 
 *shrug* Then use MicroEd and turn on auto-formatting.

Oh, please ... MicroEd can't do as above (and you know it :-)

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Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-25 Thread Alexander S. Kunz
Hello Luca  everyone else,

on 25-Dez-2005 at 11:53 you (Luca) wrote:

 No. I don't want format flowed. I want at least one typing mode capable
 to automatically reformat paragraphs separated by *one* hit of my
 return key when I'm editing the message, *and* I want to send my
 messages with hard returns at the end of each line.

 *shrug* Then use MicroEd and turn on auto-formatting.

 Oh, please ... MicroEd can't do as above (and you know it :-)

You can turn auto-formatting in MicroEd on  off easily with CTRL+SHIFT+F
and have almost what you need. It won't spare you from hitting return twice
when you want to create a real paragraph, however. Because *paragraphs* are
separated with an empty line usually. :-)

There's always a certain point where automatisms fail. Microsoft Word is
driving me insane frequently because of that.

-- 
Best regards,
 Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981)

Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea - massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of
mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it. -- Gene
Spafford, 1992



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Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-25 Thread Curtis
On 23/12/2005 at 2:04:01 PM [GMT -0500], Alexander S. Kunz wrote:

 I'm not sure but from my POV it is correct that there are no hard
 linebreaks in these messages. However, TB doesn't add the correct
 Content-Type header for this type of messages (from which the recipients
 MUA can determine that it should wrap the lines accordingly).

 Content-Type: text/plain;
 charset=whatever;
 format=flowed;
 delsp=yes

As to that RFC, I don't see the logic in introducing it when clients
aren't ready for it. I've yet to come across a supporting client, whose
viewer works well with it. With ThunderBird and Mulberry that both
support it, all that format flowed option does is convert what's nicely
flowed text to 72 characters to streams of text that window wrap. So
yes, it unravels the text for the recipient to wrap at their own length,
but then, there's no mechanism for the user to wrap except the window
margin which isn't always useful. This is why most text editors/viewers
will offer a line wrapping mode for viewing at a specific character
limit.

-- 
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Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-25 Thread Alexander S. Kunz
Hello Curtis  everyone else,

on 25-Dez-2005 at 13:23 you (Curtis) wrote:

 Content-Type: text/plain;
 charset=whatever;
 format=flowed;
 delsp=yes

 As to that RFC, I don't see the logic in introducing it when clients
 aren't ready for it.

Then the whole RFC would be questionable. :-) A lot of clients make
terrible mistakes or don't follow the RFCs very much.

Its about time that the flowed format becomes reality IMHO, and if TB is
one of the few clients that supports it propperly, it would be nice.

 I've yet to come across a supporting client, whose viewer works well with
 it.

Opera's M2 does support it quite well (IMHO).

 there's no mechanism for the user to wrap except the window margin which
 isn't always useful. This is why most text editors/viewers will offer a
 line wrapping mode for viewing at a specific character limit.

Yes, the viewer should support wrapping at a user specified column of
course, not only at the window border.

-- 
Best regards,
 Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981)

Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time - I think
I've forgotten this before. -- Stephen Wright



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Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-25 Thread Curtis
On 25/12/2005 at 10:49:53 AM [GMT -0500], Alexander S. Kunz wrote:

 Its about time that the flowed format becomes reality IMHO, and if TB is
 one of the few clients that supports it propperly, it would be nice.

It's an excellent concept that would make all happy, if the clients
supported it well across the board.

 I've yet to come across a supporting client, whose viewer works well
 with it.

 Opera's M2 does support it quite well (IMHO).

Never really used that one. :)

 there's no mechanism for the user to wrap except the window margin which
 isn't always useful. This is why most text editors/viewers will offer a
 line wrapping mode for viewing at a specific character limit.

 Yes, the viewer should support wrapping at a user specified column of
 course, not only at the window border.

This is imperative to the format=flowed system working well.

-- 
  -= Curtis =-
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Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-25 Thread Luca
Alexander S. Kunz:

 on 25-Dez-2005 at 11:53 you (Luca) wrote:
  No. I don't want format flowed. I want at least one typing mode capable
  to automatically reformat paragraphs separated by *one* hit of my
  return key when I'm editing the message, *and* I want to send my
  messages with hard returns at the end of each line.

