Re: [Texascavers] Devil's Sinkhole R.I.P.
Bill, in case you didn't notice, landowner attitudes have changed dramatically since the 1950's. Rather than speculate, why don't you consider the access situation on other properties in the area and compare them to the gilded age of caving? Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com On Friday, September 12, 2014 9:57 PM, Mixon Bill via Texascavers texascavers@texascavers.com wrote: While Gluesenkamp won't remember it, Devil's Sinkhole did just fine without management, which always seems to mean managing cavers. And access was open even to scientists, although that cuts no mustard with me. Scientists are not a privileged class of people, and their claim to a resource is no more important than anybody else's. This includes archaeologists, paleontologists, geologists, and biologists. (And the physicists I used to work with, too, of course. But at least physicists don't generally claim special or exclusive access to caves.) A new private owner _might_ have closed the cave, but at least private owners eventually sell or die. A government owner was certain to severely restrict it, and governments, at least outside the Middle East, tend to live longer than people. Governments are suckers for special interests more than most private owners are--witness the difference in access between government-owned and privately owned caves in the southeastern US these days. They also, for some reason, tend to worry more about allowing people to hurt themselves. Cavers can and have foolishly promoted government acquisition or management of a cave as a protection measure only to find themselves locked out. I don't know that cavers had anything to do with the state's buying Devil's Sinkhole. I'd like to think not. -- Mixon Do you really think it is weakness to yield to temptation? There are terrible temptations that require strength and courage to yield to. You may reply to the address this message (unless it's a TexasCavers list post) came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: a...@mexicancaves.org or sa...@mexicancaves.org ___ Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/ http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers___ Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/ http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
Re: [Texascavers] Devil's Sinkhole R.I.P.
Andy and Bill, Andy, you are correct in that due to liability exposure and those who disrespect the land and landowners, in most cases, what was, ain't no mo. Fritz Holt fritz...@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone On Sep 16, 2014, at 8:10 AM, Andy Gluesenkamp via Texascavers texascavers@texascavers.com wrote: Bill, in case you didn't notice, landowner attitudes have changed dramatically since the 1950's. Rather than speculate, why don't you consider the access situation on other properties in the area and compare them to the gilded age of caving? Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com On Friday, September 12, 2014 9:57 PM, Mixon Bill via Texascavers texascavers@texascavers.com wrote: While Gluesenkamp won't remember it, Devil's Sinkhole did just fine without management, which always seems to mean managing cavers. And access was open even to scientists, although that cuts no mustard with me. Scientists are not a privileged class of people, and their claim to a resource is no more important than anybody else's. This includes archaeologists, paleontologists, geologists, and biologists. (And the physicists I used to work with, too, of course. But at least physicists don't generally claim special or exclusive access to caves.) A new private owner _might_ have closed the cave, but at least private owners eventually sell or die. A government owner was certain to severely restrict it, and governments, at least outside the Middle East, tend to live longer than people. Governments are suckers for special interests more than most private owners are--witness the difference in access between government-owned and privately owned caves in the southeastern US these days. They also, for some reason, tend to worry more about allowing people to hurt themselves. Cavers can and have foolishly promoted government acquisition or management of a cave as a protection measure only to find themselves locked out. I don't know that cavers had anything to do with the state's buying Devil's Sinkhole. I'd like to think not. -- Mixon Do you really think it is weakness to yield to temptation? There are terrible temptations that require strength and courage to yield to. You may reply to the address this message (unless it's a TexasCavers list post) came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: a...@mexicancaves.org or sa...@mexicancaves.org ___ Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/ http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers ___ Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/ http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers ___ Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/ http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
Re: [Texascavers] Devil's Sinkhole R.I.P.
Yes, the sinkhole did just fine without management when owned by rancher brothers. They gave me and two buddies permission to enter it in the summer of 1955. We had an exciting trip exploring the cave after climbing down the existent 165 foot steel cable ladder which terminated about 15 feet down the slope from the top of the breakdown. I took a picture of the ladder from the bottom which is similar to the one taken by Jimmy Walker of the same ladder In 1952. Jimmy's picture with Cavers on rope is in Carl Kunath's 50 Years Of Texas Caving. I treasure mine and have it framed. More nostalgia from some of the best times of my life. Fritz Holt fritz...@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone On Sep 12, 2014, at 9:57 PM, Mixon Bill via Texascavers texascavers@texascavers.com wrote: While Gluesenkamp won't remember it, Devil's Sinkhole did just fine without management, which always seems to mean managing cavers. And access was open even to scientists, although that cuts no mustard with me. Scientists are not a privileged class of people, and their claim to a resource is no more important than anybody else's. This includes archaeologists, paleontologists, geologists, and biologists. (And the physicists I used to work with, too, of course. But at least physicists don't generally claim special or exclusive access to caves.) A new private owner _might_ have closed the cave, but at least private owners eventually sell or die. A government owner was certain to severely restrict it, and governments, at least outside the Middle East, tend to live longer than people. Governments are suckers for special interests more than most private owners are--witness the difference in access between government-owned and privately owned caves in the southeastern US these days. They also, for some reason, tend to worry more about allowing people to hurt themselves. Cavers can and have foolishly promoted government acquisition or management of a cave as a protection measure only to find themselves locked out. I don't know that cavers had anything to do with the state's buying Devil's Sinkhole. I'd like to think not. -- Mixon Do you really think it is weakness to yield to temptation? There are terrible temptations that require strength and courage to yield to. You may reply to the address this message (unless it's a TexasCavers list post) came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: a...@mexicancaves.org or sa...@mexicancaves.org ___ Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/ http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers ___ Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/ http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
