Re[2]: Model/view design for text editor
Hello Thomas, Sunday, December 29, 2002 you asked: I'm no expert on text editors, so I'd best ask. Can other editors: Change text from All Caps to All Lower Case or First Letter Caps with a 2 key keystroke combo? TF How do you do that? (Another feature I never knew of... ;-)) On my Latin American Spanish Keyboard, All Caps = crtl+? (second last key on right, top row), All Lower Case = ctrl+¿ (last key on right, top row) First Letter Caps = ctrl+] (last key on right, second row from bottom). See Marck's silverstone website for the equivalent English keyboard commands. -- Douglas Current version is 1.62 | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Model/view design for text editor
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Jonathan, JA *g* Unfortunately time ran away from me a bit, but I am currently JA working on a pure notepad like replacement that should do what TB!s JA editor does. I personally enjoy the way the editor works, and have JA spent long enough searching for one that works the same ;) I am also looking for a text editor that works like the TB! I would like the free style caret position with hard returns guaranteed. I am currently using Keynote and it is great but I really like the hard wrap functions and free style caret that TB! provides. Anyone know of a good text editor like that? I hope you guys don't mind the post as it is slightly off topic but since you're talking editor I figured you probably already know of one :) Thank you - -- Best regards, Victor B. Gonzalez [EMAIL PROTECTED] Using The Bat! v1.62 Christmas Edition Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Request My PGP Public Keys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] iQA/AwUBPg1otV3LB35+TCg0EQJv5ACfQ7+LzQr+Bs+24sIiCb17mxulSlgAn2u9 qcU/voVFTn0OyNSxeiT7Aqsw =X/1S -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current version is 1.62 | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Model/view design for text editor
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Jonathan, I've downloaded tuns of text editors yesterday and came across an interesting free MDI which lets you free style and with a plethora of options (though not visibly, it's there). Anyway its called syn 2.0 ; http://syn.sourceforge.net/ JA Interestingly enough, I'm using the components similar to this to JA build my editor, I'm just seriously hacking the source code a bit to JA make it a totally free caret editor (unless they already did that) JA as it was limited to selecting past End of Line where as a free JA caret would allow past End of File. Very cool, If you like I would help beta test it as I have no fear of betas in the least. I would like to see it :) Good luck with it :) BTW, You can e-mail me personally on this one but will you support XP themes? Curious... Thanks for your time, Jonathan ;) - -- Best regards, Victor B. Gonzalez [EMAIL PROTECTED] Using The Bat! v1.62 Christmas Edition Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Request My PGP Public Keys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] iQA/AwUBPg32fV3LB35+TCg0EQKCmACeOpR7RpVul4u/6MrKglhqdMIPdP4AoNBv 38qCWEWc0FqBft4cYLBZxkkJ =PYdX -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current version is 1.62 | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Model/view design for text editor
Saturday, December 28, Mark Evens wrote about Model/view design for text editor and said: ME ... Some unix wizards love emacs because they have memorized all ME the magic keystrokes required to edit without touching a mouse. ME Most of us are not like that. We want our editors to do ME low-level thinking for us. In that case, we will have to think in the way that our text editor (or email message composer) was designed. I found TB!'s design paradigm to be frustrating when I first started using it in 1999 w/ v 1.35. It was too different from what I was used to, above all the floating (or free) caret. This no longer bothers me. Any time I want the cursor at the end of the line, I just hit end, which will bring it either right or left, depending on where it is at present. This may be a bother to anyone not used to having to do that, but 1).- I'm used to it and 2).