 You can turn auto-formatting in MicroEd on  off easily with CTRL+SHIFT+F
 and have almost what you need. It won't spare you from hitting return twice
 when you want to create a real paragraph, however. 

Since you insist, let's switch position, for a moment. You said:

|If one chooses to hard-wrap messages at column 72 or whatever, TB should do
|so before sending to supply the same WYSIWYG principle of Microed.
|
|But if one chooses to use the flowed format (aka the way the Windows
|editor is working now), it should a) add the flowed headers to the
|outgoing message and b) not cause the false impression of wrapping by
|formatting the text while typing (but using the fill window width just as
|well).

So you want the Windows-like editor to be able (1) to send format-flowed
messages or (2) to send hard-wrapped lines, other possible modes being
excluded. Well, why don't you leave the Windows-like editor alone for other
people's needings and do what you like using MicroEd? You can easily obtain
(1) simply by setting text wrapping at a very high value (maximum is 32
thousand characters, it should be enough) and inserting format-flowed headers.
See? There is no need to cripple down the Winlike editor to correctly obtain
format-flowed. Oh, yes, reading your one-line paragraphs in your editor window
would require a little effort with your scroll bar, but ... well, there's
always a certain point where automatisms fail, don't you agree?

 Because *paragraphs* are separated with an empty line usually. :-)

Usually, paragraphs are separated with one return and, possibly, an indent.
You can *choose* to insert empty lines in email to improve readability, but
you should never be forced to use them to make a not-smart-enough editor
capable to perform autoformatting tasks.

-- 
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Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-25 Thread Alexander S. Kunz
Hello Luca  everyone else,

on 25-Dez-2005 at 18:33 you (Luca) wrote:

 Since you insist

No, I do not insist. I tried to help by providing a workaround for the
problem you have.

 So you want the Windows-like editor

[...]

I think we have a little bit of a misunderstanding here. I don't *want*
anything. I'm happy with MicroEd the way it is. All I'm saying is that *if*
the WinEd continues to behave like it does (currently), format-flowed
should be implemented correctly. And I only say that *because* the way
WinEd behaves now is closer to it than MicroEd, thats all. I just tried to
explain whats going on behind the scenes. And WinEd is simply much more
wordprocessor like than MicroEd is.

You can formulate your own wishes for an editor the way you would like to
have it into a wish on the Ritlabs bug tracker page.


 Because *paragraphs* are separated with an empty line usually. :-)

 Usually, paragraphs are separated with one return and, possibly, an
 indent.

In some regions of the world, that may be true. I don't know. I assume
we're still talking about email :-) and for emails, an empty line is used
as the established standard (its a bit of a historical thing from the
days of the crude old textbased 80x25 terminals). Because email editors and
word processors were really two very different worlds in the past.

Only a correct implementation of format-flowed (as in any word processor)
will allow true paragraph formatting with user-definable spacing before
and/or after paragraphs for email like in a word processor.

And just to make it clear: I really don't mind which of TBs editors could
possibly maybe :-) create correct output. I'm just pro format-flowed.


-- 
Best regards,
 Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981)

Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil?
You're crazy! -- Drillers who Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his
project to drill for oil in 1859.



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Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-24 Thread Tom Plunket
Luca wrote:

 The Windows editor, like most other editors for Windows, virtual
 wraps as you edit, using the specified character limit in the
 options.

 That means that TB's Windows-like editor is useless, plain and
 simple. If there is no way to send messages with correct line
 wrapping, one can't use it, and I can't see any point in putting it
 in.

One can use it, and it's interesting (to me) to see how these sorts of
basic functionality issues still bug people now, six years after I
first started using TB! ?!? Wow.  Ahh the memories of 1.39 and chatter
of integrating a Usenet client...  ;)

Myself, I still hate the way the editor works in many common cases but
chalk it up to, hey at least it sends what it shows, unlike Outlook
which happily (and often incorrectly) reformats your message before
sending it.  IMHO Agent had a really nice text editor, unfortunately
they enhance the Usenet functionality and somehow utterly fail to put
the same features into the email side.  The biggest negative to
Agent's editor, which is solved by TB!'s untelligent way of handling
input, is simply that MicroEd doesn't wrap text if you don't add text
beyond end-of-line.  So I can get long lines easily, say if I want to
post source code that has 80-character lines.

sigh  The more things change...

