[Texascavers] Resend magic link trick to David

[Dwight via Texascavers]

Hit delete now! 


https://www.facebook.com/italo.fernandes.566/videos/780958728762354/ 


The mystery caver has a degree (piled higher and deeper) in chemistry 

DirtDoc 

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Re: [Texascavers] A mobile-camp-kitchen idea.

[Dwight via Texascavers]

That is an interesting item. Thanks David. 

DirtDoc 
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Re: [Texascavers] The Elf

[Dwight via Texascavers]

I don't think David would look very good in a diminutive little green elf suit 
. Though it is an interesting vision. 

Dirtdoc 
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Re: [Texascavers] 6x6 for sale

[Dwight via Texascavers]

Just plop a little airstream trailer on the back  
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Re: [Texascavers] Spider caver Galapagos connections

[Dwight via Texascavers]

Undoubtedly. Swamp rats from Florida don't know much about Texas cavers. Good 
chance they also have gator poop in their ears and never did learn to spell too 
well. 

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Re: [Texascavers] and convention guidebook

[Dwight via Texascavers]

Bill:I have an Albuquerque (New Mexico 2017) field trip guidebook I can send to 
you to keep or otherwise dispose of if you cannot find another. FYI We moved 
yesterday to 21810 Longs Peak Lane, Parker, CO 80138. It is currently is in a 
box someplace. As of today our internet and telephones are back up (the same as 
before). 

DirtDoc 
- Original Message -

From: "Mixon Bill via Texascavers"  
To: "Cavers Texas"  
Cc: "Mixon Bill"  
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 2:30:38 PM 
Subject: [Texascavers] and convention guidebook 

Also the guidebook for the 2017 NSS convention. I hear that they ran out of 
printed copies during the convention, so a PDF should certainly be available, 
but it hasn't found its way onto the NSS web site yet. -- Mixon 
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Re: [Texascavers] not Loose at all

[Dwight via Texascavers]

Ah yes!. Rich was NOT loose! 

DirtDoc 


- Original Message -

From: "Linda Starr"  
To: "Logan McNatt"  
Cc: "Lee H. Skinner" , "New Mexico Cavers" 
, "Texas Cavers"  
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 2:20:51 PM 
Subject: Re: [SWR CAVERS] Indiana University freshman found after surviving 
three days in a cave 

I remember an incident many years ago in the '70s, my first trip to Fort 
Stanton Cave, maybe, where we locked one of our cavers in the cave. We didn't 
go anywhere and were all camped at the cave when we noticed Rich Loose was not 
with us. We hollered for him with no answer and went to the cave and there he 
was at the gate, slightly disgruntled. This was a different situation with a 
supervised youth group. It sounds like a major screw-up in the leadership. 

Linda Starr 
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[Texascavers] Earthqake in China's Karst

[Dwight via Texascavers]

Earthqake in China's Karst 



Reported variously as a 6.5 or 7.0, an earthquake near the karst lakes of 
Jiuzhaigou, on the edge of the Tibetan Plateau in SW China. This remarkable 
karst area is similar to Plitvice Lakes, Croatia’s National Park and World 
Heritage Site, on the other side of the Earth. In both places the water in the 
lakes is precipitating large rimstone dams. The dams are actually growing with 
time and the waterfalls at the outlet of the lakes are actually growing taller 
with time. 



At least 19 people have been killed, more than 250 injured, and many, many 
tourists are trapped. 



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-earthquake-latest-update-6-magnitude-seismic-tremor-usgs-a7882681.html
 



http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/08/asia/china-earthquake/index.html 



Dirtdoc. 
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Re: [Texascavers] A new t.v. show ??

[Dwight via Texascavers]

"Phillips said during his time on the show, he spent a lot of time praying, 
quoting scripture and reflecting." 

Yup. Sounds like the right thing to do. 

DirtDoc 
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Re: [Texascavers] David's guarantee

[Dwight via Texascavers]

Good luck, David. I have had several of those 50-50 guarantees myself. 50 
seconds or 50 feet. DirtDoc 
 

My Sequoia and I finally arrived home at 12:45 in the morning today July 27th. 
SNIP 
These kind of shops are crooks or shysters in my opinion. 

David Locklear 
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Re: [Texascavers] Mammoth Cave Specter

[Dwight via Texascavers]

It's quite interesting since the story seems to have been initially written as 
a piece of fiction. 