- It's consistent with the rest of TB!'s message editors' features. I'm no expert on text editors, so I'd best ask. Can other editors: Begin a text block anywhere, with automatic placement for additional lines? Change text from All Caps to All Lower Case or First Letter Caps with a 2 key keystroke combo? Eliminate or add columns? Use tabs with a built in memory in relation to the preceding line? Justify or reformat as easily? Complete the address as agilely? Make and use address books as easily? Use folder level templates that are code-able for supplying any of the header info that's desired? Move a text block right or left? Spell check in multiple languages? I sure wish my word processor had some of these features. ME There are good reasons why most editors behave differently from ME Bat. The reverse is also true: There are good reasons why TB! works the way it does. Not that it's perfect as is. I'd welcome support for the windows command ctrl+up or down, for jumping between paragraphs, for instance. I'd also like to be able to reformat multiple paragraphs at once. But given TB!'s stability, ability to download simultaneously from multiple accounts, the Mail Dispatcher, Selective Download, Virtual View windows (if you use the Ticker), virus protection, frequent upgrades at no cost (so far), the TB! User Groups etc., I'm satisfied - and not even thinking about looking for a different email client. ME I had to use Utilities Format Block Left at least ten times while ME editing this short note. I find that to be a nuisance. Others share ME this viewpoint So do I. What I don't understand is why you just don't use alt+l. ME and it is perfectly reasonable. We do not intend to give up on ME Bat, but to offer our experiences in an effort to make Bat even ME better. I've used Bat for many years and still find this editor ME very annoying. So my habit is to use UltraEdit alongside Bat. I ME would rather use just one program. While your opinions are certainly respectable, getting them implemented means you need to express these things to the developers, rather than fellow users. ME The suggestion of model/view should not be shouted down. Although I don't think Allie shouted, his response lended itself to an excessively authoritarian interpretation which knowing him as I do, represents a less than ideal way of expressing that which he meant to say rather than the logical interpretation you gave it. ME Model/view would give all of us what we want. People who like ME hard linefeeds and Alt-L could keep on using them. Meanwhile ME the rest of us would have a more intelligent and pleasant ME editor taking care of those irritating details for us. Alt+l is fine with me. Word processors use ctrl+l (for align left) instead of alt but as I said, I've gotten used to it. The above is just one users opinion, but may be as well grounded as as other user's. IAC, a future TB! could contain hooks for an external text editor, just as it already does with external AV apps, full PGP and html viewers - but you'll need to convince the developers. Douglas Douglas Current version is 1.62 | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Model/view design for text editor
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Thomas, I'm no expert on text editors, so I'd best ask. Can other editors: Change text from All Caps to All Lower Case or First Letter Caps with a 2 key keystroke combo? TF How do you do that? (Another feature I never knew of... ;-)) I use one text/rtf editor which provides a plethora of options that do allow manipulation of text in many ways. It is called keynote 1.5.8 and you can get it at the following address: http://keynote.prv.pl/ You can send mail direct from the program and it is quite amazing being it is a free application :) I prefer it over many IMO. - -- Best regards, Victor B. Gonzalez [EMAIL PROTECTED] Using The Bat! v1.62 Christmas Edition Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Request My PGP Public Keys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] iQA/AwUBPg5/FV3LB35+TCg0EQJDUwCfX7pxWbO0IQm3ftaO1O2n6cKfmGIAnixh 4YwYWS3xbrlr1Q54XKPz20Tg =BKyA -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current version is 1.62 | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Model/view design for text editor
It does seem like a heated political debate has begun. Right now, I'll step out on a limb and define the sides I see: 1. Those willing to accept the features TB provides while also wanting the option to do things in a way they consider more standardized and intuitive 2. Those firmly entrenched in the belief that TB is doing it the right way - the *only* way. And that anyone who disagrees is out to somehow destroy the program they prefer to use. First of all, let me take some text from the RitLabs website: a. The Bat! The Natural Email System b. Save your time - Extend your life! I think many problems, such as editor preference, stem from comments such as a and b above. Who's definition of natural has been used to qualify TB's usage? How many tests have been conducted to assure that time is being saved? Advanced or novice users? A few messages back someone pointed out that novice users would get confused at specifications detailing soft and hard breaks and they would not understand what the editor would do to their messages when sent. I propose that such a novice user would #1, not be using TB and #2, using TB would be infinitely more confused by the free caret and non-traditional formatting methodologies currently in place. I'm starting to distinctly paint myself into user type 1 now... :) Friday, December 