Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] RE: BOG Agenda Item 6-Tell your BOG to Vote NO

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

For the 2009 NSS Convention & ICS at Kerrville, TX, we had a different problem. 
The beer was free, thanks to Bill Steele and his associates that hauled it 
around, and thanks to FB who acquired the beer in the first place. Such a deal, 
and I didn't mind at all helping with the operation that offered ~ 7 different 
labels during Convention week. 

The problem arose on the hot afternoon of the first NSS Convention Banquet 
when, as one of the previous week's helpers, I was fussed at because we ran out 
of beer, or so the hot people standing in line in the hot Texas sun thought. 
Ditto the 2nd ICS Convention Banquet. Well, we had plenty of (free) cold beer 
ready to bring out to the banquet being held out of town at a ranch. The untold 
story was that we were told that morning that "The NSS does not serve beer at 
the Banquet, only wine." We were informed that this was a hard and fast (and 
unknown) rule of the NSS. Our crew finally decided it was mostly politics, akin 
to the current discussion where some in the NSS want to micro-manage what you 
can and cannot drink at "their convention". It is certainly true that the local 
sponsors of an NSS activity should be the ones that do the managing, not 
someone 15 states away. Of course the wine wasn't exactly cold or 
thirst-quenching in the hot sun. I actually bought two bottles a few days later 
(they had do recover their costs) at the close of the convention. I decided it 
was not worth the $10. I paid for a bottle. 

 - Pete

On Jun 12, 2017, at 2:25 PM, Carol Belski wrote:

Well worded, Phyllis!  It seems to me that buying beer (or wine) for an event 
can be a tricky planning problem (kind of like how many spaghetti noodles to 
cook!).  I know often the Howdy Party beverages can be overestimated but they 
are still paid for.  You can’t send it back.  For heaven’s sake, let the 
participants indulge a little the next evening or whenever, as long as state 
and local ordinances are complied with.  Hard liquor is more expensive and also 
harder to estimate how much to buy since there is such a wide range of 
products. It also takes a different liquor license. Let people buy their own 
hard liquor.  I don’t recall it ever being provided at Convention, but I 
haven’t been to all of them.

I do remember one time when supplies of beer and soda ran out very early on 
during a Howdy Party, making everyone wonder who the hell had screwed up on 
planning.  There should be ample amounts of soda and water available as well as 
beer.  I have never been a fan of wine, but if it is served, let’s maybe save 
it for the banquet and keep the quantities limited (people need to be able to 
drive the next morning, after all).

Carol Belski


> On Jun 12, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Phyllis Boneau  wrote:
> 
> From Wm's reply I conclude the concern is more about hard liquor.  If that is 
> the question, the motion should come right out and say no supplying hard 
> liquor instead of pussyfooting around about WHEN exactly alcoholic beverages 
> can be served instead of WHAT alcoholic beverages can be served.  
> (I dislike beer and find a great lack of "coke" at convention gatherings.)
> 
> Did I miss a point here?
> 
> Phyllis Boneau
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 9:16 PM, Lee H. Skinner  wrote:
> All,
> 
> 
> I see no problem with people bringing their own beer to the convention, and 
> if it saves the NSS over $7500, I think that's all the better.  Thanks, 
> William, for your reasonable explanation.
> 
> Lee Skinner
> 
> 
> On 6/11/2017 8:48 PM, mcvittetoe via Southwestern Cavers of the National 
> Speleological Society wrote:
>> OOPS, I messed up on that last email. I ment to say. To all of you booze 
>> hounds out there. I don't like paying more for conventions that use more of 
>> something that I do not use!!! I feel that if you want booze at 
>> the convention you should pay for it!
>> 
>> Marion Vittetoe said that.
>> 
>> In a message dated 6/11/2017 4:26:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
>> rckee...@cox.net writes:
>> 
>> Wm,
>> 
>>  
>> I am ashamed of you by trying to change the topic to “we’re so poor”.  This 
>> is a Convention budgeting issue, not an NSS dictating issue  … and 
>> especially after the BOG voted at the March meeting that NSS Conventions 
>> must budget for a profit.
>> 
>>  
>> The people at the Conventions are the movers and shakers of the NSS.  These 
>> are the very people who have made caves and the NSS their lives.  These are 
>> the people, who, after donating hundreds of hours each year, and many, many 
>> dollars, want to enjoy talking with their friends.
>> 
>>  
>> Everyone.  Let’s make this clearer.  The NSS is not poor and this is our 
>> national Convention.  Go to the just published Secretary-Treasurer report at 
>> https://caves.org/nss-business/reports/1706/S-T-1706.pdf  Go to Attachment A 
>> which has all of the National Speleological Foundation (NSF) funds. 
>> 
>> We have an 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] RE: BOG Agenda Item 6-Tell your BOG to Vote NO