-tom!

-- 



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Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-24 Thread Luca
Alexander S. Kunz:

 on 23-Dez-2005 at 12:53 you (Luca) wrote:
  But if I write a message using the Windows-like editor, lines wrappings get
  lost as soon as I save the message. Then, recipients get a message with 
  lines
  as long as the whole paragraph.
 
 I'm not sure but from my POV it is correct that there are no hard
 linebreaks in these messages. 

The Windows-like editor could come in handy when users don't need the advanced
features of MicroEd, so they can't see any reason why they should suffer the
pains of alt+(hel)l. But if it's correct to use MicroEd to write and send
plain text messages /with/ line wrappings, I can't see why it's correct to
send them /without/ line wrappings, only because I use another editor. They're
just plain text messages in both cases, if there's a reason to wrap lines at
72, it stands even when I change editor.

 However, TB doesn't add the correct
 Content-Type header for this type of messages (from which the recipients
 MUA can determine that it should wrap the lines accordingly).
 
 Content-Type: text/plain;
 charset=whatever;
 format=flowed;
 delsp=yes

This is interesting as a workaround. Adding these ones as custom fields in TB
should solve the problem, at least with certain recipients, right? But how
many mail readers can correctly handle them?

 Here's the bug report:
 https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=5016

Thanx, I was looking up in the wrong category (editor instead of mail
management).

By the way ... Merry Christmas to all, here :-)

-- 
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Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-24 Thread Alexander S. Kunz
Hello Luca  everyone else,

on 24-Dez-2005 at 20:12 you (Luca) wrote:

 I'm not sure but from my POV it is correct that there are no hard
 linebreaks in these messages.

 The Windows-like editor could come in handy when users don't need the
 advanced features of MicroEd, so they can't see any reason why they
 should suffer the pains of alt+(hel)l. But if it's correct to use MicroEd
 to write and send plain text messages /with/ line wrappings, I can't see
 why it's correct to send them /without/ line wrappings, only because I
 use another editor. They're just plain text messages in both cases, if
 there's a reason to wrap lines at 72, it stands even when I change
 editor.

Well, yes and no. TB clearly has a bug here, but messages should not be
hard-wrapped by default when using the Windows editor.

IMHO, the settings for the Windows editor should be separated from Microed.

If one chooses to hard-wrap messages at column 72 or whatever, TB should do
so before sending to supply the same WYSIWYG principle of Microed.

But if one chooses to use the flowed format (aka the way the Windows
editor is working now), it should a) add the flowed headers to the
outgoing message and b) not cause the false impression of wrapping by
formatting the text while typing (but using the fill window width just as
well).

-- 
Best regards,
 Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981)

Science is built of facts the way a house is built of bricks, but an
accumulation of facts is no more science than a pile of bricks is a
house. -- Henri Poincare



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Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-23 Thread Stuart Cuddy
Hello Luca,
Friday, December 23, 2005, 5:53:01 AM, you wrote:

L I can't understand how the Windows-like editor works, as far as line wrapping
L is concerned.

L In my viewer/editor|editor preferences dialog box, it says:

L  General (common for all editors)

L  Wrap text at 72 characters

L But if I write a message using the Windows-like editor, lines wrappings get
L lost as soon as I save the message. Then, recipients get a message with lines
L as long as the whole paragraph.

L Help file doesn't help. Can't find faqs or bug reports about this.

IF  you  find out let me know. I asked this question before and got no
replies.  It  seems to depend on the size of the window you are in and
totally ignores the 72 character limit.

-- 
 Stuartmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-23 Thread Curtis
On 23/12/2005 at 6:53:01 AM [GMT -0500], Luca wrote:

 I can't understand how the Windows-like editor works, as far as line
 wrapping is concerned.

TB!'s original editor was microEd. It does no virtual wrapping of text.
As MicroEd wraps text, it's hard wrapped. You'll see what I mean if
after typing a few lines of text with MicroEd, you copy paste it to
notepad and then toggle NotePads line wrapping on and off.

