[tw] Re: Thoughts from the Obvious Side ...

[TonyM]

Josiah,

As in,my earler responce having demonstrations is helpful, and they tend to be 
complete solutions which is great but most users especialy non expert users 
would I expect have to do a lot to seperate thier own data and document the 
details of their setup before making them public. Perhaps this means a lot of 
implementations go dark, never to be seen. Most of my wikis evolved.

I hope to collect and create building blocks that get people 90% of the way. 
This may reduce the effort to make shareable solutions.

One way to raise the visibility of different inmplimentations is on a hangout 
or short videos of how people are using tiddlywiki. Perhaps we should invite 
users to submitt max 10 miniute video on examples of how they use tiddlywiki.

regards
tony

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[tw] Re: Thoughts from the Obvious Side ...

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Lost Admin

  Where is your PayPal?

Josiah

Abraham Samma wrote:
>
> ...
>> I personally think TW5 is still on a journey of self discovery and we 
>> need to keep at it as a community in order for something wonderful to come 
>> out of it.
>>
>
Lost Admin wrote: 

> I would like to volunteer to drive TW5 around the country in a classic VW 
> camper on this journey of self-discovery. I always wanted to do that but 
> never did. All I need is sufficient funding.
>

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[tw] Re: Thoughts from the Obvious Side ...

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Abraham

Very interesting reply. You get where I am coming from. One thing stood out 
for me ...

Abraham Samma wrote:
>
> ... To me, TW5 looks more like a software framework solution in want of a 
> problem. 
>

That is a very pertinent observation IMO. 

I think the truth is that resultant apps DO exist but they are largely NOT 
VISIBLE. There is LITTLE VALUE placed on showing final works ATM. So at the 
community level I hope that, in time, we better understand the need to 
"show & tell" and value it. 

IMO potential new users need to be able to view many, many finished 
fully-functioning TW to be able to grasp what it can do. I'm convinced they 
are not idiots. Rather, they need to SEE something COMPLETE running that 
mirrors their interest to be able to find their next steps.  

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw] Re: Thoughts from the Obvious Side ...

[Lost Admin]

On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 12:20:57 PM UTC-4, Abraham Samma wrote:
>
> ...
> I personally think TW5 is still on a journey of self discovery and we need 
> to keep at it as a community in order for something wonderful to come out 
> of it.
>

I would like to volunteer to drive TW5 around the country in a classic VW 
camper on this journey of self-discovery. I always wanted to do that but 
never did. All I need is sufficient funding.

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Re: [tw] Re: Thoughts from the Obvious Side ...

[Eneko Gotzon]

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 6:35 PM, @TiddlyTweeter 
wrote:

> I was wanting to focus attention on final *usage aims*.
>

​+1​

​I do not have any right to ask for something ​but, please, keep TW as
simple, stable, secure & lasting as possible.

Great Code Masters: ​Thank you so much!

Well done work &​ valuable service deserves to be fairly paid.

-- 
*Eneko Gotzon Ares*
*Izan, egon, egin*
*Donostia – EH, Baskonia, NA Oso*
*Tf *
*(+34) 943 273 431 - (+34) 639 626 858*
*——Mezu hau eta berari atxikitako agiri oro isilpeko dira
eta soilik hartzaileari zuzentzen zaizkie. Mezu hau hutsegitez jasoz gero
berau ezabatzea eskatzen da eta igorleari horren berri ematea eskertuko
litzake. Baimen agerikorik gabe debekatuta dago mezu honen edota bere
edukinen edozein erabilera edo hedatzea, bai osoki zein zatiz. Mezu
elektronikoak andea daitezke; mezu hau andeaturik, aldaturik edota aizun
balego Eneko Gotzon Aresek edota bere ordezkariek uko egiten diote
edonolako ardurei.*

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[tw] Re: Thoughts from the Obvious Side ...

[TonyM]

Josiah,

You last post was clear and I "get it", I understand the need to TiddlyWiki 
to have a more obvious usage, the new users are not seeing tiddlywiki at 
its potential best, and it is hard for them to get the vision shared by 
enthusiasts.

I am sure I don't have the full answer but can I suggest you reread my last 
post and imagine the approach I am suggesting, although I have not detiled 
all the possibilities.

To be clear, I am trying to answer your Question, and if it is not, 
consider if this set of ideas is still the answer :)

I agree the answers are bleeding obvious, lets make the required features 
bleeding obvious.

As I say "If you can see what I am doing here, is building in features that 
help me achieve a lot through an intuitive addition to tiddlywiki to 
turbocharge the development of existing and future tiddlywikis"

I believe the gap you are seeking, the missing piece(s) to fill, is not in 
the core, or in finished examples, but in features that help expose to the 
imagination what can be done, and make this, what can be done, easier. I do 
not believe another SHOWCASE is necessary if it can only be created by a 
developer.

I will give another example "Tags"

Tagging tiddlers is a key feature of tiddlywiki, and even drives its whole 
structure, however we do little to illustrate what tags can be used for by 
the end user, and when we do those features can only be achieved with 
plugins and code so there is a barrier to realising the potential of tags, 
people will get there eventually, but only if they do not abandon 
tiddlywiki first.

Here is an example of what is difficult for new and enthusiast alike to 
discover easily; its used to illustrate my point below.

Tags can

be used like tags in other systems
be uses as categories
build lists
indicate membership
show status
capture hierarchies
capture network relationships
alter appearance, or hide and display content
use color in tags and tiddlers
be sorted, in lists and within tag line
be documented in a tiddler of the same name
be managed as a list within a field
be dragged and dropped to move
and more

The point is using tags to do the above, is what the user wants to learn 
and do, and it is not straightforward to do these things. Needing to resort 
to plugins or particular editions is overkill when you are learning.

