Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] 12 miles in USA Today

[Michael Queen via Texascavers]

The critical thing in interesting new cavers is achieving the sense of
exploration - of the unknown.  We need more caves like Wind and Sand (BLM,
Guadalupe Mnts), which are complicated to the point of being bewildering to
new cavers (or Eastern cavers used to stream passages), without delineated
trails. Regardless of how beautiful or unusual a cave is, being confined to
taped trails  makes it too much like visiting museums and being warned not
to get closer than three feet from the art. That was part of my experience
growing up, but doesn't fit into the experience or interests of most young
people today. Preserving caving as a sport and an adventure is a different
challenge than preserving caves. Once people are hooked on caves they may
be more easily introduced to cave conservation, etc.,  lacking which it is
too cerebral for most, and they quickly become tired, bored and looking for
the next short lived adventure.

M

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 11:58 PM, Michael Queen  wrote:

> When I have been asked about newbies going to Lech I have always stressed
> the skills and general fitness and competence needed. However, I have also
> said that someone with determination and w/o too serious health issues can
> undertake learning and practice, attach oneself to smaller mapping projects
> and learn some skills so as to make oneself useful, and they could hope to
> get into the cave, perhaps on project trips if not exploration. And I know
> several people who have done just that. Our grotto chairman is a new caver
> but has done a whole bunch of caves in just a few years, is strong,
> vertically competent , and is becoming a mapper. He recently went into Lech
> and did fine. The idea and perception of extreme exclusivity and
> cliquishness is  hugely counter-productive.  Being encouraging   is not the
> same as  casually suggesting that just anyone can go.
>
> As someone who has occasionally caved in penny loafers and flannel slacks
> (after dinner with the governor in Bermuda - an island of 60 thousand, so
> caving with the governor is about the same as caving with the mayor of
> Carlsbad, but just more formal), I am not put off by someone who attends a
> meeting for the first time in semiformal attire. What did she wear the
> second time? Some people are just more formal than others, and it has
> nothing to do with experience or capabilities. I'd suggest that it  is no
> stranger than the Randy Gandy folk? One friend drives a classic Aston
> Martin, but is perfectly comfortable slogging through the mud with the rest
> of us. Being flexible is as much a state of mind as a state of one's
> physical body.
>
> M
>
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Lynda Sanchez  > wrote:
>
>> I sent her more information about the book, referred her to the website
>> (fscsp) and also to Pete should she want a copy of the book.  She was
>> mainly interested in the book as a source of information and history.  In
>> the future I will direct anyone either to Pete or to the website.  I think
>> sometimes speaking to a “real” person helps too.
>>
>> It wouldn’t hurt if the Sandia Grotto folks would write up some of their
>> field trips and things they do like the clean up at Sandia Cave.  That
>> article was very good, and more of that kind of thing is needed in all
>> areas where grottos exist.  It is a good way to recruit when people
>> associate the name with a great learning experience or field trip.
>>
>> Lynda
>>
>> *From:* Linda Starr 
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 12, 2017 12:54 PM
>> *To:* Lynda Sanchez 
>> *Cc:* Dwight  ; TAG Net  ; Cave
>> Texas  ; Cave NM
>> 
>> *Subject:* Re: [SWR CAVERS] 12 miles in USA Today
>>
>> Lynda,
>>  What did you tell the UNM student?  The Sandia Grotto meets the 1st
>> Tuesday of each month and we intend to have a recreational trip for new
>> cavers once a month.  Please direct anyone near Albuquerque to the Sandia
>> Grotto.  When we were doing this book, I didn't think of the opportunity to
>> recruit new members.  If you need an address, it's on our website and we
>> also have a Facebook page.  Pete is in charge of the grotto website. I
>> don't have a URL offhand.
>>
>> Linda Starr
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Lynda Sanchez <
>> diamond...@pvtnetworks.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Dwight,  it might get some folks interested and that is a first step.
>>> However, they also have to have caves to explore and this is a major
>>> problem at the moment in many areas.  We try to provide activities for all
>>> levels of ability and interest.  That is why we mention ridge walking and
>>> other surface activities.  We have gotten help in those areas too and
>>> eventually those folks are great support.
>>>
>>> We have had many inquiries about this book from both cavers and
>>> non-cavers.  As a result of 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] 12 miles in USA Today