- Original Message -

From: "Louise Power via Texascavers" <texascavers@texascavers.com> 
To: "texascavers@texascavers.com" <Texascavers@texascavers.com> 
Cc: "Louise Power" <power_lou...@hotmail.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 9:38:44 PM 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Mammoth Cave Specter 



Dwight, 




Sounds like the plot of a Spielberg movie. 


From: Texascavers <texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com> on behalf of Dwight via 
Texascavers <texascavers@texascavers.com> 
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2017 9:46 PM 
To: Cave NM; Cave Texas; TAG Net 
Cc: Dwight 
Subject: [Texascavers] Mammoth Cave Specter 

The Short Story 

Experienced Mammoth Cave folks may have heard of Melissa. She was in love with 
her tutor, but he failed to reciprocate her affections. For her revenge, she 
abandoned him in Mammoth Cave in 1843 without a lamp. He was never heard of 
again. Visitors and cave guides tell of hearing her voice as she roams the 
passages calling for her lost love. 

In some telling of the tale (and it WAS Mammoth Cave, after all) she contracted 
consumption. Her mysterious voice (as heard in the cave) has her doleful 
refrain interrupted by fitful coughing. 

If you would like a 2 page PDF file with more details, write to 
dirt...@comcast.net and request a copy. 

DirtDoc 



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Re: [Texascavers] My Sequoia saga

[Dwight via Texascavers]

Good idea, Louise. David: Sell the turkey with a "new" engine and get the Best 
Price you can before something else goes, like the tranny. Then buy some 
replacement 

It's either that or drive it (and your debt) into the ground. 

BUT get a GOOD mechanic to check a replacement out before you commit to a new 
one. Good, really good, caver-mechanics in the Austin area. I saw someone gave 
you names with that excellent advice a while back. 

Good Luck. The world has not ended. 

Dirtdoc 
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[Texascavers] Mammoth Cave Specter

[Dwight via Texascavers]

The Short Story 

Experienced Mammoth Cave folks may have heard of Melissa. She was in love with 
her tutor, but he failed to reciprocate her affections. For her revenge, she 
abandoned him in Mammoth Cave in 1843 without a lamp. He was never heard of 
again. Visitors and cave guides tell of hearing her voice as she roams the 
passages calling for her lost love. 

In some telling of the tale (and it WAS Mammoth Cave, after all) she contracted 
consumption. Her mysterious voice (as heard in the cave) has her doleful 
refrain interrupted by fitful coughing. 

If you would like a 2 page PDF file with more details, write to 
dirt...@comcast.net and request a copy. 

DirtDoc 


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Re: [Texascavers] 12 miles in USA Today

[Dwight via Texascavers]

That's Wonderful!! You appear to have presented us with a very good model. 

DirtDoc 


- Original Message -

From: "Steve Peerman"  
To: "Dwight Deal"  
Cc: "TAG Net" , "Cave Texas" 
, "SWR Cavers Group"  
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 6:28:35 PM 
Subject: Re: 12 miles in USA Today 

Dwight, 
In the past, we have incorporated non-cavers into our projects by having them 
help out with digs, resistivity, ridgewalking, and other things that don’t 
demand a lot of experience. In several cases, folks who started as non-cavers 
eventually were able to participate in projects in the cave. 
We’ve also referred interested folks to grottos to get further experience. In 
one case, Knutt and I met a lady at the entrance of Fort Stanton Cave during 
the last expedition with absolutely no experience but a great deal of interest. 
We referred her to the Sandia Grotto and she followed up with it and even 
attended the convention in Rio Rancho, going on several of the trips that were 
offered. 
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[Texascavers] 12 miles in USA Today

[Dwight via Texascavers]

New Mexico's Lincoln County, Snowy River and Fort Stanton Cave make headlines 
in USA TODAY! 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/local/2017/07/05/snowy-river-book-sold-fort-stanton-live/453916001/
 

Will this bring us some new NSS members? 

This news release does refer interested individuals to the Fort Stanton Cave 
Study Project web site, but that is clearly written for established cavers. It 
gives the dates for the upcoming project schedule. 

