Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
MAU wrote in mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: I fully agree with you and do the same. Messages in lists like this one can be viewed as threads, why quote then? Well, for example, I can't tell quite what you just fully agreed with. I purge my TBUDL folder when I leave it, and the antecedent of your post is gone; the threaded view makes no difference. I'm sure I did read the antecedent -- probably it was posted only yesterday, my time. But since then I have read a several hundred threads in groups and lists, and my wetware is not up to recalling each read post in each thread. If the height of the pane is full with quoted text (i.e. I have to scroll down to find the first line of the response) I usually just skip that message. Me too. Snipping everything unnecessary to provide context is good, and IMO encouraging that is the only good way to deal with the problem. That is even worse when the quoted text is preceded with several lines telling me what time it was in several parts of the world, repeating the Subject, etc. :) I agree. Two lines for the attribution seems a good rule-of-thumb to me, but opinions vary. I don't put in Hello MAU greetings in order to keep it short, but I don't mind them either. I think they help foster the friendly atmosphere here. -- Mike TB! v1.60q Windows XP 5.1.2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 2.11.00 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
Hello Allie, One has to chose a point of compromise. I agree and that is what I usually do. Or don't I? :) -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v2.10.03 Current version is 2.11.00 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
Hello Michael, I fully agree with you and do the same. Messages in lists like this one can be viewed as threads, why quote then? Well, for example, I can't tell quite what you just fully agreed with. Yes, no quoting at all is probably no good if not everybody is viewing threads. I purge my TBUDL folder when I leave it, and the antecedent of your post is gone; Then mid: links are of no use to you, correct? :) -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v2.10.03 Current version is 2.11.00 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
MAU wrote in mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: I purge my TBUDL folder when I leave it, and the antecedent of your post is gone; Then mid: links are of no use to you, correct? :) Sometimes they are useful to me, if I've gone a while without catching up and purging. But for the most part, they don't help me within the list. -- Mike TB! v1.60q Windows XP 5.1.2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 2.11.00 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
Wayne King, [WK] wrote: WK In the latter case, it very much annoys me to have to scroll WK down past the quoted text to read the response. This annoyance leads one to trim when not top posting, another vital rule for discussion lists, i.e., no overquoting. :) -- -=[ Allie ]=- (List Moderator and fellow end-user) PGPKeys: http://key.ac-martin.com Running The Bat! v2.11 RC/1 on WinXP Pro (SP1) pgphIECUJATL3.pgp Description: PGP signature Current version is 2.10.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
Allen wrote: Even if all that is irrelevant, there is some value in a strictly inforced 'my way or the highway' approach--if there were conditions on when top posting was and was not accepted, it would be near impossible to enforce any sort of quoting policy--since it would all, inherently, be judgement calls. There would be arguments, confusion, and a lot more inconvenience than the current system. Very well said. I agree completely. :) -- -=[ Allie ]=- (List Moderator and fellow end-user) PGPKeys: http://key.ac-martin.com Running ThunderBird v0.6 on XP Pro SP1 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature Current version is 2.10.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
Wayne King wrote in mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: In the latter case, it very much annoys me to have to scroll down past the quoted text to read the response. One especially annoying example was a message in this list that I just read. I had to scroll down below quoted text only to find a thank you for your help. I think something like this should always be top quoted. Top-posting something like that would annoy me just as much, as I would scroll down /expecting/ there to be more new content. Snipping is the only solution to this sort of problem, whether top- or bottom-posting is used. Does TB! have no way to suppress quoted text? I don't see it, but I'm bad at finding features I'm not already using, and I'm also using an old version of TB! Togglable quote suppression is a common feature of news clients, but I don't think it's so common in e-mail ones. -- Mike TB! v1.60q Windows XP 5.1.2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 2.10.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
Hallo Michael, On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 10:31:52 -0500GMT (1-6-04, 17:31 +0200, where I live), you wrote: MLC Does TB! have no way to suppress quoted text? I don't see it, but I'm MLC bad at finding features I'm not already using, and I'm also using an Not really, but I suppose you could alter the font used for quotes in such a way that they become invisible. Not something you can easily toggle on and off. -- Groetjes, Roelof Disclaimer: Any opinion stated in this message is not necessarily shared by my budgies or rabbits. Current version is 2.10.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
Hi Michael, on Tue, 1 Jun 2004 10:31:52 -0500GMT, you wrote: MLC Does TB! have no way to suppress quoted text? I don't see it, but I'm MLC bad at finding features I'm not already using, and I'm also using an MLC old version of TB! Delete the %QUOTES macro from your reply template. MLC Togglable quote suppression is a common feature of MLC news clients, but I don't think it's so common in e-mail ones. You could call it /semi-toggle/: create two Quick Templates for replies - one with and one without %QUOTES. Call the one you need by its handle and type ctrl+space. -- Cheers Peter | RandomSignature-Professional 3.2 - DEMO | !!!You are using an illegal key! Please buy a LEGAL copy!!! Current version is 2.10.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