[Michael Queen via Texascavers]

When I have been asked about newbies going to Lech I have always stressed
the skills and general fitness and competence needed. However, I have also
said that someone with determination and w/o too serious health issues can
undertake learning and practice, attach oneself to smaller mapping projects
and learn some skills so as to make oneself useful, and they could hope to
get into the cave, perhaps on project trips if not exploration. And I know
several people who have done just that. Our grotto chairman is a new caver
but has done a whole bunch of caves in just a few years, is strong,
vertically competent , and is becoming a mapper. He recently went into Lech
and did fine. The idea and perception of extreme exclusivity and
cliquishness is  hugely counter-productive.  Being encouraging   is not the
same as  casually suggesting that just anyone can go.

As someone who has occasionally caved in penny loafers and flannel slacks
(after dinner with the governor in Bermuda - an island of 60 thousand, so
caving with the governor is about the same as caving with the mayor of
Carlsbad, but just more formal), I am not put off by someone who attends a
meeting for the first time in semiformal attire. What did she wear the
second time? Some people are just more formal than others, and it has
nothing to do with experience or capabilities. I'd suggest that it  is no
stranger than the Randy Gandy folk? One friend drives a classic Aston
Martin, but is perfectly comfortable slogging through the mud with the rest
of us. Being flexible is as much a state of mind as a state of one's
physical body.

M

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Lynda Sanchez 
wrote:

> I sent her more information about the book, referred her to the website
> (fscsp) and also to Pete should she want a copy of the book.  She was
> mainly interested in the book as a source of information and history.  In
> the future I will direct anyone either to Pete or to the website.  I think
> sometimes speaking to a “real” person helps too.
>
> It wouldn’t hurt if the Sandia Grotto folks would write up some of their
> field trips and things they do like the clean up at Sandia Cave.  That
> article was very good, and more of that kind of thing is needed in all
> areas where grottos exist.  It is a good way to recruit when people
> associate the name with a great learning experience or field trip.
>
> Lynda
>
> *From:* Linda Starr 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 12, 2017 12:54 PM
> *To:* Lynda Sanchez 
> *Cc:* Dwight  ; TAG Net  ; Cave
> Texas  ; Cave NM 
> *Subject:* Re: [SWR CAVERS] 12 miles in USA Today
>
> Lynda,
>  What did you tell the UNM student?  The Sandia Grotto meets the 1st
> Tuesday of each month and we intend to have a recreational trip for new
> cavers once a month.  Please direct anyone near Albuquerque to the Sandia
> Grotto.  When we were doing this book, I didn't think of the opportunity to
> recruit new members.  If you need an address, it's on our website and we
> also have a Facebook page.  Pete is in charge of the grotto website. I
> don't have a URL offhand.
>
> Linda Starr
>
> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Lynda Sanchez  > wrote:
>
>> Dwight,  it might get some folks interested and that is a first step.
>> However, they also have to have caves to explore and this is a major
>> problem at the moment in many areas.  We try to provide activities for all
>> levels of ability and interest.  That is why we mention ridge walking and
>> other surface activities.  We have gotten help in those areas too and
>> eventually those folks are great support.
>>
>> We have had many inquiries about this book from both cavers and
>> non-cavers.  As a result of this USATODAY article, today I received a phone
>> call from a student at UNM wanting to know more.
>>
>> Once you get younger folks out into the real world of mountains, deserts
>> and canyons, caves are not far behind, IF we can find some to explore that
>> is?!!
>>
>> We will keep you posted.
>>
>> Lynda
>>
>> *From:* Dwight 
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 11, 2017 6:10 PM
>> *To:* TAG Net  ; Cave Texas
>>  ; Cave NM 
>> *Subject:* [SWR CAVERS] 12 miles in USA Today
>>
>> New Mexico's Lincoln County, Snowy River and Fort Stanton Cave make
>> headlines in USA TODAY!
>>
>> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/local/2017/07/05/snowy-
>> river-book-sold-fort-stanton-live/453916001/
>>
>> Will this bring us some new NSS members?
>>
>> This news release does refer interested individuals to the Fort Stanton
>> Cave Study Project web site, but that is clearly written for established
>> cavers.  It gives the dates for the upcoming project schedule.
>>
>> Your web site is wonderful, conveys the right message, and 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] 12 miles in USA Today

[Bill Bentley via Texascavers]

37 years of caving is limited experience... Geez.