Your web site is wonderful, conveys the right message, and is very educational. 
You list a series of requirements for participation in work trips and then say: 

--- 

The FSCSP is unable to accommodate persons not possessing all of the above 
skills, attitudes and equipment during project events in caves . However you 
are welcome to join us in surface events where we perform other work including 
ridge-walking and various scientific activities such as geophysical surveys 
during regular or special expeditions. 

Fort Stanton Cave is a publicly-owned resource and sections of the cave have 
been available in the past for recreational trips under a permit system from 
April 15 through October 31. Although the cave is currently closed to the 
general public because of White Nose Syndrome requirements, in the future 
interested persons may contact the BLM for information concerning application 
for a public entrance permit, or directly at the Roswell BLM office,. In 
addition to the SWR , the BLM also may be able to provide contact information 
for caving clubs where appropriate experience may be gained to enable future 
participation in FSCSP projects. 

---
 

How do you plan to respond to inquiries from non-cavers in light of this 
discussion of getting new NSS members? It does not seem very welcoming but 
clearly this is something that needs to be dealt with on an individual basis. 
The implication is that you will refer them to a local grotto. It's not clear 
what the SWR is, but you can find out by clicking on the link. 

It will be interesting to see how many inquiries the FSCSP and the BLM get from 
non-cavers and cavers who are not NSS members. I would say that this is both an 
opportunity and a worth-while experiment. Keep us posted! 

DirtDoc 
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Re: [Texascavers] Land ownership in Texas

[Dwight via Texascavers]

That's just the biggest "school district" of them all  

DirtDoc 

- Original Message -

From: "pstrickland1--- via Texascavers"  
To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
Cc: pstrickla...@austin.rr.com 
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 3:32:04 PM 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Land ownership in Texas 

The university of Texas System has substantial land holdings in west Texas, 
including Amazing Maze Cave and 09 Water Well. 
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[Texascavers] Land ownership in Texas

[Dwight via Texascavers]

Thanks Mike. You are correct in that the private ownership of caves presents 
it's own set of potential problems. 

But you are not correct about land ownership in Texas. There is a LOT of 
"public" ownership, especially in West Texas. Much is held by the State of 
Texas, not the federal gvt. (except for the National Parks and a small national 
forest). The General Land Office, Texas Parks and Wildlife, and school disricts 
are the largest public land owning bureaucracies but the land is often leased 
to individuals who treat it as their own private fiefdom. That may not help 
much if you want access. 

DirtDoc 

- Original Message -

From: "Michael Queen"  
To: "Dwight"  
Cc: "TAG Net" , idigca...@yahoo.com, "Cave NM" 
, "Cave Texas"  
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 10:19:30 AM 
Subject: Re: [SWR CAVERS] Future of NSS membership 

I think it is a drastic oversimplification to suggest that private ownership of 
caves necessarily makes things easier for us or safer for the caves than agency 
ownership. We are still excluded from Skull Cave (Albany County, NY), because 
the owners were spooked by an accident (in a separate cave owned by different 
folk) back in about 1971. When a land management agency works well things are 
great, as they are with private owners. However, if things go south with 
private owners there is absolutely no recourse but to buy the caves, and often 
the owners don't want to sell. Look at what caving in Texas is like, with 
almost no public land ownership. Anyone who thinks you can just go caving 
wherever and whenever one wants should think twice. So if we are lucky enough 
to know the land owners we can decry ownership by public agencies. But if we 
are not so lucky we should not too quickly criticize public ownership, and we 
should speak out against efforts to transfer federal lands to state or private 
ownership. 

MQ 
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[Texascavers] Future of NSS membership

[Dwight via Texascavers]

Hi John: 



I started caving in the east where private ownership of caves was the norm. New 
York and New England, then Virginia and West Virginia. I moved west and have 
dealt with government ownership of caves: State or Federal by various agencies. 
So I understand your issues quite well. In many ways it is fair to say that we 
cavers are now reaping what we have sowed. The history of the last 50 years of 
exploration and discovery in Ft. Stanton cave in New Mexico (as well documented 
in the recent publication 12 Miles from Daylight ) so clearly documents the 
complications resulting from agency ownership. The way we go caving is affected 
by the way caves are owned and managed: by an individual, a family, a private 
trust, or a bureaucracy. 