MLC Does TB! have no way to suppress quoted text? Delete the %QUOTES macro from your reply template. I think he is after suppressing quoted text in posts received. I also very much dislike going through quoted messaging to get to the response. I usually read in real time, remember the original message, don't like it repeated when I am looking for the response. Elaine Current version is 2.10.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
Hello ETM, I fully agree with you and do the same. Messages in lists like this one can be viewed as threads, why quote then? I usually read messages in the preview pane. If the height of the pane is full with quoted text (i.e. I have to scroll down to find the first line of the response) I usually just skip that message. That is even worse when the quoted text is preceded with several lines telling me what time it was in several parts of the world, repeating the Subject, etc. :) -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v2.10.03 Current version is 2.10.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
I usually read messages in the preview pane. If the height of the pane is full with quoted text (i.e. I have to scroll down to find the first line of the response) I usually just skip that message. I also read in preview pane making top quoting very unpleasant and usually qualifying it for an unread throwaway. Elaine Current version is 2.10.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
Hello ETM, unread throwaway. Hmmm, unread throwaway. I like that term :) -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v2.10.03 Current version is 2.10.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
Miguel Urech, [MU] wrote: MU I fully agree with you and do the same. Messages in lists like MU this one can be viewed as threads, why quote then? Giving no information about the message you're replying to is unacceptable and assumes that all readers thread their messages. This actually annoys me more than top posting does. One has to chose a point of compromise. No excessive quoting and offer reasonable information to give the reader some point of reference other than the position of the message in a thread that the user may not have displayed depending on their client and depending on their preferences. This drawback is a big and clear one to see. It's far more easily dismissed as unacceptable than top posting is. -- -=[ Allie ]=- (List Moderator and fellow end-user) PGPKeys: http://key.ac-martin.com Running The Bat! v2.11 RC/1 on WinXP Pro (SP1) pgppL2WB6GRKo.pgp Description: PGP signature Current version is 2.10.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
Hello Allie, On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 20:28:28 -0500 GMT (02/06/2004, 08:28 +0700 GMT), Allie Martin wrote: MU I fully agree with you and do the same. Messages in lists like MU this one can be viewed as threads, why quote then? AM Giving no information about the message you're replying to is AM unacceptable and assumes that all readers thread their messages. This AM actually annoys me more than top posting does. Same here. Even with threaded view: There may be subthreads, so I have read a couple of other messages before I get to the one I'm reading. No quoting at all, I would have to scroll up and find the parent, and even if TB has this long-desired shortcut, it would be too cumbersome to do that. Hitting del instead comes naturally. -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. Vier Jahre nach dem Tod von Augut Haarmann (1913) wurde sein Sohn in Dresden geboren. * Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11 Beta/9 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM Current version is 2.10.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
ken green wrote: One thing that threw a wrench in the workings of my perception on this was the idea of a physical Inbox, and realizing that new messages at top more closely resembles a real-world Inbox. We do it that way since we can't really do any better when managing and organising physical objects which is what snail mail is about. Electronic data offers a lot more flexibility and ease with organizing without presenting practical difficulties. Take threading for instance. We do this with great ease with e-mail. Try this with your office mail .. quite a challenge just to physically do a batch which is done using TB! at the flick of a switch. With the flick of other switches we can change how we thread. Not practical with snail mail. Now try maintaining the threaded physical mail, something we do automatically with e-mail. Finally, retrieve a thread of physical mail correspondence. Not as easy as e-mail. Take a nested reply vs a top post. With snail mail, we often send replies with a copy of the original message attached at the back. Why? That's the most convenient way. A nested reply would be ridiculously tedious and not worth the effort. This isn't a problem electronically since we can easily insert text between segments of the original and easily specially mark the original to differentiate it from the reply text. In this way, context is better gleaned and followed. Why restrict ourselves by top posting since this is the format we use with snail mail, when really and truly, on most occasions, we do so out of convenience. IOW's, what I'm getting at is that e-mail offers advantages that physical mail does not. Why try to restrict e-mail and how we work with it, by working with it the same way in which we are forced to work with snail mail? Our list rules are based on this premise. All members currently don't, nor will all members ever agree with the rules these lists are bound by. One things for sure, is that the rules are based on a lot of experience with what seems to go well with the majority. Most also go well with the majority outside the scope of this discussion list. -- -=[ Allie ]=- (List Moderator and fellow end-user) PGPKeys: http://key.ac-martin.com Running ThunderBird v0.6 on XP Pro SP1 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature Current version is 2.10.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
Hi ken, On Mon, 31 May 2004, at 11:05:24 [GMT -0500] (which was 10:05 AM where I live) you wrote: kg I'm curious about the logic of the above point from Peter's tag kg line (which I agree with) and applying the same logic to message kg list view. On folders where I view threads (mainly lists), then I sort by ascending (older messages at top), because just like reading an e-mail, I read from top to bottom). My inbox on the other hand, is sorted descending (newer at top). -- Cheers, Leif Gregory List Moderator (and fellow registered end-user) PCWize Editor / ICQ 216395 / PGP Key ID 0x7CD4926F Web Site http://www.PCWize.com TB FAQ http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/FAQ.html Using The Bat! 2.11 Beta/9 under Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 4 on a P4 1.6Ghz OC'd to 2.32Ghz with 512MB. Tagline of the day: I get enough exercise just pushin' my luck. Current version is 2.10.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