27, 2002, 4:23:46 AM, Dierk wrote: Sorry, Agent uses soft-wraps during composition and will only change that to hard-wraps during send. Luckily the developers knew the rouble behind this and decided to soft-wrap at the pre-defined lengths - regardless of the window size. We agree that the Agent editor has many shortcomings but also has a number of strengths. I've been using Agent since the summer of 1995. I have been on countless beta runs with it and had quite a bit of input into various bug fixes and editor enhancements. Sadly, the time to increase the editor's robustness to the next level has not yet been allocated. My experience with TB started just over two years ago. I evaluated it for a brief time but found it would not be able to replace my other software at the time. I made several suggestions for improvement and I'm happy t say a number of them are now in place. My editor suggestions were well received at the time and were supposed to find their way as options into version 2. I didn't think version 2 would be this far off. Having re-evaluated TB about a month ago, I decided to make a complete switch while configuring my new network. The program should simply respect what the user entered. If I want a paragraph break, I'll press Enter. If I don't, I don't. That's not quite the right way with e-mail, the standard is to have a LB/CR (hard-wrap) at around 72 characters; PGP and Agent, BTW, use exactly that as default. Alas, you're now confusing e-mail with text composition. No one is asking for mail to be sent/delivered in a different way. Just for more options when composing. Saying there is a right and wrong way to compose is very closed-minded. Agent, as you mentioned, soft-wraps at the same point it will hard-wrap when sending. That's a very convenient option, IMO. Like many other features, it's nice to be able to configure such behaviour. TB doesn't allow for much configuration of its editor. Though it does feature some very powerful composition tools. So, you cannot just make up a paragraph by one new line, you need two. Says who? You can easily make a new paragraph in agent with a single new line. This is all in implementation. Which has become standard even in business letters Oh oh Someone bringing up standards while trying to make an argument against the very use of them. 3) How come I regularly get messages - mostly from OL/OE - which don't wrap at all, they show even lengthy posts in just one long line? Must be because your viewer isn't smart enough to wrap those lines. :) Or rather it simply lacks an option to wrap those lines at either a preselected length or at the window edge. TB wraps HTML/RICH mail without a problem that was composed with Outlook as far as I can tell. Does it have to be the same in appearance? Yes. Try making up a table. How often do I make a table in an email message? Not very often. And if one wants to make a table, one just has to enable the necessary editor features to do so. This again is not a reason for not supporting additional functionality in the editor. I can make a table fairly easily in TextPad for instance. The ability to have a free caret also should not affect the program's ability to wrap text properly (TB often leaves white space at the start of a line without a paragraph as you're typing - this is with auto-wrap on but auto-format off. You have to manually format to correct. Auto-format is too annoying, IMO.) Isn't it much more convenient if you can resize the window as you're typing, and have the text automatically conform to the new size of the window - and so can the
Re[2]: Model/view design for text editor
I would just hope that people would come away with the most important part of the debate portion of the model/view suggestion is that it could (fundamentally speaking) have a feature set to satisfy everyone. A mimic of the current editor with the added options some of us want (and would make the program more appealing to some potential customers). I'd love a way to disable the free caret. I'd love to be able to toggle my view between fixed-pitch and variable-pitch fonts (I rarely need to use the font for making columnar alignment) etc... Using an external editor has many shortcomings in addition to the ones already mentioned. An integrated mail-centric interface is the primary one that comes to mind - I like having editable mail headers at the top of my mail editors. It not the easiest thing to do with an established program, but any suggestions I may have for the program, I do not intend to replace existing functionality. Having the program be its best for the greatest number of potential customers makes some sense to me. I like what the bat offers, but I cannot recommend it to many friends because of some of its _uniqueness_ :) Bruno -- Using The Bat! v1.62 Christmas Edition on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 1.62 | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