That, however, is a different (but not entirely unrelated) question from the 
one I intended to ask, which was focused on the future membership of the NSS. 
How do we acquire new NSS members? Most members have been recruited either from 
existing cavers or by NSS groups recruiting new members from the interested 
public through structured educational and recruitment campaigns. Most of us 
probably agree that our goal is to create an educated public aware of the value 
and fragility of our cave resources as well as a body of people who actually 
spend some of their time exploring and studying caves. 



The intended goal of my question is to lead to new, younger, members of the NSS 
to carry on our goals into the changing future. 



Thanks for your thoughts and comments. You raise the management issues that 
complicate our enjoyment of "just going caving". 



DirtDoc 
xx 
Dirt Doc Question 
By: John Hutchison (White House, Tennessee) 
idigca...@yahoo.com 

Dwight Deal asked a question. "In your thinking, John, what is the 
balance between cavers and the caves? Our near-term experiences vrs the 
resource itself?' 

All I have to relate to is my own personal observance. In years past 
caves were much easier to visit when they were privately owned. Once 
government became involved the issue of access became a hassle, an extra 
expense, and worst of all, a no go. Today, most government owned, or 
controlled caves are closed outright (unless you know the right person). 
Others require a permit, hunting license fee, or all three. One area in 
my state wants to charge everyone $15 a day per vehicle for a day trip 
and that does not include a permit to go caving. No camping, no caving, 
even though there are some great caves on the property. It is also a 
hassle to acquire the land permit as you have to go when the office is 
open and it is often not close to where you want to go. Private 
landowners were much easier to deal with. You went, you asked and you 
got to go or you didn't. Free. 

Here in TN we had a great cove and cave called Camps Gulf. Both were 
pristine. Then the local state park acquired the cave and began 
shuttling non caver tourists to the cave. Once they knew where it was 
they would sometimes come back on their own and trash the cave. So that 
was the excuse used to gate off the entire cove. No more camping, no 
more driving a 4x4 up the cove. The cave was pristine before the state 
acquired it. So is it really better when everything is "proteceted"? 
Once "protected" people tend to sneak or breach a gate and vandalize 
just because they are P.O.'d that they can't access "public" owned land. 

So, as far as I can tell, the best protection of all, was not telling 
the general public where all the caves are. Grottoes were the best way 
to learn caver etiquette, proper procedures, safety, environmental 
concerns, technique, equipment, and cave locations while accompanied by 
trained cavers. 

The state of TN has bought up thousands of acres of land with hundreds 
of great caves and paid for it with public money yet most of it is off 
limits to the public. Is that really right? I don't think so. Sometimes 
I wish I could live in the past. 


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Re: [Texascavers] The view from the Sleaze

[Dwight via Texascavers]

Great story (quoted below) about your adventures with beginning cavers, Sleaze 
. Glad you were there "just in case". S---t happens, as you know too well. 
Hope you recover before your thumbs (or other appendages) fall off. Watch out 
for the sand flies. 

DirtDoc 

- Original Message -

From: "Sleazeweazel via Texascavers"  
To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
Cc: bmorgan...@aol.com 
Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2017 9:26:16 AM 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The future of NSS membership 


Some years ago I went to a dinky little cave in Ocala Florida to discover a 
group of ten year olds preparing to sneak in with candles and string. I humbly 
asked if I could join them and never revealed that I had actual caving gear. It 
was one of the best caving trips of my life! Ill bet those kids are cavers 
today, and I would also wager that if they had gone on an FSS sponsored trip 
with helmets and lights and a safety lecture it would have been no better than 
some pansy boy scout trip. 
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[Texascavers] The future of NSS membership

[Dwight via Texascavers]

The future of NSS membership 





There have been a series of really thoughtful comments in the blog on SW Cavers 
about our membership, its growth, and the future. The most thoughtful and 
productive so far is the recent one from Geary Schindel (see below). 



I am in the middle of several time-consuming tasks, but want to throw my two 
cents into the arena with the intent of contributing more, later. The Society 
and the fellowship of other cavers has clearly been important to me for most of 
my life. But my caving did not start out that way. 



1. Historically the NSS has taken the attitude of not advertising or 
encouraging non-cavers, as has already been discussed well by others. Is it 
time to change? Were you once a non-caver? Did you have an interest in caves 
before meeting NSS cavers? 



