Re: sysupgrade: select sets to install
Am 10.07.2019 20:18 schrieb Theo de Raadt:
Ofcourse there are also custom sets, like site${VERSION}-*.tgz . Which
is
something to keep in mind.
Yeah, we could delete support for that entirely
Those of you so used to pushing buttons and requiring special features
used by a limited subset of the community really don't know what hole
you are starting to dig
Please do not for the install-installer. I think those who are really
using site*.tgz
know that automation is obliteration and don't need site (or selected
sets
back then) "awareness" in the update tools.
While I think sys{upgrade,patch,merge} are useful, who installs such
machines (e.g. laptops) in a "site.tgz" way anyway?
--
pb
Re: sysupgrade: select sets to install
On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 12:18:33PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> > Ofcourse there are also custom sets, like site${VERSION}-*.tgz . Which is
> > something to keep in mind.
>
> Yeah, we could delete support for that entirely
I use site.tgz to configure my regression test machines. This is
a useful feature.
bluhm
Re: sysupgrade: select sets to install
Hiltjo Posthuma wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 05:09:12PM +0200, Klemens Nanni wrote:
> > I think sysupgrade should, if at all, use the same semantics as the
> > installer. That is, something like `sysugprade -S '-* b*'" to upgrade
> > nothing but kernels and base.
> >
> > Such options offer great potential for users to shoot themselves in the
> > foot by doing partial upgrades; I am not really sold on the idea, yet.
> >
>
> Ofcourse there are also custom sets, like site${VERSION}-*.tgz . Which is
> something to keep in mind.
Yeah, we could delete support for that entirely
Those of you so used to pushing buttons and requiring special features
used by a limited subset of the community really don't know what hole
you are starting to dig
Re: sysupgrade: select sets to install
On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 05:09:12PM +0200, Klemens Nanni wrote:
> I think sysupgrade should, if at all, use the same semantics as the
> installer. That is, something like `sysugprade -S '-* b*'" to upgrade
> nothing but kernels and base.
>
> Such options offer great potential for users to shoot themselves in the
> foot by doing partial upgrades; I am not really sold on the idea, yet.
>
Ofcourse there are also custom sets, like site${VERSION}-*.tgz . Which is
something to keep in mind.
--
Kind regards,
Hiltjo
Re: sysupgrade: select sets to install
Stuart Henderson wrote: > On 2019/07/10 17:02, Ingo Schwarze wrote: > > Hi Theo, > > > > Theo de Raadt wrote on Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 09:23:25AM -0600: > > > Klemens Nanni wrote: > > > > >> I think sysupgrade should, if at all, use the same semantics as the > > >> installer. That is, something like `sysugprade -S '-* b*'" to upgrade > > >> nothing but kernels and base. > > >> > > >> Such options offer great potential for users to shoot themselves in the > > >> foot by doing partial upgrades; I am not really sold on the idea, yet. > > > > > From time to time I consider merging all the sets into baseXX.tgz. > > > > That sounds reasonable to me. Having separate sets was probably > > useful in the 1980ies, but nowadays, it provides little benefit in > > a general-purpose operating system, and getting rid of it would > > reduce maintenance effort and recurring confusion when people shoot > > themselves in the foot by not installings parts of the operating > > system they actually want to use, then asking questions why their > > system isn't working as expected. > > > > By the way, on amd64, merging in game65 would make base65 1.3% larger, > > man65 3.5%, and even comp65 only 35%. > > > > It seems similar to avoiding flavours in ports if those flavours > > provide little benefit: KISS. > > > > Then again, merging the sets causes some work and churn and certainly > > isn't an urgent task, but eventually and at a convenient time, i > > expect that it should and will happen. > > > > Yours, > > Ingo > > > > Having them split does at least give us some reasonably simple > way to get around the far too small /usr partition that disklabel > autopartitioning used to use. However time moves on, and systems should eventually be reinstalled since too much has changed. The problem with the many-sets approach is the large number of people who believe they should push that button because it they see it as an invitation.