Because of MicroEd's ability, TB! never did have a wrap on send feature.
The Windows editor, like most other editors for Windows, virtual wraps
as you edit, using the specified character limit in the options. If you
copy a few lines of text you've typed in the Windows editor and paste it
in NotePad, you'll note that the text isn't *really* wrapped. So, on
sending, the text is sent formatted as is, i.e., with no wrapping.

-- 
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Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-23 Thread Luca
Curtis:

 The Windows editor, like most other editors for Windows, virtual wraps
 as you edit, using the specified character limit in the options. If you
 copy a few lines of text you've typed in the Windows editor and paste it
 in NotePad, you'll note that the text isn't *really* wrapped. So, on
 sending, the text is sent formatted as is, i.e., with no wrapping.

That means that TB's Windows-like editor is useless, plain and simple. If
there is no way to send messages with correct line wrapping, one can't use it,
and I can't see any point in putting it in.

I myself got used to MicroEd, with time, but a friend of mine, coming from
Outlook, of course he can't bear alt+l, nor the auto-format feature the way it
works in MicroEd. He *needs* a Windows-like text editor, and I myself would
like a lot to get rid of alt+l.

If a way to put hard returns in the right place before sending can't be found,
with the Windows-like editor, then I'd say that TB has three editors but none
of them is completely usable.

-- 
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Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-23 Thread Curtis
On 23/12/2005 at 12:36:18 PM [GMT -0500], Luca wrote:

 That means that TB's Windows-like editor is useless, plain and simple. If
 there is no way to send messages with correct line wrapping, one can't use it,
 and I can't see any point in putting it in.

Depends on perspective I guess. Though my sentiments are as yours, there
are those who believe sent lines should not be wrapped. In this way, the
recipient can view the lines whichever way he wishes. In fact, there's a
new RFC that tries to address this issue of line wrapping that works for
all, i.e., sender and recipient.

 I myself got used to MicroEd, with time, but a friend of mine, coming from
 Outlook, of course he can't bear alt+l, nor the auto-format feature the way it
 works in MicroEd. He *needs* a Windows-like text editor, and I myself would
 like a lot to get rid of alt+l.

Unlike the Windows editor that handles like 'standard' Windows editors,
it doesn't really work. However, MicroEd *works*, but has an unfamiliar
handle to it. What made me grow accustomed to MicroEds quirky handling
was the fact it works extremely well for e-mail formatting. You can
trust that what you see in front of you is what the recipient will get.

 If a way to put hard returns in the right place before sending can't
 be found, with the Windows-like editor, then I'd say that TB has three
 editors but none of them is completely usable.

The only way to do that is manually, sort of like in the old days of
mechanical type writers. You don't have a 'ching' sound to give you the
cue, but you could use set the Window width to the desired line length.
:)

-- 
  -= Curtis =-
The Bat!™ v3.64.01 Christmas Edition / http://specs.aimlink.name
PGPKey: http://rsakey.aimlink.name
...I have enough trouble single-tasking!



Current version is 3.62.14 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html


Re: Line wrapping in plain text (Windows) editor

2005-12-23 Thread Alexander S. Kunz
Hello Luca  everyone else,

on 23-Dez-2005 at 12:53 you (Luca) wrote:

 But if I write a message using the Windows-like editor, lines wrappings get
 lost as soon as I save the message. Then, recipients get a message with lines
 as long as the whole paragraph.

I'm not sure but from my POV it is correct that there are no hard
linebreaks in these messages. However, TB doesn't add the correct
Content-Type header for this type of messages (from which the recipients
MUA can determine that it should wrap the lines accordingly).

Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=whatever;
format=flowed;
delsp=yes

 Help file doesn't help. Can't find faqs or bug reports about this.

Here's the bug report:
https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=5016

Please add a supporting note to it.


-- 
Best regards,
 Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981)

From whence then could arise the solitary and strange conceit, that
the almighty, who had millions of worlds equally dependant on his
protection, should quit the care of all the rest, because they say one
woman and one man had eaten an apple! -- Thomas Paine



Current version is 3.62.14 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html