2. In my personal experience young cavers were most easily recruited by Student 
Grottoes. I was both a member and faculty sponsor of several. The lure of 
adventure and discovery was usually secondary after the drive to meet potential 
girl- or boy-friends. I remember that at "Club Night" in the fall we 
deliberately selected and appropriately costumed the best looking girls to talk 
to the freshman guys and the hunks to talk to the girls. An interest in cave 
exploration (or cave science) mostly grew with the accumulation of the 
experiences of discovery, more than "adventure". (As far as item 1 above, I 
think in the earlier days it was the "adventure" part that we were trying NOT 
to encourage. I don't think that has changed.) 



There are several grottoes that made a transition from Student to Community 
(Regular) grottoes. Sandia comes to mind but that happened while I was gone 
(about 30 years) from Albuquerque. Was that a pivotal time when the ageing of 
the grotto began? There are some grottoes who continue to have a good younger 
membership. San Antonio (Bexar Grotto). I was impressed at the last few Texas 
regional gatherings that I attended by the presence of a fair number of younger 
members, but I have no idea of their stories. Geary describes some of the 
reasons. 



3. I have led a lot of "beginner" trips over the years. For initial, 
non-vertical, trips I found a good way to foster a fascination in exploration 
and discovery was to lead from behind once I felt that they had a general 
competence in their equipment and common sense. I used Ft. Stanton cave for 
that purpose a number of times. It was there I discovered the enthusiasm 
fostered by monitoring, from the rear where possible, of the group of neophytes 
working their way through easy but challenging passages such as Crystal Crawl 
and even Hellhole. I can't recall specific instances, but from that group in 
the 60s came some of our established leaders today - Harvey DuChene, John 
Corcoran, Robbie Babb, Jim Hardy, Carol Carmine (now Belski), and a number of 
others who discovered something about caves and themselves that interested 
them. 



Send your new folks ahead into somewhere you know is not dangerous but will 
lead to an attractive surprise. Let them discover for themselves. The Oh Wow! 
factor. Not just some "pretty little room" where the struggle is to turn around 
and agree that yes, it was pretty little. 



There never will be an agreement on how far to go "advertising" caving as an 
activity. I have seen the NSS grow from a fairly small number of groups each 
with only a few people with a shared focus (and not-so shared, beyond something 
vaguely related to "caves") to a large and occasionally unwieldy organization 
with more than 10,000 members. Our founders have matured and died. Our 
individual and societal wealth has grown. Our individual interests and focus 
has changed. Who, in the 50s and 60s, realistically thought the NSS itself 
would actually OWN caves? Society has changed and people-pressure has been put 
on wilderness, both above and below ground. Out west we now have to plan ahead 
and get permits to go into a cave on public lands, not just decide Friday night 
where to go caving on Saturday. The hardest core who have discovered the lure 
of virgin cave continue charging onward, usually surmounting significant 
physical and personal hardships. But the rest? The "average" caver? How did 
they first get interested and why have they stayed involved? Does your own 
story offer lessons for others in the future? 



Myself? Not sure it helps in this day and age. I was an enthusiastic beginning 
caver with a college outing club in upstate New York. I was already an 
outdoorsman and explorer of the woods, mountains, lakes, and rivers. Caving 
seemed like a logical extension. Girls? Yes, well sort of. Still a freshman, 
they were a secondary lure to the outing club but girls did not go on our 
caving trips. I was at an all-male school (well, 4,000 guys and 3 women 
undergrads). We met the girls mostly on the square dance outings, clearly 
separate from caving adventures. One Saturday I drove past some dirty 

[Texascavers] Cuban cavers

[Dwight via Texascavers]

Many of you know we have made 5 trips to Cuba since 2012. Just came back from 
the Oriente (Holguin, Gibara, Camaguey, and Santiago de Cuba). Met with more 
than a dozen groups of cavers, got into a few caves, and made a lot of contacts 
with the Cuban cavers, both old timers and new very active ones, including cave 
divers. Those interested and make it to Albuquerque, we can talk about it then. 



I can't find the past post, but a while ago there were some comments from an 
individual(s) who had interacted with Alejandro Romero (past SEC President) 
from Sancti Spiritus either in Cuba or the USA (or elsewhere).. Please respond 
off line as I would like to carry on the conversation with you. 



dirt...@comcast.net. 



Thanks 
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