Re: sysupgrade: select sets to install
On 2019/07/10 17:02, Ingo Schwarze wrote: > Hi Theo, > > Theo de Raadt wrote on Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 09:23:25AM -0600: > > Klemens Nanni wrote: > > >> I think sysupgrade should, if at all, use the same semantics as the > >> installer. That is, something like `sysugprade -S '-* b*'" to upgrade > >> nothing but kernels and base. > >> > >> Such options offer great potential for users to shoot themselves in the > >> foot by doing partial upgrades; I am not really sold on the idea, yet. > > > From time to time I consider merging all the sets into baseXX.tgz. > > That sounds reasonable to me. Having separate sets was probably > useful in the 1980ies, but nowadays, it provides little benefit in > a general-purpose operating system, and getting rid of it would > reduce maintenance effort and recurring confusion when people shoot > themselves in the foot by not installings parts of the operating > system they actually want to use, then asking questions why their > system isn't working as expected. > > By the way, on amd64, merging in game65 would make base65 1.3% larger, > man65 3.5%, and even comp65 only 35%. > > It seems similar to avoiding flavours in ports if those flavours > provide little benefit: KISS. > > Then again, merging the sets causes some work and churn and certainly > isn't an urgent task, but eventually and at a convenient time, i > expect that it should and will happen. > > Yours, > Ingo > Having them split does at least give us some reasonably simple way to get around the far too small /usr partition that disklabel autopartitioning used to use.
Re: sysupgrade: select sets to install
Hi Theo, Theo de Raadt wrote on Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 09:23:25AM -0600: > Klemens Nanni wrote: >> I think sysupgrade should, if at all, use the same semantics as the >> installer. That is, something like `sysugprade -S '-* b*'" to upgrade >> nothing but kernels and base. >> >> Such options offer great potential for users to shoot themselves in the >> foot by doing partial upgrades; I am not really sold on the idea, yet. > From time to time I consider merging all the sets into baseXX.tgz. That sounds reasonable to me. Having separate sets was probably useful in the 1980ies, but nowadays, it provides little benefit in a general-purpose operating system, and getting rid of it would reduce maintenance effort and recurring confusion when people shoot themselves in the foot by not installings parts of the operating system they actually want to use, then asking questions why their system isn't working as expected. By the way, on amd64, merging in game65 would make base65 1.3% larger, man65 3.5%, and even comp65 only 35%. It seems similar to avoiding flavours in ports if those flavours provide little benefit: KISS. Then again, merging the sets causes some work and churn and certainly isn't an urgent task, but eventually and at a convenient time, i expect that it should and will happen. Yours, Ingo
Re: sysupgrade: select sets to install
Klemens Nanni wrote: > I think sysupgrade should, if at all, use the same semantics as the > installer. That is, something like `sysugprade -S '-* b*'" to upgrade > nothing but kernels and base. > > Such options offer great potential for users to shoot themselves in the > foot by doing partial upgrades; I am not really sold on the idea, yet. I think the most predictable thing for sysupgrade to do by default would be to upgrade only those sets I installed originally/installed the last time I upgraded through the installer program. Thus I could make the decision about sets once and not have to think about it every six months (every few days if following snaps!). I don't know whether this design would require the installer to leave additional state behind that it doesn't already, e.g. a list in /var/db/sets. Evan Silberman
Re: sysupgrade: select sets to install
Klemens Nanni wrote: > I think sysupgrade should, if at all, use the same semantics as the > installer. That is, something like `sysugprade -S '-* b*'" to upgrade > nothing but kernels and base. > > Such options offer great potential for users to shoot themselves in the > foot by doing partial upgrades; I am not really sold on the idea, yet. >From time to time I consider merging all the sets into baseXX.tgz.
Re: sysupgrade: select sets to install
I think sysupgrade should, if at all, use the same semantics as the installer. That is, something like `sysugprade -S '-* b*'" to upgrade nothing but kernels and base. Such options offer great potential for users to shoot themselves in the foot by doing partial upgrades; I am not really sold on the idea, yet.