I believe we need to fill this gap with techniques and helpers to maker 
these things obvious and easy.

This is a solution for a Specific Example to illustrate, Using tags to 
indicate status, requires something like cycletags, which allows you to 
step through a set of statuses eg; "new wip completed" removing the last 
when assigning the next. Why cant we create a tag/tiddler called status and 
use new here to create "new wip and completed" tiddlers tagged with status, 
then set a value on status that says when used as a tag allow an OR 
selection of tagged tiddlers. This feature with an AND selection could 
allow tagging with one or more tags.

Simple problems are solved quickly and all that remains are new and 
difficult problems. I think this problem is haunting us because the answer 
lies between the core and plugins yet needs to answer the needs of the user.

I am ready to proceed.
Tony

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[tw] Re: Thoughts from the Obvious Side ...

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao TonyM

My last post was probably not as clear as it could have been. I was really 
interested in it in FINAL outcomes. That is nothing to do with code and 
nothing directly to do with neat procedures people invented in TW (even 
though silently enabling). 

I was wanting to focus attention on final *usage aims*. Like "Writing 
Screenplays", "Posting Tweets" or "Documenting Grannie's History". In other 
words WHAT one uses TiddlyWiki FOR.

My point was that sometimes here we overlook the bleeding obvious. Though I 
have NO "should" about what folk do, I just think that a lot of the time 
here we make it hard for FINAL end-users to grasp how much is available 
that will more than adequately fit their limited, doable utilitarian needs.

I'm not sure what the solution is. I think there is a MISSING PIECE. 
Possibly a better SHOWCASE of complete wikis so more people can directly 
see what can be done? Not sure?

Best wishes
Josiah

TonyM wrote:
>
> Perhaps you did not notice yet but on your comment;
>
> *So much discussion here is on "technical means" not "final aims/ends" I 
> think we in in danger of excluding some kinds of user who is looking at TW 
> to achieve exactly that issue about posterity.*
>
> I some ways this is my key focus,
>
 

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[tw] Re: Thoughts from the Obvious Side ...

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mark S., Dave G. & Birthe

You all woke me up that you care about the posterity issue.

Just a comment: that if we don't sometimes talk about the mechanics of how 
to do it and when--the detailed issues "late documenters" face then nobody 
knows its in our minds. Actual grannie has actual problems that if can 
document better can help a lot. TW use is not in an abstract void--its got 
to have some kind of connection to viable material practice to function. 

So much discussion here is on "technical means" not "final aims/ends" I 
think we in in danger of excluding some kinds of user who is looking at TW 
to achieve exactly that issue about posterity.

Maybe there should be a "Posterity Methods Section?" somewhere?

Just thoughts
Josiah  

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[tw] Re: Thoughts from the Obvious Side ...

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Dave

It means something like: "a dying person is often not in a state to be able 
to handle anything not straightforward."

j x

On Friday, 13 October 2017 03:33:40 UTC+2, Dave Gifford - 
http://www.giffmex.org/ wrote:
>
> ???
>
> On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 10:49:52 AM UTC-4, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> The Grandma Problem is in the last weeks she is not able to asses the 
>> state of the internet.
>>
>> J.
>>
>> On Thursday, 12 October 2017 16:39:48 UTC+2, Mark S. wrote:
>>>
>>> I've thought about this a bit. The thing is, Elements, AcdSee, DigiKam,  
>>> have been designed from the ground up for this sort of task, and can access 
>>> information that browser-based solutions can't (like image meta data).
>>>
>>> It's so confusing. Honestly, I think grandma should post them herself.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 6:50:32 AM UTC-7, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

 Just a comment that many people here LIKE programming and can help get 
 grannie's memoires online before she snuffs it. 

 WHERE are the addresses of her finale?

 x

>>>
>>>

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[tw] Re: Thoughts from the Obvious Side ...

[Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/]

???

On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 10:49:52 AM UTC-4, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> The Grandma Problem is in the last weeks she is not able to asses the 
> state of the internet.
>
> J.
>
> On Thursday, 12 October 2017 16:39:48 UTC+2, Mark S. wrote:
>>
>> I've thought about this a bit. The thing is, Elements, AcdSee, DigiKam,  
>> have been designed from the ground up for this sort of task, and can access 
>> information that browser-based solutions can't (like image meta data).
>>
>> It's so confusing. Honestly, I think grandma should post them herself.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 6:50:32 AM UTC-7, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>>
>>> Just a comment that many people here LIKE programming and can help get 
>>> grannie's memoires online before she snuffs it. 
>>>
>>> WHERE are the addresses of her finale?
>>>
>>> x
>>>
>>
>>

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[tw] Re: Thoughts from the Obvious Side ...

[@TiddlyTweeter]

The Grandma Problem is in the last weeks she is not able to asses the state 
of the internet.

J.

On Thursday, 12 October 2017 16:39:48 UTC+2, Mark S. wrote:
>
> I've thought about this a bit. The thing is, Elements, AcdSee, DigiKam,  
> have been designed from the ground up for this sort of task, and can access 
> information that browser-based solutions can't (like image meta data).
>
> It's so confusing. Honestly, I think grandma should post them herself.
>
> Mark
>
> On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 6:50:32 AM UTC-7, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> Just a comment that many people here LIKE programming and can help get 
>> grannie's memoires online before she snuffs it. 
>>
>> WHERE are the addresses of her finale?
>>
>> x
>>
>
>

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