[Carol Belski via Texascavers]

Well worded, Phyllis!  It seems to me that buying beer (or wine) for an event 
can be a tricky planning problem (kind of like how many spaghetti noodles to 
cook!).  I know often the Howdy Party beverages can be overestimated but they 
are still paid for.  You can’t send it back.  For heaven’s sake, let the 
participants indulge a little the next evening or whenever, as long as state 
and local ordinances are complied with.  Hard liquor is more expensive and also 
harder to estimate how much to buy since there is such a wide range of 
products. It also takes a different liquor license. Let people buy their own 
hard liquor.  I don’t recall it ever being provided at Convention, but I 
haven’t been to all of them.

I do remember one time when supplies of beer and soda ran out very early on 
during a Howdy Party, making everyone wonder who the hell had screwed up on 
planning.  There should be ample amounts of soda and water available as well as 
beer.  I have never been a fan of wine, but if it is served, let’s maybe save 
it for the banquet and keep the quantities limited (people need to be able to 
drive the next morning, after all).

Carol Belski


> On Jun 12, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Phyllis Boneau  wrote:
> 
> From Wm's reply I conclude the concern is more about hard liquor.  If that is 
> the question, the motion should come right out and say no supplying hard 
> liquor instead of pussyfooting around about WHEN exactly alcoholic beverages 
> can be served instead of WHAT alcoholic beverages can be served.  
> (I dislike beer and find a great lack of "coke" at convention gatherings.)
> 
> Did I miss a point here?
> 
> Phyllis Boneau
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 9:16 PM, Lee H. Skinner  > wrote:
> All,
> 
> 
> I see no problem with people bringing their own beer to the convention, and 
> if it saves the NSS over $7500, I think that's all the better.  Thanks, 
> William, for your reasonable explanation.
> 
> Lee Skinner
> 
> 
> On 6/11/2017 8:48 PM, mcvittetoe via Southwestern Cavers of the National 
> Speleological Society wrote:
>> OOPS, I messed up on that last email. I ment to say. To all of you booze 
>> hounds out there. I don't like paying more for conventions that use more of 
>> something that I do not use!!! I feel that if you want booze at 
>> the convention you should pay for it!
>> 
>> Marion Vittetoe said that.
>> 
>> In a message dated 6/11/2017 4:26:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
>> rckee...@cox.net  writes:
>> 
>> Wm,
>> 
>>  
>> I am ashamed of you by trying to change the topic to “we’re so poor”.  This 
>> is a Convention budgeting issue, not an NSS dictating issue  … and 
>> especially after the BOG voted at the March meeting that NSS Conventions 
>> must budget for a profit.
>> 
>>  
>> The people at the Conventions are the movers and shakers of the NSS.  These 
>> are the very people who have made caves and the NSS their lives.  These are 
>> the people, who, after donating hundreds of hours each year, and many, many 
>> dollars, want to enjoy talking with their friends.
>> 
>>  
>> Everyone.  Let’s make this clearer.  The NSS is not poor and this is our 
>> national Convention.  Go to the just published Secretary-Treasurer report at 
>> https://caves.org/nss-business/reports/1706/S-T-1706.pdf 
>>   Go to Attachment 
>> A which has all of the National Speleological Foundation (NSF) funds. 
>> 
>> We have an Account Balance with the NSF of $3,157,393.52 (as of 3/31/2017).  
>> That’s up $63,000 dollars over 3/2016, and this is after $80,000 was taken 
>> out of the NSS Endowment Fund.
>> 
>>  
>> The first time I ever heard of law enforcement being called for a fight at a 
>> Convention was 2011.  To bring this up as a reason is truly offensive.
>> 
>>  
>> The main point is mandating to Convention staffs is yet another reason why 
>> our NSS membership is going down.  Caving and Conventions were fun when we 
>> started caving.
>> 
>> A BOG member needs to amend the motion to remove the sentence “No other 
>> alcoholic beverages will be provided.“  A non-second to the motion would be 
>> better.
>> 
>>  
>> I am not on the Texas Cavers list.  Could someone please forward this 
>> response to them? 
>> 
>>  
>> Thanks,
>> 
>>  
>> Ray Keeler
>> 
>> rckee...@cox.net 
>> 623-523-1760 
>>  
>> From: nssw...@yahoogroups.com  
>> [mailto:nssw...@yahoogroups.com ] 
>> Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2017 12:53 PM
>> To: nssw...@yahoogroups.com ; 
>> texascavers@texascavers.com 
>> Subject: RE: [NSSwest] BOG Agenda Item 6-Tell your BOG to Vote NO
>> 
>>  
>>  
>> Ray, Ernie, & everyone (including Texas Cavers, since I see RD forwarded it 
>> there),
>> 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] RE: BOG Agenda Item 6-Tell your BOG to Vote NO