Maybe that was why I was denied entry into Lech too because of my 
limited experience...


I was told I had to volunteer to work and do my part to go there several 
years ago... I have yet to be notified that I could participate even in 
a mule fashion of assistance.


My perception hasn't changed one bit.

As far as Whitenose... Did anyone even listen to Dr. Tuttle at the 
Convention? The country's foremost and knowledgeable person said there 
isn't much anyone can do except let it run it's course. Yet things have 
not changed and caves still remain closed or limited.


Bill



On 7/11/2017 9:13 PM, Steve Peerman wrote:

Bill,
I would be remiss in my job as Project Director if I didn’t respond. 
 I agree that this is an unfortunate perception of the FSCSP. 
 However, we work very hard to be as inclusive as possible.  The 
perception of privilege and exclusivity is, for the most part, a 
consequence of the severe limitations on entries imposed by the BLM. 
The management plan for Fort Stanton Cave calls for as many as two 
trips per day with as many as 10 cavers per trip.  That plan has been 
superseded for the last several seasons, in response of the perceived 
threat of WNS, with an annual limit of 120 entries into the cave. 
 That is supposed to accommodate all research, exploration and 
administrative entries for the season, from April 15 through October 31.
Because of this severe limitation, every entry into the cave is 
valuable and we have to make sure that we make good use of each entry. 
It makes it difficult for someone of limited experience to be placed 
on a trip, but it does happen.  We encourage trip leaders to be 
inclusive, and in the last couple of years, where more activities were 
focused on the historical part of the cave because of flooding in 
Snowy River, several new cavers and cavers new to Fort Stanton Cave 
got an opportunity to participate.



On Jul 11, 2017, at 7:42 PM, Bill Bentley > wrote:


Only a few privileged established cavers...


On 7/11/2017 7:10 PM, Dwight wrote:
New Mexico's Lincoln County, Snowy River and Fort Stanton Cave make 
headlines in USA TODAY!


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/local/2017/07/05/snowy-river-book-sold-fort-stanton-live/453916001/

Will this bring us some new NSS members?

This news release does refer interested individuals to the Fort 
Stanton Cave Study Project web site, but that is clearly written for 
established cavers.  It gives the dates for the upcoming project 
schedule.


Your web site is wonderful, conveys the right message, and is very 
educational. You list a series of requirements for participation in 
work trips and then say:


---

The FSCSP is unable to accommodate persons not possessing all of the 
above skills, attitudes and equipment during project events in 
caves. However you are welcome to join us in surface events where we 
perform other work including ridge-walking and various scientific 
activities such as geophysical surveys during regular or special 
expeditions.


Fort Stanton Cave is a publicly-owned resource and sections of the 
cave have been available in the past for recreational trips under a 
permit system from April 15 through October 31. Although the cave is 
currently closed to the general public because of White Nose 
Syndrome requirements, in the future interested persons may contact 
the BLM 
 
for information concerning application 
 
for a public entrance permit, or directly at the Roswell BLM 
office,. In addition to the SWR , 
the BLM also may be able to provide contact information for caving 
clubs where appropriate experience may be gained to enable future 
participation in FSCSP projects.


---

How do you plan to respond to inquiries from non-cavers in light of 
this discussion of getting new NSS members? It does not seem very  
welcoming but clearly this is something that needs to be dealt with 
on an individual basis.  The implication is that you will refer them 
to a local grotto. It's not clear what the SWR is, but you can find 
out by clicking on the link.


It will be interesting to see how many inquiries the FSCSP and the 
BLM get from non-cavers and cavers who are not NSS members.  I would 
say that this is both an opportunity and a worth-while experiment.  
Keep us posted!


DirtDoc
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