Allie Martin wrote: We do it that way since we can't really do any better when managing and organising physical objects which is what snail mail is about. Electronic data offers a lot more flexibility and ease with organizing without presenting practical difficulties. To be clear, I wasn't arguing against the list rule of top-posting at all. I was asking whether staunch anti-top-posters always viewed their messages lists with new messages at the bottom. I only threw in the comment at the end about the physical Inbox because it was a different way of doing things - not as an argument *for* top-posting (or even top-viewing). Your explanation was good, though, and perhaps should be saved and made part of the mod for top-posting? Or at least part of the welcome message? -- Ken Green Using The Bat! v2.10.03 on Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 4 Current version is 2.10.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
Hello Ken, Monday, May 31, 2004, 6:05:24 PM, you wrote: A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? kg It would seem that if logical flow of conversation is a main kg argument for top-posting, a similar argument could be used for viewing kg a list of messages and threads. kg Thoughts? Suggestions? Ridicule? Did you ever have a look at the transmission protocols in the headers of email messages with this question in mind??? It is not exactly what you would call a logical flow... (-: It is a kind of recursive top-posting or however you might want to call it. -- Best regards, Cyrille mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [ the sig delimiter left TB correctly formatted! ] [ TB! 2.10.01, Windows ME 4.90 Build 3000, Pentium 233Mhz with 95MB ] Current version is 2.10.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
OT: Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
Hi Cyrille, On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, at 00:11:08 [GMT +0200] (which was 4:11 PM where I live) you wrote: C Did you ever have a look at the transmission protocols in the C headers of email messages with this question in mind??? It is not C exactly what you would call a logical flow... (-: It is a kind of C recursive top-posting or however you might want to call it. Moving to TBOT And can you imagine the enormous overhead a server would have if it had to parse each and every message to determine where to stick its hop information instead of just sticking it on top. Sometimes top posting is warranted (i.e. tech support situations between two people), at work where everyone wants to top post, but on these lists, it's not allowed. -- Cheers, Leif Gregory List Moderator (and fellow registered end-user) PCWize Editor / ICQ 216395 / PGP Key ID 0x7CD4926F Web Site http://www.PCWize.com TB FAQ http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/FAQ.html Using The Bat! 2.11 Beta/9 under Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 4 on a P4 1.6Ghz OC'd to 2.32Ghz with 512MB. Tagline of the day: A broken Window gets you 7 meg. of bad luck Current version is 2.10.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? kg I'm curious about the logic of the above point from Peter's tag line kg (which I agree with) and applying the same logic to message list view. kg Do the anti-top-posting crusaders (or even those that strongly believe kg against top-posting) also view their message list with new messages at kg the bottom? kg snip This is the first list I've been on that had such a rigid rule against top posting -- and I go back to pre-internet tech forums on Compuserve. It's not a big deal to me and I certainly don't want to fight about it. I just want to comment. I think it depends on what you're doing. If I'm responding to several specific points in a message I'd want to do as this list requires -- quote each point and respond underneath. On the other hand, if I'm responding to the general idea in a message, I'd normally top post. In this case I view the quoted text as there for reference in case the recipient has forgotten the flow of the discussion. If it weren't for the rules here, I would have top quoted this message. In the latter case, it very much annoys me to have to scroll down past the quoted text to read the response. One especially annoying example was a message in this list that I just read. I had to scroll down below quoted text only to find a thank you for your help. I think something like this should always be top quoted. As for flow of the conversation, you get that by following the thread. I don't see the need to repeat that flow at the top of each reply -- unless you're responding to very specific points. That's my 2 cents worth. (I also like new messages at the top of my mailboxes -- so I don't have to scroll to the bottom to find them.) -- Wayne King Current version is 2.10.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Top-Posting and message list (was Re: The Bat! Help File)
Hi Wayne, On Mon, 31 May 2004, at 21:54:21 [GMT -0600] (which was 9:54 PM where I live) you wrote: WK In the latter case, it very much annoys me to have to scroll down WK past the quoted text to read the response. One especially annoying WK example was a message in this list that I just read. I had to WK scroll down below quoted text only to find a thank you for your WK help. I think something like this should always be top quoted. And hence the list rule regarding over-quoting. The netiquette rules make a great deal of sense, but if people only use part of the equation, then they never see how much better it is. -- Cheers, Leif Gregory List Moderator (and fellow registered end-user) PCWize Editor / ICQ 216395 / PGP Key ID 0x7CD4926F Web Site http://www.PCWize.com TB FAQ http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/FAQ.html Using The Bat! 2.11 Beta/9 under Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 4 on a P4 1.6Ghz OC'd to 2.32Ghz with 512MB. Tagline of the day: Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat drinking beer all day. Current version is 2.10.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