[C Tiderman via Texascavers]

--- Begin Message ---
Name brand sodas are supposed to be served whenever alcohol is.  Carol

  From: Phyllis Boneau 
 To: 
Cc: rckee...@cox.net; nssw...@yahoogroups.com; texascavers@texascavers.com; 
swrcav...@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 3:55 PM
 Subject: Re: [SWR CAVERS] RE: BOG Agenda Item 6-Tell your BOG to Vote NO
   
>From Wm's reply I conclude the concern is more about hard liquor.  If that is 
>the question, the motion should come right out and say no supplying hard 
>liquor instead of pussyfooting around about WHEN exactly alcoholic beverages 
>can be served instead of WHAT alcoholic beverages can be served.  (I dislike 
>beer and find a great lack of "coke" at convention gatherings.)
Did I miss a point here?
Phyllis Boneau




On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 9:16 PM, Lee H. Skinner  wrote:

  All, 
  I see no problem with people bringing their own beer to the convention, and 
if it saves the NSS over $7500, I think that's all the better.  Thanks, 
William, for your reasonable explanation.
  
  Lee Skinner
  
  
 On 6/11/2017 8:48 PM, mcvittetoe via Southwestern Cavers of the National 
Speleological Society wrote:
  
   OOPS, I messed up on that last email. I ment to say. To all of you booze 
hounds out there. I don't like paying more for conventions that use more of 
something that I do not use!!! I feel that if you want booze at the 
convention you should pay for it! 
  Marion Vittetoe said that. 
   In a message dated 6/11/2017 4:26:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
rckee...@cox.net writes: 
   
Wm,   I am ashamed of you by trying to change the topic to “we’re so poor”. 
 This is a Convention budgeting issue, not an NSS dictating issue  … and 
especially after the BOG voted at the March meeting that NSS Conventions must 
budget for a profit.   The people at the Conventions are the movers and shakers 
of the NSS.  These are the very people who have made caves and the NSS their 
lives.  These are the people, who, after donating hundreds of hours each year, 
and many, many dollars, want to enjoy talking with their friends.   Everyone.  
Let’s make this clearer.  The NSS is not poor and this is our national 
Convention.  Go to the just published Secretary-Treasurer report at 
https://caves.org/nss-business /reports/1706/S-T-1706.pdf  Go to Attachment A 
which has all of the National Speleological Foundation (NSF) funds.   We have 
an Account Balance with the NSF of $3,157,393.52 (as of 3/31/2017).  That’s up 
$63,000 dollars over 3/2016, and this is after $80,000 was taken out of the NSS 
Endowment Fund.   The first time I ever heard of law enforcement being called 
for a fight at a Convention was 2011.  To bring this up as a reason is truly 
offensive.   The main point is mandating to Convention staffs is yet another 
reason why our NSS membership is going down.  Caving and Conventions were fun 
when we started caving. A BOG member needs to amend the motion to remove the 
sentence “No other alcoholic beverages will be provided.“  A non-second to the 
motion would be better.   I am not on the Texas Cavers list.  Could someone 
please forward this response to them?     Thanks,   Ray Keeler rckee...@cox.net 
623-523-1760     From: nssw...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nssw...@yahoogroups.co 
m] 
 Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2017 12:53 PM
 To: nssw...@yahoogroups.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
 Subject: RE: [NSSwest] BOG Agenda Item 6-Tell your BOG to Vote NO       
Ray, Ernie, & everyone (including Texas Cavers, since I see RD forwarded it 
there),   Ernie is correct – the beer budget alone would have been enough to 
put several conventions in the black (instead of the red). That said, I’m not 
opposed to beer (even though I don’t drink it myself).   The questions are: -   
   When is it “enough”? Should we just 30-35 kegs (more than OTR purchases, 
and that is designated a “party  event”, yet what was being budgeted for in an 
upcoming convention) and have it every night? I believe most would say “no, a 
couple of nights is more than sufficient”. -  When a fight breaks out, 
and it has several times (to the point of the police being called), are we  
responsible since we served it? Different laws in different 
states/municipalities/campuses make this a  nightmare to avoid. -  The 
main point I have below is not that the NSS wants to ban beer (we don’t), but 
that we will limit it  to the alcoholic beverages listed. There is a trend 
coming that wants to serve “hard liquor”, and the entire EC of the NSS is 
opposed to this. Just as we don’t object to the NSS buying beer & wine, we do 
object when it comes down to liquor with much higher alcohol content. I’ll buy  
my own, thank you. -  The cost of beer alone in a proposed Convention 
budget is $7,510. This does not include wine at the NSS  Awards Banquet, which 
is another $2,475, for a total of $9,985. This amount has easily broken 
Convention’s budgets all 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] RE: BOG Agenda Item 6-Tell your BOG to Vote NO

[Lee H. Skinner via Texascavers]

All,


I see no problem with people bringing their own beer to the convention, 
and if it saves the NSS over $7500, I think that's all the better.  
Thanks, William, for your reasonable explanation.



Lee Skinner



On 6/11/2017 8:48 PM, mcvittetoe via Southwestern Cavers of the National 
Speleological Society wrote:
OOPS, I messed up on that last email. I ment to say. To all of you 
booze hounds out there. I don't like paying more for conventions that 
use more of something that I do not use!!! I feel that if 
you want booze at the convention you should pay for it!


Marion Vittetoe said that.

In a message dated 6/11/2017 4:26:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
rckee...@cox.net writes:


Wm,

I am ashamed of you by trying to change the topic to “we’re so
poor”. *This is a Convention budgeting issue, not an NSS dictating
issue  … and especially after the BOG voted at the March meeting
that NSS Conventions must budget for a profit.*

The people at the Conventions are the movers and shakers of the
NSS.  These are the very people who have made caves and the NSS
their lives.  These are the people, who, after donating hundreds
of hours each year, and many, many dollars, want to enjoy talking
with their friends.

Everyone.  Let’s make this clearer.  The NSS is not poor and this
is our national Convention.  Go to the just published
Secretary-Treasurer report at
https://caves.org/nss-business/reports/1706/S-T-1706.pdf Go to
*Attachment A* which has all of the National Speleological
Foundation (NSF) funds.

*We have an Account Balance with the NSF of **$3,157,393.52**(as
of 3/31/2017)*.  That’s up $63,000 dollars over 3/2016, and this
is *after* $80,000 was taken out of the NSS Endowment Fund.

The first time I ever heard of law enforcement being called for a
fight at a Convention was 2011.  To bring this up as a reason is
truly offensive.

The main point is mandating to Convention staffs is yet another
reason why our NSS membership is going down.  Caving and
Conventions were fun when we started caving.

A BOG member needs to *amend the motion to remove the sentence*
“*No other alcoholic beverages will be provided.*“  A non-second
to the motion would be better.

I am not on the Texas Cavers list.  Could someone please forward
this response to them?

Thanks,

Ray Keeler

rckee...@cox.net 

623-523-1760

*From:*nssw...@yahoogroups.com 
[mailto:nssw...@yahoogroups.com ]
*Sent:* Sunday, June 11, 2017 12:53 PM
*To:* nssw...@yahoogroups.com ;
texascavers@texascavers.com 
*Subject:* RE: [NSSwest] BOG Agenda Item 6-Tell your BOG to Vote NO

Ray, Ernie, & everyone (including Texas Cavers, since I see RD
forwarded it there),

Ernie is correct – the beer budget alone would have been enough to
put several conventions in the black (instead of the red). That
said, I’m not opposed to beer (even though I don’t drink it myself).

The questions are:

-When is it “enough”? Should we just 30-35 kegs (more than OTR
purchases, and that is designated a “party event”, yet what was
being budgeted for in an upcoming convention) and have it every
night? I believe most would say “no, a couple of nights is more
than sufficient”.

-When a fight breaks out, and it has several times (to the point
of the police being called), are we responsible since we served
it? Different laws in different states/municipalities/campuses
make this a nightmare to avoid.

-The main point I have below is not that the NSS wants to ban beer
(we don’t), but that we will limit it to the alcoholic beverages
listed. There is a trend coming that wants to serve “hard liquor”,
and the entire EC of the NSS is opposed to this. Just as we don’t
object to the NSS buying beer & wine, we do object when it comes
down to liquor with much higher alcohol content. I’ll buy my own,
thank you.

-The cost of beer alone in a proposed Convention budget is $7,510.
This does not include wine at the NSS Awards Banquet, which is
another $2,475, for a total of $9,985. This amount has easily
broken Convention’s budgets all by itself. Part of 2018’s “cost
savings” is a proposed $200 pre-reg ($250 at the door)
registration, and if you want a guidebook that’s extra.

So yes, buy extra and truck around the leftovers the next day and
fill everyone’s pitchers – that’s a really great way to continue
to bleed your Society in a form we can’t control. If we don’t set
a limit, each new Convention points out the (often large) holes we
have in how to host a convention.

I would hope that everyone will instead encourage the Directors to
be